Why doesn't the Dark One ressurect all previous forsaken?

[MasterAblar - Member]

I believe there were only 13 Forsaken, at least in the AoL. Lews Therin was merely lucky to find them at Shayol Ghul (ta'veren?) and that probably ended the War of the Shadow earlier than if they were left free. The downside is that they're around now...

 

No, there were far more than 13 Forsaken in the AoL. The only reason the 13 are the only ones known as "Forsaken", is because they are the only ones who survived. When LTT struck at SG, the 13 that were present were the most powerful, most influential, most important. The rest were all forgoten in time because they all died in the Breaking. But during the War of Power any channeler who was on the DO's side was known as a Forsaken.

 

The thirteen that were sealed were not necessarily the most powerful. RJ said that only six among them were at the top of the Forsaken hierarchy during the war of power. Obviously Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael and Lanfear were in that group. The other two I am not sure about.

 

The other two are Semirhage and Greandal

 

I believe there were only 13 Forsaken, at least in the AoL. Lews Therin was merely lucky to find them at Shayol Ghul (ta'veren?) and that probably ended the War of the Shadow earlier than if they were left free. The downside is that they're around now...

 

No, there were far more than 13 Forsaken in the AoL. The only reason the 13 are the only ones known as "Forsaken", is because they are the only ones who survived. When LTT struck at SG, the 13 that were present were the most powerful, most influential, most important. The rest were all forgoten in time because they all died in the Breaking. But during the War of Power any channeler who was on the DO's side was known as a Forsaken.

 

The thirteen that were sealed were not necessarily the most powerful. RJ said that only six among them were at the top of the Forsaken hierarchy during the war of power. Obviously Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael and Lanfear were in that group. The other two I am not sure about.

 

Do you have a quote for RJ saying that?

 

BWB

The survivors of this winnowing process, the thirteen most powerful of the Chosen, who were caught in the sealing of the Bore, are known in all cases but one by the Old Tongue names men had given them out of contempt. They are Aginor, Asmodean, Balthamel, Be'lal, Demandred, Graendal, Ishamael, Lanfear, Mesaana, Moghedien, Rahvin, Sammael, and Semirhage.

 

I don't have the quote but basically what RJ said was that there was considerable turnover at the top of the Forsaken power chain. The top six however were always (at least starting when each of them joined up): Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael, Lanfear, Graendal, and Semirhage. The other seven that were sealed by LTT were those who happened to be the most powerful (apart from the top six) at that time.

[damandred - Member]

Wasn't Aginor just an average run of the mill dark channeller, and he only became one of the chosen because of his creation of shadowspawn.

[MasterAblar - Member]

Wasn't Aginor just an average run of the mill dark channeller, and he only became one of the chosen because of his creation of shadowspawn.

 

He's very strong in the power, nearly as strong as Rand/LTT and Ishamael, but his claim to power among the Forsaken was really his scientific genius. Demandred, who has a rather low opinion of him, believed that if not for his special talents he would never have been Chosen. He doesn't have a very strong personality or a very commanding presence, but his creation of the various shadowspawn was obviously quite valuable.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Master Ablar

[damandred - Member]

Thanks Master Ablar. So not all the dark channellers were called chosen in the AoL as some seem to believe up thread?

[WhiskyJack - Member]

DO can only raise someone at the moment of their death. Not before, not after.

Edited October 1, 2011 by WhiskyJack

[WhiskyJack - Member]

Thanks Master Ablar. So not all the dark channellers were called chosen in the AoL as some seem to believe up thread?

There were less than 30 forsaken in AoL. Somehow I doubt that is all bad guys had considering the number of overall channelers and how good side was either fighting a draw or losing.

[OptimusPrime - Member]

DO can only raise someone at the moment of their death. Not before, not after.

 

Aginor and Balthamel. Need I say more?

[WhiskyJack - Member]

DO can only raise someone at the moment of their death. Not before, not after.

 

Aginor and Balthamel. Need I say more?

 

?? Did you contradict me? DO must grab the souls of dead at the moment of death. It can then keep those souls forever or put them in new body whenever it thinks is the right time.

[Luckers - Member]

Thanks Master Ablar. So not all the dark channellers were called chosen in the AoL as some seem to believe up thread?

 

 

Thanks Master Ablar. So not all the dark channellers were called chosen in the AoL as some seem to believe up thread?

There were less than 30 forsaken in AoL. Somehow I doubt that is all bad guys had considering the number of overall channelers and how good side was either fighting a draw or losing.

 

No--any darkfriend channeler in the Age of Legends was called Chosen [by the Shadow] or Forsaken [by the Light]. Only 29 of the Chosen/Forsaken were given access to the True Power, but they were ALL called Chosen/Forsaken.

[MasterAblar - Member]

Thanks Master Ablar. So not all the dark channellers were called chosen in the AoL as some seem to believe up thread?

 

 

Thanks Master Ablar. So not all the dark channellers were called chosen in the AoL as some seem to believe up thread?

