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Who will fight Shaidar Haran?


Andhaira
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I am going to attempt to hijack part of this thread. It's still on the topic of SH though, so fear not amigos.

OK. IIRC, Fades are kind of the messed up downs-syndrome kids from the trolloc litter, except they accidentally kicked ass. It's been speculated that they're what happens when the ability to channel is present in someone who's to be made into a trolloc. I like that idea, but it seems like a small small small variable with a huge and completely different end result. So I dunno. Speculate on that, if you will.

 

Provided that is true however, SH is still technically a fade. Super fade as he may be, he is still a fade. I wonder, like I do, if he was in fact someone of import, transformed into a fade, and then given the super powers. I realize that he appeared super early in the series, so It's hard to imagine he's someone we know, and that makes this theory a little silly. But it got stuck in my head the other day. Any thoughts?

 

**Edit.

My reasoning here is that the Dark One isn't free yet. His ability to influence this world is still at least seemingly sporadic, so I can't see how he eeeenie-meeenie mineee mo'd a random fade and gave him powers, much less, how he just said "AND on the 3rd day, God descended on the pilgrims and said SHADAR HARAN" - it just seems like it's outside of his reach, without being an in-between, go to guy, to take up the mantle.

Edited by clu7ch
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His eyes skittered hungrily across the tent holding the prisoners. They could wait. For a while yet. A little while longer. They were only tidbits anyway. Bait. He should have restrained himself at the Aybara farm, but Con Aybara had laughed in his face, and Joslyn had called him a filthy-minded little fool for naming her son Darkfriend. Well, they had learned, screaming, burning. In spite of himself he giggled under his breath. Tidbits.

 

Thanks for that. I'd forgotten he killed them just because he lost his temper.

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Provided that is true however, SH is still technically a fade. Super fade as he may be, he is still a fade. I wonder, like I do, if he was in fact someone of import, transformed into a fade, and then given the super powers. I realize that he appeared super early in the series, so It's hard to imagine he's someone we know, and that makes this theory a little silly. But it got stuck in my head the other day. Any thoughts?

 

**Edit.

My reasoning here is that the Dark One isn't free yet. His ability to influence this world is still at least seemingly sporadic, so I can't see how he eeeenie-meeenie mineee mo'd a random fade and gave him powers, much less, how he just said "AND on the 3rd day, God descended on the pilgrims and said SHADAR HARAN" - it just seems like it's outside of his reach, without being an in-between, go to guy, to take up the mantle.

 

DragonCon, 3 September 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

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Yeah, Suttree, I did see that, but I still think there's something missing from the whole picture. It's just my wild-assed speculation.

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DragonCon, 3 September 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

Bit like a demonic possession (except welcomed) perhaps, with the more substance the DO has, the more it is able to dance within its skin? Yeah, blatant shill for a dark prophecy prediction, I know. :)

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DragonCon, 3 September 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

Bit like a demonic possession (except welcomed) perhaps, with the more substance the DO has, the more it is able to dance within its skin? Yeah, blatant shill for a dark prophecy prediction, I know. :)

 

Thats assuming a fade has anything like a personality or soul to possess. I think 'projection' was a good term. I don't think it is a good idea to consider SH a creature of our world inhabited by the Dark One like a puppet- he doesn't seem to be able to touch anyone not sworn to the DO (he needed Elza to take out Semirhages guards and steel the Dominion Band). Which is a good thing for the Light side, thats for sure. If he was just driving a giant fade like piloting a Predator drone, he could do a lot more nasty stuff.

 

A fade isn't entirely an inhabitant of our dimension (their shadow ability, cloaks the wind cant touch). It seems to me that any fade is made up of a bit of the madness and cruelty of the Dark One which comes from outside the pattern. SH is a more realized version of this, what the Dark One projects himself to be to interact with our world. Hand of the Dark is a good name. I visualize the inside of one of those bubble boy bubbles that represents the world, and someone reaching his arm into a glove to interact inside the bubble. He can't exactly touch things physically or do a lot of things he would like to be able to do (yet), but that gloved hand is how he can interact with certain aspects of the world directly. The glove itself isn't anything but the incarnation of his will. If he withdrew his will, I think SH just collapses back into nothingness, there is nothing there that is being possessed. Inhabited perhaps, but not possessed.

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I did refer to it as a 'bit like possession' because like you, I don't consider it a perfect metaphor. However, I get the sense that the fade has no will of its own, but that it is an actual creature, a fade made exceptional only by the fact of the power inhabiting, posessing or whatever you'd like to call it.

