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Future Of the Asha'men


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What is? The BT is said to ressemble any other common village in Andor (apart from the fact that there are a bunch of Ashaman there of course). Taim's done a lot for the BT, but he can't do everything. He's responsible for the Ashaman becoming what they are, but I don't see what that has to do with the location of the BT. He's got his palace and he's probably not all that interested in what happens to the rest of the BT. The other Ashaman however, such as Androl seem quite attached to the BT.

 

Have you read the description in the later books? Does every village have a massive power wrought wall? Also Taim's palace/fortress is something that doesn't pop up most places. Taim has made a large scale redesign since it was just a "village".

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What is? The BT is said to ressemble any other common village in Andor (apart from the fact that there are a bunch of Ashaman there of course). Taim's done a lot for the BT, but he can't do everything. He's responsible for the Ashaman becoming what they are, but I don't see what that has to do with the location of the BT. He's got his palace and he's probably not all that interested in what happens to the rest of the BT. The other Ashaman however, such as Androl seem quite attached to the BT.

 

Have you read the description in the later books? Does every village have a massive power wrought wall? Also Taim's palace/fortress is something that doesn't pop up most places. Taim has made a large scale redesign since it was just a "village".

 

You're right, I forgot about the Wall. But apart from that and Taim's palace (which are probably the only things he cares about, as they are what allow him to carry out the turning of channellers), the rest of the BT, according to Androl at least, could pass off as any other regular, albeit rapidly growing, village in Andor.

 

Is the Wall actually power wrought? I mean they're just using the power to aid in it's construction right? It's not like the Stone of Tear which actually has power weavings inside the very stone, according to Egwene I think.

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I dont believe the BT and WT will ever merge together due to conflicting ideals (If I were Ashaman I wouldn't want to swear those bloody oaths). My guess though would be they would still work together in some world governing capacity.

 

I think the Oaths should be removed from Aes Sedai post TG. My reasoning is that people are always looking for a hidden meaning or ommision in their words, whereas Wise Ones are respected and trusted without the oaths. This would only work post TG though since the oath rod is required until then to root out dark friends.

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I think the Asha'Man will be another Warder-esque addition to the Aes Sedai ranks personally. Once the women realize the extreme benefit of working together with men, you will see Asha'man more and more being " bonded " and becoming warders of the women. Less foot soldiers, more power wielding counterparts.

 

Guardian could easily become the staple of the new warder Asha'man. Guardians of their Aes Sedai. While the Aes Sedai are the " protectors of all ". I do not see them taking oaths though, unless the Aes Sedai force that issue.

 

With the future that Avi saw, I HIGHLY doubt the Seachan are left alone in the last book. I fully expect the Aeil and the Aes Sedai to take the battle straight to them. Especially when the 2nd attack occurs on the White Tower. That will be the last straw. Rand will most likely go out and do his thing in the blight, but the rest of the world will send their eyes to the Seachan empire. The risk is far too great to the future of the world to allow that empire to keep gaining strength while the rest of the worlds attention is on the last battle.

 

There is of course a small matter of Matt and his " relationship " with the Empress. He could somehow talk her into changing the ways of the Seachan, atleast on the surface. And what happens if the secret of the Damane and Sul'Dam are revealed to the whole of the empire? That is something Matt could easily do without think much on the matter.

 

Then of course there is Moraine. She will have a major role. I think it will be Moraine and Nyneave with Rand in the end. Both of those women he trusts above all others.

 

I for one am incredibly excited about all the potential of Book 14. So many different things COULD happen. I for one really do hope that the Seachan get absolutely crushed in the last book with no hope of Avi's future coming to pass.

 

Asha'man though. They are already infiltrated by a Dreamspike or lance or whatever, which is causing the problem with gateways. So there is def. a Forsaken member there. Likely it is Taim himself from the looks of it. But we shall see. I think the idea of Asha'man warders to Aes Sedai is too juicy for the aes sedai to ignore though. Especially when the full power of Saidan and Saidar is revealed to all.

 

And do the Ashaman have any say in whether or not they will become warders?

 

I would think so yeah. Once everything settles down I could see it as a mutual agreement. I could even see the Black and White tower mending and becoming one. New schools opening training the men and women to channel together, using their weaves cohesively to make everything more power. Same as in the age of legends, only no Madness this time around.

