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Egwene, Lying to World Leaders


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But Egwene didn't give him that opportunity. She wouldn't even allow the meeting be Sealed to the Hall because "they need to see me confront him" (and note that it was confront, not "help" or "mend relations"). Why should he reveal his plans in front of dozens of AS who might be Black Ajah for all he knows? If Egwene ends up looking like a fool at Merrilor, she's only got herself to blame.

 

Are you being sarcastic? She gave him every opportunity.

 

ToM

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

"That is why I cam to you. To let you plan."

He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry

 

Even people who dislike Egwene don't dispute that Rand did this on purpose to get this reaction. He went into the meeting knowing he would not tell her anything, period.

 

Sleepinghour has a point though. Egwene decided to confront Rand rather than meet him personally. There really wasn't any need for that. She did give Rand the possibility to speak to her afterwards though. But it may be that at that point Rand no longer trusted her. He did ask Nyneave later on to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him.

 

Just because Rand expected Egwene to do this dosesn't absolve Egwene of criticism. He expected her to betray him, and she did. He just took advantage of this by having enough foresight to see what she would do.

 

Questioning the actions of someone that could destroy the world, that up until shortly before was totally insane, is betraying him? :rolleyes:

 

Rand has no plan. By is own words he doesn't know how to seal the bore and he is hoping that Min finds a way. EVERYONE should be questioning him.

 

Questioning yes, opposing however is not (yet) necessary. And people don't really know that he plans to go ahead without a plan.

 

Even if Rand and Egwene behaved equally stupidly, I would still give more trust to Rand making the right decisions. Tailor-made talents and experience in this whole "sealing evil deities business" counts for something. I wouldn't pick Rand when dealing with TAR or the Aes Sedai politics, I wouldn't pick Egwene when confronting the DO.

 

Oh I agree, I just can't believe the people who say "how dare she question him?" and "she betrayed him" are so quick to forget how bad things got recently when Rand refused to listen to anyone. Should he just be some omnipotent tyrant that never has any of his actions questioned? We are talking about breaking the seals on the DOs prison.

 

Well Egwene doesn't know how bad Rand got. The last time she saw him was in LoC, and he was hardly in a very bad state then.

 

 

Let's please remember that the people in the story haven't read the story. They haven't been able to see inside the heads of many dozens of POVs. There's a lot of things they don't know even about people close to them. They don't have vast archives of quotes from the author of the story and world they live in, and they all act and think as if this wasn't a fantasy novel written for them.

 

Rand has a reputation as being eccentric, if not outright insane. A moment of apparent lucidity does not a sane man make by any means. Let's also remember that there are more than one or two possibilities. Rand can fail in any number of ways. Rand can succeed in any number of ways. He could leave the world a place of happy rainbows and unicorns or he could leave it torn apart. He very nearly destroyed the world on his own. That was a real threat within the world, he wasn't destined to not do it. We've had it mentioned often enough that just because something is prophesied doesn't mean it has to happen, that Rand can fail at fulfilling the prophecies. Rand is not a god nor a demi-god. Rand has no plan as to what to do when he breaks the seals. He made no argument and has revealed to Min that he has none. Egwene has also had a prophetic dream that demonstrates this. Opposing the breaking of the seals when there is no plan as to what to do after they're broken is not wrong. Egwene does not need a different way of doing things, as Rand doesn't even have a way of doing things. He's stated that he is going to destroy the seals that limit the Dark One's ability to touch the world and he's got nothing beyond that. It is rational, common sense to oppose such things strongly, at least until a plan is established. Let's also remember that the Dragon is not infallible. His original plan to seal away the Dark One was horribly flawed. I give him credit for earning a brief reprieve, but it left the Dark One able to still touch the world, the Bore still in existence, saidin tainted, the world broken, civilization demolished and likely hundreds of millions, if not billions, of lives destroyed and killed. Let's not forget that he didn't even get to do his whole plan. If his plan was not unanimously opposed by the women Aes Sedai it would have left both saidin AND saidar tainted and the world in an even worse state. Therefore people saying that "Rand's the mother****ing Dragon who does Egwene think she is daring to oppose him she should just do what he says he's the one destined to save the world" have an in-world example of why that is NOT a good idea, as it would have left the world in a far worse state, both for the breaking and for when the Seals weakened and no sane channelers lived and nobody existed who could have hunted down mad men and women wielding deadly magic. Let's also remember that there was a prophecy stating that the world would be better off without the Dragon than with 'Dark Rand', and statements from Jordan pointing out that the world has gotten through this before without the Dragon or even with a Dragon turned to the Shadow. Let's remember that Rand isn't the only hope for the world, he's 'just' a Hero spun out and made ta'veren to make corrections to the weaving of the Pattern, he's a calculated tool/program put into the world by an incredible 'supercomputer'; that while he's incredibly valuable to the health of the world he's not 100% necessary, given statements by Jordan on past cycles.

