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Dreggs Morlock

Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

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Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

 

I think the author said in the same quote that she's a little rusty and she will be able to surpass(so at the moment she is at most his equal) Perrin if she'll train some more.

So, training required.

 

EDIT

@ YouMayCallMeElci

I wasn't talking about using nightmares in his fight with Slayer. I was talking about that chapter in which he jumps in nightmares to face the dangers inside, not just dispelling the whole thing as not real, as the wolves taught him at first, and how the rest of the Dreamwalkers and AS usually do.

Edited by Aiel Blademaster

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Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

 

I think the author said in the same quote that she's a little rusty and she will be able to surpass(so at the moment she is at most his equal) Perrin if she'll train some more.

So, training required.

 

EDIT

@ YouMayCallMeElci

I wasn't talking about using nightmares in his fight with Slayer. I was talking about that chapter in which he jumps in nightmares to face the dangers inside, not just dispelling the whole thing as not real, as the wolves taught him at first, and how the rest of the Dreamwalkers and AS usually do.

 

Brandon didn't say she would be able to surpass him (though it's quite possible she can). He did say she was rusty though.

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I don't see how the Egwene faction think they have a leg to stand on.

Egwene beat messy in TAR but that was a contest of wills in combat she was really quite amature, Bairs comment about her being obvious proved that.

While Perrin in contrast has had exstensive TAR combat training and has faced one of TAR's most deadly hunters. And for thoses who doubt Slayers TAR prowess let's look at the facts. He is one man with two souls both of which were princes. (I don't know why that's relevent but it would be too much of a coincidence to be just chance) He can enter TAR in the flesh which makes him stronger and seems to be the shadows main man in TAR, which says something considering they have lanny an moggy. He hunts wolves in TAR which are the most adept creatures there.

Perrin showed at the end of ToM that he is so confedant in TAR he tried to wash away the DO's corruption of it by himself, don't think eggy would try that.

 

But that is our point. Will trumps combat. No Eggs supporter thinks she'll fight like slayer did. More like, she'll just will Perrin to her location lock him down, and crush his mind too. Now you can quibble about whether she's that good yet or not, but fact of the matter is Perrin cannot and will never do anything nearly so badass.

 

Eggy's fighting style is precisely why she can't beat Slayer.

 

She can defeat forsaken because they fight like humans, and can get tied down by force of will. However, her skill in TAR is still surpassed by Bair, who commented on her predictability and lack of innovation. Despite being among the top 10 dream walkers of any humans in WOT, Bair and Egwene don't have anywhere close to the strength required to fight Slayer.

 

As someone's already claimed, Moghedien, the strongest dream walker in the series, was scared out of her pants by the prospect of getting between Rahvin and Rand's duel. Rahvin could be explained as an expert in TAR combat but Rand can not. Rand has no clue how to fight in TAR and was using instinct alone. His instinct couldn't have been very strong, as he's a man and no creature of TAR. If someone who has absolutely no clue how to fight in TAR will frighten it's most adept denizen by being there in the flesh, it undoubtedly affords them an advantage in strength that can't be outmatched by adroit manipulation of TAR. Being in TAR in the flesh is considered "something of the shadow" and we will most likely not see any light siders attempt to fight Slayer this way as they believe it will leave something of you permanently there.

 

Bela, Cenn Buie, and Raen could spank Egwene's bottom all day and night if they were in TAR in the flesh.

 

Slayer is a beast, a lion. Egwene's a human, she's one of the most adroit fighters. However, Slayer's beyond the skill of talented human martial artists. Perrin and the pack are shown to have the capacity to defeat him. With enough wolves, the pack can down even the lion.

 

I'm not exactly sure how Slayer is going to go down (I hope for a waking world battle between him and Lan, and perhaps the wolves can help if they go north to Tarwin's Gap to help him), but I'm almost absolutely certain that he will not be getting killed by a traditional dream walker in a duel.

 

Mohg specifically says she's scared because they were there in the flesh and could channel much more strongly. And then she was more scared when she found ut they were throwing balefire around willy nilly. And given mogh had forgotten she could just will the leash away, she was clearly not in a clear thinking state. Oh, and mohg is a coward by nature. None of that fear had to do with TAR-ing.