 

Would make the Seachan absolutely useless, even in battle. Asha'man are battle ready Aes Sedai, while in GS you saw how unbattle ready the Aes Sedai are. The Aes Sedai need the Asha'man, that is for certain.

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I think the Asha'Man will be another Warder-esque addition to the Aes Sedai ranks personally. Once the women realize the extreme benefit of working together with men, you will see Asha'man more and more being " bonded " and becoming warders of the women. Less foot soldiers, more power wielding counterparts.

 

Guardian could easily become the staple of the new warder Asha'man. Guardians of their Aes Sedai. While the Aes Sedai are the " protectors of all ". I do not see them taking oaths though, unless the Aes Sedai force that issue.

 

With the future that Avi saw, I HIGHLY doubt the Seachan are left alone in the last book. I fully expect the Aeil and the Aes Sedai to take the battle straight to them. Especially when the 2nd attack occurs on the White Tower. That will be the last straw. Rand will most likely go out and do his thing in the blight, but the rest of the world will send their eyes to the Seachan empire. The risk is far too great to the future of the world to allow that empire to keep gaining strength while the rest of the worlds attention is on the last battle.

 

There is of course a small matter of Matt and his " relationship " with the Empress. He could somehow talk her into changing the ways of the Seachan, atleast on the surface. And what happens if the secret of the Damane and Sul'Dam are revealed to the whole of the empire? That is something Matt could easily do without think much on the matter.

 

Then of course there is Moraine. She will have a major role. I think it will be Moraine and Nyneave with Rand in the end. Both of those women he trusts above all others.

 

I for one am incredibly excited about all the potential of Book 14. So many different things COULD happen. I for one really do hope that the Seachan get absolutely crushed in the last book with no hope of Avi's future coming to pass.

 

Asha'man though. They are already infiltrated by a Dreamspike or lance or whatever, which is causing the problem with gateways. So there is def. a Forsaken member there. Likely it is Taim himself from the looks of it. But we shall see. I think the idea of Asha'man warders to Aes Sedai is too juicy for the aes sedai to ignore though. Especially when the full power of Saidan and Saidar is revealed to all.

 

And do the Ashaman have any say in whether or not they will become warders?

 

I would think so yeah. Once everything settles down I could see it as a mutual agreement. I could even see the Black and White tower mending and becoming one. New schools opening training the men and women to channel together, using their weaves cohesively to make everything more power. Same as in the age of legends, only no Madness this time around.

 

Would make the Seachan absolutely useless, even in battle. Asha'man are battle ready Aes Sedai, while in GS you saw how unbattle ready the Aes Sedai are. The Aes Sedai need the Asha'man, that is for certain.

 

There's 3000 years of hate, and fear, and prejudice between the male channellers and Aes Sedai. Even Androl doesn't trust Aes Sedai one bit, and I don't think you need me to tell you what the Aes Sedai think of the Ashaman.

 

The Aes Sedai have also made it clear they don't consider the Ashaman as equals. Do you really think the Ashaman will enter into a partnership with someone who looks down on them?

 

I don't know if the Aes Sedai really need the Ashaman, although they could definitely take a page out of their book and pick it up as far as battle skills go. An intelligent use of circles by the Aes Sedai could allow them to even the ground with the Damane.

 

If by "once everythig settles down" you mean right after the Last Battle, then I think there's very little chance of that happening. However, after some time (decades, probably centuries), old hatreds should fade away, particularly with new unprejudiced generations, and the Ashaman and Aes Sedai might develop closer relations, and eventually unite into a single organisation. Although I dearly hope they keep seperate titles.

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I dont believe the BT and WT will ever merge together due to conflicting ideals (If I were Ashaman I wouldn't want to swear those bloody oaths). My guess though would be they would still work together in some world governing capacity.

 

I think the Oaths should be removed from Aes Sedai post TG. My reasoning is that people are always looking for a hidden meaning or ommision in their words, whereas Wise Ones are respected and trusted without the oaths. This would only work post TG though since the oath rod is required until then to root out dark friends.

 

Or Rand, who can detect dark friends on sight.

 

Of course, post TG, being a dark friend may well be a moot point - kind of like various cultists in todays real world. Disapproved of by general society, even outcast. But ultimately effectively harmless on the large scale.

