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A Paradigm Shift (for myself at least)

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The Wheel of Time Paradigm Shift

 

Consider the entire series to be a continuation of The Eye of The World Prologue.

 

Lews Therin Telamon and Elan Morin Tedronai are in a continuing war.

 

LTT is CotL and Elan/a.k.a various names is the Champion of the Dark.

 

Their war has continued throughout existence.

 

The Dark One has NEVER succeded in winning or existence would cease.

 

The Light Champion has NEVER gone over to the dark according to Rand/LTT

memories but if he ever had then someone killed him before he could destroy the world and time or in going to the Dark he lost his will or capacity to break the Wheel.

 

Speculation:

The Dark One of himself is UNABLE to Break the Wheel. Only the CotL soul is capable of doing that. The game plan is to cause the CotL to decide to break the WoT.

AND to choose to break the WoT of his own whim and fancy for such good and sufficient reasons that he finds within himself. (Such as EMT currently has.)

[All of EMT's efforts seem to be giving LTT/Rand those reasons.]

--------------------------------

The story of Rand al'Thor is a small portion of the story of LTT.

 

Everything that happens to "Rand" is happening to the REAL Protagonist, Lews Therin Telamon.

 

After an attempt to seal the Bore and seal the D.O. away LTT went insane from the taint and killed all his family.

The taint being an attempt to cause the CotL to go wild and DESTROY THE WHEEL of TIME.

 

E.M.T. (not emergency medical technician or 'empty' but Elan Morin Tedronai) but currently known as DEATH/MORIDIN, healed him long enough for him to realize what he had done.

 

(Elan at the time STILL trying to get the CotL to DESTROY THE WHEEL in despair.)

 

It didn't work. Instead LTT destroyed HIMSELF, creating Dragonmount and causing EMT

to twirl his moustaches and snarl, "Curses! Foiled again!")

 

After certain years passed, (3000 or so), the Dragon Soul came back. Born on the slopes of DragonMount, the grave/monument he made for himself.

 

LTT was then called 'Rand' and had lost the memories of himself. The soul was overlaid with new memories of a new life as a farm boy until the Dark One's minions found out he was back and started fighting him/manipulating him to their (cross)purposes.

 

------------------

DarkFriends have various purposes, most wish to rule and run rampant over all others.

 

The Chosen/Forsaken have their various purposes, to RULE in POWER with EVIL.

 

The Nobles want to have power to run things for themselves at their own whims.

 

The SeaFolk want to Control the Seas. They would want the whole world but they are uncomfortable away from the water.

 

The Aiel are suffering a major guilt complex bordering on insanity and want to suffer and kill to make up for their failure in serving the Aes Sedai.

 

The Aes Sedai want business as usual, controlling the world and showing their arrogance and falsity from their ivory tower.

 

The Seanchan want to dominate the entire world and the powerful channelers by making the world servants/subjects and the channelers trained animals.

 

The women want to dominate the men and the men want to avoid that but they put up with it.

(Much like the real world throughout history but with gender reversal)

 

Elan M. Tedronai wants it ALL TO END! FOREVER!

 

I also want it to all end but I only want the BOOKS to end so I will know just WTF happens.

I have been waiting a looooong time. Not as long as Elan but a long time anyway.)

-----

 

LTT had a hell of a time regaining his senses and memories especially with the madman 'Rand alThor' in his head.

He regained himself just in time to stop the madman from destroying the Wheel by suggesting to him that letting it keep turning gives him a chance to do things right and to love again.

That in the grand scheme of the Wheel losses need not be forever.

The madman stops fighting LTT and with that he merges totally with the new persona of "Rand" and knows himself for who he is.

The Dragon was reborn when Gitara Morosa had her foretelling.

The Dragon was reborn when Moiraine heard Rand declare himself.

The Dragon was reborn when Rand declared himself at the Stone of Tear.

Then comes Veins of Gold.

 

NOW the Dragon is REBORN.

NOW The GREAT BATTLE is done. Won by the Dragon/DragonReborn with/within himself.

The confrontation with the DO and Tarmon Gaidon still has to take place.

