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The Fisher King

Which Ta'veren Has Performed The Darkest Deeds?

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I don't know what got me thinking about this, but it interested me.

 

 

Maybe because it is so hard to judge. Maybe because it is surprising when - upon close inspection - you realize just how many unseemly things the Big Three have really done.

 

 

I mean, Mat has shot three people. And, ironically enough - ALL THREE were WOMEN!

 

 

Perrin chopped off the hands AND feet of several Shaido in Book 10 just to get information concerning his kidnapped fiancee's wherabouts. (This was a particularly disturbing scene - even though I think RJ was on record as saying it was an intentional homage to Misery, by King).

 

 

Rand...Oh, Rand. Where do we begin? The list is too long to begin now - especially since Rand has already made Lews Therin's list of tragic deeds look miniscule.

 

Poor Min. Poor Liah. Poor Moiraine. Poor...need I continue, lol? ;)

For a guy so determined to not harm women, he cuts quite a destructive path through them - does he not?

 

 

 

Fish

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If you look at sheer numbers, Rand is definitely ahead, what with balefiring all of Natrim Barrow and all.

 

Perrin only chopped off one hand if I recall, though he threatened to do more.

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Rand. Btw, Faile has been Perrin's wife since book... Seven, or so. Not his fiancee.

 

They were married in The Shadow Rising, according to (modified) Two Rivers customs. Perrin had to 'petition' Davram and Deira after the marriage; they could claim it was illegitimate due to Faile's age requiring approval from her parents, IIRC. Their consent wasn't what made Perrin and Faile's marital status official, though, it just prevented their marriage from being annulled (or it made their original wedding ceremony legit retroactively, either way they've been married since TSR.)

 

I'm also going to have to vote for Perrin. Our heroes have done some dark things, but they've almost always been either necessary or mitigated somehow. Mat has only ever killed in defense of his own or someone else's life (ambushing soldiers who would kill/enslave you on sight counts, in my opinion.) Rand... well, the Taint explains a lot of his dourness, but even so I don't think he's done anything seriously morally questionable. Perrin is the only one where you have to pause and think whether the ends justify the means (which seems to be his thing.) The notion that he'll stop doing evil deeds when he no longer needs to plug his nose to do them... eh. He's still not a bad guy, overall, but yeah.

Edited by Swithin

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Women who spent the past year wandering around enslaving entire villages. You do have to look at both sides. After all we don't accuse the police of kidnapping every time they arrest somebody.

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Rand...Oh, Rand. Where do we begin? The list is too long to begin now - especially since Rand has already made Lews Therin's list of tragic deeds look miniscule.

 

Poor Min. Poor Liah. Poor Moiraine. Poor...need I continue, lol? ;)

For a guy so determined to not harm women, he cuts quite a destructive path through them - does he not?

 

 

 

Fish

 

What exactly has Rand done that equates to murdering your wife and children?

 

Min - attacked thru the Domination Band where he has no self control.

Liah - Wanders off herself in Shadar Logoth and Rand mercy kills the tortured, insane husk left behind.

Moiraine - Attacks Lanfear of her own choice and Rand has no chance or ability to stop her.

 

Of the bad things that Rand has done I'm not sure why you choose three examples that he did nothing wrong in.

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I'd have to say Perrin. The torture of the Shaido, in cold blood, without a dire need, was really, really on the dark side. For all the other deeds mentioned, I can find explanations or even excuses, but that thing, for only his personal (possible) gain reallt does npt have any excuse imo.

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Well Perrin handed over 700 women to perpetual slavery.. that's not all that nice.

 

Really it was only 300, but yes it still isn't all that nice (yet deserved).

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Mat can be an ass sometimes, but he's a good guy overall.

Rand gets a lot of points for not destroying the world already with all his problems, like torture, hearing voices, taint, AS 'advisers', constant DO/Forsaken/shadowspawn/darkfriends attacks/plotting.

Perrin, Perrin, Perrin. He did some things that almost made me pass him to the E. Section, like taking 1000 years to save Faile(or better yet, taking any time to save Faile), missing his chance to hit Galina, chopping some limbs, taking another 1000 years to deal with Galad, taking the Dreamspike to Tar Valon(I was curious to see the AS plan to capture Mesanna unfold without his hardware), and the constant moping ahhhhhhhh.

He's still a good friend to Rand, and the forging of the hammer earned him some points, but the moping was just plain cruel(and torturing millions of readers like that was just inhumane).

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Mat: I don't think has done anything wrong. He only kills people who have tried to hurt or kill him before, and has felt regret for all three of those women (even though they don't deserve that).

 

Rand: I think he's done some bad things, and some of them are really big ones (like balefireing that castle) but I can't blame him because he's the Dragon Reborn, and he has a LOT more on his shoulders than the other two. No one can be the person he is without doing a few bad things.

 

Perrin is the one I don't feel sorry for. He behaved like such a jerk during those chapters when Faile was captured. He didn't care about ANYONE but her. Even though he was supposed to be a lord, he didn't act like a lord at all. I especially didn't like it when he didn't allow the Aes Sedai to stay behind and try to help when they came across that village - It's not like they were of much use to him anyways (they were only being Apprentices to the WO). He was just being an idiot because his wife had been kidnapped. Why does he think that just because Faile wasn't being saved that nobody else deserves to be saved? Mat and Rand would at least try to help (most of the time anyways).