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I don't think there's any particular need for them to take oaths, but if they do, there's certainly no need for those oaths to shorten their lives.

The Kin 'concept' makes the shortened lives issue kind of moot. The question is; what drove the Aes Sadai to adopt the oaths and are we closer to that kind of world enviroment that lead to them needing to take those oaths? Most people (baring the white cloaks) believe the oaths work, they just have a long history of Aes Sadai getting around them (actually only the tell no lies one is not trusted), a different issue.

 

The accepted method for Aes Sedai. The Wise Ones and Windfinders don't. There is no reason for the Ashaman to take oaths that shorten their lives. In fact the Aes Sedai didn't know that the oaths shortened their lives in the first place. Not to mention the fact that those oaths haven't really worked like they're supposed to anyway.

 

Fair enough really, and ideally no oaths would be best, but the Wise Ones and windfinders aren't such a good example of channalling organisations. The Windfinders are intergrated into a strict hierachy that exist on ships and are seriously limited in what they learn, they call wind. That's their job. And while even Egwene concedes they make fine use of their channellers, they still have a lot to learn, and aren't necessarily set up to play a part in the world at large.

 

The Wise Ones are more like Wisdoms, again, you don't need to channal to be a Wise One, and they owe their existance to the Aiel society itself. Unless the whole world turns Aiel it can't work on any large scale. Look at what happened when they went rogue(the shaido).

 

Both these organisations owe there existance to the society they are in and are limited examples of true channalling 'schools'.

 

 

That's for the Ashaman to choose. Admitedly the fact that they live so much longer than non-channellers probably means they'll end up spending their lives with other channellers, instead of non-channellers who they'll be forced to see die.

 

Grady might disagree. But your right, I simply think they will choose oaths. They are going from dying in a few years to a few hundred, I doubt longevity is an issue for them in the story. I just think they'll see taking oaths as assuming responsibility in a way channallers have been doing for hundreds of years.

 

Yes, and I expect there would eventually be conflict over this. But Elayne herself has admitted that she really doesn't have any power over the BT. The most she can do is refuse them access to Caemlyn, but if an Ashaman wants to in then all he needs to do is take off his black coat, and he looks like anybody else. Ultimately, Elayne could make herself a nuissance, but that's about it. She has no power to force them out. No power to force them to do anything really.

 

I don't know if I'd call permanent conflict with a hosting ruler much of a resolution, that's all. I guess some kind of an agreement could be made, I just don't see this as a satisfying solution. I think the Asha'man need a home (and land) of their own, in Tar valon or not.

 

The Asha'man as warders works in the short term. I personally like the s&m undertones of Narishima's relationship, but I can't see the bonding thing defining the Asha'man's relationship with the world. The ones with wives probably won't want to be bonded.

 

Guard/Protect the/your Aes Sadai does seemed locked in as an Oath though! One down.

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There will be no role for asha'man.

 

The True Source will be blocked. This will happen at the resealing of the bore, where Rand will cut off humanity from the True Source completely to prevent them from going insane.

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The Kin 'concept' makes the shortened lives issue kind of moot. The question is; what drove the Aes Sadai to adopt the oaths and are we closer to that kind of world enviroment that lead to them needing to take those oaths? Most people (baring the white cloaks) believe the oaths work, they just have a long history of Aes Sadai getting around them (actually only the tell no lies one is not trusted), a different issue.

 

The reason the Aes Sedai took the oaths is because people didn't trust them and perhaps even feared them. But the Aes Sedai did not know that the oaths would shorten their lives, and it was entirely their choice to take the oaths. If they didn't want to take them, then the general populace could hardly have forced them to. The Aes Sedai took the oaths because it allowed them to lessen the fears of people in regards to them, which allowed them to carry out their roles as advisors. The Ashaman don't need the people to trust them. And even if they did, the oaths are like a lesser adam. The Damane are leashed because people fear they are too dangerous. Aes Sedai swear oaths for largely the same reasons. But they didn't know that the oaths affected their longevity.

 

Fair enough really, and ideally no oaths would be best, but the Wise Ones and windfinders aren't such a good example of channalling organisations. The Windfinders are intergrated into a strict hierachy that exist on ships and are seriously limited in what they learn, they call wind. That's their job. And while even Egwene concedes they make fine use of their channellers, they still have a lot to learn, and aren't necessarily set up to play a part in the world at large.