 

LTT's current tasks are to undo a lot of crap which has been done by himself as well as others and to prepare for the final battle with Elan and the D.O.

**************************************************************

At any rate I now think of the WoT as being the continuing story of Lews T. Telamon and not the story of a farmboy named Rand.

 

Okay. Rip it apart.

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Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NY, NY - 7 January 2003 - David Funcke reporting

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

It's the soul that's important...LTT is just one of the incarnations.

 

As for the DO never winning...

 

scifi.com chat 1 January 2000

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

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Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour, Barnes and Noble signing NY, NY - 7 January 2003 - David Funcke reporting

 

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

 

It's the soul that's important...LTT is just one of the incarnations.

 

As for the DO never winning...

 

scifi.com chat 1 January 2000

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

 

That's an odd answer. While we know that losing in the Real World would cause destruction in all the mirror worlds. It doesn't make any sense that losing in a mirror world would cause destruction in the real world. If mirror worlds actually are "other choices" or "other alternatives" some of those alternatives MUST involve the CoL not doing what he should/needs to do (and we saw some), therefore in some mirror worlds he must lose. Given how "dire" the situation is, it would make sense if the DO wins in MOST of the mirror worlds, particularly the ones Rand sees about himself making different choices early on in life.

 

So I never had an issue with the DO winning in a mirror world, I mean if that's where that alternative led, then fine. By the nature of the mirror worlds, that just means it's not what happened in the real world and we're still good.

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I've brought that up before Kael. Verin Sedai says that if the Dark One wins in one world, he wins in all the worlds, due to the nature of the Pattern. It's not like there's a thousand thousand different prisons, there is one prison and one Pattern. However, the mirror worlds, by their nature throw up an infinite number of realities in which sometimes the Dark One must necessarily win unless he can never win.

 

So either it is simply not a possibility for the Dark One to win or the Wheel is simply illogical. Which it is. God bless the Greeks :biggrin:!

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Keep in mind that the world of Rand is also a mirror world, if viewed through the eyes of someone in one of the mirror worlds (which would make that world the real world).

 

The interesting thing though, is that the Dark One must constantly be getting freed and then bound again in every world. For instance, right after Lews Therin bound him up again in Randland, someone in a mirror world bored a hole the Dark Ones prison there, causing the War of the Shadow to be fought on that world. And then when the Dragon won there, the Dark One got freed on yet another world, and so on and so forth.

 

Is that how you think it is?

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The Great Lord exists outside of the Pattern. If he is freed on one world, he is freed on them all.

 

But the important part is what follows: If he is sealed in one world, he is sealed in them all.

 

The Great Lord can win in any number of mirror worlds (they are no less real than the world we witness). But as Jordan describes, there are degrees of victory. Killing the Dragon is one method of "winning," but not the final method of winning. For the Great Lord to finally win, he needs to be freed and then destroy the Wheel. That has not happened yet.

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The Great Lord exists outside of the Pattern. If he is freed on one world, he is freed on them all.

 

But the important part is what follows: If he is sealed in one world, he is sealed in them all.

 

The Great Lord can win in any number of mirror worlds (they are no less real than the world we witness). But as Jordan describes, there are degrees of victory. Killing the Dragon is one method of "winning," but not the final method of winning. For the Great Lord to finally win, he needs to be freed and then destroy the Wheel. That has not happened yet.

 

But that's what I have a hard time getting my head around. In one world, the Dragon Reborn wins, but by the very nature of the Wheel, in another reality, he fails completely and the Dark One breaks free. If Rand takes a step left in the current world, then Rand takes a right in another world as it's another possibility etc. There is always a possibility that the Dark One completely and utterly wins and due to the nature of the Wheel there has been, is and always will be infinite realities in which the Dark One must completely and utterly win at least once.

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That's why even if Rand fails, it doesn't necessitate the Great Lord breaking free.

 

You have an idea in your head: Rand fails = Great Lord breaks free.

 

However, that's not true. The only truth is that Rand wins = Great Lord is sealed.

