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Bromo Sapien

New Forsaken

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For awhile now, I've had a thought floating around my head concerning the complete decimation of the Forsaken by Our Heroes. Right now, eight of the thirteen Forsaken are dead and all but Aginor can not come back (or, to put it another way to incorporate Asmodean, there's no way in hell the Dark One will bring them back). If the Wheel is cyclical (which really isn't up for debate) and all the Forsaken came from Age Numba 2, doesn't that mean the DO is going to choose some folks from the current crew and convert them? All of the Forsaken were part of the Good Guys at the beginning, and while there are a lot more Darkfriends now than in the Second Age, it would still make sense for the DO to take away from the Light if possible. So, if we accept that some people are Crossing Over, who are they? I have a few ideas, based on how the original Thirteen came to turn to Darth Sidious the Dark One:

 

1) Elaida

 

I know, not original, but still. Right now she's in a hell of a desperate place and could be willing to Turn if it sets her free. Plus, she's been proven to put power above morals and to rather vindictive, spiteful, and manipulative. While obviously not sure things to being a DF, they are definitely pluses in the DO's book. She's resisted the Dark this long, but I remember Alviarin saying that's more because she was doing more than enough to help on her own. She is one of the more powerful Aes Sedai and, like I said before, would definitely consider it if given the chance to escape the torture of damane-hood.

 

2) Taim

 

Already a DF, so I know it goes against the "Taking from the Light" theory above, but if you had a tool this powerful, wouldn't you use it? People have already noted the innumerable connections to Demandred in the disproven Taimendred theory but still, with the whole Wheel motif, these similarities can't be purely coincedental. He is definitely the leader of the male Dreadlords and, whether you think he was Circle of Thirteen'd to evil or is just naturally that lovable, he's the most powerful channeler the Dark has so I definitely think he can take a spot in the Dark One's Harem of Evil.

 

3) One of Rand's Girls

 

Let me preface this that I think there's a slim chance that Elayne/ Aviendha/ Min turn Dark, but the connections between Mieren (Lanfear)/Ilyena and Elayne/Aviendha are earily similar. While the girls all seem to be fine with sharing Rand so far, who's to say what happens when they all meet up together again. Of the three, I think Aviendha fits most with Lanfear

and Elayne with Ilyena. I have no idea who Min is in all this but Aviendha seems like the more likely one to go crazy. Rand has given her the least attention of the three (have they "done" anything since they Travelled to Seanchan?) Rand and Aviendha seem to barely see each other, what with ruling the world and going crazy and, on the opposite side, learning to be a Wise One and now going to Rhuidean. I see a deep connection between Rand and both Elayne and Min, but not as much as Aviendha. I think she could snap off, if any.

 

4) Mat

 

Bear with me! I know it's shocking. He's probably most people's favorite character, myself included, but still the parallels between him and both Be'lal and Sammael. Both were friends of Lews Therin and competed with him in various sports. Sammael was a master archer and excelled at bloodless sports, two things definitely associated with Mat. He left Emond's Field with a bow and defeated Galad and Gawyn with a quarterstaff. Mat's repeatedly said that he would rather avoid bloodshed when he can, as well. Sammael was said to have been one of the best generals in the War of Power (perhaps one of the Five Greatest Captains of the time?) and his talents tended towards defense, like Mat. Be'lal, along with Lews Therin, brought back a lost art of warfare (swordfighting), and Mat obviously has a connection to history and bringing the past and the present. While Mat can't channel, the Dark One can grant people use of the True Power and I wouldn't be surprised if he could somehow make it so Mat could channel the One Power as well. I doubt any of the Second Agers thought Tel Janin or Duram Laddel or definitely not Elan Morin would switch, but they all did. They were all main characters in that time; whose to say one of ours couldn't follow suit.

 

So, do you have any to add to the list? Any you vehementally disagree with? Thoughts in general?

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He is definitely the leader of the male Dreadlords and, whether you think he was Circle of Thirteen'd to evil or is just naturally that lovable, he's the most powerful channeler the Dark has so I definitely think he can take a spot in the Dark One's Harem of Evil.

 

Taim would actually be a dreadlord himself, although it is possible he could be made forsaken. Either way Moridin leads though.

 

Let me preface this that I think there's a slim chance that Elayne/ Aviendha/ Min turn Dark, but the connections between Mieren (Lanfear)/Ilyena and Elayne/Aviendha are earily similar. While the girls all seem to be fine with sharing Rand so far, who's to say what happens when they all meet up together again. Of the three, I think Aviendha fits most with Lanfear

 

How so? They are polar opposites in terms of personality and outlook on life.