 

The Wise Ones are more like Wisdoms, again, you don't need to channal to be a Wise One, and they owe their existance to the Aiel society itself. Unless the whole world turns Aiel it can't work on any large scale. Look at what happened when they went rogue(the shaido).

 

Both these organisations owe there existance to the society they are in and are limited examples of true channalling 'schools'.

 

True, they're all different, but the point is people don't necessarily distrust channellers, just because they're channellers. Regardless the Ashaman don't need people's trust. Where is the incentive for them in taking the oaths? What could possibly be worth giving up half your life?

 

Grady might disagree. But your right, I simply think they will choose oaths. They are going from dying in a few years to a few hundred, I doubt longevity is an issue for them in the story. I just think they'll see taking oaths as assuming responsibility in a way channallers have been doing for hundreds of years.

 

I mean Ashaman who aren't involved with non-channellers. Obviously those like Grady who already have wives will have to live with the fact that they'll long outlive their loved ones.

I just don't see what reason there is for them to swear those kinds of oaths. They can take perfecly regular, non-life shortening oaths, to assume responsibility. Considering how beneficial they can be to society, it would actually be the contrary of responsibility to shorten their lives so much. It's essentialy diminishing the good they could do by half. And just for the sake of... what?

 

Yes, and I expect there would eventually be conflict over this. But Elayne herself has admitted that she really doesn't have any power over the BT. The most she can do is refuse them access to Caemlyn, but if an Ashaman wants to in then all he needs to do is take off his black coat, and he looks like anybody else. Ultimately, Elayne could make herself a nuissance, but that's about it. She has no power to force them out. No power to force them to do anything really.

 

I don't know if I'd call permanent conflict with a hosting ruler much of a resolution, that's all. I guess some kind of an agreement could be made, I just don't see this as a satisfying solution. I think the Asha'man need a home (and land) of their own, in Tar valon or not.

 

I think that if the Ashaman stay despite Elayne's wishes, in the long run, it would be far more beneficial for her and Andor, to have good relations with Andor. It would be at the cost of very little land afterall. A permanent conflict wouldn't matter at all to the Ashaman, whereas to Elayne, not only would it look bad, but again it would deny her the benefits of being on good terms with them.

 

Perhaps if the Ashaman have leading role in defending Caemlyn from the trolloc army, she'll just let them have the land in thanks.

 

The Asha'man as warders works in the short term. I personally like the s&m undertones of Narishima's relationship, but I can't see the bonding thing defining the Asha'man's relationship with the world. The ones with wives probably won't want to be bonded.

 

I don't think it works at all. None of the bonded Ashaman and Aes Sedai have an equal relationship, least of all Narishma and Merise. By nature the Aes Sedai-Warder relationship is an unequal one, and there's way the Ashaman as a whole would accept that. Even besides the fact that it's disrespectful to them, I think they're far to proud to see themselves solely as protectors of Aes Sedai. And that's without getting into the 3000 years of hate, fear, and prejudice.

 

Guard/Protect the/your Aes Sadai does seemed locked in as an Oath though! One down.

 

That's really more of a Warder oath than an Ashaman one though. The reason the Ashaman act like they do toward their Aes Sedai, those that have been bonded by the Aes Sedai that is, is because that's how Warders are supposed to act. In a way, their situation as warders supercedes their situation as Ashaman. At least until Rand steps in. Which is something I doubt the Ashaman as whole are going to accept.

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The Ashaman don't need the people to trust them.

 

You mention this a couple times in the post. Why would the Ashaman not need people to trust them? That seems counterproductive to the long term role you envision for them.

 

As a side note, a long term conflict in a country in which they are essentially squatting would come off far worse on the Ashaman than on Elayne.

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You mention this a couple times in the post. Why would the Ashaman not need people to trust them? That seems counterproductive to the long term role you envision for them.

 

To be honest, I don't really know what their long term role would be. But for now, their role is to fight the Shadow and they don't need people to trust them to do that. And the people they fight alongside would come to trust them anyway.

 

I think that, really they don't need to gain people's trust immediately, because it will come with time, as long as they do good in the world, and don't do anything terrible that would awaken old fears. So perhaps long term they could use people trusting them (not to mention it would make the Ashaman feel better), but that trust will come in the long term.