 

And I have asked for proof that Slayer is a beast, no one has ever offered any. I get that you got that feeling when reading it. But Padan Fain shows some epic powers, slayer does not. This post goes right back to my previous post where you think slayer is good because he beats perrin, and you think Perrin is good because he almost beats slayer. Well guess what, they might both just suck.

 

What makes you think Egwene cannot lock down slayer? Or that Elayne or Nynaeve couldn't do it even? Because his name is cool?

 

Mogh was scared because they were there in the flesh. That makes them incredibly powerful, as is evidenced by Slayer, Rand, Rahvin, etc.

 

Nyn's weave (through Mogh) did jack to Rahvin. It's definitely not only Rahvin's channeling becoming stronger if a weave used by a Forsaken level channeler can be shrugged off.

 

Slayer is a "creature of TAR." He doesn't have to be a literal lion. Egwene can't lock down Slayer. Egwene used her "tower is my power" trick when she saw Perrin's "I own this place" trick. That trick obviously does not work on Slayer because his willpower is incredible compared to Egwene's/Perrin's since he's there in the flesh. If Egwene could use something she learned from Perrin to beat Slayer, why wouldn't Perrin have done it?

 

The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

All the skill Egwene has goes for nothing because dreaming humans are as weak as children compared to Slayer. The entire "I win" ego trick also won't work if an arrow is sticking out of your gut. Slayer would decimate any number of humans in the dream. Perrin didn't "beat" Slayer, he achieved the objective. This is a victory, but the loss was great. He lost many wolves, which are definitely stronger than the average dream walker, in his campaign against Slayer.

 

Like I've said before, Egwene and even her WO teachers don't track nearly as fast/well as Slayer. It's also very difficult to use willpower to redirect an arrow if it kills you before you know it's there. Perrin didn't stand a chance against Slayer when he was willing things away to land an arrow on him.

 

It may be unwise to assume Perrin is stronger than Egwene, but it's ridiculous to assume that Egwene was so much stronger than Perrin that she'd stand a chance against Slayer in a willpower to willpower fight.

Edited by cookiecrisp

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Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

 

I think the author said in the same quote that she's a little rusty and she will be able to surpass(so at the moment she is at most his equal) Perrin if she'll train some more.

So, training required.

 

EDIT

@ YouMayCallMeElci

I wasn't talking about using nightmares in his fight with Slayer. I was talking about that chapter in which he jumps in nightmares to face the dangers inside, not just dispelling the whole thing as not real, as the wolves taught him at first, and how the rest of the Dreamwalkers and AS usually do.

 

But if you "face" the dangers, you get sucked in and it becomes real to you. Hopper had to save Perrin from the nightmares at first because of this. By the time his training was done, he perhaps had finer control than the Wise Ones because while he let the nightmare "live", he had a kind of bubble of reality around him (paving stones under his feet).

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Egwene vs. Perrin in TAR. Who would win?! Really, who cares!?!

If it is cross-country battle like some CS, i'd bet on Perrin. If it is just battle of wills and minds, it'd be Egwene. I think she would defeat even Rand if he was not ta'veren. At least she is able to stand and talk while everybody else just gazes speechless. All of these are stubborn, but Egwene leads at that point.

And I hope I never see my two favourite characters (Perrin and Egwene) fight against each other.

But Egwene+Perrin TAR team fight against decent rivals is something that would give me a reading orgasm!

 

Rand's willpower >> Egwene. With LTT's knowledge of TAR, Rand will win such a fight.

 

While Egwene had to overcome a lot (likely #3 in willpower after Cadsuane and Soriela among the Light side females), NOTHING compared to the DR.

 

It is doubtful that LTT had to overcome that much adversity in such a brief time. Aviehnda: "He is the Car'a'carn as strong as the Three-fold land itself". Where any others possibly beside Lan would scream in pain and cry like a child (Semirhage's torture via a'dam), he ignored. Willpower among the males, Rand is either #1 or #2 (Lan).

 

 

 

 

Slayer will go for the KILL SHOT. I think even before Rand or Egwene could think of a strategy, they would end up dead.

 

Perrin know's how the Slayer operates, so he will be ready. However, I think Perrin will need to go in person to TAR in order to battle the Slayer. The Slayer is just too strong.