 

Egwene is not in the wrong to oppose Rand's plan. It's a very brash decision and it's a gamble with no plan for after. Things may end up working out in his favor, but there's no guarantee of that for the people in this world, the Dragon is capable of costly mistakes and poor decisions in regards to the fate of the world and that opposition to his plans in the past has in fact kept it safer than it would have been if his plans had been carried out as he wished. There's only a month between his statement to Egwene and when he wants to break the seals. That's not a lot of time at all.

 

Now, as for whether or not Egwene is a horrible, dreadful person for not giving full disclosure is a question with no definitive answer, and different philosophers will likely give you different answers given the decisions she's facing.

 

Egwene does not know he may go ahead without a plan. She has never mentioned it to anyone. The only reason she has ever given for opposing Rand is that the seals must stay intact. No mention of Rand's lack of a plan has ever been made. It is not her reason for opposing him.

 

And Rand has had more than a moment of lucidity. He's been sane for about a month now, and Nyneave should have told Egwene that. At the very least there's considerable doubt at this point about whether or not he is insane.

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Say the Seanchan do attack Tear while the army is away. What does Egwene tell Darlin, when he confronts her with the fact that she told him that Tear was safe from them, and the fact that she failed to tell him the Seanchan probably had travelling?
She might say "it's a good job I got you and your army safely out of Tear before the Seanchan came - you couldn't have defended against that, and after TG the WT will assist you in freeing tear from Seanchan rule."

 

Ha! I suppose she could say that. However, it's not the reason for which Egwene is asking him to come to the FoM. And I very highly doubt that Darlin will thank Egwene for costing him the chance to defend his nation, in order for his army to be saved. Still, if Darlin doesn't catch that Egwene is lying about why she lied when she said that the Seanchan were not a danger to Tear, then she may get away with it. I sort of doubt the Seanchan will attack Tear anyway.

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Just because the motives weren't clarified in TOM doesn't mean you can't piece together very good reasons why Egwene is doing what she's doing (though I think better clarification by the author would have been nice). There are many things in this series where inference is necessary to properly understand motives. As for Rand's lucidity, again, he has a far longer reputation of being touched by madness (via the taint). Without taking more time to sit down with Rand and rationalize his actions and thoughts, Egwene has every right to remain skeptical. Nynaeve could speak of the sudden change in his demeanor (though sudden changes seems more bipolar than anything), but she's also seen how deeply the taint has/had infected his mind. Egwene has also had a prophetic dream in relation to this whole event, so yes, the lack of a good rationalization for insane actions by a man with a mad reputation, a prophetic dream on the subject, and no explanation from people close to Rand as to what he's planning is a pretty good indication to doubt Rand on this. And doubting and opposing the Dragon is not inherently wrong, as demonstrated by the women's opposition to Lews Therin's plans, which saved the world from a far worse fate in the immediate future and left channeling intact for the Last Battle.

