Seanchan Attack..

[Logoth]

So, have been re-reading ToM and am curious whether the Seanchan will launch their attack against the White Tower or not. While it seems obvious that they would, and this would have dire consequences for the Aes Sedai, I just don't think it will be a simple attack. It seems like it may coincide with an attack of Shadowspawn or something. Or that the attack will not happen at all as something will occur that makes the Seanchan unable to or no longer willing to.

 

I am curious what the thoughts are out there on this?

[Lisa Campbell]

I've read lots of theories just as you have. Personally I think that it is still being planned, but I think Tuon will have a change of heart after the FoM meet. Not necessarily that she or a rep will be there, but I think Rand will try to make contact with her again.

[FarShainMael]

I think there will be a strike at the WT.. just as Mat turns up, looking for the HoV.. and says to Tuon 'What under the Light do you think you're playing at?' or some such. Cue fireworks (of one sort or another )

[Pinzarn]

I think there will be a strike at the WT.. just as Mat turns up, looking for the HoV.. and says to Tuon 'What under the Light do you think you're playing at?' or some such. Cue fireworks (of one sort or another )

 

My thoughts are along the same lines. I am guessing that the Prince of Ravens is ultimately in charge of the army. The Seanchan show up, see Mat, and wait for orders.

[threadnecromancer]

I doubt there will be another Seanchan attack on the White Tower Jordan probably felt that once was enough especially considering that it this was all supposed to be happening in a single book.

[JeffNussbaum]

i think that they will come to the white tower and somehow end up helping out the AS and help the light in TM just my thought

[rand4747]

They will arrive just in time to save the white tower from being destroyed by the shadows armys. ;)

[Luckers]

They will arrive just in time to save the white tower from being destroyed by the shadows armys. ;)

 

I'm not sure if your joking or not, but that's actually what I think. I believe that Egwene's dream of the Seanchan woman with the ever-shifting face whose sword is the most real thing about her refers to a Seanchan army led (or directed) by Fortuona to relieve a Shadowspawn siege of Tar Valon. This is the adversity [i.e. cliff face] they will be able to make it through together.

[Duskfire]

The combined ta`veren pull of Mat, Perrin and Rand will pull the Seanchan invasion force to the gathering, similar to what happened with Verin when she met up with Mat.

 

I do also like the idea of the Seanchan taking over the Whitetower and then stopping a Shadowspawn army; in which case Tuon will realise just how much everyone needs to work together to win.

[yoniy0]

I wonder how Mat might make an invading force stop and ask questions. Simply screaming at the top of his lungs that he's the Prince of Ravens doesn't strike me as particularly productive. It's not like Tuon is likely to come in person, and very few know him beside her. Even those who do have little reason to take his orders over hers, I think.

[Wantanswers]

They will arrive just in time to save the white tower from being destroyed by the shadows armys. ;)

 

I'm not sure if your joking or not, but that's actually what I think. I believe that Egwene's dream of the Seanchan woman with the ever-shifting face whose sword is the most real thing about her refers to a Seanchan army led (or directed) by Fortuona to relieve a Shadowspawn siege of Tar Valon. This is the adversity [i.e. cliff face] they will be able to make it through together.

Did you change your mind? When I posted this idea with my reasoning, one of your answers was this:

4. This dream could be an example of when dreams do not come true. Dreams, unlike Foretellings, only show possible futures. This is what I believe is the case--I do not see time for another Seanchan assault on the White Tower. (Posted on 9/19/11)

 

I still do believe that the White Tower will be occupied by the BA and Shadowspan. Aside from the attack of leashed Aes Sedai, there are other things to consider:

Rands dream. He once had a dream walking through Tar Valon to the White Tower, where he was welcomed by a Myrddraal. Is this a true dream, a foreshadowing or a red herring?

In the third part of her testing Egwene saw that the tower was occupied by Dark forces. Vision, dream, foreshadowing or red herring?

Furthermore we have to realize that Min's second time has not been fulfilled yet.