There were less than 30 forsaken in AoL. Somehow I doubt that is all bad guys had considering the number of overall channelers and how good side was either fighting a draw or losing.

 

No--any darkfriend channeler in the Age of Legends was called Chosen [by the Shadow] or Forsaken [by the Light]. Only 29 of the Chosen/Forsaken were given access to the True Power, but they were ALL called Chosen/Forsaken.

 

As Luckers said, all of them were called Forsaken/Chosen (depending on the side you're on), not just those that were given permission to touch the TP. I think what Demandred meant was that he didn't consider Aginor worthy of being Chosen.

[jsbrads - Member]

I don't know what ppl meant when they said Chosen or Forsaken in AoL, but the Fades and Trollocs don't go out on the words of just any channeler, They move on the commands of a Chosen, trolloc have been sent into the ways (I'm not sure but I think it was Shadar haran who mentions this)

All of DO's resources can only be accessed by those DO choses and most of the Black ajah never made it to S.Ghul. I think it was the same in AoL, Grandeal would pull a lord voldemort and convert a number of channelers and she probably used them as burner agents, without bringing most of them to S.Ghul, these people would not have administration rights on DO's network and would be stuck associating with DF and other peons in the organization.

[Sharaman - Member]

That "mark" business may perhaps be an useful distinguishing factor.

Could all sworn DF channelers command spawn during the AoL?

All DF channelers cannot command Spawn during the Third Age.

In fact, Alviarin needed a specific "tattoo" to ensure she would be left alone.

Was this the same case with the Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars?

Did they have marks that allowed them to command trollocs/ fades?

If not, did Ishamael have to individually introduce them to the fades?

[damandred - Member]

I don't think all DF channellers in the AoL were chosen/forsaken.

 

I think only the most powerfull and respected AOL AS were given that honour, and because there conversion so demoralized the light (betrayer of hope/destroyer of hope) they were taken to SG to make a more intermate oath to the DO and were given the DO s personal seal of approval. I think the DO s words to moggy in CoS points to this "The chosen are always the strongest". It is apparent that the Forsaken/Chosen are the top rung in the DF ranks and DF channlers are in no way shown the same respect and can even be commanded by non channelling DF s. I maybe wrong but don't think Iam if anyone disagrees please show evidence/quote that proves otherwise and I will gladly admit defeat.

[MasterAblar - Member]

I don't think all DF channellers in the AoL were chosen/forsaken.

 

I think only the most powerfull and respected AOL AS were given that honour, and because there conversion so demoralized the light (betrayer of hope/destroyer of hope) they were taken to SG to make a more intermate oath to the DO and were given the DO s personal seal of approval. I think the DO s words to moggy in CoS points to this "The chosen are always the strongest". It is apparent that the Forsaken/Chosen are the top rung in the DF ranks and DF channlers are in no way shown the same respect and can even be commanded by non channelling DF s. I maybe wrong but don't think Iam if anyone disagrees please show evidence/quote that proves otherwise and I will gladly admit defeat.

 

Here you go:

 

Week 12 Question: In Winter's Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the thirteen survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current" Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male Aes Sedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Master Ablar

[damandred - Member]

Thanks again master Ablar. I stand corrected.

[MasterAblar - Member]

That "mark" business may perhaps be an useful distinguishing factor.

Could all sworn DF channelers command spawn during the AoL?

All DF channelers cannot command Spawn during the Third Age.

In fact, Alviarin needed a specific "tattoo" to ensure she would be left alone.

Was this the same case with the Dreadlords during the Trolloc Wars?

Did they have marks that allowed them to command trollocs/ fades?

If not, did Ishamael have to individually introduce them to the fades?

 

Presumably, all Foraken had marks to allow them to control shadowspawn. Dreadlords on the other hand, as well as current DR channelers, couldn't control them. They had to negociate with the Fades. Ishamael set off the Trolloc Wars and had overall command at the beggining, and obviously he had the mark that allows him to control shadowspawn.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Master Ablar

[Andhaira - Member]

Interesting. However, I have a few questions:

 

-The Chosen were supposed to all be gifted with immortality. So why did the ones that escaped the Sealing die? (the females anyway). Did the sealing of the dark one also remove any gifts of immortality for them?

[MasterAblar - Member]

Interesting. However, I have a few questions:

 

-The Chosen were supposed to all be gifted with immortality. So why did the ones that escaped the Sealing die? (the females anyway). Did the sealing of the dark one also remove any gifts of immortality for them?

 

The Dark One isn't called the Father of Lies for nothing. He obviously didn't mention to them that he wanted to end time. Therefore, no immortality. Although there is some truth in his promise, as he can bring the dead back to life, but I don't think that's what the Forsaken had in mind when the DO made that promise.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Master Ablar

[Luckers - Member]

Interesting. However, I have a few questions:

 

-The Chosen were supposed to all be gifted with immortality. So why did the ones that escaped the Sealing die? (the females anyway). Did the sealing of the dark one also remove any gifts of immortality for them?

 

They are promised immortality, but it has not been given yet. This was confirmed by Rj or Brandon.