 

I'm not praising Egwene's handling of the issue at this point, but she's not in a morally wrong position to be in opposition to him on this given the circumstances. It seems like frustration with Egwene's character and her daring to be in opposition to the lead character on an issue (and we've been lucky enough to get dozens of POVs and see inside the head of him and see him from sides no living person ever would, and have benefited from outsider comments on the mechanics/metaphysics of the world) is combining to create prejudiced opinions on the matter.

Edited by Agitel
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I would much rather trust someone that the Creator himself, through the wheel, created to take care of the job of dealing with the Dark One. The Amrylin is not around to fight the Dark One himself. Nor are the Asha'man. Noone was created for the soul purpose to fight the Dark One except Rand. I think Rand/Lews Therin both had a very good idea on how to seal the bore completely but, as Lews Therin states, the women would not help him. He needs both Saidan and Saidar to do the job, but the first time around the women would not assist in the fight.

 

Lews Therin's plan was flawed. Robert Jordan himself has stated that if the women had participated in LT's plan it would have left saidar tainted as well. The Dragon isn't infallible or destined to come up with the best or right solution on his own.

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i suspect rand knew what he was doing, and what he was getting into when he told her that he was going to break the seals. he likely wants as many as possible to hear his words at the f.o.m. event.

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I would much rather trust someone that the Creator himself, through the wheel, created to take care of the job of dealing with the Dark One. The Amrylin is not around to fight the Dark One himself. Nor are the Asha'man. Noone was created for the soul purpose to fight the Dark One except Rand. I think Rand/Lews Therin both had a very good idea on how to seal the bore completely but, as Lews Therin states, the women would not help him. He needs both Saidan and Saidar to do the job, but the first time around the women would not assist in the fight.

 

The fact is the DR is not infallible, LTT proved this with a flawed plan that caused the taint. It had nothing to do with the women not assisting in the sealing, RJ said it was a lucky thing they didn't or else Saidar would have been tainted as well.

 

His actions deserve to be questioned until he lays out a reasonable course of action. Breaking the seals and then winging it doesn't really cut it. The only way Egwene and the AS could have effectively planned is if Rand had outlined his knowledge and set them to the task with Min. For whatever reason, he wanted it to go down like this.

 

ToM

Light knows I don't need to do anything else to make Egwene angry with me . . . ."

 

I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon. Time. We don't have time! I will get help to Lan, I vow it to you, but right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

 

I find the "must prepare to face" fairly telling. He knows they will be in conflict based on the way he antagonized her in their first meeting. We just don't know why he wants it this way.

Edited by Suttree
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Just because the motives weren't clarified in TOM doesn't mean you can't piece together very good reasons why Egwene is doing what she's doing (though I think better clarification by the author would have been nice). There are many things in this series where inference is necessary to properly understand motives.

 

I think her motives for opposing him were perfectly clarified in ToM. There is no need to piece anything together.

 

In her meeting with Rand:

 

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

 

With the Wise Ones:

 

"He spoke powerfully," Egwene said, "but his words were those of madness. He said he is going to break the seals on the Dark One's prison."

 

With Nyneave and Elayne:

 

"You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releasing him upon the world."

 

"Yes but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

 

Also, in Darlin's letter:

 

The destuction of the seals is not something we should undertake without careful discussion

 

Again, only the breaking of the seals is mentioned.

 

Elayne, meeting with Perrin:

 

"He says he going to break the remaining seals of the Dark One's prison," Elayne said frowing. "We'll need to stop him, of course. Foolish plan."

 

Once again, no mention of Rand lacking a plan on what to do after the seals are broken, and Elayne gets all her information from Egwene.

 

Egwene talking with Gawyn:

 

"Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does at least. Perhaps that's why he told me-so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it."

 

And once more no mention of a lack of a plan. Just the breaking of the seals.