[FarShainMael]

I wonder how Mat might make an invading force stop and ask questions. Simply screaming at the top of his lungs that he's the Prince of Ravens doesn't strike me as particularly productive. It's not like Tuon is likely to come in person, and very few know him beside her. Even those who do have little reason to take his orders over hers, I think.

 

Well, if he has the Horn.. Remember what he did at Falme!

 

The appearance of Artur Paendrag should be enough to give the Seanchan pause.

[yoniy0]

Well, if he has the Horn.. Remember what he did at Falme!

 

The appearance of Artur Paendrag should be enough to give the Seanchan pause.

Oh, right, forgot about that. Yes, he could repeat that act, although I wonder if it's thematically prudent to have him blow the Horn twice in one book (anyone thinks it wouldn't be needed against the Shadow?).

 

Of course, your second sentence kind of flies in the face of that. I do remember Hawkwing at Falme, and he didn't seem to have any effect on the Seanchan there (he was plenty visible, leading the Heroes as he did).

[Logoth]

Well, if he has the Horn.. Remember what he did at Falme!

 

The appearance of Artur Paendrag should be enough to give the Seanchan pause.

Oh, right, forgot about that. Yes, he could repeat that act, although I wonder if it's thematically prudent to have him blow the Horn twice in one book (anyone thinks it wouldn't be needed against the Shadow?).

 

Of course, your second sentence kind of flies in the face of that. I do remember Hawkwing at Falme, and he didn't seem to have any effect on the Seanchan there (he was plenty visible, leading the Heroes as he did).

 

 

For all we know, it was the reason the Seanchan were so thoroughly beaten. The only thing I find odd is that there is no mention of Hawkwing by any of the Seanchan (that we know of) after Falme. Either we just were not privy to those thoughts or they didn't even recognize him.

[yoniy0]

For all we know, it was the reason the Seanchan were so thoroughly beaten.

I find that very hard to believe. We've seen quite a bit of the fight, and they weren't easily thwarted. Actually, Rand sees them pushing the Heroes back whenever Ishamael got the jump on him. It's not until after Rand runs him through that the Seanchan were beaten (after all, fighting someone you can't harm has to ultimately be futile, wouldn't you say?)

[FarShainMael]

Well, if he has the Horn.. Remember what he did at Falme!

 

The appearance of Artur Paendrag should be enough to give the Seanchan pause.

Oh, right, forgot about that. Yes, he could repeat that act, although I wonder if it's thematically prudent to have him blow the Horn twice in one book (anyone thinks it wouldn't be needed against the Shadow?).

 

Of course, your second sentence kind of flies in the face of that. I do remember Hawkwing at Falme, and he didn't seem to have any effect on the Seanchan there (he was plenty visible, leading the Heroes as he did).

 

 

For all we know, it was the reason the Seanchan were so thoroughly beaten. The only thing I find odd is that there is no mention of Hawkwing by any of the Seanchan (that we know of) after Falme. Either we just were not privy to those thoughts or they didn't even recognize him.

 

I'd like to think it was the latter. The only ones who got a good look at the Heroes were Rand and his party.

 

Another thing: the Heroes come to the Horn, but they follow the Dragon banner. I'm pretty sure Mat doesn't have one of those about his person, so he can't order Hawkwing to fight; but if they hang around long enough for even one of the Seanchan high Blood to see and know them for what they are, that might suffice. And if Fortuona (mslf) is present - she might be, if she wants to see the 'final downfall' of the WT - I wonder how she will react.

[yoniy0]

Another thing: the Heroes come to the Horn, but they follow the Dragon banner. I'm pretty sure Mat doesn't have one of those about his person, so he can't order Hawkwing to fight;

Well, that's definitely not certain. The reports about it are conflicting, and some might only refer to that time and place (i.e., at other times the Heroes might not need the Banner). Here are the relevant ones I could find:

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.)

