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Andhaira

Why the heck did Rand destroy the Choden Kal?

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There's another potential point everyone is missing... when the Choden Kal is first mentioned, there is a prominent figure present- Lanfear. She continually tells Rand that with the Choden Kal she and Rand/LTT could together defeat the DO, and even challenge the creator. This is where we get a glimpse of her desire to set herself up on Mt. Olympus, divine power to go with her great, unnatural yet natural beauty, with the most powerful man in any age at her side.

 

Lanfear has been absent from the story since the cleansing save in referenced conversation; I don't think she had even been present in any meetings of the Chosen we've seen since then. If she knew of the female CK being destroyed, she could still design a plot to connect herself to the man who holds the male CK. Now that that is destroyed, the story line is wide open again as her character is reintroduced... and this time there won't be any way that she can challenge the DO, let alone the creator... from tEotW: "NO, IT IS NOT HERE. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE" can accomplish yada-yada-yada.

 

I've always believed that this was the creator speaking in Rand's mind... and now I start thinking "IT" refers to Callandor.

Edited by Taelin

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Rand may have realized ultimately he could lose the access key and if a DF or Forsaken got it, it would be game over, he got what he needed out of it and now it was time to end it to protect the pattern, he wasn't chosen by the pattern to be the dragon for nothing

 

This is what I think too. I'm pretty sure (but don't take my word for it) that Rand admits just this at some point. That the CK was too much of a risk to keep around.

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Lanfear has been absent from the story since the cleansing save in referenced conversation; I don't think she had even been present in any meetings of the Chosen we've seen since then.

 

She was present at the Forsaken meeting in KoD Ch.3.

 

Also in TGS prologue it talks about how her and Moghedien are rallying Darkfriends to kill Mat and Perrin.

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The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

And the fact that we don't know that Callandor is flawed.

Yes we do. RJ said it was:
JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

From the interview database.

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I always thought the Choedan Kal access keys were sculptures made of almond bark chocolate. Rand "destroyed it" (as in ate it). He was denying himself of that delicious chocolate (since he was obviously on a diet) and that's the reason he was in a bad mood. Once he ate it, he's been happy ever since. He's finally realized that for one to be on a successful diet, one can't deny themselves of what they want. They need to make a lifestyle change and remove any negative thoughts.

During the Cleansing, Nynaeve's hands were simply sweaty. Thus the reason why that one melted.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... chocolate........

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Guest PiotrekS

The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

And the fact that we don't know that Callandor is flawed.

Yes we do. RJ said it was:
JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

From the interview database.

 

What I find weird in this quote is a reference to mass production. Did they really mass produce such powerful sa'angreals like Callandor? The manufacturing flaw could happen even if it was a hand-made, very special thing so that's ok, but I find it doubtful that they had hundreds of sa'angreals of Callandor's strength.

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The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

And the fact that we don't know that Callandor is flawed.

Yes we do. RJ said it was:
JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

From the interview database.

 

What I find weird in this quote is a reference to mass production. Did they really mass produce such powerful sa'angreals like Callandor? The manufacturing flaw could happen even if it was a hand-made, very special thing so that's ok, but I find it doubtful that they had hundreds of sa'angreals of Callandor's strength.

 

Considering the population of the AoL, there would have been hundreds of millions of channellers. It wouldn't be impossible to mass produce sangreal.

Edited by Master Ablar

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It almost made him destroy everything. I think it was the only thing capable of even beginning to corrupt LTT, as LTT wasn't willing to touch it in the first place.

 

Taking the Dragon is the shadow's only real way of victory. I think destroying the CK broke the Shadow's last chance of claiming the fisher king and winning the game.

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About mass production (MP): I've wondered about that as well. In the real world, MP generally results in quantities of identical widgets. AFAIK, all the *angreals that we've seen so far are unique, no copies anywhere - with the notable exception of the a'dams. But there is only one Callandor.

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The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

And the fact that we don't know that Callandor is flawed.

Yes we do. RJ said it was:
JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

From the interview database.

 

What I find weird in this quote is a reference to mass production. Did they really mass produce such powerful sa'angreals like Callandor? The manufacturing flaw could happen even if it was a hand-made, very special thing so that's ok, but I find it doubtful that they had hundreds of sa'angreals of Callandor's strength.

 

Considering the population of the AoL, there would have been hundreds of millions of channellers. It wouldn't be impossible to mass produce sangreal.

 

Uhm, no. Channelers have always been rare.

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Guest PiotrekS

I don't have a problem with mass production of sa'angreals (maybe apart from the fact that, as has been pointed out above, we haven't seen even a small number of identical objects of the Power). But the mass production of sa'angreals of Callandor's strenth? It is totally different, it would be like mass production of personal nuclear bombs.

Edited by PiotrekS

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It almost made him destroy everything. I think it was the only thing capable of even beginning to corrupt LTT, as LTT wasn't willing to touch it in the first place.

 

Taking the Dragon is the shadow's only real way of victory. I think destroying the CK broke the Shadow's last chance of claiming the fisher king and winning the game.

 

If the shadow had the CK in their possession, a million dragons would have made no difference.

