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LemonPastie

I know the exact date AMOL 1st draft will be finished!

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I could care less about the so-called quality and polish, I have no desire to wait another year or two.

 

The polish can be done in the 2nd printing.

 

Finish the series.

 

I have to say I agree. I would rather have the ending sooner rather than later, if the difference is merely 300 typos versus 30.

 

If that were the case I would agree but as we all know that isn't what an extended editing process is about.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

If that were the case I would agree but as we all know that isn't what an extended editing process is about.

 

That's fair. Straw man. My mistake. I am itching to get my hands on AMoL and it leads me to sometimes be rash. =)

 

I hope Team Jordan takes as much time as it needs to finish the book to its satisfaction, and not one second longer.

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I hope they take as much time as they need to get it right and done by next week...

 

There I go. Now I have the rash. That thing is awfully contagious. Man that itches...

I need an ointment and I also need to stay away from here if I don't want this thing getting any worse.

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i never notice typo's so it doesn't make a difference to me (tho i did spot one in ToM something like mat ran to mat...? cant remember...)

but i do want the book to be edited as much as it needs to to make sure that the last book is a good as it should be and if that takes another year then it takes another year but if it take 6 months and has been polished up then i wont complain :biggrin:

 

edit: typos hehe :tongue:

Edited by Bookworm101

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i never notice typo's so it doesn't make a difference to me (tho i did spot one in ToM something like mat ran to mat...? cant remember...)

but i do want the book to be edited as much as it needs to to make sure that the last book is a good as it should be and if that takes another year then it takes another year but if it take 6 months and has been polished up then i wont complain :biggrin:

 

edit: typos hehe :tongue:

 

 

What? There were so many typos and the 'polish' was not present in ToM or tGS. But like I said, I could care less. Just release the last book ASAP.

 

George R.R Martin took 5+ years to write book#5 and the fans disliked it...Delaying =/= better result. At least The Game of Thrones TV show is awesome, best TV show around.

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definitely want this last one to be as good as possible, no matter how long it takes, or whether st peter has to order it for me from amazon.

 

cindy, you are my flaming' hero.

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Despite some of the problems that some of DM's critics have posted about here on these forums, it appears from my reading of the various threads in these forums that TGS and ToM were both very well received, and popular with DM's fandom as being 2 of the better books of the WOT series.

 

 

The issue with this is that the response is largely based on plot gratification. The things that happen in tGS and TofM are amazing. How they happen, and how that is dipicted is not--it's blunt, and ugly to read... which is fine to a degree, as Enteri shows--and for that matter I remember talking glowingly of TofM, sustained by the thrill of the plot revelations and developments... however, as time passes, the more that no longer holds true. Now knowing what happens, returning to them, I find them difficult to read. Lacking the polish Jordan gave his works, they loose the vitality which made them so great, and enables people to imerse themselves--and it is this quality which made his books so re-readable.

 

I'd shrug off all of this, and just be happy to know the conclusion at all, and thankful beyond words to Mr. Sanderson--except that I have seen him write polished material. He is capable of it. He just didn't--which, again, as I have said before is likely a response to the demand for speedy release, and I certainly don't envy Mr. Sanderson that pressure--but for all that it was still something I believe he accepted responsibility for when he accepted the role.

 

That may be harsh of me. Likely it is. But even so...

 

And unfortunately Enteri, its exceedingly unlikely there will ever be a second polished edition produced once the initial is published--I would love if there were, and pay for it, but its very unlikely.

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Guest PiotrekS
Despite some of the problems that some of DM's critics have posted about here on these forums, it appears from my reading of the various threads in these forums that TGS and ToM were both very well received, and popular with DM's fandom as being 2 of the better books of the WOT series.

 

 

The issue with this is that the response is largely based on plot gratification. The things that happen in tGS and TofM are amazing. How they happen, and how that is dipicted is not--it's blunt, and ugly to read... which is fine to a degree, as Enteri shows--and for that matter I remember talking glowingly of TofM, sustained by the thrill of the plot revelations and developments... however, as time passes, the more that no longer holds true. Now knowing what happens, returning to them, I find them difficult to read. Lacking the polish Jordan gave his works, they loose the vitality which made them so great, and enables people to imerse themselves--and it is this quality which made his books so re-readable.

 

I'd shrug off all of this, and just be happy to know the conclusion at all, and thankful beyond words to Mr. Sanderson--except that I have seen him write polished material. He is capable of it. He just didn't--which, again, as I have said before is likely a response to the demand for speedy release, and I certainly don't envy Mr. Sanderson that pressure--but for all that it was still something I believe he accepted responsibility for when he accepted the role.

 

That may be harsh of me. Likely it is. But even so...