 

As a side note, a long term conflict in a country in which they are essentially squatting would come off far worse on the Ashaman than on Elayne.

 

I don't think it would harm either of them really. All the Ashaman need to do is take off their black coats and they can pass off for any regular guy (albeit a strangely sweat free guy). Travelling allows them to go anywhere they want, and once their numbers are large enough, even that won't really be all that much of a nuissance.

 

What I was thinking was that the Ashaman have nothing to gain out of good relations with Elayne, apart from officialy owning the land the BT sits on. Whereas Elayne could obviously gain much out of good relations with the Ashaman. All it takes is giving up a tiny bit of land.

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Considering that most people don't believe that an Aes Sedai's oath is binding in the way it is, but suspect them constantly of breaking them when it suits them why would they believe any oath taken by men they consider to be doomed to madness?

 

That alone makes the use of a binding oath irrelevent.

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I think the Asha'Man will be another Warder-esque addition to the Aes Sedai ranks personally. Once the women realize the extreme benefit of working together with men, you will see Asha'man more and more being " bonded " and becoming warders of the women. Less foot soldiers, more power wielding counterparts.

 

Guardian could easily become the staple of the new warder Asha'man. Guardians of their Aes Sedai. While the Aes Sedai are the " protectors of all ". I do not see them taking oaths though, unless the Aes Sedai force that issue.

 

With the future that Avi saw, I HIGHLY doubt the Seachan are left alone in the last book. I fully expect the Aeil and the Aes Sedai to take the battle straight to them. Especially when the 2nd attack occurs on the White Tower. That will be the last straw. Rand will most likely go out and do his thing in the blight, but the rest of the world will send their eyes to the Seachan empire. The risk is far too great to the future of the world to allow that empire to keep gaining strength while the rest of the worlds attention is on the last battle.

 

There is of course a small matter of Matt and his " relationship " with the Empress. He could somehow talk her into changing the ways of the Seachan, atleast on the surface. And what happens if the secret of the Damane and Sul'Dam are revealed to the whole of the empire? That is something Matt could easily do without think much on the matter.

 

Then of course there is Moraine. She will have a major role. I think it will be Moraine and Nyneave with Rand in the end. Both of those women he trusts above all others.

 

I for one am incredibly excited about all the potential of Book 14. So many different things COULD happen. I for one really do hope that the Seachan get absolutely crushed in the last book with no hope of Avi's future coming to pass.

 

Asha'man though. They are already infiltrated by a Dreamspike or lance or whatever, which is causing the problem with gateways. So there is def. a Forsaken member there. Likely it is Taim himself from the looks of it. But we shall see. I think the idea of Asha'man warders to Aes Sedai is too juicy for the aes sedai to ignore though. Especially when the full power of Saidan and Saidar is revealed to all.

 

And do the Ashaman have any say in whether or not they will become warders?

 

I would think so yeah. Once everything settles down I could see it as a mutual agreement. I could even see the Black and White tower mending and becoming one. New schools opening training the men and women to channel together, using their weaves cohesively to make everything more power. Same as in the age of legends, only no Madness this time around.

 

Would make the Seachan absolutely useless, even in battle. Asha'man are battle ready Aes Sedai, while in GS you saw how unbattle ready the Aes Sedai are. The Aes Sedai need the Asha'man, that is for certain.

The Aes Sedai Warder bond is hardly equal. When Mirelle/Merelle (name?) bonded Narishma, she took away his Dragon pin because she stated to Cads that he had to learn to obey her commands and that they were the only thing that mattered.

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The Aes Sedai Warder bond is hardly equal. When Mirelle/Merelle (name?) bonded Narishma, she took away his Dragon pin because she stated to Cads that he had to learn to obey her commands and that they were the only thing that mattered.

 

Yeah the bonds aren't equal at all really. If Narishma held an Ashaman style bond on Myrelle he could use "the extra bit" as compulsion to force her to obey his commands with a thought instead of resorting to tactics like that.

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The Aes Sedai Warder bond is hardly equal. When Mirelle/Merelle (name?) bonded Narishma, she took away his Dragon pin because she stated to Cads that he had to learn to obey her commands and that they were the only thing that mattered.