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The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

Rhavin was willing Rand to transform into an animal that couldn't channel at the end of their battle. Rand was thinking that he had one last chance to Balefire Rhavin but couldn't see him in the colonnades above. Luckily for Rand, Nynaeve's futile weave of fire around Rhavin made him step into the open so that Rand could finish him off. If not for Nynaeve, Rand would have been turned into whatever Rhavin envisioned and would have been killed or carted off to Shayol Ghul.

 

So, when you say that Rhavin couldn't beat uneducated Rand with willpower, I think the text proves you wrong.

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Just finished reading ToM all I have to say is Perrin stopped Balefire....

Just saying, oh and he bested Slayer in a nightmare which most others from Tel'aran'rhiod completely avoid..

V/R

S

 

I remember from one of the books re: Egwene's apprenticeship that the Wise Ones take care of any nightmares they come across. Egwene passed that on to Nynaeve and Elayne which is why they knew how to help Sheriam and co. when they got sucked into a nightmare in Salidar. I think it was set up by Moghedian before Nynaeve captured her.

 

 

Yes, but they do it differently. The WO and Egwene try to close the nightmare completely, usually from outside, and stay away from the stronger ones.

And how Elayne+AS managed to escape: they tried to imagine that the nightmare is not real. So they escaped the Trollocs by thinking they were not there.

How Perrin is doing it is totally different. He seeks out a nightmare and faces the threat, not try to run from it. So, if he enters a cave full of Trollocs, he does not run, he just creates a hammer/axe and doesn't stop until there are no more live Trollocs.

Dealing with nightmares, wolf style. I like his way.

 

... doesn't this prove exactly the opposite of what you suggest? Perrin "faces it", while Egwene just wills the entire nightmare away. Clearly the latter is the more "powerful". Just because you think the former is cooler doesn't make it better.

 

I mean pistol sharp shooting is cool, but if you just snipe him from a mile away with some high-tech scope, it's obviously less impressive, but certainly more effective and efficient.

 

Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

By that logic, Perrin should be able to off Slayer by the end of tSR. Afterall he managed to stick an arrow in Slayer and make him flee TAR. But it obviously doesn't work that way. He succeeded once, it doesn't mean he'll succeed again or that he won't need training. Egwene managed to overcome her instincs after being put under great pressure and having what she would instinctively do (channel) made impossible by the adam. I fail to see how that suddenly means her instinct is no longer to channel, or that she won't need training to overcome it. It's the difference between theory and reality. She knows that thought is better than channelling in TAR, but despite that, her instinct is still to channel. You can't bypass training. Only Mat through his memories of previous generals, and Rand through LTT have excuses to bypass it.

 

She was focusing on channeling because she was rusty. What did you think the rusty referred to?

 

You're assuming she's still rusty and that it means she needs to train. Where as she has already realized her mistake, hence her change of tactics at the end. Thus the rust is gone, at least the crippling part of it. Will she make the mistake again? Perhaps, but you cannot assume that -- that would be "unwise".

 

Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

I think the author said in the same quote that she's a little rusty and she will be able to surpass(so at the moment she is at most his equal) Perrin if she'll train some more.

So, training required.

 

EDIT

@ YouMayCallMeElci

I wasn't talking about using nightmares in his fight with Slayer. I was talking about that chapter in which he jumps in nightmares to face the dangers inside, not just dispelling the whole thing as not real, as the wolves taught him at first, and how the rest of the Dreamwalkers and AS usually do.

 

Brandon didn't say she would be able to surpass him (though it's quite possible she can). He did say she was rusty though.

 

He also said it was unwise to assume Perrin is better, so why would you assume she's worse, that's exactly the same thing. It's unwise to say "it's quite possible she can" surpass him, because that means you're assuming she's worse, which is, in fact, unwise.

 

I don't see how the Egwene faction think they have a leg to stand on.

Egwene beat messy in TAR but that was a contest of wills in combat she was really quite amature, Bairs comment about her being obvious proved that.

While Perrin in contrast has had exstensive TAR combat training and has faced one of TAR's most deadly hunters. And for thoses who doubt Slayers TAR prowess let's look at the facts. He is one man with two souls both of which were princes. (I don't know why that's relevent but it would be too much of a coincidence to be just chance) He can enter TAR in the flesh which makes him stronger and seems to be the shadows main man in TAR, which says something considering they have lanny an moggy. He hunts wolves in TAR which are the most adept creatures there.