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The Choden Kal is much more stronger than Callandor AND it doesn't have a flaw. It would have been an invaluable help on Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Why the heck did Rand destroy it? With it, he could just have gone to the Blight and wiped out all the Trollocs there by himself. Heck, he could have destroyed the seals and then once the Dark One got free, he could have challenged him to a one on one.

 

What gives?

 

Another question, why did the female Choden Kal get destroyed? Was it flawed?

And the fact that we don't know that Callandor is flawed.

Yes we do. RJ said it was:
JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

RJ: Yes

 

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?

RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

From the interview database.

 

What I find weird in this quote is a reference to mass production. Did they really mass produce such powerful sa'angreals like Callandor? The manufacturing flaw could happen even if it was a hand-made, very special thing so that's ok, but I find it doubtful that they had hundreds of sa'angreals of Callandor's strength.

 

Considering the population of the AoL, there would have been hundreds of millions of channellers. It wouldn't be impossible to mass produce sangreal.

 

Uhm, no. Channelers have always been rare.

 

Channellers are rare in comparison to non-channellers. However if the population as a whole is greater, the number of channellers will increase. The number of channellers is proportional to the total population. It's like 2-3% of the entire population are channellers (in the AoL, it's lower in the 3rd Age, only 1%). The population of the AoL must have been huge considering there was no sickness, no war, very long lives, reduced poverty, plenty of food, etc.. Basically the population in the AoL was very likely greater by quite a bit than that of our world. The population of our world is nearly 7 billion. 3% of that is 210 million and 2% is 140 million. And like I said the AoL being what it was, their population must have been greater.

Edited by Master Ablar

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nuclear power does not differentiate at all.

 

But the kal in the hands of rand or logain can take out all the trollocs of the earth with that weave we seen in the stone of tear before they take a step outside the blight.

 

The kal was destroyed because it was a hindrance to the plot. It served it's purpose in cleansing the taint. It was time to get rid of it.

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About mass production (MP): I've wondered about that as well. In the real world, MP generally results in quantities of identical widgets. AFAIK, all the *angreals that we've seen so far are unique, no copies anywhere - with the notable exception of the a'dams. But there is only one Callandor.

 

Well there are multiple Oath Rods, Dream Spikes, multiple glass columns within Rhuidean as well as the testing arches in both Rhuidean and the White Tower that are similar in nature, two twisted red doorframe gateways leading to the Fins land, multiple wells (same function just varied in power/design), there are 3 independent guardians blocking the One Power in Far Madding, etc.

 

Consider this. The Forsaken can recall TONS of common items from the AoL and not a single one like the shocklance, view-walls, sho-wings, glowbulbs, air exchangers, etc has made it to this age. Every single one was destroyed with the exception of what was found in the stasis boxes (of which there were multiple stasis boxes and they also presumably used the OP to function). Before you say that these items were just the technologic Randland equivalent of Light Bulbs and Air Conditioners and not ter'angreal, remember that Sammael found some of these and was using them. I don't think Randland has electricity, so that would be hard to pull off, plus Moridin later confirms they're objects of the OP. Now consider in today's real world how many technologic items are mass produced.

 

How many unique ter'angreal items have we seen in Randland that we know their use? maybe 30? What are the chances you look around yourself right now and find of the next 30 mass-produced things you see, many are duplicates?

Edited by Sealed to the Flame

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Part of the reason, too, may be that ter'angreal that are too similar to one another tend to melt when used near each other. This would have a balancing influence on the nature of mass production--as in, it wouldn't stop duplicates being produced, but production lines would be unlikely, and if your making something seperately its far more likely that there will be divergence in design unless the object was produced for an official purpose, such as the binders....

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About mass production (MP): I've wondered about that as well. In the real world, MP generally results in quantities of identical widgets. AFAIK, all the *angreals that we've seen so far are unique, no copies anywhere - with the notable exception of the a'dams. But there is only one Callandor.

 

Well there are multiple Oath Rods, Dream Spikes, multiple glass columns within Rhuidean as well as the testing arches in both Rhuidean and the White Tower that are similar in nature, two twisted red doorframe gateways leading to the Fins land, multiple wells (same function just varied in power/design), there are 3 independent guardians blocking the One Power in Far Madding, etc.

 

Good point, I'd forgotten those. Though I think the Rhuidean columns may constitute a single ter'angreal, likewise the Guardians; and the 'twisted red doorways' have different markings - the Aelfinn doorway has wavy lines, the Eelfin has triangles. But your general point is valid.

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Good point, I'd forgotten those. Though I think the Rhuidean columns may constitute a single ter'angreal, likewise the Guardians; and the 'twisted red doorways' have different markings - the Aelfinn doorway has wavy lines, the Eelfin has triangles. But your general point is valid.

 

Also, mass-produced doesn't necessarily mean they were on a conveyer belt in a factory being made as exact copies. The dragons being 'mass-produced' by the bell-founders are based off of the same plans, but I'm sure you'd find variations from one to another. They're still all made individually.