 

Not once in all those meetings, nor anywhere else in the book has Egwene shown concern about him breaking the seals without a plan. In fact, the second quote from her meeting with Elayne and Nyneave shows that she doesn't doubt that he can seal away the Dark One, only the necessity to break the seals in order to do it. Why should she be worried about this in the first place? He told her he didn't have all the answers yet (and she did not react to this), and then told her to meet in at the FoM in a month. Why would she think that he would break the seals without all the answers. It would be far more logical for her to assume that he believes he will have the answers by then, which is why he is giving himself a month's time. He never told her, or even hinted, that he would break the seals without a plan. And, again, not once throughout the book did she mention his lack of a plan. Not. Once.

 

As for Rand's lucidity, again, he has a far longer reputation of being touched by madness (via the taint). Without taking more time to sit down with Rand and rationalize his actions and thoughts, Egwene has every right to remain skeptical. Nynaeve could speak of the sudden change in his demeanor (though sudden changes seems more bipolar than anything), but she's also seen how deeply the taint has/had infected his mind. Egwene has also had a prophetic dream in relation to this whole event, so yes, the lack of a good rationalization for insane actions by a man with a mad reputation, a prophetic dream on the subject, and no explanation from people close to Rand as to what he's planning is a pretty good indication to doubt Rand on this.

 

Of course she should be skeptical about whether or not he is sane. But she shouldn't disregard the possibility that he is sane and that he knows what he's doing. The fact that she doesn't know for sure, means that any decision, whether to oppose or to support would be imprudent. It would be jumping the gun. There is no need to make the decision yet. He told her he would talk to her at the FoM, and she'll be able to decide whether he is sane or not, and whether the breaking of the seals is necessary or not, at that time. But now she's already made it known that she opposes him. Which means one is going to be right, and one is going to be wrong. And there's little chance she's going to be right here.

 

 

And doubting and opposing the Dragon is not inherently wrong, as demonstrated by the women's opposition to Lews Therin's plans, which saved the world from a far worse fate in the immediate future and left channeling intact for the Last Battle.

 

It definitely isn't, but there's a big difference between those women's opposition to LTT and Egwene's opposition to Rand. Those women made the decision to oppose him, with the full knowledge of what his plan was, of it's advantages and risks, and decided to oppose it. Egwene, in comparison, knows pretty much nothing of why Rand wishes to act as he does.

 

I'm not praising Egwene's handling of the issue at this point, but she's not in a morally wrong position to be in opposition to him on this given the circumstances.

 

I don't think it's morally wrong. It definitely isn't wrong to oppose the Dragon, as long as you have a good reason to be doing so. I simply think she isn't showing enough caution, or openess of mind. Opposing him after first meeting with him is understable. Opposing him after hearing from the Wise One's and Nyneave about Rand, and in light of the fact that not everybody is convinced that he needs to be opposed, though she may not know that, is failing to consider all possible options.

Edited by Master Ablar
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I find the "must prepare to face" fairly telling. He knows they will be in conflict based on the way he antagonized her in their first meeting. We just don't know why he wants it this way.

 

I don't think he does want it. He later tells Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him. He just expects Egwene to oppose him.

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I find the "must prepare to face" fairly telling. He knows they will be in conflict based on the way he antagonized her in their first meeting. We just don't know why he wants it this way.

 

I don't think he does want it. He later tells Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him. He just expects Egwene to oppose him.

 

You seriously think he didn't want her to oppose him? If that was the case why would he purposely "pour hot oil" into the WT. If he was trying to get her help in the matter then you must admit he went about it in the worst possible way.

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I find the "must prepare to face" fairly telling. He knows they will be in conflict based on the way he antagonized her in their first meeting. We just don't know why he wants it this way.

 

I don't think he does want it. He later tells Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to oppose him. He just expects Egwene to oppose him.

 

You seriously think he didn't want her to oppose him? If that was the case why would he purposely "pour hot oil" into the WT. If he was trying to get her help in the matter then you must admit he went about it in the worst possible way.

 

His actions are contradicting. First, he admitedly seems to do his best to make them oppose him, and then he tells Nyneave to try to convince Egwene not to oppose him. Which makes me think that it's not Egwene's opposition itself that he was looking for, but rather a side effect of her opposition. And so far the only thing I can think of is the gathering of the armies. Or to make the WT look bad I suppose. If he wasn't looking for a side effect, then perhaps he simply thought that her opposition was inevitable.

