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Elan Morin Tedronai or Mierin Eronaile?


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"No one can walk in the shadow so long they cannot come back to the light." With this in mind, and the knowledge that Jordan wraps up his themes fairly reliably, who is more likely to come back to the light? Elan Morin Tedronai or Mierin Eronaile? They both have a chance to: Meirin due to a complex mix of love for Lews Therin, shame and regret for what she's done, and perhaps the realization that the DO sucks...and Elan due primarily to his link with Rand, perhaps some regret, and maybe a huge philosophical realization brought on by conversation with Zen Rand perhaps in a dream. I think one of these two will play a huge role for the light. Thoughts?

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How I see it.

 

Mierin doesn't and never did love LTT, her level of narcissism renders her incapable of it. She only loves herself and power. LTT was just something she couldn't have and it became her obsession, not love.

 

Elan on the other hand, has never been about power for himself, it's been about ending the cycle he has been in, more importantly that he seems to know he has been in since the beginning of time.

 

Elan turned to the shadow, not out of spite or power but out of logic. He simply wants it all to end, he wants a final rest so to speak.

I am convinced that if Rand shows him a way to end the cycle without the Dark One winning, he will take it.

 

tSG chapter 15 is a very good read into Elan's/Moridin's psyche and why he turned to the shadow imo.

Edited by Finnssss
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How I see it.

 

Mierin doesn't and never did love LTT, her level of narcissism renders her incapable of it. She only loves herself and power. LTT was just something she couldn't have and it became her obsession, not love.

 

Elan on the other hand, has never been about power for himself, it's been about ending the cycle he has been in, more importantly that he seems to know he has been in since the beginning of time.

 

Elan turned to the shadow, not out of spite or power but out of logic. He simply wants it all to end, he wants a final rest so to speak.

I am convinced that if Rand shows him a way to end the cycle without the Dark One winning, he will take it.

 

tSG chapter 15 is a very good read into Elan's/Moridin's psyche and why he turned to the shadow imo.

 

Completely agree with this. The fact is Lanfear just isn't a nice person so I see no reason for her to return to the the Light. She might renounce the Shadow, but that doesn't mean she'll stop being an evil bitch who'll do whatever it takes to get ahead. If she does have some sort of redemption it will seem very inplausable to me and I'll be very disappointed. Morridin I could understand.

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Lanfear loved Rand?

 

TSR, Ch. 9

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even deny it, she's just shocked he remembered.

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I like Graendal for a traitor to the Shadow after what Shadar Haren did to her (and because I hope she does something to make her surviving Rand's attack worth it).

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Lanfear loved Rand?

 

TSR, Ch. 9

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even deny it, she's just shocked he remembered.

 

Umm...the very next thing she says is to deny it. She is shocked because Rand is talking as though he were LTT.

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Guest PiotrekS

Lanfear loved Rand?

 

TSR, Ch. 9

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even deny it, she's just shocked he remembered.

TFOH52:

"Your name is Lanfear, and I'll die before I love one of the Forsaken."

 

Something that might have been anguish crossed her face; then it was a marble mask once more. "If you are not mine," she said coldly, "then you are dead."

 

I still hope Lanfear is not so one-dimensional and her crazy heart actually holds a little love for Rand/LTT, just next to a desire to kill him obviously.

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I like Graendal for a traitor to the Shadow after what Shadar Haren did to her (and because I hope she does something to make her surviving Rand's attack worth it).

 

 

Have to agree, lanfears to selfish and moridin is just so dammed evil. He might of joined the shadow for reasons of logic but he seems to take real pleasure in the thought of everything ending. Graendal is the only viable choice for a redeemed forsaken.

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Graendal's POV in ToM make it difficult to believe she could switch sides, although she thinks to herself that there had been a time when she'd felt sorrow for her dark deeds. What I think is more important, she thinks that Ishamael felt it too...

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You have to look at the back story and events surrounding each of them to really judge whether or not they will return to the light.

 

Graendal - No chance. She has never showed a shred of humanity or any positive virtues whatsoever. People just seem to like her character and hope that she doesn't vanish forever. She most definitely will. She is 100% evil and bad without any slips. I dont see how this character could ever turn to the light with honesty and not just jump ship from a losing side.

 

Moridin - This is plausible. We know that he was once a good man and we know why he turned to the shadow. However, you need to take into context a lot of what is in the story about him. For 3000+ years he has done unspeakable evil. He is being possessed by the DO through the use of the true power (so we suspect at least...see the last book and how he sounds like the DO to Graendal). He is essentially being setup as the ultimate bad guy and the most evil being in the series. How can you set this guy up to turn to the Light all of a sudden? He may have a brief moment of redemption at the end, but it will surely be brief and he surely will die. I personally do not suspect anything but maybe a last "Maybe you're right..." before he dies at the end. This guy is the ultimate bad guy and the entire book is operating under the plots and guidelines that he has set in motion over 3000 years. There will likely be a huge reveal on Moridin and what hes been up to over the course of 3000 years in setting this whole thing up, but I don't feel he has much of a chance to turn to the light. He is the antithesis of the Dragon; perhaps a past champion of the light who has turned to the shadow.