Perrin showed at the end of ToM that he is so confedant in TAR he tried to wash away the DO's corruption of it by himself, don't think eggy would try that.

 

But that is our point. Will trumps combat. No Eggs supporter thinks she'll fight like slayer did. More like, she'll just will Perrin to her location lock him down, and crush his mind too. Now you can quibble about whether she's that good yet or not, but fact of the matter is Perrin cannot and will never do anything nearly so badass.

 

Eggy's fighting style is precisely why she can't beat Slayer.

 

She can defeat forsaken because they fight like humans, and can get tied down by force of will. However, her skill in TAR is still surpassed by Bair, who commented on her predictability and lack of innovation. Despite being among the top 10 dream walkers of any humans in WOT, Bair and Egwene don't have anywhere close to the strength required to fight Slayer.

 

As someone's already claimed, Moghedien, the strongest dream walker in the series, was scared out of her pants by the prospect of getting between Rahvin and Rand's duel. Rahvin could be explained as an expert in TAR combat but Rand can not. Rand has no clue how to fight in TAR and was using instinct alone. His instinct couldn't have been very strong, as he's a man and no creature of TAR. If someone who has absolutely no clue how to fight in TAR will frighten it's most adept denizen by being there in the flesh, it undoubtedly affords them an advantage in strength that can't be outmatched by adroit manipulation of TAR. Being in TAR in the flesh is considered "something of the shadow" and we will most likely not see any light siders attempt to fight Slayer this way as they believe it will leave something of you permanently there.

 

Bela, Cenn Buie, and Raen could spank Egwene's bottom all day and night if they were in TAR in the flesh.

 

Slayer is a beast, a lion. Egwene's a human, she's one of the most adroit fighters. However, Slayer's beyond the skill of talented human martial artists. Perrin and the pack are shown to have the capacity to defeat him. With enough wolves, the pack can down even the lion.

 

I'm not exactly sure how Slayer is going to go down (I hope for a waking world battle between him and Lan, and perhaps the wolves can help if they go north to Tarwin's Gap to help him), but I'm almost absolutely certain that he will not be getting killed by a traditional dream walker in a duel.

 

Mohg specifically says she's scared because they were there in the flesh and could channel much more strongly. And then she was more scared when she found ut they were throwing balefire around willy nilly. And given mogh had forgotten she could just will the leash away, she was clearly not in a clear thinking state. Oh, and mohg is a coward by nature. None of that fear had to do with TAR-ing.

 

And I have asked for proof that Slayer is a beast, no one has ever offered any. I get that you got that feeling when reading it. But Padan Fain shows some epic powers, slayer does not. This post goes right back to my previous post where you think slayer is good because he beats perrin, and you think Perrin is good because he almost beats slayer. Well guess what, they might both just suck.

 

What makes you think Egwene cannot lock down slayer? Or that Elayne or Nynaeve couldn't do it even? Because his name is cool?

 

Mogh was scared because they were there in the flesh. That makes them incredibly powerful, as is evidenced by Slayer, Rand, Rahvin, etc.

 

Nyn's weave (through Mogh) did jack to Rahvin. It's definitely not only Rahvin's channeling becoming stronger if a weave used by a Forsaken level channeler can be shrugged off.

 

Slayer is a "creature of TAR." He doesn't have to be a literal lion. Egwene can't lock down Slayer. Egwene used her "tower is my power" trick when she saw Perrin's "I own this place" trick. That trick obviously does not work on Slayer because his willpower is incredible compared to Egwene's/Perrin's since he's there in the flesh. If Egwene could use something she learned from Perrin to beat Slayer, why wouldn't Perrin have done it?

 

The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

All the skill Egwene has goes for nothing because dreaming humans are as weak as children compared to Slayer. The entire "I win" ego trick also won't work if an arrow is sticking out of your gut. Slayer would decimate any number of humans in the dream. Perrin didn't "beat" Slayer, he achieved the objective. This is a victory, but the loss was great. He lost many wolves, which are definitely stronger than the average dream walker, in his campaign against Slayer.

 

Like I've said before, Egwene and even her WO teachers don't track nearly as fast/well as Slayer. It's also very difficult to use willpower to redirect an arrow if it kills you before you know it's there. Perrin didn't stand a chance against Slayer when he was willing things away to land an arrow on him.

