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Dreggs Morlock

Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

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I go with Perrin being better. I agree that they have similar skills, but the fact that Egwene uses channeling to make fire, while Perrin makes fire, it gives him an advantage. Egwene's first instinct is to channel to make fire, because she is a Channeler in the Real world. Perrin does not have this same inhibition, making him stronger in the Dream. I don't know what advantages or disadvantages the wolf would give him, so I am not even going to go there.

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Do you honestly think now that Egwene has used her 'I am Amyrlin and 3000 years old, the rep of all there is' willpower that she'll just forget about it.

 

I think not, Egwene just got a whole lot stronger in TAR and she will research/practice and use it to the best of her ability in the future. Recallthat in TSR, when she was fumbling her way through but still managed to change Amy's clad state to nakedness that Amys was floored by it. Egwene also said that she had to draw on the Power to do it.

 

I think we are going to see some amazing feats by Egwene using a combination of both willpower and Power (at least drawing heavily on it whilst willing something to become reality) in the future.

 

Obviously this is my line of thinking too. But the Perrin side seem to jump on the "Rusty" to mean she's somehow permanently damaged. But I think the comment was about her being rusty when she confronted Perrin and through most of that scene. The end shows the rust breaking off. She has her realization that she's been fighting quite stupidly.

 

The idea of channeling as some permanent handicap is ridiculous. As if she couldn't learn to integrate both together to give her a greater edge. I mean most of you seem to hate how much and fast she can learn, but all of a sudden she can't learn that?

 

And if you maintain that she's rusty, you must then admit that she USED to be better than Perrin is currently. The notion of being rusty means she used to be better than she is now. And do not say "well perrin wasn't as good back then" because the point of the quote was that she didn't manage to hold him because she was rusty, thus, she would have been able to restrain Perrin had she not been rusty (meaning the way she was before she got rusty).

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"The idea of channeling as some permanent handicap is ridiculous. As if she couldn't learn to integrate both together to give her a greater edge. I mean most of you seem to hate how much and fast she can learn, but all of a sudden she can't learn that?"

 

It certainly is, without any question. That should be self evident. Think on it.

 

This is not only applies to your precious Egwene, but every channeler.

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How do you explain all the clues that Moghedien and Lanfear were the best in TAR during the Age of Legends? Keep in mind that back then they had ter'angreal who allowed access to TAR to non-channellers without Dreamwalking talent.

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If TAR is all about belief and Perrin is firm in his belief that TAR/the Wolfdream is his domain doesn't that make him a pretty tough foe there?

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I say that they both have there advantages,but if she could learn to use the effects of channeling than in fact channeling its self she would over come. I mean instinctivly being able to channel with out channeling its self.Kind along the lines of the way Rand was during his battles in TAR its self. Where he would change everything over to over come what ever was being throw at him, and that was all based on instint.

 

 

Now Perrin on the other hand, if he could figure out that when he is in fact in the dream, that he should be able to channel. The way i see it is that if the dream is all based on thought and instinct then if think about it hard enough, you should come to the conclusion that you could channel with out having to be able to infact channel in the real world. So if he could figure that out,if it is possible, then i think he would beat the snot out of her. all based on instinct.

Edited by he who comes with a bong

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"The idea of channeling as some permanent handicap is ridiculous. As if she couldn't learn to integrate both together to give her a greater edge. I mean most of you seem to hate how much and fast she can learn, but all of a sudden she can't learn that?"

 

It certainly is, without any question. That should be self evident. Think on it.

 

This is not only applies to your precious Egwene, but every channeler.

 

That's like saying, "She knows how to walk, so she'll never be able to figure out how to run." or "She can play Piano, so she'll never be able to learn the Guitar."

Ludicrous.

 

Yes, one skill may create bad habits when learning other skills, but they can easily be overcome with training. The idea she's permanently handicapped because of another skill is pure foolishness. And "rusty" means she had, at one point, already overcome them. So you can't even argue she can't, because she already has! That's what "rusty" means.

 

If TAR is all about belief and Perrin is firm in his belief that TAR/the Wolfdream is his domain doesn't that make him a pretty tough foe there?