 

And unfortunately Enteri, its exceedingly unlikely there will ever be a second polished edition produced once the initial is published--I would love if there were, and pay for it, but its very unlikely.

 

I definitely agree, especially about TGS. Literature is not only about plot!

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But TGS is hardly only about the plot, in fact it's one of the best books in the series in terms of character development. Personally I find it much more enjoyable to reread than more than half of the earlier volumes.

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But TGS is hardly only about the plot, in fact it's one of the best books in the series in terms of character development. Personally I find it much more enjoyable to reread than more than half of the earlier volumes.

 

I was including that development [any sort of development] in my comment [and in some ways character development is a form of plot development]--these elements are amazing, which is what is over-all holding the book together and leading to the vastly positive response, and the final climaxes are of course some of the more polished work, and thus we get the payoff, but the development itself suffers the same clunky lack of polish as the rest of the plot.

 

As I said, the point is not so much about what happens (which is great) its how it is written (which is not)--though again, as I've said, Sanderson can do this, he does have the skill, and there are scenes which show it. He just needs more time to use these skills--and too, he himself needs to prioritize the polish, which I'm not sure he is doing given Harriet needed to step in and demand the longer edit period.

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Guest PiotrekS

I'm not sure if I agree about character development in TGS being so great, but I wanted to say something else.

There are a few well-written scenes in TGS (what I recall now is a part of the prologue, Rand-Semirhage-Min and VoG), but apart from that, the writing is definitely too blunt, as Luckers called it.

 

I agree with Mr Sanderson's decision not to mimick Mr Jordan's writing voice, but apparenly I understood it differently than he meant. I thought he would avoid using RJ's mannerisms etc., but the language itself would be kept in line with the world and the style of the story. Yet the language in the new books feels much more modern and casual to me, which, coupled with the more direct method of storytelling, makes it more difficult to immerse myself in the story. In earlier tomes, I had a feeling I was reading a story from long ago - the language was not archaized, but it was not feeling modern either. It did not detract from the story. In new books, I can't help but feel that I'm reading a modern, 21st century story about some distant fantastic past. Some words are being used which don't belong in such a story and that definitely could be made better in AMoL.

Edited by PiotrekS

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I hope they take as much time as they need to get it right and done by next week...

 

There I go. Now I have the rash. That thing is awfully contagious. Man that itches...

I need an ointment and I also need to stay away from here if I don't want this thing getting any worse.

 

Hi Emu I hope your itchy rash is better. There's another ailment to look out for though...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gastro Entreri-tis :biggrin:

 

(Sorry, couldn't help myself)

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He just needs more time to use these skills--and too, he himself needs to prioritize the polish, which I'm not sure he is doing given Harriet needed to step in and demand the longer edit period.

 

Are we sure that it was Harriet that asked for more time? Maybe Brandon asked for it. Maybe he was the one being pushed to hurry when he would have preferred to take more time. And, frankly, a decent sized portion of this lack of polish needs to be laid at the feet of the editing team rather than just the author. He's ultimately responsible for the final product, but polishing the product is the whole point of having an editor.

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I'm not sure if I agree about character development in TGS being so great' date=' but I wanted to say something else.

There are a few well-written scenes in TGS (what I recall now is a part of the prologue, Rand-Semirhage-Min and VoG), but apart from that, the writing is definitely too blunt, as Luckers called it.

 

I agree with Mr Sanderson's decision not to mimick Mr Jordan's writing voice, but apparenly I understood it differently than he meant. I thought he would avoid using RJ's mannerisms etc., but the language itself would be kept in line with the world and the style of the story. Yet the language in the new books feels much more modern and casual to me, which, coupled with the more direct method of storytelling, makes it more difficult to immerse myself in the story. In earlier tomes, I had a feeling I was reading a story from long ago - the language was not archaized, but it was not feeling modern either. It did not detract from the story. In new books, I can't help but feel that I'm reading a modern, 21st century story about some distant fantastic past. Some words are being used which don't belong in such a story and that definitely could be made better in AMoL.[/quote']

 

Spot on. I agree. But it is not unexpectetd in my opinion.

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Despite some of the problems that some of DM's critics have posted about here on these forums, it appears from my reading of the various threads in these forums that TGS and ToM were both very well received, and popular with DM's fandom as being 2 of the better books of the WOT series.

 

 

The issue with this is that the response is largely based on plot gratification. The things that happen in tGS and TofM are amazing. How they happen, and how that is dipicted is not--it's blunt, and ugly to read... which is fine to a degree, as Enteri shows--and for that matter I remember talking glowingly of TofM, sustained by the thrill of the plot revelations and developments... however, as time passes, the more that no longer holds true. Now knowing what happens, returning to them, I find them difficult to read. Lacking the polish Jordan gave his works, they loose the vitality which made them so great, and enables people to imerse themselves--and it is this quality which made his books so re-readable.