 

In fact, I'd go so far as to speculate that the limitations of the DO given flesh are solely those of its host; in other words, it does have a break point at which it will stop being superfade and start being toast. I might even take that a step further by stating that the Dark One is limited in what he can do in the world by his host and the sheer poison (bubbles of evil) that is his unholy aura, and that this is why the dark prophecy alludes to dancing in one's skin. Why would the DO bother with anything related to his minions once he's free? Is he truly "free", or is his touch limited to the power he can muster through those having been foolish enough to commit their souls to him? That's not inconsiderable power, and if mustered through the full number of his host, is more than enough to overmatch the Dragon since his enemies are limited by their own human power, but I don't see it as an omnipotent entity.

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I would like to propose Fain for killing Shaidar Haram...because he (it) is a being singularlay possessed with two things

1.) Destroying the DO

2.) Killing Rand.

 

Rand will use #1 to his advantage somehow, as has been speculated elsewhere.

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Yeah I also believe it will be Fain. In the prologue to Towers of Midnight he tells us that his touch now means instant death for a Myyrdraal

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It has to happen. Shaidar Haran vs one or more of the Heroes.

 

So who will it be? Rand seems the likely answer. But isn't Rand going to take on Moridin/Ishamel?

 

From what I recall of Shaidar Haran, he can block channelers from reaching the True Source. So whoever fights him will have to do it with melee weapons. So maybe an Asha'man, like Narishma?

 

It doesn't have to happen. I think it's enough to close the prison and the avatar should be gone or out of power.

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Regarding Fain, does he actually know SH? I don't recall him ever mentioning getting a visit, and he has been able to give Fades a swift backhander since the second book. It seems far too late in the series to give him/any of the lightsiders (barring Rand) any reason to tackle SH in particular.

 

I'd hope for one of the Forsaken to get revenge in some final act of betrayal, or failing that; Rand, sensing SH for what he is (an indicator of how much Shai'tan can touch the world).

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just finished a read through.

 

Fain takes out or absorbs SH possibly when SH is threatening Rand. Its always seemed to me that Fain will 'survive' TG either merged with the DO or possibly replacing him as the new DO should Rand actually manage to kill the old one.

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I will fight Shaidar Haran. Artemis Entreri is your man.

 

I charge reasonable rates. $1 million dollards.

 

Make that $100 BILLION dollards.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

I think the most satisfying outcome for me, personally, would be if SH fights no one, and we get to watch him crumple and obliterate when the Dark One is sealed into a new permanent prison.

 

Barring that, I would like to see an "ordinary" person like Perrin or Lan be the one to destroy SH. I'd also like to see a female Forsaken kill him, given that the most distasteful in the whole series for me has been the Satan rapings.

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Guest PiotrekS

I think the most satisfying outcome for me, personally, would be if SH fights no one, and we get to watch him crumple and obliterate when the Dark One is sealed into a new permanent prison.

 

Barring that, I would like to see an "ordinary" person like Perrin or Lan be the one to destroy SH. I'd also like to see a female Forsaken kill him, given that the most distasteful in the whole series for me has been the Satan rapings.

 

Not unlikely in my opinion. Maybe when Rand struggles to seal the Bore and SH is going to finish him, Cyndane decides she can't let SH win and sacrifices herself to seal the Bore and cut SH off power. That would be nice, the moment of both revenge and atonement.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think the most satisfying outcome for me, personally, would be if SH fights no one, and we get to watch him crumple and obliterate when the Dark One is sealed into a new permanent prison.

 

Barring that, I would like to see an "ordinary" person like Perrin or Lan be the one to destroy SH. I'd also like to see a female Forsaken kill him, given that the most distasteful in the whole series for me has been the Satan rapings.

 

Not unlikely in my opinion. Maybe when Rand struggles to seal the Bore and SH is going to finish him, Cyndane decides she can't let SH win and sacrifices herself to seal the Bore and cut SH off power. That would be nice, the moment of both revenge and atonement.

 

I would love it if SH don't really fight anyone, but if I have to choose, Lanfears revenge is a clear winner. As long as he don't get taken down by Fain.., that's a little too much Gollum for my taste.

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Either Perrin or Mat.

 

SH is a major enough player in the game that I think it's going to be one of the main three to take him down. Rand will probably be busy fighting Moridin and the Great Lord, and aside from that it'd be boring to have one character kill -all- the bad guys.

 

Perrin's a candidate because, as mentioned earlier in this thread, something about how entire packs of wolves would sacrifice themselves to see one Neverborn go down, would make it appropriate that the Wolf King would be the one to go up against the most powerful of the Neverborn. Even if Perrin doesn't have the skill to do so, he has the foreshadowing and plot going for him.