 

While Mat can't channel, the Dark One can grant people use of the True Power and I wouldn't be surprised if he could somehow make it so Mat could channel the One Power as well.

 

The DO can only give people that can channel use of the TP. RJ is on record saying Mat can not channel, there is not the slightest hint that OP usage can be granted. It is a soul attribute.

Edited by Suttree

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he's the most powerful channeler the Dark has

 

What gives you that idea? Ishamael fought Lews Therin at the Gates of Paaran Disen and managed to walk away with his life, which is saying something. Ishamael's obviously the strongest channeller the Dark One has.. and Demandred shouldn't be too far of himself. He's the man who was just that little inch behind Lews Therin his entire life.

 

Never mind that Ishaemael and Demandred have the knowledge of the One Power from the Age of Legends. Really.. Rand Sedai, Elan Sedai and Barid Sedai are all in a league of their own right now.

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At this point I'd have to say nobody, because we don't have the time left to work in a such a profound plot arc, and because I think the most likely characters have moved beyond that danger. Here's my thoughts on how some characters -could- have turned dark:

 

Perrin - Perrin's singular obsession with Faile was dangerous, as even he points out. Had Faile died, I could have seen Perrin going dark(er) out of resentment or desire for revenge. After accepting his duty and leadership in ToM, though, and that kind of fall isn't likely to happen anymore.

 

Nynaeve - I could see Nynaeve going evil for a few reasons, but most stem from her tendency to get angry at and resentful of anything she can't control. As Cadsuane pointed out, Nynave was slow to learn "what could be endured, must be endured", or that you simply can't always make the world do what you want. Remember that Graendal turned to the Shadow because the rest of the world didn't live up to her ascetic ideals. Now, I think Nynaeve has begun moving beyond that in TGS and ToM.

 

Egwene - Egwene's ambition and desire to do good could have easily been been twisted to lead her down a dark path, much like how Ingtar or Mordeth became corrupted. She also has, I think, a streak of professional jealousy towards Rand, and we've seen how that can turn out with Sammael and Demandred. Of any character, I'd say Egwene still has the greatest chance of turning evil--for instance if she became convinced that Rand had to be stopped at all costs (think High Lord Kevin from The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant). That chance is still extremely slim at this point.

 

(I once speculated that Gawyn might be driven to kill Egwene in order to save her from some dark fate, thus fulfilling both versions of the relevant prophecy. I still think that would have been a nifty turn of events.)

 

-- dwn

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I really don't see how anyone could think Nyn' would turn dark. Yes she had a quick temper and was down-right sexist regarding men.. but she's always cared. It was care for her people that drove her out of the Two Rivers, it was care for Rand and Mat and Perrin that drove her out in search of the Black Ajah and it was care for all the people of the Wheel that drove to to the Shawl.

 

Has she always been the "nicest" of persons? No. But she's always been the best of persons. There's pretty much an absolute chance that she would never turn to the Shadow.

Edited by Jon Paul

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I don't think the DO will feel the need to turn anyone. He has all the Asha'Man who's with Taim, plus all the BA that escaped the WT. There's his army of Dreadlords there.

Anyone revealed to be a DF this late in the day I think will be Aiel.(Chief or WO) Not based on any evidence, simply because I think their due one.

Edited by damandred

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Melindhra yeah, but she was just a maiden. I think someone a bit higher up the ranks would satisfy the veiw that not enough good guys of rank have been revealed as DF.

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Some already suggest Taim has been made Forsaken already, and that subsequently he was the one responsible for the attack on Algarin's manor in KoD. If your interested in my coverage of the evidence on it, click on the link to my FAQ in my signature, and go to the 'attack on Algarin's manor' link.

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Alviarin for chosen statis. If any other DF channeller deserves it, its her. She seems chief of the BA already. Maybe she will take meesy's place?

Plus she was marked and given special protection from Messy's wrath.

Edited by damandred

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On a technical basis, I think that Rand counts as one of the Chosen, ever since he was granted access to the True Power. From the time at which Rand killed Semirhage to the tie of Veins of Gold, he was as capable of great evil as any of the Chosen, and he still has a link to the Dark One allowing him to use True Power. For a while, when the pattern warped around Ramd, it did so according to the Dark One's will.

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She is not strong enough to reach chosen status. She might be strong for modern times, but she does not even compair to a real Chosen.

 

Yeah. Bout that. All darkfriend channelers in the Age of Legends were Chosen. 3% of the population could channel--even at conservative estimates, in order to hold their own against the Light there must have been hundreds of thousands of Chosen. Likely millions.

 

Which means that a very, very, very great many of the Chosen would have been weaker than Alviarin.