 

Brisbane 20 September 1999 - Joel Gilmore reporting

I re-asked the question about the Shadow controlling one of the Horn or the banner, and he said that the Heroes would have to follow the

Horn (I think. I don't have this on tape, so...But he didn't say anything about a rift, which was what I'd heard someone say he said before?)7

 

Knife of Dreams book tour Dayton, OH 21 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Were the Dragon Banner and the Horn of Valere made at the same time?

RJ: No.

Q: Then why did Hawkwing need Rand to produce the banner at Falme before he could attack?

RJ: Legends change.

 

Interview with Maria Simons 10 June 2010 - Luckers reporting

Luckers: At the end of The Great Hunt after the Horn is sounded, Hawkwing goes to ride off, then states that ‘something is wrong’ and that ‘something’ holds him, and says to Rand ‘you are here, have you the banner?’ This has led to the perception that the Horn requires the Dragon or the Dragon banner to work. Is this perception correct, or is this a result of the Weave of the Moment, or just plain Hawkwing’s sense of romanticism?

Maria: I would think, given that the banner was hidden with the Horn of Valere, that it might indeed be very necessary for it. I have no idea why, though, or how.

[FarShainMael]

Hmm. Not very conclusive.. but I wonder if RJ was leaving his options open ('legends change') so that Mat can call the HotH without Rand having to be around.

[cancan4ever]

the waygate in tar valon....is it secured or not??? verins other letters??? my theory is that we will have a convergance on the tower....this involves a few theories. the amyrlins anger....i dont know when or how but i think ....tuon will go to the FoM to meet rand ( a distraction technique). rand will strike a deal that goes along the lines of "you can keep the damane you have but cannot take any more" his taverness binds Tuon to this but the problem is that simultaniously the seanchan have travelled to tar valon and are launching an all out assault. egwayne is PISSED and i mean LIVID. maybe even tries to do something insane to rand. in turn shes smacked down and her and tuon travel to tar valon to stop the capturing of other aes sedai...only they find that hordes of trollocs are spewing out of the waygate and attacking the tower as well. at the SAME BLOODY TIME matrim meanders in to find the horn but finds a cluster f*** of seanchan vs aes sedai vs trollocs vs whatever utter chaos....mat takes control of the seanchan forces....saves the tower from the shadowspawn etc etc.

[FarShainMael]

Well, the 'finns did call Mat the 'centre of all'...........

[cancan4ever]

i think he will go to caemlyn first to get the band and subsequently save his dragons and the city....THEN go to tar valon for my above scenario.....i just dont see mat going to the tower for ANY reason without an army at his back...its just so mat..."so you wanna give me my horn or am i firing the cannons at you?" andddd if you consider the original outriggers idea and mat lives on to have more adventures it makes sense that in the end he is the surving hero of so many battles such as caemlyn and tar valon...hence the center of it all...

[Wantanswers]

the waygate in tar valon....is it secured or not??? verins other letters??? my theory is that we will have a convergance on the tower....this involves a few theories. the amyrlins anger....i dont know when or how but i think ....tuon will go to the FoM to meet rand ( a distraction technique). rand will strike a deal that goes along the lines of "you can keep the damane you have but cannot take any more" his taverness binds Tuon to this but the problem is that simultaniously the seanchan have travelled to tar valon and are launching an all out assault. egwayne is PISSED and i mean LIVID. maybe even tries to do something insane to rand. in turn shes smacked down and her and tuon travel to tar valon to stop the capturing of other aes sedai...only they find that hordes of trollocs are spewing out of the waygate and attacking the tower as well. at the SAME BLOODY TIME matrim meanders in to find the horn but finds a cluster f*** of seanchan vs aes sedai vs trollocs vs whatever utter chaos....mat takes control of the seanchan forces....saves the tower from the shadowspawn etc etc.

This won't ever happen. Tuon has to much honor to make a false deal.

[MattTaz]

Grady is going to open a gateway at Noon. This would be from FoM as Perrin left directly there after Mat went to ToG.

