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Aes Sedai Bonded!

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I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to all the Aes Sedai that Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai. It's not much different from Aes Sedai bonding Warders. I figured everyone was used to change considering the Last Battle is approaching. I just can't figure out why it's such a big deal.

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I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to all the Aes Sedai that Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai. It's not much different from Aes Sedai bonding Warders. I figured everyone was used to change considering the Last Battle is approaching. I just can't figure out why it's such a big deal.

 

To the Aes Sedai, it's similar to a president/ruler acting as a servant to another country's president/ruler or even to something lower than that, such as an average foreigner. That is the highness of the opinion they have of themselves.

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Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

Edited by Vam

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More than that. You have to remember this is a culture which has bred utter revulsion and disgust, not to mention terror, at the thought of a man channeling. It isn't unique to Aes Sedai, but rather the entire cultural identity is based on the idea that men channeling is as bad as the Shadow itself. In that context, it isn't surprising that Aes Sedai would react the way they do with anything concerning an Asha'man. When you add the fact that bonding is inherently a very intimate act, it is even more against the grain so to speak.

 

Of course, there is what Hadilmir said. The culture within the White Tower breeds arrogance. The entire process from novice to Aes Sedai is an indoctrination process to make the women of the Tower identify themselves with the White Tower above all else, and to identify the White Tower as the primary source of good, justice, and Light in the world. Within the Tower, bonding isn't a hierarchically equal thing. Aes Sedai are above their Warders, and Warders are expected to give their lives for their Aes Sedai. That is part of the Youngling indoctrination.

 

So to have Asha'man bond Aes Sedai just goes against everything the Aes Sedai has been taught. From every aspect of their lives, they're taught that every part of a male bonding a woman is wrong. It is no surprise they react the way they do.

 

even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

 

What do you mean "attempting?" She flat out bonded him without consent. Which is what causes a lot of Alanna's alienation from the rest of the Aes Sedai. They regard her with disgust.

Edited by Roxinos

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I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to all the Aes Sedai that Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai. It's not much different from Aes Sedai bonding Warders. I figured everyone was used to change considering the Last Battle is approaching. I just can't figure out why it's such a big deal.

 

To the Aes Sedai, it's similar to a president/ruler acting as a servant to another country's president/ruler or even to something lower than that, such as an average foreigner. That is the highness of the opinion they have of themselves.

 

Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

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Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

Good point, a king kneeling to a foreign leprous madman then. It seems wrong on so many levels.

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Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

Good point, a king kneeling to a foreign leprous madman then. It seems wrong on so many levels.

 

Because the thought of it being distasteful kneeling to a foreign leprous madman would take precedent over actually having to share his madness and disease?

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Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

Good point, a king kneeling to a foreign leprous madman then. It seems wrong on so many levels.

 

Because the thought of it being distasteful kneeling to a foreign leprous madman would take precedent over actually having to share his madness and disease?

Well let's see how long you can be a dutiful servant to a leprous madman before catching leprosy and going mad (Ignoring that most people are immune to leprosy, of course). The fact that you were/are a king is just added insult, really. :tongue:

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Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

Good point, a king kneeling to a foreign leprous madman then. It seems wrong on so many levels.

 

Because the thought of it being distasteful kneeling to a foreign leprous madman would take precedent over actually having to share his madness and disease?

I think it could be more like finding out your sister has just been made a sex slave to a leprous madman. Being a part of the WT seems to run in order of a Fraternal Organization, they may not like each others decisions or even personalities but they do put up a front and keep the perception of a tower united and aloof(except for that whole splitting up part).

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Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

 

 

They should have killed them directly and spare them the terror.

They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

I was surprised Taim didn't just killed them all, cut their heads and sent them in a basket to the WT.

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Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

Good point, a king kneeling to a foreign leprous madman then. It seems wrong on so many levels.

 

Because the thought of it being distasteful kneeling to a foreign leprous madman would take precedent over actually having to share his madness and disease?