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Rand may have destroyed CK as a last ditch effort to save the planet. Just reread it:

It isn't clear, but Rand does draw too much of the power and had that been dumped, a new drogonmount wouldn't have been in it, the planet may have evaporated, and only by destroying the source of the excess power could he "close the tap"

 

a population of 100-200 mil sounds good (maybe a little high) but compare that to school teachers who have duties almost all of the year, doctors who have duties all year long, Police/Aurors busy.

Compare that to the percent of people in research (2-5% maybe) : professors, chemists, engineers and doctors.

Also imagine how much of that percent of a percent were working on bridges and buildings, all those terangreal that were dependent on standing wave technology (the standing waves don't exist to power those anymore) and other infrastructure components that might be analogous to upgrades in the wired/fiber-optic data networks, wireless communication and data networks, etc. Maintaining weather terangreal and other devices that required operators.

What percentage didn't have talents or strength? LTT and Mierin were exceptionally strong in their day. what did it take to create saangreals? they probably only recklessly pursued projects like that during wartime when they were already distracted and trying to fight a two front war (the shadow to the north and the darkfriends behind enemy lines...

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It is the too powerful for any one to wield without being corrupted by the lust for it's power. As others have mentioned, it will not be an act of the One Power directly that will stop the Dark One. And anyone acting with it's power my well destroy everything trying to destroy the DO.

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It is the too powerful for any one to wield without being corrupted by the lust for it's power. As others have mentioned, it will not be an act of the One Power directly that will stop the Dark One. And anyone acting with it's power my well destroy everything trying to destroy the DO.

 

Yes, but the counter to that is Rand himself used it to fix a wrong and now he has destroyed it. So it cannot be used in the future. That just seems hypocritical.

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It is the too powerful for any one to wield without being corrupted by the lust for it's power. As others have mentioned, it will not be an act of the One Power directly that will stop the Dark One. And anyone acting with it's power my well destroy everything trying to destroy the DO.

It was only used twice to great effect, and neither time has Rand felt a 'lust for power'. True, he debated with himself whether he could be trusted with it, but that was after his failings with Callandor (combined with the fact that he thought he was going crazy). And he wasn't 'lustful' at Dragonmount, he just intended to destroy everything.

 

But who says it needed to be used to defeat the DO himself?

Rand could be lounging on his throne somewhere, then casually open a gateway to his side and launch a wall of flame the length of the bloody horizon away over the countryside of the Blight.

Sure, a ridiculous scenario for the Lightsiders (Shai'tan forbid they do anything other than bicker amongst themselves), but the CK were a game-breaking pair the minute Mr. Jordan introduced them.

 

A reasonably strong Aes Sedai, a swordsman and a bunch of backwater farmers trek through the Blight unscathed, yet the Dragon himself armed with the most powerful weapon in the world can't think of anything creative to unleash up there? Surely that forge that creates weapons using peoples bloody souls is worth looking into. Fool Rand, he should've given the thing to Mat to play with :laugh:

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It is the too powerful for any one to wield without being corrupted by the lust for it's power. As others have mentioned, it will not be an act of the One Power directly that will stop the Dark One. And anyone acting with it's power my well destroy everything trying to destroy the DO.

 

Yes, but the counter to that is Rand himself used it to fix a wrong and now he has destroyed it. So it cannot be used in the future. That just seems hypocritical.

 

The future will have to deal with itself. He's trying to deal with the present. He can't be planning for all the catastrophes that could befall the world in who knows how long into the future. He believed the risk was too high.

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It is the too powerful for any one to wield without being corrupted by the lust for it's power. As others have mentioned, it will not be an act of the One Power directly that will stop the Dark One. And anyone acting with it's power my well destroy everything trying to destroy the DO.

It was only used twice to great effect, and neither time has Rand felt a 'lust for power'. True, he debated with himself whether he could be trusted with it, but that was after his failings with Callandor (combined with the fact that he thought he was going crazy). And he wasn't 'lustful' at Dragonmount, he just intended to destroy everything.

 

But who says it needed to be used to defeat the DO himself?

Rand could be lounging on his throne somewhere, then casually open a gateway to his side and launch a wall of flame the length of the bloody horizon away over the countryside of the Blight.

Sure, a ridiculous scenario for the Lightsiders (Shai'tan forbid they do anything other than bicker amongst themselves), but the CK were a game-breaking pair the minute Mr. Jordan introduced them.

 

A reasonably strong Aes Sedai, a swordsman and a bunch of backwater farmers trek through the Blight unscathed, yet the Dragon himself armed with the most powerful weapon in the world can't think of anything creative to unleash up there? Surely that forge that creates weapons using peoples bloody souls is worth looking into. Fool Rand, he should've given the thing to Mat to play with :laugh:

 

 

I agree. what a waste of a weapon.the kal was a game breaker though. Any ashaman or logain could take the kal and wipe out all the trollocs on the blight in a blink while rand does his thing on shayol ghul.

 

 

 

But like i said, where's the fun in that. No dreadlords, fades or trollocs bashing means boring shit. That's why team jordan got rid of the kal and introduced a stupid reason like 'it was tooooooooo dangerous to be used' Not dangerous enough to cleanse saidin eh?

Edited by Elan Tedronai

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