Edited by Master Ablar
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His actions are contradicting. First, he admitedly seems to do his best to make them oppose him, and then he tells Nyneave to try to convince Egwene not to oppose him. Which makes me think that it's not Egwene's opposition itself that he was looking for, but rather a side effect of her opposition. And so far the only thing I can think of is the gathering of the armies. Or to make the WT look bad I suppose. If he wasn't looking for a side effect, then perhaps he simply thought that her opposition was inevitable.

 

Given her actions and attitude towards him since tSR, I think he would be justified in assuming that. :smile:

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His actions are contradicting. First, he admitedly seems to do his best to make them oppose him, and then he tells Nyneave to try to convince Egwene not to oppose him. Which makes me think that it's not Egwene's opposition itself that he was looking for, but rather a side effect of her opposition. And so far the only thing I can think of is the gathering of the armies. Or to make the WT look bad I suppose. If he wasn't looking for a side effect, then perhaps he simply thought that her opposition was inevitable.

 

Given her actions and attitude towards him since tSR, I think he would be justified in assuming that. :smile:

 

Yeah sure...show up and give a comprehensive explanation as to why it must be done. Then go on to lay out the theories you have and ask for help researching them from the greatest repository of learning in the world. That would just go over terribly I'm sure. :rolleyes:

 

Given the circumstances it is very hard for me to think that Rand didn't antagonize her on purpose. He needed that gathering at the FoM for some reason. Guess we will find out why in aMoL.

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None of the reasons you posted Master Ablar contradict what I wrote, nor do I think they are the be all, end all of her reasoning. But Rand did walk in speaking madness. She has had a prophecy that demonstrates he doesn't seem to have any plan, nor has he presented one. He also refused to give her any details. Egwene doesn't deserve criticism for opposing him in this, other than "well this is a story and Rand's the main character and we know it's going to work out Rand's way". Or, at the very least, she doesn't deserve any more criticism (she probably deserves less criticism) than Rand should get on this issue. Yet I always see "oh well Rand has some blame" and then it's swept under the rug, because we as readers intuitively assume "well it's mother****ing Rand and he's the dragon and the main character". It's only with Egwene that people seem to get passionately critical, yet her response is more rational than Rand's proposal at the moment, as we know Rand has no plan. Yet again, fans seem to sweep aside blame for Rand and then get so incredibly passionate in their criticism/dislike/hate of Egwene on the issue. If Rand was getting equal criticism than I could probably take this criticism of Egwene more seriously and not just a result of Egwene-hate prejudice.

Edited by Agitel
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Hrm, Egwene seems to have more supporters than detractors in this now. Obviously I am on team Suttree, even if I've been too busy to post much recently.

 

I will reiterate though, the Wise Ones agree with Egwene. Yes they thought he was sane... before Egwene told them what he planned to do. While I don't think they are questioning his sanity now, I also don't think Egwene would start questioning her assumptions about him given that the Wise Ones obviously became worried after Egwene explained why she was worried. Therefore, it would look to her like she had convinced them something was wrong. That would actually reinforce her opinion, despite what they had said previously.

 

Consider it this way. The Wise Ones, who were sure he was sane, are worried about the plan. So Egwene, who has spent next-to-no time with Rand, and thinks he might be insane, would obviously be far more worried than even they are. Insanity is only one possible reason to doubt him. If Egwene did believe Nynaeve, that doesn't mean she'd then agree with the plan. Rand can still be wrong.

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None of the reasons you posted Master Ablar contradict what I wrote, nor do I think they are the be all, end all of her reasoning. But Rand did walk in speaking madness. She has had a prophecy that demonstrates he doesn't seem to have any plan, nor has he presented one. He also refused to give her any details.

 

So Egwene just forgot to mention to everyone what her main reason for opposing Rand was? Really?