Mat steps into FoM and notes Egwene is there.

He wants the HoV and Siuan is the only one alive who knows where it is hidden.

They travel directly to the WT.

The Trollocs arrive - either via Waygate or the ones that have broken through - was it Arafel that has fallen or Kandor?

Tuon and a massive force arrive to destroy the WT but end up saving it.

I dont think Mat will go from FoM to Caemlyn

There was also some viewing of Elayne and a bloodied hand or severed hand???

Also a sidenote, the massive armies travelling the Ways suggest that when Sammael left the Shadar Logoth waygate open in ACOS and when Rand cleansed

the source and destroyed Shadar Logoth the cleansing went through the Waygate as well. Because Machin Shin would have feasted on those armies

Just throwing that out there :P

[cancan4ever]

i dont think honorable deal comes in to play. tuon is still under the belief that rand will bow and succumb to the seanchan. she will go to the FoM firmly believing to reign in the dragon reborn. but she already underestimated the pull of dark rand...now she will face jesus rand....the pattern will demand a deal be made. throw in avi somewhere too. so no tuon doesnt go there planning for a backstab...but it ends up a back stab because of the demand for an agreement....she will make a deal she never intended to make....now the fly in my theory stew is that mats gateway back from the tower SHOULD bring him to the FoM and not to caemlyn or TV first....which reminds me of an irk of mine....i know elaynes done some dumb things....but not taking the dragons to the FoM, not taking them or the band to freaking tarmon gaidon is such an obvious plot device....even elayne isnt dumb enough to doom the world to keep illian or tear from getting those dragons...ugh im sorry...its off topic but it just bugs the hell out of me lol.

[FarShainMael]

Another thing: the Heroes come to the Horn, but they follow the Dragon banner. I'm pretty sure Mat doesn't have one of those about his person, so he can't order Hawkwing to fight;

Well, that's definitely not certain. The reports about it are conflicting, and some might only refer to that time and place (i.e., at other times the Heroes might not need the Banner). Here are the relevant ones I could find:

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.)

 

Brisbane 20 September 1999 - Joel Gilmore reporting

I re-asked the question about the Shadow controlling one of the Horn or the banner, and he said that the Heroes would have to follow the

Horn (I think. I don't have this on tape, so...But he didn't say anything about a rift, which was what I'd heard someone say he said before?)7

 

Knife of Dreams book tour Dayton, OH 21 October 2005 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: Were the Dragon Banner and the Horn of Valere made at the same time?

RJ: No.

Q: Then why did Hawkwing need Rand to produce the banner at Falme before he could attack?

RJ: Legends change.

 

Interview with Maria Simons 10 June 2010 - Luckers reporting

Luckers: At the end of The Great Hunt after the Horn is sounded, Hawkwing goes to ride off, then states that ‘something is wrong’ and that ‘something’ holds him, and says to Rand ‘you are here, have you the banner?’ This has led to the perception that the Horn requires the Dragon or the Dragon banner to work. Is this perception correct, or is this a result of the Weave of the Moment, or just plain Hawkwing’s sense of romanticism?

Maria: I would think, given that the banner was hidden with the Horn of Valere, that it might indeed be very necessary for it. I have no idea why, though, or how.

 

In fact, Mat might indeed have one of those banners. In LoC38, he is on his way to Salidar at Rand's orders to collect Elayne and convey her to Caemlyn:

 

The trees stood tall enough to have allowed a breeze to stir under the sparse canopy overhead, but the Red Hand banner hung limp, and so did the two he had dug out once Rand put them through that gateway into a night-covered meadow, a Dragon banner, the red-and-gold shape hidden in white folds, and one of those the Band called Al’Thor’s Banner, the ancient Aes Sedai symbol also thankfully wrapped inside. A grizzled senior bannerman had the Red Hand, a fellow with narrow eyes and more scars than Daerid who insisted on actually carrying the banner a part of each day, which few bannermen did.