 

The Chosen trapped in the Bore were the cream of the crop, and strength no doubt helped them get there... but for all that, there was never a strength limit implied or inferred to being Chosen. The Dreadlords chose not to call themselves Chosen because they feared the presumption when comparing themselves to the Age of Legends Chosen. A channeler chosen directly by the Dark One has no need to fear that.

 

I'm not saying that I think Alviarin might become fully Chosen, but this idea that because of her strength she could never be a 'real Chosen' is bogus. Indeed, under the right circumstances the Dark One could gain a great deal by having more people around with the Chosen Mark, able to compel Shadowspawn.

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She is not strong enough to reach chosen status. She might be strong for modern times, but she does not even compair to a real Chosen.

 

Don't forget that Asmodean was never considered powerful, just manipulative and good at controlling others. If he could make it as a Chosen, Alviarin definitely qualifies.

 

As for what I was saying with Taim being the most powerful channeler for the DO, I meant in terms of channelers not already in that class. That's the whole point of the thread; I think all the current Forsaken won't survive the last book and the DO will have to replace them like he replaced the First Agers with the Thirteen we currently did.

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Don't forget that Asmodean was never considered powerful, just manipulative and good at controlling others. If he could make it as a Chosen, Alviarin definitely qualifies.

 

 

And now, in reverse, we don't know Asmodean was weak in the Power. We only ever saw him under a shield--which yes, Lanfear said would disipate, though Rand stated there was no change. It is stated that he was involved in some battles, though he never lead a battle, which would imply some degree of ability.

 

Additionally, Asmodean was never stated as manipulative or good at controlling others. He served as an administrator during the War of the Shadow.

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Don't forget that Asmodean was never considered powerful, just manipulative and good at controlling others. If he could make it as a Chosen, Alviarin definitely qualifies.

 

 

And now, in reverse, we don't know Asmodean was weak in the Power. We only ever saw him under a shield--which yes, Lanfear said would disipate, though Rand stated there was no change. It is stated that he was involved in some battles, though he never lead a battle, which would imply some degree of ability.

 

Additionally, Asmodean was never stated as manipulative or good at controlling others. He served as an administrator during the War of the Shadow.

 

We saw Asmodean fight Rand at the end of TSR and an untrained Rand beat him. There's an interesting article over at the Thirteenth Depository about the ranks of the Forsaken in terms of strength. They have a quote in there comparing Asmodean's strength to Moghedien, who is almost defined by her weakness in the story.

 

Also, in terms of his manipulativeness, he was the one who started the whole Shaido thing by convincing Couladin he was the Car'a'carn as well as putting the Dragons on his arms. If you think about it, before turning to the Light at the end, he was the most effective Forsaken to cause chaos, though I doubt he had that in mind and more wanted the access ter'angreal. I doubt he could come up with that manipulativeness randomly after spending no time practicing it in Shayol Ghul.

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Don't forget that Asmodean was never considered powerful, just manipulative and good at controlling others. If he could make it as a Chosen, Alviarin definitely qualifies.

 

 

And now, in reverse, we don't know Asmodean was weak in the Power. We only ever saw him under a shield--which yes, Lanfear said would disipate, though Rand stated there was no change. It is stated that he was involved in some battles, though he never lead a battle, which would imply some degree of ability.

 

Additionally, Asmodean was never stated as manipulative or good at controlling others. He served as an administrator during the War of the Shadow.

 

We saw Asmodean fight Rand at the end of TSR and an untrained Rand beat him. There's an interesting article over at the Thirteenth Depository about the ranks of the Forsaken in terms of strength. They have a quote in there comparing Asmodean's strength to Moghedien, who is almost defined by her weakness in the story.

 

Also, in terms of his manipulativeness, he was the one who started the whole Shaido thing by convincing Couladin he was the Car'a'carn as well as putting the Dragons on his arms. If you think about it, before turning to the Light at the end, he was the most effective Forsaken to cause chaos, though I doubt he had that in mind and more wanted the access ter'angreal. I doubt he could come up with that manipulativeness randomly after spending no time practicing it in Shayol Ghul.

 

He's likened to her in terms of personality and of courage (or rather, lack thereof). At the beginning of tSR, Rand could effortlessly hold Egwene and Elayne both in shields, while weaving plenty of other things at the same time. Egwene and Elayne are probably not too far from Moghedien in power, once they reach their full potential that is. At the end of the book Asmodean was matching Rand exactly in terms of strength. Furthemore Nyneave equalled Moghedien exactly as well at the end of the book. And as strong as Nyneave is there is still a fairly large gap between her and Rand. Which means there must be a fairly large gap between Asmodean and Moghedien as well.