 

I'd shrug off all of this, and just be happy to know the conclusion at all, and thankful beyond words to Mr. Sanderson--except that I have seen him write polished material. He is capable of it. He just didn't--which, again, as I have said before is likely a response to the demand for speedy release, and I certainly don't envy Mr. Sanderson that pressure--but for all that it was still something I believe he accepted responsibility for when he accepted the role.

 

That may be harsh of me. Likely it is. But even so...

 

Totally agree, I can understand that people may say TGS or ToM was up with their favorites mainly due to plot gratification after so many years and a faster pace. But I can't understand at all how anyone would say the books are better in quality. The writing is a significant drop off from the work RJ did up until KoD.

 

Since it isn't possible that they would release a rough draft(nor should they) and then go on to clean it up later I think they are on the right track with this extra time taken. I would be sorely disappointed if the final book and culmination of RJ's life work suffered from the same issues as the previous two.

Edited by Suttree

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He just needs more time to use these skills--and too, he himself needs to prioritize the polish, which I'm not sure he is doing given Harriet needed to step in and demand the longer edit period.

 

Are we sure that it was Harriet that asked for more time? Maybe Brandon asked for it. Maybe he was the one being pushed to hurry when he would have preferred to take more time. And, frankly, a decent sized portion of this lack of polish needs to be laid at the feet of the editing team rather than just the author. He's ultimately responsible for the final product, but polishing the product is the whole point of having an editor.

 

Yes, we are sure it was Harriet. Brandon stated it directly.

 

Beyond that, no, polishing is still the responsibility of the writer. Jordan used to do as much as 8 to 10 drafts before he sent the manuscript to Harriet. Brandon does 2. Editors exist to catch mistakes--typos, continuity errors, and so forth--and I agree, they need more time to do this--but the quality of the writing--the polish of the prose itself--is the sole responsibility of the writer.

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Guest PiotrekS

I think that Brandon simply is not in the position to prolong the writing the way RJ could, so I don't expect him to be making the same number of drafts and writing a book for e.g. three years. He is contractually bound to produce a book within certain deadlines (I assume). He also is not able to commit as much of his time because, even though finishing WOT is a great honour, he can't totally abandon his own books for too long and therefore probably would not like to spend ten or more years on writing exclusively three last books in WOT, which is something RJ could have done.

 

Nevertheless, even taking the above into account, the quality of the writing can and should be better IMHO.

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I disagree...Brandon's books IMO has been far more enjoyable than the last 4 WOT books by Jordan. Which to put it mildly sucked. Not sure what polish everyone is talking about, but I found the last 2 books fine except for some minor typos, I can live with that.

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He just needs more time to use these skills--and too, he himself needs to prioritize the polish, which I'm not sure he is doing given Harriet needed to step in and demand the longer edit period.

 

Are we sure that it was Harriet that asked for more time? Maybe Brandon asked for it. Maybe he was the one being pushed to hurry when he would have preferred to take more time. And, frankly, a decent sized portion of this lack of polish needs to be laid at the feet of the editing team rather than just the author. He's ultimately responsible for the final product, but polishing the product is the whole point of having an editor.

 

Yes, we are sure it was Harriet. Brandon stated it directly.

 

Beyond that, no, polishing is still the responsibility of the writer. Jordan used to do as much as 8 to 10 drafts before he sent the manuscript to Harriet. Brandon does 2. Editors exist to catch mistakes--typos, continuity errors, and so forth--and I agree, they need more time to do this--but the quality of the writing--the polish of the prose itself--is the sole responsibility of the writer.

 

Things like using more modern sounding language, using tempest excessively, using bloody ashes which has never been done before, etc. These types of things need to be caught by the editor. Making suggestions about not being so blunt with reveals (although this one doesn't really bother me personally). Suggesting that characters had previously not explained so much of things on page in their "thoughts". Yes, the author has ultimate responsibility. But editors aren't and shouldn't be just proofreaders. Let's not pretend that Team Jordan is blameless in some of these problems.

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He just needs more time to use these skills--and too, he himself needs to prioritize the polish, which I'm not sure he is doing given Harriet needed to step in and demand the longer edit period.

 

Are we sure that it was Harriet that asked for more time? Maybe Brandon asked for it. Maybe he was the one being pushed to hurry when he would have preferred to take more time. And, frankly, a decent sized portion of this lack of polish needs to be laid at the feet of the editing team rather than just the author. He's ultimately responsible for the final product, but polishing the product is the whole point of having an editor.