 

Yeah the bonds aren't equal at all really. If Narishma held an Ashaman style bond on Myrelle he could use "the extra bit" as compulsion to force her to obey his commands with a thought instead of resorting to tactics like that.

There are two types of Ashamen warder bonds, the ones they place on their wives. No conditions. And the ones they place on the Aes Sedai, the extra bit refers to obeying their orders (compulsion) because the Aes Sedai would either escape or kill them in their sleep. I'll paraphrase here, Logain says that he could do without the extra bit, but the Aes Sedai (Toveine I think) was clearly not a wife. Since she was not a wife, but rather a danger to society, she required an extra component to the bond.

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The Aes Sedai Warder bond is hardly equal. When Mirelle/Merelle (name?) bonded Narishma, she took away his Dragon pin because she stated to Cads that he had to learn to obey her commands and that they were the only thing that mattered.

 

Yeah the bonds aren't equal at all really. If Narishma held an Ashaman style bond on Myrelle he could use "the extra bit" as compulsion to force her to obey his commands with a thought instead of resorting to tactics like that.

There are two types of Ashamen warder bonds, the ones they place on their wives. No conditions. And the ones they place on the Aes Sedai, the extra bit refers to obeying their orders (compulsion) because the Aes Sedai would either escape or kill them in their sleep. I'll paraphrase here, Logain says that he could do without the extra bit, but the Aes Sedai (Toveine I think) was clearly not a wife. Since she was not a wife, but rather a danger to society, she required an extra component to the bond.

 

Right, the Ashaman style bond has the "extra bit" of compulsion. Thats what makes it diff then the one Myrelle holds.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

I've asked this before but I wonder who they experimented on to figure it these other things if not their wives? Is their other female captives at the BT?

 

Although the AS have a lesser component that is looked down upon that takes channeling spirit, and would most likely not work on a strong channeler like Narishma. Also Toveine was a danger to society? You mean to the Ashaman she was sent to kill?

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The Aes Sedai Warder bond is hardly equal. When Mirelle/Merelle (name?) bonded Narishma, she took away his Dragon pin because she stated to Cads that he had to learn to obey her commands and that they were the only thing that mattered.

 

Yeah the bonds aren't equal at all really. If Narishma held an Ashaman style bond on Myrelle he could use "the extra bit" as compulsion to force her to obey his commands with a thought instead of resorting to tactics like that.

There are two types of Ashamen warder bonds, the ones they place on their wives. No conditions. And the ones they place on the Aes Sedai, the extra bit refers to obeying their orders (compulsion) because the Aes Sedai would either escape or kill them in their sleep. I'll paraphrase here, Logain says that he could do without the extra bit, but the Aes Sedai (Toveine I think) was clearly not a wife. Since she was not a wife, but rather a danger to society, she required an extra component to the bond.

 

Right, the Ashaman style bond has the "extra bit" of compulsion. Thats what makes it diff then the one Myrelle holds.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

I've asked this before but I wonder who they experimented on to figure it these other things if not their wives? Is their other female captives at the BT?

 

Although the AS have a lesser component that is looked down upon that takes channeling spirit, and would most likely not work on a strong channeler like Narishma. Also Toveine was a danger to society? You mean to the Ashaman she was sent to kill?

Yes Toveine is a danger, the letter from Elaida stated to kill all the Ashamen and hang everyone else. Everyone else in the Black Tower includes merchants, women, and children. Hence society. The options were either kill the Aes Sedai, or capture. Since it is improbable to constantly shield some 50 Aes Sedai, compelling them to not harm anybody or try to escape is the only option other than death. Unless you think they should of just been set free... Whereas, Narishma accepted a warder bond, I doubt he realized that he was gonna lose his free will in the process.

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Yes Toveine is a danger, the letter from Elaida stated to kill all the Ashamen and hang everyone else. Everyone else in the Black Tower includes merchants, women, and children. Hence society. The options were either kill the Aes Sedai, or capture. Since it is improbable to constantly shield some 50 Aes Sedai, compelling them to not harm anybody or try to escape is the only option other than death. Unless you think they should of just been set free... Whereas, Narishma accepted a warder bond, I doubt he realized that he was gonna lose his free will in the process.