 

Lanfear - As I've argued before, she has a really great shot of turning to the light. It's been stated clearly that she was not always evil, the vast majority of her actions in the series have actually been to aid Rand and his allies, she has rarely even killed or performed an evil deed that we see directly, she openly conspires against not only the other Forsaken but the DO, and she opened the bore. And now, she is a slave to Moridin and very unhappy. Also - some mysterious things happened with her offscreen that have yet to be revealed. Lanfear is PERFECTLY setup to go over to the Light in some fashion. It would be terribly disappointing and boring for her to come back to life after her "death" only to generically try to kill Rand again and fail. She was brought back for a reason and all of the "she was once good" and "she opened the bore" crap from her past was revealed to us for a reason - so that when she comes back to the Light she will be accepted by the readers. The only major piece of evidence against Lanfears redemption is her POV during the cleansing when she clearly wants to kill Rand without any remorse. And this is a major and valid argument against this theory...so it's all up in the air still. I see her as perfectly poised to return to the light, but her POV severely detracts from her being open to that.

 

Perhaps nobody will return to the light?

Edited by Mark D
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Charn said Lanfear wasn't always evil. RJ said she was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before she drilled the Bore. Which one are you going to believe? And besides, all Charn meant is that she wasn't always on the side of the Shadow. Good/evil is pretty black and white in WoT, but not that black and white.

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Lanfear loved Rand?

 

TSR, Ch. 9

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

 

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true — he knew they were true — but where had they come from?

Selene — Lanfear — seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even deny it, she's just shocked he remembered.

 

Umm...the very next thing she says is to deny it. She is shocked because Rand is talking as though he were LTT.

 

Ummm no she doesn't.

 

TSR Ch 9

Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly. "You've learned much – you have done much I'd not have believed you could, unaided – but you are still, fumbling your way through a maze in the dark, and your ignorance may kill you. Some of the others fear you too much to wait. Sammael, Rahvin, Moghedien. Others, perhaps, but those of a certainty. They will come after you. They will not try to turn your heart. They will come at you by stealth, destroy you while you sleep. Because of their fear. But there are those who could teach you, show you what you once knew. None would dare oppose you then."

 

and then she goes on to try and convince him to kneel to the DO so they can have more power. My point stands. She doesn't even try to deny it, and then goes on to focus on power which is what she truly loves.

Edited by Suttree
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When you say redeem, do you mean simply join the Light because that person sees that they're on the losing side and they want to save themselves, or do you mean having a real, honest change of heart and truly feeling remorse? Because those aren't the same.

 

The only one I consider to be even remotely possible of the second option, is Moridin. But the chance of him doing that is incredibly small in my opinion. He's way too far in, and way too convinced that the DO is right. If any of the Foraken survive the Last Battle, it won't be by joining the Light, it'll be by escaping the whole thing. Greandal is probably the one who is the most likely to achieve that. Demandred and Lanfear are too focused on Rand, and I won't even bother with Moridin.

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I find either proposition unlikely although at least with respect to Lanfear there is a plausible catalyst for her to give up her former cause. As for Ishamael reforming, the idea is so dubious and countered by so many prophecies and visions as to make me question where the genesis for this line of thinking comes from.

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I doubt Moridin will turn. He might have a change of heart, but if anything, IMO it would be along the lines of "I cant win" and not "Ok Im going to help Rand." It wouldnt be a morality thing, itd be a philosophical thing, as in, the world is still here after an eternity, therefor the Shadow winning has already been proven to be pretty much impossible

 

I dont care what happens to Lanfear

Edited by Drekka Mort
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I find either proposition unlikely although at least with respect to Lanfear there is a plausible catalyst for her to give up her former cause. As for Ishamael reforming, the idea is so dubious and countered by so many prophecies and visions as to make me question where the genesis for this line of thinking comes from.

 

 

Ok, now I'm curious.

Which visions and prophecies do you feel pertain to Elan/Ishamael/Moridin?

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I doubt Moridin will turn. He might have a change of heart, but if anything, IMO it would be along the lines of "I cant win" and not "Ok Im going to help Rand." It wouldnt be a morality thing, itd be a philosophical thing, as in, the world is still here after an eternity, therefor the Shadow winning has already been proven to be pretty much impossible

Maybe if the Dark One weren't touching his brain directly.

 

I dont care what happens to Lanfear

+1

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I really dont see why so many people think Graendal might turn. Or rather why so many people want her to turn...she is maybe the most evil of all the Forsaken. Maybe we've just seen enough of her POV that people like her character? Idk, but I see not even the slightest chance that she will turn to the light. I see her trying to jump ship because she is in a bad place with the shadow, but never to legitimately turn back to the light.

Edited by Mark D
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Charn said Lanfear wasn't always evil. RJ said she was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before she drilled the Bore. Which one are you going to believe? And besides, all Charn meant is that she wasn't always on the side of the Shadow. Good/evil is pretty black and white in WoT, but not that black and white.