 

Mat would also be a candidate because I think he does have the skill to do so. Galad's been established as one of the most skilled blademasters in the world. And only about a year prior to that, Mat beat him and Gawyn, another skilled swordsman (who's been established as being able to beat warders in swordfights), fighting them at the same time, while having just barely crawled out of his deathbed. Not to mention killing Couladin without a scratch, and going toe to toe with the gholam several times and winning. He might need some serious AS healing after it's done, but I think Mat would be a good choice to take SH out.

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Either Perrin or Mat.

 

SH is a major enough player in the game that I think it's going to be one of the main three to take him down. Rand will probably be busy fighting Moridin and the Great Lord, and aside from that it'd be boring to have one character kill -all- the bad guys.

 

Perrin's a candidate because, as mentioned earlier in this thread, something about how entire packs of wolves would sacrifice themselves to see one Neverborn go down, would make it appropriate that the Wolf King would be the one to go up against the most powerful of the Neverborn. Even if Perrin doesn't have the skill to do so, he has the foreshadowing and plot going for him.

 

Mat would also be a candidate because I think he does have the skill to do so. Galad's been established as one of the most skilled blademasters in the world. And only about a year prior to that, Mat beat him and Gawyn, another skilled swordsman (who's been established as being able to beat warders in swordfights), fighting them at the same time, while having just barely crawled out of his deathbed. Not to mention killing Couladin without a scratch, and going toe to toe with the gholam several times and winning. He might need some serious AS healing after it's done, but I think Mat would be a good choice to take SH out.

Not to mention the Medallion, maybe it can stop SH power like it does the one power. I think Perrin will be busy with Slayer but He does have the foreshadowing so it could be both.

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  • 1 month later...

I can't really see Lan killing Shaidar Haran by himself, but seeing this idea did get me thinking and I can see it being Lan + Nyneave. Nyn is notorious for discovering ways of doing what has always been considered impossible.

 

Lan & SH doing epic battle while Nyn tries impotently to save Lan by killing SH. She gets fed up and starts throwing things at SH with the power, so SH angrily knocks Lan unconscious and comes slowly, menacingly, almost playfully, toward Nyn as she tries again and again to find some way of killing him and nothing works. As SH tortures Nyn, and threatens what he will do to her [like what he's already done to some of the forsaken] Lan comes back to consciousness and runs SH through completely, but SH just turns around, sword hilt still sticking out of his gut, and kicks Lan across the room. Advances on Lan, is about to kill him... then...

 

I don't know whether it would be to save Lan's live, or to avenge him after his being killed by SH, but somehow I could see Nyn in her rage finding some way of finally killing SH with the power at that point.

 

This could tie in with the idea I saw someone mention in a separate thread, about Nyn & Lan possibly being HoH & the re-born King & Queen of Manetheren and doing a similar story line of him dying in an extraordinarily heroic battle, then her wreaking massive carnage on the enemy in revenge.

 

 

 

I just had to respond that I have long held the fantasy that Nyn&Lan were HOH, with Mantheren their last life. And feeling a connection to her, though not knowing why (power of the wheel/creator, etc.) is what originally pulled Bridgette. I hoped that her block would somehow have long hidden her true potential, and she ended up strongest again. If Lan dies...I could see her burning out like the Queen of Manethern, I can't stand it if only one would, and then Rand, in his "end/near end" sees something to know them a HoH. I'd rather they were HoH and lived...but it's just funny that this random thought of mine as them being the last King & Queen of Manethern was felt elsewhere. Just odd and funny. I really would like to see her have some battles beyond what's expected, maybe not with Rand for some reason (she's elsewhere when he has to go to the bore), and she and Lan come in fighting around Rand/Moraine/whoever he's bonded with, just something different.

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shaidar haran i don't think could be killed, if you destroy one husk, another will exist inside the same day. i don't think it is special or unique, it is the dark one's hand, and destroying what embodies it wont destroy it. so more than one person may fight this idea, but all those fights would be meaningless so long as there are eyeless to walk into the pit.

 

Ah-ha! Nerd powers, activate!

 

Quoth RJ: "I was wondering if someone would notice that. Yes, that was a kind of Shadar Haran 1.0, the beta, if you will."

 

Re: The Fade that visited Carridan. Who, incidentally, smiled and had an evil sense of humor.

 

Fades don't have a sense of humor. We are told this multiple times..

 

So no, not just a husk. Something that had to be made.

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