 

Sure it can make him "a pretty tough foe" and does. It doesn't, however, make him better than Egwene.

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How do you explain all the clues that Moghedien and Lanfear were the best in TAR during the Age of Legends? Keep in mind that back then they had ter'angreal who allowed access to TAR to non-channellers without Dreamwalking talent.

 

Indeed, if channeling was a handicap that would not have been the case...

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Guest PiotrekS

We don't know if those ter'angreal were widely used among non-chennelers. I'm not sure if we read that Lanfear and Moghedien were absolutely the best among all the dreamwalkers in AoL, or if they were the best among the Aes Sedai, or even the best among the Forsaken. I don't have my books with me so I can't check it now.

 

Even so, of course channeling itself will not be a handicap. On the other hand, an intinctive tendency to respond to danger by channeling is dangerous in TAR, because it is both slower and less powerful that mind control over TAR. Such instinct could be controlled or eliminated with careful training and as we know, Lanfer and Moghedien probably had hundreds of years of experience in TAR. It was Egwene's instinct to turn to channeling in some situations and she will need time and training to overcome that, as any other habit that is not beneficial in certain circumstances.

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We don't know if those ter'angreal were widely used among non-chennelers. I'm not sure if we read that Lanfear and Moghedien were absolutely the best among all the dreamwalkers in AoL, or if they were the best among the Aes Sedai, or even the best among the Forsaken. I don't have my books with me so I can't check it now.

 

Lanfear claimed to be the best, hence calling herself Daughter of the Night. She claimed "Tel'aran'rhiod—and other people's dreams as her domain"

 

BWB

While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

If there were people who could have challenged her, surely they would have done something to stop this or at least fight back.

 

Moghedien was the best of the Forsaken at the very least, and likely up with the greatest from the AoL...

 

BWB

Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel'aran'rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear's, despite the latter's claim of sovereignty.

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Guest PiotrekS

We don't know if those ter'angreal were widely used among non-chennelers. I'm not sure if we read that Lanfear and Moghedien were absolutely the best among all the dreamwalkers in AoL, or if they were the best among the Aes Sedai, or even the best among the Forsaken. I don't have my books with me so I can't check it now.

 

Lanfear claimed to be the best, hence calling herself Daughter of the Night. She claimed "Tel'aran'rhiod—and other people's dreams as her domain"

 

BWB

While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

If there were people who could have challenged her, surely they would have done something to stop this or at least fight back.

 

Moghedien was the best of the Forsaken at the very least, and likely up with the greatest from the AoL...

 

BWB

Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel'aran'rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear's, despite the latter's claim of sovereignty.

 

Thank you. It seems to me the quotes show they were very good and not necessarily that there was absolutely nobody better. We don't know if some of Lanfear's attempts in TAR were not foiled. If hers and Moghedien's supremacy in TAR was absolute, wouldn't they have been able to decide the war, for example by killing LTT and Latra Posae etc.?

 

In one of last scenes of ToM, when Cyndane appears in Rand's dream, he is very surprised. His LTT memories tell him that in his own dreams he is absolutely safe, warded against any danger. So it seems that despite her claims, Lanfear was not in fact able to break through LTT's wards during the War of the Shadow, because in other case he would know it was possible and have some pretty horrific memories too. I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have done it if she could, considering her obsession about LTT.

 

The way Moghedien was defeated in TAR was definitely too easy for a master of the World of Dreams. Either their prowess was exaggerated, or it is another instance of the Forsaken being dumped down mercilessly by RJ to allow our heroes to triumph.

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Egwene and Perrin each have their own strengths in the world of dreams. You can't just compare them. One was taught by wolves, one was taught by humans.

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I totally agree with you on the score thing. But what are your reasons for thinking Perrin is better? Is it a gut feeling? We seem to be going in circles now, but meh, other threads are dull.