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the balefiring of Natrin's Barrow would probably be the "darkest" deed since most of them were probably innocent.

 

Next darkest might be making Shaido Wise Ones into damane.

At least these reasons::

-It was an act of revenge; revenge I consider wrong.

-Damane are a type of property; no person should be property.

-Damane are also a type of slave; slavery is best done when the slave has some kind of debt toward the other.

 

Depending on interpretation, gambling might be considered "dark".

Edited by mb

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the balefiring of Natrin's Barrow would probably be the "darkest" deed since most of them were probably innocent.

 

While I don't necessary disagree, it should be pointed out that Rand knew that pretty much everybody there was brain-dead from excessive Compulsion before he balefired them.

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Darkest is burning Natrin's Barrow. It is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it's populated by Grandeal's "walking dead", but for sure there were some in the castle who were not.

 

Close second is sending 200+ Wise ones to a fate worse the death (as many, and Aiel most of all, would see it).

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Perrin wins hands down.

 

Rand did some pretty horrible things, but keep in mind that he is trying (as best he can) to keep the world from falling apart while having to confront the fact that he'll have to die in order to defeat the Dark One. Yes, balefiring Natrim's Barrow was extreme, but weighed against the damage Graendal could do if left to roam free I can understand it. As for Moiraine, Liah and the other women - the only one you can blame him for is Moiraine, and that is only if you believe that he could have killed Lanfear when she confronted him earlier.

 

Mat really hasn't done much that qualifies as horrible. Yes, he killed some women. However, those women had either tried to kill him first, or were trying to do something that would put the people with him in mortal danger. As a woman I think the "no harm to women" ideal goes out the window if she tries to stick a knife in you.

 

Perrin, oh Perrin. He tortured Aiel, even though he should have known that it wouldn't get him the information he craved. He ignored people's plight (when he was in a position to help them!) for no better reason than Faile's kidnapping. He pushed those who followed him mercilessly, ignoring all common sense and advice, for no better reason than Faile's kidnapping. He let Galina get away, even though anyone with half a brain could tell she was dodgy! Actually, my biggest problem with Perrin is simply that his supposed morals and values do not match up with his actions..

Edited by Ashlyn

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I am going with Perrin. He knew the fate of the Shaido Wise Ones when he made the deal with the Seachan all so he could have their help rescuing one person. If his intentions were to wage a war because that is what needed to be done, then that would have mitigated the situation some, but his intentions were to save Faile.

 

Rand's BF'ing of Natrim's Barrow were mitigated by the Compulsion factor. Another mitigating factor is that he destroyed one of the Forsaken in the attack. While there is no good real-world analogy, I'll go to Star Wars. Would killing 200 innocents to kill Darth Vader be worth it? It is very "the ends justifies the means" type of discussion. If a Forsaken would not have been killed, then I think Rand would be back in the lead.

 

I think Mat is a distant third.

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First, mat only killed 1 woman directly and second gave order. Who's the 3rd one?

 

Second, perrin only chopped off one hand no more than that and left his axe after.

 

So preVoG Rand is def the first in the list.

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I'd have to say Perrin. The torture of the Shaido, in cold blood, without a dire need, was really, really on the dark side. For all the other deeds mentioned, I can find explanations or even excuses, but that thing, for only his personal (possible) gain reallt does npt have any excuse imo.

 

People keep saying this, but they ignore the fact that the torture started before he knew they were captured. He was the one who stopped it. Yes he chopped off the aiel's hand, which the aiel could care less about. All he did was put the fear into them. If it wasn't for him they would have been tortured until they died a slow painful death.

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Guest Czechs In The M'Hael

Rand. No two ways about it. The idea of proffiting from Lans death is probably about as bad as it got, or the thing on how to fight someone smarter than you.

 

Perrin would be second. Mat has about as much darkness in him as someone that doesnt have any.

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Oh the Perrin hate... stop bashing the guy because he's in love, it all worked out in the end.

 

Good did come from his attacking the Shaido (and he's not moping any more to boot), he decimated the Shaido and Masema's zealots, which can only be to the good. Who cares about the Shaido Wise Ones really? Now they're both stopped from spreading chaos, and hey, I'm not arguing that it wasn't pretty but Perrin, Mat and Rand are waging a war so they're going to get their hands dirty from time to time.

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Rand's BF'ing of Natrim's Barrow were mitigated by the Compulsion factor. Another mitigating factor is that he destroyed one of the Forsaken in the attack. While there is no good real-world analogy, I'll go to Star Wars. Would killing 200 innocents to kill Darth Vader be worth it? It is very "the ends justifies the means" type of discussion. If a Forsaken would not have been killed, then I think Rand would be back in the lead.

There were supposedly over one million people on the Death Star, including a large number of civilians. In one of the books, Luke actually quotes the number of people he killed that day. As has been noted, most people in there were under heavy compulsion. Some might not have been - if I recall, the books indicated that most everyone was, but there's always a chance that that's not the case - but most were effectively already walking dead. As for the rest? As Rand notes in FOH, if not earlier, people are dying in the war no matter what he does. All he can do is try to minimize the death and destruction. Taking out one of the Forsaken at the cost of her brain dead servants? In the long term, very much worth it.

 

Rand's darkest deed that he went through with as I see it is probably looking to ally with the Seanchan. A close second is sending men to die to protect the Borderlands, with no real intention (at the time) of doing anything to reinforce them, just using them to slow down the Trollocs and give him more time elsewhere.

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