 

Yes, we are sure it was Harriet. Brandon stated it directly.

 

Beyond that, no, polishing is still the responsibility of the writer. Jordan used to do as much as 8 to 10 drafts before he sent the manuscript to Harriet. Brandon does 2. Editors exist to catch mistakes--typos, continuity errors, and so forth--and I agree, they need more time to do this--but the quality of the writing--the polish of the prose itself--is the sole responsibility of the writer.

 

Things like using more modern sounding language, using tempest excessively, using bloody ashes which has never been done before, etc. These types of things need to be caught by the editor. Making suggestions about not being so blunt with reveals (although this one doesn't really bother me personally). Suggesting that characters had previously not explained so much of things on page in their "thoughts". Yes, the author has ultimate responsibility. But editors aren't and shouldn't be just proofreaders. Let's not pretend that Team Jordan is blameless in some of these problems.

 

I don't think anyone is 'pretending that'--in fact Maria Simons and I have touched upon this in email, and she has stated as much, with the distinct undertone of frustration and embarressment. The editing team needs more time to do their jobs, and have not been given that time due to the demand for publication.

 

That being said, editors ARE proofreaders. Very capable, highly professional proofreaders... but that is the scope of their job. They are supposed to crosscheck the final draft of a book for mistakes. Lets not beat around the bush, they failed with TofM. That being said they were put in an impossible position. They had a stupidly small time to do their work. And they had been presented with a product that wasn't ready for publication by the author.

 

Both issues need to be addressed.

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The editing team needs more time to do their jobs, and have not been given that time due to the demand for publication.

 

That's very true. Why didn't someone slow down the process before now? Was it a matter of Brandon wanting to get through this and get back to his own books? My guess is that they caved to the desires of their great, but pushy and vocal, fanbase. Maybe they now feel more secure in delaying it a little since Brandon has mostly been accepted by the fans and there seems to be a general consensous that we are willing and want to wait a little bit for the highest quality product we can get.

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The thing is I feel that some of the editors probably are not as knowledgable of the series say as someone like Lurkers (I dont know he might proofread it). While they might be better at proofreading, a lot of the proofreading in something like this, is checking facts. Obviously there are going to be errors, but when someone like me who while, I am fairly knowledgable about WoT and grammer, certainly not professional quality, I don't think that I should be finding a bunch of either gramatical errors or factual errors. Anyway, my point is there should be more people like him reading it. These people mostly reading for fact checking, because there always are, but they can still find some of the basic grammer errors. Anyway, I sure as hell wont notice some extremely minor gramatical errors, unless I'm looking for them, and am willing to spend the time to do it. The more people the better, it really bothers me when there are stupid mistakes that should have been caught by the editors. Who cares about grammar, if its not perfect, I wont notice, my grammar isnt perfect either. Facts are easy to fix, but only if the reader is deeply immersed in the story. Otherwise it just takes time.

Edited by lordofsoup

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The thing is I feel that some of the editors probably are not as knowledgable of the series say as someone like Lurkers (I dont know he might proofread it). While they might be better at proofreading, a lot of the proofreading in something like this, is checking facts. Obviously there are going to be errors, but when someone like me who while, I am fairly knowledgable about WoT and grammer, certainly not professional quality, I don't think that I should be finding a bunch of either gramatical errors or factual errors. Anyway, my point is there should be more people like him reading it. These people mostly reading for fact checking, because there always are, but they can still find some of the basic grammer errors. Anyway, I sure as hell wont notice some extremely minor gramatical errors, unless I'm looking for them, and am willing to spend the time to do it. The more people the better, it really bothers me when there are stupid mistakes that should have been caught by the editors. Who cares about grammar, if its not perfect, I wont notice, my grammar isnt perfect either. Facts are easy to fix, but only if the reader is deeply immersed in the story. Otherwise it just takes time.

 

The editors of the book are RJ's wife (who also edited all the previous books) and his two long time assistants Maria and Alan. So I don't think it's a problem of them not being familiar with the material. That said, it's certainly not a bad idea to have knowledgable beta readers like Luckers, Jason, or Matt from Theoryland read the book and make suggestions. In fact, I think they might actually do this.

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There is a rather large difference between a beta reader and an Editor. Further while part of an editor's duty is proofreading for grammatical and factual errors a good editor also will make "recommendations" about substance. This is especially true in the instant case where Harriet is not only the editor but also legal owner of WOT. That being said I believe that some of the "deficiencies" in the first two post RJ books has more to do that Sanderson is nor does he pretend to be RJ. There will be differences in style and how certain characters are dealt with no matter the time taking on rewrites and editing. What we can hope for deserve is that more time is given by Sanderson in polishing and the editors in fixing obvious errors.

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