Well let's see how long you can be a dutiful servant to a leprous madman before catching leprosy and going mad (Ignoring that most people are immune to leprosy, of course). The fact that you were/are a king is just added insult, really. :tongue:

Not to mention that when this Foreign leprous madman is doomed to die and when he does die you will be thrown into a suicidal rage and want be forced kill yourself, unless your bond is passed to another insane Foriegn Leprous Man.

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They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

 

Elaida's direct command was to take the non Asha'man alive.

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Don't mind Aiel, he wants all the Aes Sedai dead ;)

 

The leprous man analogy seems like a good one though. Just add to it that a short time earlier, one of the main goals of the Aes Sedai was to capture and gentle men who could channel. i.e. capture and heal the mad, leprous men with a process that doomed them to die, in order to prevent them from harming others. Except now there are hundreds of them, they have gathered, and when you try to go capture them anyways, they catch you and make you slaves.

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I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to all the Aes Sedai that Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai. It's not much different from Aes Sedai bonding Warders. I figured everyone was used to change considering the Last Battle is approaching. I just can't figure out why it's such a big deal.

 

To the Aes Sedai, it's similar to a president/ruler acting as a servant to another country's president/ruler or even to something lower than that, such as an average foreigner. That is the highness of the opinion they have of themselves.

 

Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

 

 

Except that even after Ny told Egwene and Siuan that saiden is clean, Egwene still is upset about AS being bonded to Asha'man and thinks of it as a crime Rand must answer for.

Edited by XXX47

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They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

 

Elaida's direct command was to take the non Asha'man alive.

 

 

Actually, her orders were to kill everyone on sight. And then hang even the bodies.

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They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

 

Elaida's direct command was to take the non Asha'man alive.

 

 

Actually, her orders were to kill everyone on sight. And then hang even the bodies.

 

I can't remember did she specify non-channelers/family or did she assume it was just a few crazed men at the BT?

 

This really highlights how terrible of an Amrylin she was, although people should note Saidin was still tainted at this point so the Red's were in someways doing their duty. I wonder if the decision was influenced a bit by Elaida being involved in "The Vileness" and already having been involved with something similar.

Edited by Suttree

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They went to the BT to kill all the Asha'man, servants, wives, children, etc.

 

Elaida's direct command was to take the non Asha'man alive.

 

 

Actually, her orders were to kill everyone on sight. And then hang even the bodies.

 

I can't remember did she specify non-channelers/family or did she assume it was just a few crazed men at the BT?

 

This really highlights how terrible of an Amrylin she was, although people should note Saidin was still tainted at this point so the Red's were in someways doing their duty. I wonder if the decision was influenced a bit by Elaida being involved in "The Vileness" and already having been involved with something similar.

 

 

Maybe I was a little rash in saying children and all, but Elaida was ranting about the BT and we have Toveine's thought about the orders.

 

The silly Brown nattered on as she carried out her domestic tasks like a contented farmwife. “I’ve learned a good deal already. Logain is the only full Asha’man to live here in this village. The others all live in Taim’s ‘palace.’ They have servants, but Logain hired the wife of a man in training to cook and clean for him. She’ll be here soon, and she thinks he put the sun in the sky, so we best be done talking anything important by then. He found your lapdesk.”

 

Toveine felt as though an icy hand had seized her throat. She tried to hide it, but Gabrelle was looking straight at her.

 

“He burned it, Toveine. After reading the contents. He seemed to think he had done us a favor.”

 

The hand eased, and Toveine could breathe again. “Elaida’s order was among my papers.” She cleared her throat to rid herself of hoarseness. Elaida’s order to gentle every man found here and then hang them on the spot, without the trial in Tar Valon required by Tower law. “She imposed harsh conditions, and these men would have reacted harshly, if they knew.” In spite of the heat from the stove, she shivered. That single paper could have gotten them all stilled and hanged. “Why would he do us favors?”

 

 

Now, Toveine was involved in the gentling and/or killing on the spot 20 years ago, and she received penace.