 

Errmmm Toveine has been fighting side by side with Logain and helping Rand for quite some time. Do you really think Toveine is still looking to fulfill Elaida's crazy Fain influenced order which has been acknowledged as a mistake. Don't think she can rightly be called a danger to society as this point. In fact her and Pevara will likely play a role in saving the BT.

 

As for Narishman is their evidence Myrelle has been using compulsion on him? Any free will lost was handed over by his own actions. As RJ said the component in the AS warder bond would not work on a strong male channeler. I mean seriously, she witheld his Dragon pins and that's stealing his free will? LOL He is a man who could stand up to her any time he wanted, there is nothing forcing him.

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I've asked this before but I wonder who they experimented on to figure it these other things if not their wives? Is their other female captives at the BT?

 

Who knows. Maybe some Ashaman grew desperate to keep his wife and tried to compel her. Or maybe they developed it just for the Aes Sedai. Maybe Taim showed them how to use compulsion, as he ordered the bonding of the Aes Sedai. Or maybe, as compulsion is a common trick that is developed by channellers, they already had an idea of how to do it.

 

Errmmm Toveine has been fighting side by side with Logain and helping Rand for quite some time. Do you really think Toveine is still looking to fulfill Elaida's crazy Fain influenced order which has been acknowledged as a mistake. Don't think she can rightly be called a danger to society as this point. In fact her and Pevara will likely play a role in saving the BT.

 

The last time we had a PoV from Toveine or Gabrelle, it was clear they and the rest of the bonded Aes Sedai were still looking to harm the BT from the inside.

 

As for Narishman is their evidence Myrelle has been using compulsion on him? Any free will lost was handed over by his own actions. As RJ said the component in the AS warder bond would not work on a strong male channeler. I mean seriously, she witheld his Dragon pins and that's stealing his free will? LOL He is a man who could stand up to her any time he wanted, there is nothing forcing him.

 

No, their isn't, and honestly I doubt she has. Of course she was stronger than Narishma in CoT, so she may still be able to. And while she certainly didn't force him to become her warder, he probably only did it to protect himself from the other Ashaman at the BT who, at that point, thought he, Flinn, and Eben, had tried to kill Rand.

 

I don't think the issue is that she's stealing his free will. Like you said, he could stand up to her at any time, but then so can any other warder. The issue is the way she treats him. She used him as a servant in WH and ordered him into a freaking corner. And yes she took away his dragon pin, which may seem like nothing, but is basically her saying "You're not Ashaman unless I say you are". She treats him like she would a regular warder, at best, and that's not an equal relationship.

 

Yes Toveine is a danger, the letter from Elaida stated to kill all the Ashamen and hang everyone else. Everyone else in the Black Tower includes merchants, women, and children. Hence society. The options were either kill the Aes Sedai, or capture. Since it is improbable to constantly shield some 50 Aes Sedai, compelling them to not harm anybody or try to escape is the only option other than death. Unless you think they should of just been set free... Whereas, Narishma accepted a warder bond, I doubt he realized that he was gonna lose his free will in the process.

 

I don't think they were ordered to kill the women and children. Just all the men. Which may include young boys, but I hope not.

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Who knows. Maybe some Ashaman grew desperate to keep his wife and tried to compel her. Or maybe they developed it just for the Aes Sedai. Maybe Taim showed them how to use compulsion, as he ordered the bonding of the Aes Sedai. Or maybe, as compulsion is a common trick that is developed by channellers, they already had an idea of how to do it.

 

But RJ specifically says

 

Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

So "extra bit" is not a common trick used by all channelers, nor was it something Taim showed them.

 

The last time we had a PoV from Toveine or Gabrelle, it was clear they and the rest of the bonded Aes Sedai were still looking to harm the BT from the inside.

 

But the last we have seen from Toveine she has denounced Elaida to the Red Ajah informing them of the debacle, fought at Lord Algarins Manor, and was back up during the fake meeting with Tuon. Since she is accompanying Logain she will likely play a role along with Pevara of bringing down Taim. Do you truly think after all that she is a danger to society and is just biding her time to turn on and kill Ashaman?

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The last time we had a PoV from Toveine or Gabrelle, it was clear they and the rest of the bonded Aes Sedai were still looking to harm the BT from the inside.