 

And she has not had a prophecy that said he did not have a plan. She had a dream that she interpeted to mean that he would break the seals. No mention of a lack of a plan was made by Egwene. He didn't give her details, but he said would talk with her at the FoM.

 

Egwene doesn't deserve criticism for opposing him in this,

 

She deserves to be called out on something if she makes a mistake. If people are passionate about it, it's because it's on a subject (Rand and Aes Sedai cooperation, as well as the subject of Egwene), which is particularly irritating.

 

other than "well this is a story and Rand's the main character and we know it's going to work out Rand's way".

 

I never criticized her for this.

 

Or, at the very least, she doesn't deserve any more criticism (she probably deserves less criticism) than Rand should get on this issue. Yet I always see "oh well Rand has some blame" and then it's swept under the rug, because we as readers intuitively assume "well it's mother****ing Rand and he's the dragon and the main character". It's only with Egwene that people seem to get passionately critical, yet her response is more rational than Rand's proposal at the moment, as we know Rand has no plan. Yet again, fans seem to sweep aside blame for Rand and then get so incredibly passionate in their criticism/dislike/hate of Egwene on the issue. If Rand was getting equal criticism than I could probably take this criticism of Egwene more seriously and not just a result of Egwene-hate prejudice.

 

I won't speak for others, but the reason why I haven't criticized Rand on this subject, is simply because we didn't get any of his PoV's in ToM except for the epilogue, which revealed all of nothing. Therefore we don't know what his reasons are or what his intentions are. In fact we don't know anything about what Rand is thinking. That's why I personally have refrained from criticizing him on this subject. I have said however, as you can see in posts above, that I hope he had a good reason for provoking Egwene like he did. He meant for Egwene to react as she did, the question is why.

 

And I do not hate Egwene. This is probably the only subject I've criticized her on, apart from her role in Nyneave's testing. So, I don't think I've shown any prejudice against her.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Hrm, Egwene seems to have more supporters than detractors in this now. Obviously I am on team Suttree, even if I've been too busy to post much recently.

 

I will reiterate though, the Wise Ones agree with Egwene. Yes they thought he was sane... before Egwene told them what he planned to do. While I don't think they are questioning his sanity now, I also don't think Egwene would start questioning her assumptions about him given that the Wise Ones obviously became worried after Egwene explained why she was worried. Therefore, it would look to her like she had convinced them something was wrong. That would actually reinforce her opinion, despite what they had said previously.

 

Consider it this way. The Wise Ones, who were sure he was sane, are worried about the plan. So Egwene, who has spent next-to-no time with Rand, and thinks he might be insane, would obviously be far more worried than even they are. Insanity is only one possible reason to doubt him. If Egwene did believe Nynaeve, that doesn't mean she'd then agree with the plan. Rand can still be wrong.

 

He certainly can be wrong. But he also might be right. And she doesn't seem to have considered that.

 

The Wise One's should be worried about the plan. Everyone should be worried about it. It's the freaking seals afterall.

 

Oh and if you want to see non-supporters, I suggest you go back a page or two. They're there.

Edited by Master Ablar
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This reminds me of something I think I saw on The Daily Show, or maybe just some random comic.

 

But it was a criticism of current media outlets, suggesting that in the pursuit of "fairness" and "balance" that they were legitimizing every side of an argument, or overplaying the popularity of one side or another.

 

The example was if George Bush were to give a press conference to say the world was flat, the media headlines would be, "Roundness of world in question" instead of "Crazy guy suggests world is flat"

 

That's how I tend to feel characters in WOT would think of the idea, "I want to break the seals to save the world." Even if we, the readers, and a few others with first-hand experience, have reason to think it might actually be legit.

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Hrm, Egwene seems to have more supporters than detractors in this now. Obviously I am on team Suttree, even if I've been too busy to post much recently.