 

I gave some reasons why I think Perrin would have the edge here:

 

The reason I think Perrin is good in TAR is because he has been trained specifically with fighting in mind, which you'll notice is not the case for Egwene, her training being more general. Furthemore while is style is mostly physical (he has gotten creative at times), it's also instinctive and doesn't have the drawback of channelling (which in TAR is very much a drawback). Perrin's training was also focused on his mastery of himself, which is why I think people would have a hard time manipulating him and his image of himself in TAR, particularly now that he's completely at peace. The wolf style seems to be based on speed and consistently keeping your foe off balance. Perrin also has the advantage of having his wolf senses (sight, hearing, smell).

 

Whose potential is greatest, I don't think can be determined yet, nor can it be determined conclusively which style is best, as neither have actually been opposed at any point in the series. However I would say that at the moment Perrin has the advantage, due to his intensive training, the fact that his training has been focused purely on fighting, and Egwene having gotten somewhat rusty because of having to focuse on other things.

 

Overall, I get the impression that Perrin is just plain too fast. I re-read his fight with Slayer, and at the beginning the way they fight is incredibly instinctive and fluid. It comes off as perfectly in-tune with the dream, and completely natural. The speed at which they react is far faster than I've read with Egwene. To be honest, the only way I can see Egwene beating either of them, for now, is by making them fall into a trap, to outhink them. And the last time she tried to outhink someone (Mesaana), it got her into an Adam. She got out of that of course, but the point is Mesaana could have ended it then. So to me Egwene has to work on her planning skills in TAR.

 

 

I've got Egwene blowing up a Forsaken's freakin' mind... I mean that seems hard to trump.

 

About the blowing up of people's minds: the thing is that what truly caused Mesaana's mind to break, was not an intention by Egwene to break her mind, it was Mesaana trying to force Egwene to submit to her. Furthermore, in Egwene's eyes, Mesaana was trying to make the entire WT submit, and Egwene was defending that. It was a battle of wills and succeeded through her great will, yes, but also through her motivation to defend the WT, which is hardly something that Perrin would be trying to attack. So even if it came to a battle of wills, which is not likely to happen considering it's not Perrin's way of fighting at all, Egwene would not have the same motivation as she did against Mesaana. It's not like Egwene can just make people's minds break at will.

 

Egwene has spent more time training overall, despite being "rusty" which I argue is already gone since she realized she coudl blow up people's minds!

 

She's spent more time training overall, but it was never purely about fighting in TAR.

 

Speaking of actual dreamwalking and Slayer's likely inability in that area, could Egwene pull, or lure, anyone into her own dream and have full control of everything, similar to what Ishy used to do back in the day? Suppose you could argue that's no longer TAR, and technically beyond the scope of this thread.

 

I don't recall Ishamael pulling people into his dream intentionally. I think you can pull someone out of their dreams, and into TAR. Either way neither of them are strictly to do with fighting in TAR. There is no indication that Perrin or Slayer can even access the dreams of others, as far as I remember.

 

Obviously this is my line of thinking too. But the Perrin side seem to jump on the "Rusty" to mean she's somehow permanently damaged. But I think the comment was about her being rusty when she confronted Perrin and through most of that scene. The end shows the rust breaking off. She has her realization that she's been fighting quite stupidly.

 

Realizing isn't enough though. Some guy may realize that he's been shooting the basketball all along, but that doesn't mean he's suddenly going to overcome his instincts to shoot it that way, and be perfect. Overcoming that takes time and work, and Egwene being rusty doesn't mean she was perfect before that. It just means she was better, that she wasn't so quick to use weaves.

 

The idea of channeling as some permanent handicap is ridiculous. As if she couldn't learn to integrate both together to give her a greater edge. I mean most of you seem to hate how much and fast she can learn, but all of a sudden she can't learn that?

 

It's not a permanent handicap. In fact it might even be better in certain situations. However, thoughts are still stronger in TAR. Of course she can learn to use thoughts first instead of weaves, but it'll take time. Instincts don't change that quickly.

 

And if you maintain that she's rusty, you must then admit that she USED to be better than Perrin is currently. The notion of being rusty means she used to be better than she is now. And do not say "well perrin wasn't as good back then" because the point of the quote was that she didn't manage to hold him because she was rusty, thus, she would have been able to restrain Perrin had she not been rusty (meaning the way she was before she got rusty).