 

But the last we have seen from Toveine she has denounced Elaida to the Red Ajah informing them of the debacle, fought at Lord Algarins Manor, and was back up during the fake meeting with Tuon. Since she is accompanying Logain she will likely play a role along with Pevara of bringing down Taim. Do you truly think after all that she is a danger to society and is just biding her time to turn on and kill Ashaman?

 

Has she done all that of her own free will? I have no doubt that she sees no problem with fighting the Shadow, but her and the rest of the Aes Sedai, who were bonded's plan for the BT was left hanging in WH, or CoT. Since then we've never had another PoV from her or any of the other bonded Aes Sedai. I don't think she's a danger to society, but considering her cooperation with Logain and the Ashaman was never of her own choice, I think it would be best to remain weary of what they're planning.

 

Who knows. Maybe some Ashaman grew desperate to keep his wife and tried to compel her. Or maybe they developed it just for the Aes Sedai. Maybe Taim showed them how to use compulsion, as he ordered the bonding of the Aes Sedai. Or maybe, as compulsion is a common trick that is developed by channellers, they already had an idea of how to do it.

 

But RJ specifically says

 

Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

So "extra bit" is not a common trick used by all channelers, nor was it something Taim showed them.

 

Well, then either they came up with a theory on how to do it and tried it out on the Aes Sedai, or else an Ashaman actually tried to use it on his wife (or any other woman I suppose), for whatever reasons, and that's how the Ashaman learned it.

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There is no evidence that the Asha'man used compulsion on their wives. None at all. At most there is the implication that they did, which by itself still doesn't prove anything.

 

In addition, Narishma and the other Asha'man who allowed themselves to be bonded were blackmailed into it by Cadsuane. She says so in her POV, though I don't have the books with me so I can't give the exact quote.

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I believe Taim had little to do with the bonding. He was upset that it happened at all, logain encouraged it.

 

I have only ever hear the white cloaks truely doubt the three oaths, the distrust comes from never being privy to the Aes Sadai's intents. The oaths as such work but the Aes Sadai have been corrupted, by themselves and complacency and Ishmael.I don't think even (or especially depending on your point of veiw)Egwene is done learning this yet.

 

I agree in disliking the whole 'handling' of the men in general by Cadsuane and Marise (though its just another example of the matriachal attitudes that crop up in the book), but i've never believed Narishima was completely under the thumb, his angry outburst in rebel camp is one example.

 

In perspective; this world is not one of equality but balance, power is held over other people, the theme seems to be intent. Marise (and Cadsuane!) are much older than most people including all the Asha'man, you don't treat children as equals. Narishima is a hot headed young man, and a bit of guidences might do him good, providing Marise isn't so blind as to ignore the value of his free will.

 

I think it was funny when one of the Forsakan comments (with a twist of contempt) on how the Aes Sadai still bind themselves like criminals...aside from being evil the forsakan,don't understand the world they are in, it's rather barbaric in many necessary ways.

 

The Damane are the ultimate corruption of this kind of binding. But binding oaths and bondings are harsh in some ways and noble in others. they suit the world around them.

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The way Isee things playing out is:

The BT is clensed by Logain then the Asha'men go and rescue Caemlyn.

Elayne ceed's the land of the BT to the Asha'men as a reward.

The BT and WT stay seperate but a joined by council with the Amerlyn and M'heal as equals. Logain sits on the Amerlyn seat as a gesture of the fact that he and Egweene are equals.

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I believe Taim had little to do with the bonding. He was upset that it happened at all, logain encouraged it.

 

No he wasn't, he's the one who ordered the bonding in the first place. He probably would have prefered to kill them, but as Rand had made it clear no Aes Sedai was to be harmed, he ordered them bonded instead. And he passed it off as an order from Rand. However, Taim was probably upset that Logain bonded two of them, or even one of them, as Logain is a danger to him.

 

The way Isee things playing out is:

The BT is clensed by Logain then the Asha'men go and rescue Caemlyn.

Elayne ceed's the land of the BT to the Asha'men as a reward.

The BT and WT stay seperate but a joined by council with the Amerlyn and M'heal as equals. Logain sits on the Amerlyn seat as a gesture of the fact that he and Egweene are equals.

 

Well I agree up to, and including, the BT and the WT staying seperate. The rest I can't see happening, particularly Logain sitting on the Amyrlin Seat.

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