 

I will reiterate though, the Wise Ones agree with Egwene. Yes they thought he was sane... before Egwene told them what he planned to do. While I don't think they are questioning his sanity now, I also don't think Egwene would start questioning her assumptions about him given that the Wise Ones obviously became worried after Egwene explained why she was worried. Therefore, it would look to her like she had convinced them something was wrong. That would actually reinforce her opinion, despite what they had said previously.

 

Consider it this way. The Wise Ones, who were sure he was sane, are worried about the plan. So Egwene, who has spent next-to-no time with Rand, and thinks he might be insane, would obviously be far more worried than even they are. Insanity is only one possible reason to doubt him. If Egwene did believe Nynaeve, that doesn't mean she'd then agree with the plan. Rand can still be wrong.

 

I'm not sure I recall with absolute accuracy, but didn't the WOs say something like: "It's disturbing, we'll consult the Car'a'carn about this". It hardly sounded they were extremely worried and convinced that he's loosing it again.

 

I agree that Egwene deserved more explanation from Rand and he behaved a little unfairly and oddly towards her. He came to WT just to play weird games rather than speak frankly with one of his most important allies. Still, maybe he had his reasons not to trust her too much. Some distrust towards the WT might be left after all he had to endure. He have a good explanation to Nynaeve, I don't see why he couldn't have said the same to Eggy.

 

I sincerely hope it won't come to "part of Rand wants me to stop him from breaking the Seals". I've read somewhere the theory it was Moridin's diabolical plan all along, with Herid Fel's ideas and now with the link. If breaking the Seals is the Shadow's idea imprinted on Rand's mind through the link with Moridin and his behaviour is some kind of cry for help to Egwene...then it's pretty lame. I hope it won't happen that way.

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This reminds me of something I think I saw on The Daily Show, or maybe just some random comic.

 

But it was a criticism of current media outlets, suggesting that in the pursuit of "fairness" and "balance" that they were legitimizing every side of an argument, or overplaying the popularity of one side or another.

 

The example was if George Bush were to give a press conference to say the world was flat, the media headlines would be, "Roundness of world in question" instead of "Crazy guy suggests world is flat"

 

That's how I tend to feel characters in WOT would think of the idea, "I want to break the seals to save the world." Even if we, the readers, and a few others with first-hand experience, have reason to think it might actually be legit.

 

So you mean, characters would think that the idea that the seals need to be broken is completely crazy? The problem is that a number of characters (Perrin, Elayne, and Nyneave in particular) all were ambivalent about the idea. And just the fact that it's the Dragon Reborn who's proposing the idea, gives it quite a bit more weight.

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Just because the motives weren't clarified in TOM doesn't mean you can't piece together very good reasons why Egwene is doing what she's doing (though I think better clarification by the author would have been nice). There are many things in this series where inference is necessary to properly understand motives. As for Rand's lucidity, again, he has a far longer reputation of being touched by madness (via the taint). Without taking more time to sit down with Rand and rationalize his actions and thoughts, Egwene has every right to remain skeptical. Nynaeve could speak of the sudden change in his demeanor (though sudden changes seems more bipolar than anything), but she's also seen how deeply the taint has/had infected his mind. Egwene has also had a prophetic dream in relation to this whole event, so yes, the lack of a good rationalization for insane actions by a man with a mad reputation, a prophetic dream on the subject, and no explanation from people close to Rand as to what he's planning is a pretty good indication to doubt Rand on this. And doubting and opposing the Dragon is not inherently wrong, as demonstrated by the women's opposition to Lews Therin's plans, which saved the world from a far worse fate in the immediate future and left channeling intact for the Last Battle.

 

I'm not praising Egwene's handling of the issue at this point, but she's not in a morally wrong position to be in opposition to him on this given the circumstances. It seems like frustration with Egwene's character and her daring to be in opposition to the lead character on an issue (and we've been lucky enough to get dozens of POVs and see inside the head of him and see him from sides no living person ever would, and have benefited from outsider comments on the mechanics/metaphysics of the world) is combining to create prejudiced opinions on the matter.