 

Rand only has to win once, in any reality for the Great Lord to be sealed. He kills the Dragon in another reality, well, that's lovely, but he still lost in this one. So he's sealed away. That's why in certain mirror worlds, the Trollocs won. The Great Lord still lost, but the world was overrun by the Shadow.

 

There is always a possibility that the Dark One completely and utterly wins and due to the nature of the Wheel there has been, is and always will be infinite realities in which the Dark One must completely and utterly win at least once.

 

That's a pretty big assumption contradicted simply by the rules of the game. If the Great Lord completely and utterly wins, there is no second try. He wins for all eternity because the Wheel is destroyed and existence ceases. Thus, the Great Lord has never completely and utterly won because the Wheel has not been destroyed.

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I didn't say he has won, I said that he should have won.

 

But I see what you're getting at.. essentially the Dark One can never win because he could never win in every single world at the same time because there would also exist, due to the Wheel's nature, realities in which he didn't win.

Edited by Jon Paul

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But I see what you're getting at.. essentially the Dark One can never win because he could never win in every single world at the same time because there would also exist, due to the Wheel's nature, realities in which he didn't win.

 

That's not quite what I'm saying. If he wins, then he wins in every world at the same time by default. So he can't lose and win at the same time. But, theoretically he should be able to.

 

Yes. It's contradictory. But so is the concept of something existing in more than one place at the same time anyway.

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That's not quite what I'm saying. If he wins, then he wins in every world at the same time by default. So he can't lose and win at the same time. But, theoretically he should be able to.

 

Hm, I'm not getting it. If the Dark One wins in one world.. he wins in them all. If he loses in one world, he loses in them all. But because the Wheel throws up so many alternative realities, he is winning and losing for eternity. And if he needs to completely and utterly win in every single world, it will be impossible because there will be alternative worlds in which he didn't because there will always been an infinite amount of realities.

 

So he cannot win and Rand can just go on a boozer for the rest of his days. Let the other Rand sort it out :biggrin:.

 

But so is the concept of something existing in more than one place at the same time anyway.

 

Is this referring to the Dark One? There's no contradiction there. He exists outside of the Pattern. I look at it like the Pattern being a giant lace that is floating in a void where the Dark One lives and he can see the whole of the lace, both past, future and present, all the alternatives etc., and can pretty much poke around where ever he wants because he's not corporal.

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There is one Great Lord. Yes. But multiple realities. Thus, one Great Lord existing in more than one place at a time.

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But because the Wheel throws up so many alternative realities, he is winning and losing for eternity. And if he needs to completely and utterly win in every single world, it will be impossible because there will be alternative worlds in which he didn't because there will always been an infinite amount of realities.

That's the part where I don't agree. He does not need to completely and utterly win in every single world. He only needs to win in one. Which means that he hasn't won the true victory in any of the alternative worlds. True victory would mean end of everything, nothing would exist, not alternative realities, nothing. As RJ said, there are varying degrees of victory. But the final victory hasn't occurred in any of the alternative worlds. If it had, everything would have already been destroyed.

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I realise it hasn't happened, what I am trying to say is that it should have happened. If the Wheel if infinite, and there are infinite possibilities etc., then the Dark One should have met the criteria for complete and utter victory by now. Why hasn't he?

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He does not need to completely and utterly win in every single world. He only needs to win in one.

 

Heh. You're ignoring the contradiction.

 

If he wins in one, he wins in all. If he loses in one, he loses in all. There are infinitely many realities, thus, he must win in at least one (true victory, he is freed and destroys the Wheel) and must lose in at least one (being sealed, which means he can't have won in any other 'cause he's sealed). He cannot win and lose at the same time. Thus, he can never win or lose, so Rand can just chill.

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There is one Great Lord. Yes. But multiple realities. Thus, one Great Lord existing in more than one place at a time.

 

He doesn't exist in more than one place at a time. He is present everywhere because he is not a part of the Pattern, he exists outside of it. He exists in the same place as he does in Rand's reality as he does in the mirror world Rand visited in The Great Hunt.

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Oh, I just love semantic arguments!

 

Haha.