 

And an untrained Rand also killed Ishamael. And Aginor for that matter. Those are the two strongest (in terms of brute strength) Forsaken.

Edited by Master Ablar

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We saw Asmodean fight Rand at the end of TSR and an untrained Rand beat him. There's an interesting article over at the Thirteenth Depository about the ranks of the Forsaken in terms of strength. They have a quote in there comparing Asmodean's strength to Moghedien, who is almost defined by her weakness in the story.

 

Regardless of whether the 13th article is correct in it's assumptions, it still does nothing to compare Alviarin's relative strength to bottom level Forsaken. There is no correlation at all between Asmodean and Alvarian definitely qualifying. From everything we know she is a step below the wonder girls, let alone the forsaken.

 

She could make chosen due to her BA service, but it would have nothing to do with any comparative strength to Asmodean.

Edited by Suttree

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Alviarin is a step below the girls at their peak, no question. Moiraine comments that all three are the most powerful found she's ever seen. However, what I'm saying with her is that it isn't always strength that matters. Asmodean and Moghedien both made it to the Forsaken while being comparatively weaker in the power to their peers for other qualities, much like Alviarin is great at sowing evil and manipulation.

 

As for Asmodean's strength, the fact that he wasn't used in battle when he had this great ability for destruction inherent in him says something. All the other Forsaken fought directly in the war one way or another. Even as cowardly as he is, do you think the DO would let that be an excuse to not use him? I'll concede that comparing him to Alviarin wasn't smart, but I still think he was one of the weakest Forsaken behind Moghedien.

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Alviarin is a step below the girls at their peak, no question. Moiraine comments that all three are the most powerful found she's ever seen. However, what I'm saying with her is that it isn't always strength that matters. Asmodean and Moghedien both made it to the Forsaken while being comparatively weaker in the power to their peers for other qualities, much like Alviarin is great at sowing evil and manipulation.

 

As for Asmodean's strength, the fact that he wasn't used in battle when he had this great ability for destruction inherent in him says something. All the other Forsaken fought directly in the war one way or another. Even as cowardly as he is, do you think the DO would let that be an excuse to not use him? I'll concede that comparing him to Alviarin wasn't smart, but I still think he was one of the weakest Forsaken behind Moghedien.

 

Demandred is probably very strong, but he certainly didn't fight on the front lines. As a general he rarely fought directly. And Aginor was second only to LTT and Ishamael in strength but he didn't fight much either.

 

Asmodean could equal Rand at the end of tSR and Moghedien could equal Nyneave. Rand is quite a bit stronger than Nyneave, therefore Asmodean must also be quite a bit stronger than Moghedien. But this is just brute strength. In terms of standing amongst the Forsaken, I'd say they probably had about the same amount of influence.

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Yeah, about that strength, Nyn is around average of a female Forsaken, according to the Thirteenth Depository (sorry, I don't have time to provide a link).

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Yeah, about that strength, Nyn is around average of a female Forsaken, according to the Thirteenth Depository (sorry, I don't have time to provide a link).

 

She's supposed to be about equal with Semirhage according to Brandon I believe. Which according to the Thirteenth Depository is stronger than Moghedien and Mesaana, but weaker than Greandal and Lanfear. So, yes, average strength for a female Forsaken.

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If any Darkfriend channeler becomes a Forsaken, I would guess it would be after all of the 13 become and remain dead/captured/incapcipated.

 

 

Characters that might be turning toward the Shadow or might be becoming evil::

-Elaida

-Taim (only thing certain about his alliance is that he is non-Light)

Edited by mb

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Rand not chosen, chosen point and shadow spawn go.

Shadow spawn don't listen to Rand they hate him/want to kill him.

Maybe DO didn't give him True power, but he got thru his connection to moridin.

The girls changing? nah. LTT led a different life, also while he was the dragon, his wife was good. Meirin was an old girlfriend... Egwene ain't like that, that kind of story arc fits more with an urban society where there are crazy girls, in rural society that doesn't really fit because both parties know they have to sleep in any bed they make, there is nowhere to go, you live in the same town all your life.

I always liked Avi, but admittedly, we just saw more of her character in the last book than in the whole story put together, and tho she seems even more alien now than ever, still like her and her concern for the future seems genuine, that ain't the type of person who goes to the dark side.

Perrin was close, but now he turned back doesn't seem likely.

Mat already knows he is skirting the edge, during the Stone trip to Falme, he betrays Rand in an alternate universe (I believe that betrayal was: doing what he thought was right, but later realized he should have backed Rand possible example of turning Rand to Aes Sedai because he is a channeler, but the Aes Sedai kill him bring about the death of all...). That said he will be very careful, he is suspicious of his luck, he would actually be harder to trick than the others.

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