Since she's talking about 'stilling and hanging', I believe she is talking about what the WT would do if they follow the orders on that paper.

If the Ashaman wanted them dead, why bother to still them first? Only the WT does that, in extreme cases.

So if the order was to only gentle the Ashaman on the spot and hang them, the penalty would be a little lighter, like the last time she did the same.

Especially since they were following the order of the Amyrlin.

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I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to all the Aes Sedai that Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai. It's not much different from Aes Sedai bonding Warders. I figured everyone was used to change considering the Last Battle is approaching. I just can't figure out why it's such a big deal.

 

To the Aes Sedai, it's similar to a president/ruler acting as a servant to another country's president/ruler or even to something lower than that, such as an average foreigner. That is the highness of the opinion they have of themselves.

 

Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

 

 

Except that even after Ny told Egwene and Siuan that saiden is clean, Egwene still is upset about AS being bonded to Asha'man and thinks of it as a crime Rand must answer for.

 

There is that... I think its a mixture of factors. The horror of men who can channel, and their fate, is definitely, IMO, a factor in the early horror of the idea. But I think its also to do with the AS attitude- the bonding between Warders and AS isn't exactly an equal bond- Warders do as commanded, and protect and defend their AS, or that's the idea. And AS have been "on top", so to speak, for many years. They hold immense political power, they're seen as being "above" normal people, they take command and demand respect as their rights (I'm not saying they're a terrible institution, nor that they haven't done many good things in the past, but there does definitely seem to be an arrogance in the organisation and the vast majority of its members), and now, there are several of their own number on the opposite end of the Warder bond- something that puts them, if we go by the traditional AS/ Warder dynamic, under the command of these channeling men. As I've said, for an organisation that largely sees respect and deference from outsiders as its right, that has to be galling. There may well be the issue of forbidden bonding, too, but given that they did go in there to kill the Asha'man, its difficult to see another way to safeguard themselves from these AS without stilling or killing them.

 

So, in conclusion, I think its a mixture of the traditional horror of men who can channel, and the idea that these women will share their fate, and the attitude and outlook of the AS that believe AS should command obedience and respect. Hence why, after Egwene knows that the taint is cleansed, she is still angry at the idea of AS bonded. That's my thoughts, anyway.

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I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to all the Aes Sedai that Asha'man bonded Aes Sedai. It's not much different from Aes Sedai bonding Warders. I figured everyone was used to change considering the Last Battle is approaching. I just can't figure out why it's such a big deal.

 

To the Aes Sedai, it's similar to a president/ruler acting as a servant to another country's president/ruler or even to something lower than that, such as an average foreigner. That is the highness of the opinion they have of themselves.

 

Either that or the whole taint and how male channelers were viewed thing. You know, that three thousand year old guaranteed death, insanity and destruction that was only fixed in WH and not made widespread(if that) knowledge until much later. Sure that wouldn't have freaked anyone out.

 

Not to say AS don't think they are better than everyone else but compared to the above it's not really relevant.

 

 

Except that even after Ny told Egwene and Siuan that saiden is clean, Egwene still is upset about AS being bonded to Asha'man and thinks of it as a crime Rand must answer for.

 

There is that... I think its a mixture of factors. The horror of men who can channel, and their fate, is definitely, IMO, a factor in the early horror of the idea. But I think its also to do with the AS attitude- the bonding between Warders and AS isn't exactly an equal bond- Warders do as commanded, and protect and defend their AS, or that's the idea. And AS have been "on top", so to speak, for many years. They hold immense political power, they're seen as being "above" normal people, they take command and demand respect as their rights (I'm not saying they're a terrible institution, nor that they haven't done many good things in the past, but there does definitely seem to be an arrogance in the organisation and the vast majority of its members), and now, there are several of their own number on the opposite end of the Warder bond- something that puts them, if we go by the traditional AS/ Warder dynamic, under the command of these channeling men. As I've said, for an organisation that largely sees respect and deference from outsiders as its right, that has to be galling. There may well be the issue of forbidden bonding, too, but given that they did go in there to kill the Asha'man, its difficult to see another way to safeguard themselves from these AS without stilling or killing them.