 

Which am I going to believe....? You realize both comments were made by RJ, right? One was by a character in the book that he wrote to further a plotline, and the other was an offhand comment.

 

Secondly, they are not mutually exclusive. Being ripe for the shadows plucking does not mean she was not a good person prior to the bore. In fact, saying that she was ripe for the shadow's plucking very clearly implies that the shadow made an advance and took her from the side of the light. Not that I particularly am saying that she was forcibly turned or tricked into joining or anything like that, but the comment is very suggestive that Mierin was not a bad person as much as she had personality flaws that opened her to being a victim of the shadow. And as we are learning in the later books, the Forsaken all appear to be nothing more than victims themselves - fools who were tricked into serving the DO and believing lies about immortality and neverending power. Moridin is the only one on board with the real plan. That Lanfear comment by RJ could actually very strongly support the Lanfear turning to the light theory.

 

Thirdly, how are you in a position to tell us what Charn meant better than anyone else? He does not specify. He may have meant that she was just not always on the side of the shadow and he may have meant that she was legitimately good. It was very likely intentionally left ambiguous by RJ to further the Lanfear plot and to leave some mystery to the character while she was "helping" Rand. She was very active in the story during this part of the series.

 

The other outcome that I see as possible is that the DO's true plan is going to become evident to the Forsaken left and they are almost all going to start trying to jump ship and turn from the Shadow. Though I am sure most will be too late and end up dying, etc. I see this as entirely possible for Moghedien, Lanfear, Graendal, Moridin. Somehow I doubt Demandred will ever turn. This would certainly give the title of the last book some meaning. But...I would place this in the unlikely category as this type of writing doesn't seem to be RJ's style.

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Charn said Lanfear wasn't always evil. RJ said she was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before she drilled the Bore. Which one are you going to believe? And besides, all Charn meant is that she wasn't always on the side of the Shadow. Good/evil is pretty black and white in WoT, but not that black and white.

 

Which am I going to believe....? You realize both comments were made by RJ, right?

No, one was made by a character. And as RJ so often reminds us...

 

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Charn said Lanfear wasn't always evil. RJ said she was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before she drilled the Bore. Which one are you going to believe? And besides, all Charn meant is that she wasn't always on the side of the Shadow. Good/evil is pretty black and white in WoT, but not that black and white.

 

Which am I going to believe....? You realize both comments were made by RJ, right?

No, one was made by a character. And as RJ so often reminds us...

 

 

Im glad you posted that Terez. Cheers

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The character was written by RJ. Therefor, both comments were made by him - just one was through the voice of a character. It is possible that the character was wrong, but we cannot assume he is wrong until something else in the series proves this wrong or unless corrected by RJ himself. We are forced to take what is written in the series as law until we are given contradicting information elsewhere in the story.

 

RJ never said that Mierin was evil. He said she was ripe for the shadow's plucking - which as I noted in the previous post can be interpreted to fit several different meanings. I interpret that to indicate that she had serious personality flaws and moral weaknesses that opened her more easily to being duped into service by the Shadow. It is important to note that nearly every follower of the Shadow is duped and tricked into serving. They are all promised rewards that we now know are entirely false.

 

So using the RJ quote to prove Charn incorrect is not really appropriate. I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly RJ made this specific comment in relation to a discussion that Mierin may have been turned somehow against her will through the act or aftermath of opening the bore. He seemed to be commenting that Mierin was screwed up prior to the bore ever being drilled and long before the bore possessed the characteristics of someone who may have turned to the shadow.

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Guest PiotrekS

I like to think that Lanfear wasn't all evil in the past. After all, she was in a relationship with LTT for some time and since he was able to resist the Shadow, I would say he was a person with a strong moral compass. I don't think he saw in her only her beauty. She definitely had weaknesses, especially thirst for power, which later , coupled with rejection by LTT, made her turn to the dark side and prompted her to degenerate more and more.

 

She was also an recognized researcher and worked with Beidamon on their great project (which later turned out to be drilling the Bore). I think she would not be accepted by co-workers and allowed to take part in a crucial project if she was as crazy as we know her. Again, she was not a master of deception and her tantrums were rather obvious to see later on, so I don't think she would be able to stay all nice while secretely plotting for the Shadow.

 

Certain loyalty Charn felt to Lanfear would be difficult to explain if she'd been the evil, crazy person from the start. We've seen that Lanfear's craziness was easy to notice even when she was trying to be nice.

 

After all, good/evil as applied to people is extremely simplistic. It would be nice if we could see some more sophisticated psychology and internal conflicts in the last book - and who is better situated to provide those than Lanfear?

 

It is interesting that RJ ruled out that Lanfear had been forcibly turned with his quote about "being ripe for Shadow's plucking", but he did not explain whether she intended to free the DO or whether she joined the Shadow later. I think the latter option is more probable, because before the Bore there'd been no way to contact the DO and feel his influence.

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While the arguments for Lanfear and Moridin reverting to the Light are fair, I've just been thinking for a long time that it will be Fain who achieves the 180.

 

Another theory I have is that Rand will turn dark again and subsequently save the world at the last minute because he has a memory of light, hence the book title.

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