So rumors, Rand's reputation, and dreams are considered evidence why the Seals should not be broken? She hasn't even heard Rand's plan and reasoning yet (she doesn't know that he hasn't figured it out yet) and she's already dismissed what he wants to do as insane.

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...dreams are considered evidence why the Seals should not be broken?

 

For a dreamer who can glean the future from them I would think so yes.

Possible futures, I suppose Gawyn is gonna die a young violent death while still living to old age right? In no way is her dreams absolute. And if you're going to consider her dreams to be evidence, then Avi's use of the ter'angreal to see the future is just as justifiable as evidence.

Edited by TamTam Rapley
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...dreams are considered evidence why the Seals should not be broken?

 

For a dreamer who can glean the future from them I would think so yes.

I agree that Egwene's dreams should definitely be given significant weight. It's basically the Pattern pointing and saying "Look here! This is important!" However, her interpretation is not necessarily going to be valid.

 

The vision that seems significant here from Egwene's point of view is the one from The Amyrlin's Anger. There's an enormous sphere of the finest crystal, sparkling in the light of twenty-three stars. There's cracks in it, and it's being held together by ropes. Rand chops apart the ropes holding it together, and the sphere breaks apart. Rand then shakes his head. There's no immediate connection to the seals. Egwene makes a connection when Rand tells her his plan to break the seals, later in the chapter.

 

We know that Egwene has interpreted the dream as pertaining to Rand's decision to break the seals. Lets assume she's correct. What she doesn't know is whether or not it's a bad thing. We don't know what the twenty-three stars represent, we don't know exactly what the sphere is, we don't know if the sphere falling apart is a good or bad thing, etc. We don't even know what is significant in the dream. Is it significant that Rand used an ax, whereas he's been associated with a sword for the rest of the series? Is it significant that Rand was cutting through ropes, rather than smashing seals? Is the number of stars actually significant?

 

What we know:

-Rand is, by his deliberate actions, going to destroy something beautiful.

-Egwene believes that this act of destruction is related to the destruction of the Seals. It's her dream, and I think that it's safe to assume she's right about this and not misinterpreting things due to the proximity of the dream to Rand's declaration.

 

The issue isn't really with Egwene as a dreamer, it's with Egwene being locked into one viewpoint that her dreams haven't justified.

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...dreams are considered evidence why the Seals should not be broken?

 

For a dreamer who can glean the future from them I would think so yes.

Possible futures, I suppose Gawyn is gonna die a young violent death while still living to old age right? In no way is her dreams absolute. And if you're going to consider her dreams to be evidence, then Avi's use of the ter'angreal to see the future is just as justifiable as evidence.

 

I'm sorry not sure what you are getting at? Who said her dreams are absolute? Since Egwene is a dreamer, it is quite likely she would consider dreams evidence in her reason to oppose Rand breaking the seals. That was the question was it not, why Egwene would consider it to be such? That isn't to say it is 100% sure it's going to happen a certain way. Along the same lines this is why I wouldn't call Avi's trip(which is a different mechanic entirely) "definitive proof" of anything.

Edited by Suttree
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The President walks into a joint session meeting of Congress at the height of the Cold War. "In one month, I need you guys to meet me by the Washington Monument. The day after, I'm going to drop a nuclear bomb on Moscow. This is necessary to eliminate the USSR. I can't explain more now, now please let me go." The President then walks out.

 

The Speaker of the House gets up and declares that the President must be stopped because his plan is madness, and begins rallying other members of Congress, business, and labor leaders to oppose the President's plan.

 

Citizens criticize the Speaker for not giving fleshed out reasons as to why Congress must oppose the President on this matter, and blame him/her for not coming up with an alternate plan to end the Cold War. "There's no way to know that the President doesn't have a plan," they say, "and the President is the President after all, with access to the most high security intelligence and advice from generals, surely he knows what he's doing. At least, we can't know that he doesn't know what he's doing, so we can't criticize him."

 

...

 

I should write chain emails for a living. I'm up for dropping this specific issue, in this topic at least.

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