 

So, in conclusion, I think its a mixture of the traditional horror of men who can channel, and the idea that these women will share their fate, and the attitude and outlook of the AS that believe AS should command obedience and respect. Hence why, after Egwene knows that the taint is cleansed, she is still angry at the idea of AS bonded. That's my thoughts, anyway.

 

Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

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Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

 

 

Bonding AS against their will was not nice, but in that case, it was the best case scenario.

They went to the BT to gentle, kill and hang all channelers, without counting all the extra casualties during the fight(servants, soldiers, family members that will try to protect their husbands, brothers, sons, etc).

If Taim found the order Logain burned, the AS would have been at least stilled.

It was ilogic to maintain at least 50 Ashaman each second to keep them shielded, so they chose the easiest way to control them without doing anything drastic.

Releasing them after they tried to commit mass-murder is also out of the question, and it will only make Elaida believe that she can try again with a larger number, and if they fail, the Ashaman will just release them again.

 

Even after the saidin is cleansed, the Amyrlin consider it a crime, even if they did it in self defense, but believes bonding all the Ashaman is the only way to deal with them.

So, the rape thing goes just one way?

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Most of - if not all of - the asha'man bonded aes sedai against their will.

Conventional Aes Sedai wisdom considers this to be akin to rape... even if it didnt stop Alanna from attempting to bond Rand without consent.

 

 

Bonding AS against their will was not nice, but in that case, it was the best case scenario.

They went to the BT to gentle, kill and hang all channelers, without counting all the extra casualties during the fight(servants, soldiers, family members that will try to protect their husbands, brothers, sons, etc).

If Taim found the order Logain burned, the AS would have been at least stilled.

It was ilogic to maintain at least 50 Ashaman each second to keep them shielded, so they chose the easiest way to control them without doing anything drastic.

Releasing them after they tried to commit mass-murder is also out of the question, and it will only make Elaida believe that she can try again with a larger number, and if they fail, the Ashaman will just release them again.

 

Even after the saidin is cleansed, the Amyrlin consider it a crime, even if they did it in self defense, but believes bonding all the Ashaman is the only way to deal with them.

So, the rape thing goes just one way?

 

Did Egwene propose forcibly bonding them as the Ashaman did? Or did she even seriously propose bonding them all? I've only read TGS and ToM once through so some of that is shaky for me.

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Did Egwene propose forcibly bonding them as the Ashaman did? Or did she even seriously propose bonding them all? I've only read TGS and ToM once through so some of that is shaky for me.

 

 

There is a quote in one of those books. I'll look for it. brb.

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Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

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If I remember correctly, Nyneave was not pleased at all that Logain and his men had bonded Aes Sedai. And it's pretty clear that it had nothing to do with them being bonded unwillingly, though she probably wasn't happy about that either. And this was after the Cleansing, so it's pretty clear that she simply believed it is for women to bond men and not the other way around.

 

Overall I'm guesssing most Aes Sedai were not happy because it was done against the Aes Sedai's will and because it was done by men.

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Very good post Himiko...things having been a certain way for thousands of years(both AS pride and horror of Saidin) will not change over night. I think when viewed along the lines you present their response is perfectly reasonable.

 

Sure as reasonable as a group of men in upper management in many companies deciding that a woman can never join them because the woman has been "inferior" for tens of thousands of years in human history.

 

The AS(including Egwene) are an arrogant and sexist group. No way to spin that.

 

Ahhh xxx we have missed(kinda) your zealotry as of late.

 

Since those "women" you use in your example have been destined to go mad, causing mass death and destruction on their way out the door for thousands of years, not to mention having almost destroyed the world in the first place, you really don't have a point. Nice to see you are as blind to the realities of this world as ever. No one is disputing AS attitudes play a role, it is just far smaller one than the taint.

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