 

Her being rusty doesn't mean she was perfect before. Afterall, it's not like there was an official completion of her training. She just had to return to the Aes Sedai. And it hardly means she was better than Perrin is. She tried to restrain him with both channeling and thoughts and neither worked. If her being rusty means she was relying too much on her channeling and not enough on her thoughts, then, considering she tried both, she would have succeeded no better in the past than she did here (that said she probably underestimated Perrin in the first place, so it's possible, and even probable, that she didn't use her full strength to restrain him, at least the second time). You seem to be saying that, as we shouldn't assume that Perrin is better than Egewene, based on a scene where she isn't looking her best, we should assume that Egwene is actually better. Well, being better than Egwene was there wouldn't be all that difficult really. In her own words, she looked like a novice.

 

How do you explain all the clues that Moghedien and Lanfear were the best in TAR during the Age of Legends? Keep in mind that back then they had ter'angreal who allowed access to TAR to non-channellers without Dreamwalking talent.

 

There's a big difference between Moghedien, Lanfear, and Egwene. Moghedien and Lanfear are both a few centuries old, whereas Egwene is like 19, and has only started to dreamwalk for about a year. Moghedien and Lanfear would have been able to, with time, overcome their instincts to channel. I don't believe Egwene has yet.

 

Indeed, if channeling was a handicap that would not have been the case...

 

Except that Moghedien and Lanfear are both a few centuries old, and Egwene is only 19.

Edited by Master Ablar

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Messy and the BA couldn't escape the dreamspike, the WO's couldn't also.

Perrin and Hopper could, isn't that as good as we are going to get as a measured comparison to who is the strongest out of those groups.

I know Egwene didn't try to escape but the WO's did and if it has been acknowlaged that the pupil has surpassed the teachers it must of passed me by.

Edited by damandred

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How do you explain all the clues that Moghedien and Lanfear were the best in TAR during the Age of Legends? Keep in mind that back then they had ter'angreal who allowed access to TAR to non-channellers without Dreamwalking talent.

 

There's a big difference between Moghedien, Lanfear, and Egwene. Moghedien and Lanfear are both a few centuries old, whereas Egwene is like 19, and has only started to dreamwalk for about a year. Moghedien and Lanfear would have been able to, with time, overcome their instincts to channel. I don't believe Egwene has yet.

 

Indeed, if channeling was a handicap that would not have been the case...

 

Except that Moghedien and Lanfear are both a few centuries old, and Egwene is only 19.

 

That's not the point Master, we were responding to Entreri's post saying it would be a permanent handicap to all channelers. That is most clearly false.

Edited by Suttree

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How do you explain all the clues that Moghedien and Lanfear were the best in TAR during the Age of Legends? Keep in mind that back then they had ter'angreal who allowed access to TAR to non-channellers without Dreamwalking talent.

 

There's a big difference between Moghedien, Lanfear, and Egwene. Moghedien and Lanfear are both a few centuries old, whereas Egwene is like 19, and has only started to dreamwalk for about a year. Moghedien and Lanfear would have been able to, with time, overcome their instincts to channel. I don't believe Egwene has yet.

 

Indeed, if channeling was a handicap that would not have been the case...

 

Except that Moghedien and Lanfear are both a few centuries old, and Egwene is only 19.

 

That's not the point Master, we were responding to Entreri's post saying it would be a permanent handicap to all channelers. That is most clearly false.

 

Sorry, I agree that it's not a permanent handicap, just one that must be overcome. I just thought that Kael's post further up seemed to be saying that she may have already overcome her instincts to channel.

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The details around that particular blowing up of a mind are irrelevant. Sure, that EXACT situation isn't going to come up again. But I could just as easily argue the EXACT sequence of fighting Perrin and Slayer did would never happen with Egwene and then try and claim that means Perrin is totally useless because we've only seen him in that PRECISE situation, but I'm not that silly. I can see that it's a technique that could be modified and applied in other situations.