 

It depends on what you mean by "exists." If you think of each "mirror world" as a distinct reality, then the Great Lord exists in each of them. If, however, each mirror world is merely a subset of the greater reality which the Pattern, the Wheel, the Great Lord, and the Creator exist in, then there is only one Great Lord and he merely exists, and all mirror worlds see him.

 

Of course, the latter is obviously the case. The former is merely colloquially how we refer to the mirror worlds (separate realities when they most certainly are not).

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You're just not getting this :tongue:!

 

He doesn't exist in any of the worlds because he doesn't exist in the Pattern. He exists outside of the Pattern as a separate and distinct thing from it. He can act on the individual worlds however this does not equal existence in them. As Verin said, there is only one Dark One, not thousands. And this is possible because he doesn't exist like a human being in the world.

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As has been stated earlier, there are various degrees of winning - on both sides.

 

But Verin wasn't talking about winning or losing, she was talking about the Dark One either breaking free of or being sealed in his prison. There is a big difference between those two realities and the probability of the Dark One winning a battle in some of the mirror worlds. ie. the Dark One won the battle in those worlds but not the war.

 

A lot of those worlds seem faint, meaning that it is a very low probability that the events of those worlds will come to pass, therefore they don't really count in the reality that is the WoT.

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He does not need to completely and utterly win in every single world. He only needs to win in one.

 

Heh. You're ignoring the contradiction.

 

If he wins in one, he wins in all. If he loses in one, he loses in all. There are infinitely many realities, thus, he must win in at least one (true victory, he is freed and destroys the Wheel) and must lose in at least one (being sealed, which means he can't have won in any other 'cause he's sealed). He cannot win and lose at the same time. Thus, he can never win or lose, so Rand can just chill.

 

Well, I guess it's a paradox, then :) But still. The fact that the world still exist means that the Dark One hasn't been freed in any reality. Therefore, he is still sealed in all worlds. I think we're not arguing about that. Your point (if I understand it correctly) is that Rand doesn't need to worry about sealing the Dark One away, because he is still sealed in other worlds, and therefore he will remain sealed in this one as well no matter what (if he loses in one, he loses in all). I take it to have a slightly different meaning.

 

Maybe it means that if the Dark One breaks free completely, he will do so simultaneously in all worlds, therefore the fact that he is still sealed in one means, logically, that he is sealed in all. Not "the fact that he is sealed in one world guarantees that he will not break free in any world". But rather "the fact that he is still sealed in one world guarantees that he hasn't broken free yet in any world".

 

Am I taking this too far ? :p

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Let's clarify a few things for you, Elci.

 

I'm going to define a few terms.

 

Great Lord wins = breaking free and destroying the Wheel and Pattern.

Great Lord loses = being sealed.

 

If the Great Lord wins in one reality, he breaks free of his prison and destroys the Wheel. Effectively winning in all realities.

 

Infinitely many realities necessitates at least one victory condition and at least one loss condition simultaneously. This is a contradiction and is thus impossible. Thus, the idea of the Great Lord is impossible. Amusing, but impossible as presented.

 

He doesn't exist in any of the worlds because he doesn't exist in the Pattern.

 

Haha, re-read what I wrote, man. I was agreeing. I understand exactly what you are saying and was agreeing. :-p

 

Am I taking this too far ? :p

 

Not at all. I would say you aren't taking it far enough. You are still not taking into account what "infinitely many worlds" means. With an infinite number of worlds, it is necessary that the Great Lord win in at least one. As the Great Lord of the Dark need only win once, the concept as is presented (that is, that the Great Lord quite evidently has never won as long as creation has existed) is inherently ridiculous. :)

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Let's clarify a few things for you, Elci.

 

I'm going to define a few terms.

 

Great Lord wins = breaking free and destroying the Wheel and Pattern.

Great Lord loses = being sealed.

 

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

 

Might have missed it but where do those lesser victories come in to the definition?

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I'd be pissed if I was living in Reality 1, and the bastards in Reality 2 would manage to screw things up so bad that they lost and caused my Reality 1 to be destroyed, too.

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