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The details around that particular blowing up of a mind are irrelevant. Sure, that EXACT situation isn't going to come up again. But I could just as easily argue the EXACT sequence of fighting Perrin and Slayer did would never happen with Egwene and then try and claim that means Perrin is totally useless because we've only seen him in that PRECISE situation, but I'm not that silly. I can see that it's a technique that could be modified and applied in other situations.

 

But it's not a particular technique, it's just great willpower. If your opponent, whoever that is, doesn't try to overwhelm you and crush your will how can you defeat them and blow up their mind? There has to be a battle of wills. And that simply woudln't happen in a battle with Perrin, because that's not how he fights. On the other hand the way Perrin and Slayer fought was rather more diverse than blowing up someones mind. Which isn't even how Egwene fights in the first place anyway. Not to mention that Mesaana precisely wanted to force the Amyrlin, and through her the entire WT, to submit to her. I really can't see a situation where Perrin would try and do that.

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I think I've said elsewhere that Egwene's full potential probably exceeds Perrin's. I still think he is more advanced than Egwene RIGHT NOW precisely because of how agile he is. If we were to put Perrin in Mesaana's spot in that fight (or Slayer for that matter), Perrin would have punched her or zipped behind her or thought of her hair being yanked from behind or done something to make her concentration waver a moment. Slayer would likely have sent a dagger or arrow at her and used her momentary distraction to either kill her outright or escape. Egwene is very single minded, very narrow in her concept of tactics and attack. Perrin can't be, because Slayer isn't and because the wolves, Hopper in particular, wouldn't let him be that way. I'm not saying Egwene can't learn it. I'm saying she's not there right now, and it's illogical and a bit silly to assume she could learn it rapidly, given how little free time she has with which to pursue it and given she doesn't have someone with Perrin's way of thinking available to train her. The Wise Ones think more variedly than Egwene does in that respect and would be willing, so she could resume training with them and thus bypass not having a wolf or a wolf-trained person to help her, but the time limitation remains.

 

As to escaping the dreamspike, the reason Perrin and the wolves can is because they experimented around the edges of it and know its limitations. I imagine Aes Sedai (and the Wise Ones), given time to look around, would work out how to travel to the edge by shifting, step through the shell and then get away. They couldn't do that because they were under attack.

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"The idea of channeling as some permanent handicap is ridiculous. As if she couldn't learn to integrate both together to give her a greater edge. I mean most of you seem to hate how much and fast she can learn, but all of a sudden she can't learn that?"

 

It certainly is, without any question. That should be self evident. Think on it.

 

This is not only applies to your precious Egwene, but every channeler.

 

That's like saying, "She knows how to walk, so she'll never be able to figure out how to run." or "She can play Piano, so she'll never be able to learn the Guitar."

Ludicrous.

 

Yes, one skill may create bad habits when learning other skills, but they can easily be overcome with training. The idea she's permanently handicapped because of another skill is pure foolishness. And "rusty" means she had, at one point, already overcome them. So you can't even argue she can't, because she already has! That's what "rusty" means.

 

If TAR is all about belief and Perrin is firm in his belief that TAR/the Wolfdream is his domain doesn't that make him a pretty tough foe there?

 

Sure it can make him "a pretty tough foe" and does. It doesn't, however, make him better than Egwene.

 

 

Easily overcome with training? Unless she spends most of her time in TAR, that will never occur. Certainly she is handicapped because of her channeling abilities against an opponent like Isam or Perrin.

 

I don't think any channeler has overcome this handicap completely. Even the Forsaken have used channeling weaves in TAR.

 

It is akin to a right hand person using their left hand.

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Considering the strength that Egwene has in TAR is still nothing on par with someone who is there in the flesh like Perrin was. his strength would outdo her since just being there in the flesh grants increased strength 

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Perrin i stronger, becuase like mot the forsaken and such Egwene mostly relied on channeling in TAR.  She learned  some stuff but like so many she would channel.  Perrin understood a lot more about TAR.

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I don't think her spirit  is or the place would be packed with the spirts of  every dead person out there. I think only certain spirts such as the heroes of the horn are chilling there waiting to be reborn.  At least that' my understanding, just seems like if every dead person was in the dream world then you would of seen a lot  of  spirts there.

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