 

It may be unwise to assume Perrin is stronger than Egwene, but it's ridiculous to assume that Egwene was so much stronger than Perrin that she'd stand a chance against Slayer in a willpower to willpower fight.

 

First, Mogh delt with Birgitte's arrows until shot by surprise just like Slayer. And we know for fact she's not some TAR goddess by how she crumples to the a'dam. So I don't see where you're going with that. I've consistently maintained that Perrin is like a TAR fighter, and Egwene is like a TAR channeler. Just like in the real world, a fighter can ABSOLUTELY kill a channeler by surprise or with some luck. But If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the channeler every time.

 

Where's the evidence Slayer has any special willpower? We know channeling is more powerful in the flesh, but not willpower. Note that when Nynaeve uses the crappy ter'angreal she can barely make a flame dance with the OP, but she never says anything about being unable to train with Elayne to the same caliber while she used the stone ring. Also, why would Mohg sleep while some Chosen enter in the flesh? She should be worried about being out-TARed by them if it were the case. Instead, she's only worried once she's leashed, and it's all about their channeling.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to post the parts I've obviously missed that makes you all think he's the Machin Shin of TAR.

 

The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

Rhavin was willing Rand to transform into an animal that couldn't channel at the end of their battle. Rand was thinking that he had one last chance to Balefire Rhavin but couldn't see him in the colonnades above. Luckily for Rand, Nynaeve's futile weave of fire around Rhavin made him step into the open so that Rand could finish him off. If not for Nynaeve, Rand would have been turned into whatever Rhavin envisioned and would have been killed or carted off to Shayol Ghul.

 

So, when you say that Rhavin couldn't beat uneducated Rand with willpower, I think the text proves you wrong.

 

Exactly right.

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Just finished reading ToM all I have to say is Perrin stopped Balefire....

Just saying, oh and he bested Slayer in a nightmare which most others from Tel'aran'rhiod completely avoid..

V/R

S

 

I remember from one of the books re: Egwene's apprenticeship that the Wise Ones take care of any nightmares they come across. Egwene passed that on to Nynaeve and Elayne which is why they knew how to help Sheriam and co. when they got sucked into a nightmare in Salidar. I think it was set up by Moghedian before Nynaeve captured her.

 

 

Yes, but they do it differently. The WO and Egwene try to close the nightmare completely, usually from outside, and stay away from the stronger ones.

And how Elayne+AS managed to escape: they tried to imagine that the nightmare is not real. So they escaped the Trollocs by thinking they were not there.

How Perrin is doing it is totally different. He seeks out a nightmare and faces the threat, not try to run from it. So, if he enters a cave full of Trollocs, he does not run, he just creates a hammer/axe and doesn't stop until there are no more live Trollocs.

Dealing with nightmares, wolf style. I like his way.

 

... doesn't this prove exactly the opposite of what you suggest? Perrin "faces it", while Egwene just wills the entire nightmare away. Clearly the latter is the more "powerful". Just because you think the former is cooler doesn't make it better.

 

I mean pistol sharp shooting is cool, but if you just snipe him from a mile away with some high-tech scope, it's obviously less impressive, but certainly more effective and efficient.

 

I think the main difference is that one way, the Wise Ones way, is completely safe, and therefore much smarter. However, what Hopper was having Perrin do, was jump into nightmares to close them, putting himself in direct danger. When you're in direct danger it's obviously going to be far more difficult, which is why it's very good, albeit very dangerous, training.

 

Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

By that logic, Perrin should be able to off Slayer by the end of tSR. Afterall he managed to stick an arrow in Slayer and make him flee TAR. But it obviously doesn't work that way. He succeeded once, it doesn't mean he'll succeed again or that he won't need training. Egwene managed to overcome her instincs after being put under great pressure and having what she would instinctively do (channel) made impossible by the adam. I fail to see how that suddenly means her instinct is no longer to channel, or that she won't need training to overcome it. It's the difference between theory and reality. She knows that thought is better than channelling in TAR, but despite that, her instinct is still to channel. You can't bypass training. Only Mat through his memories of previous generals, and Rand through LTT have excuses to bypass it.

 

She was focusing on channeling because she was rusty. What did you think the rusty referred to?

 

You're assuming she's still rusty and that it means she needs to train. Where as she has already realized her mistake, hence her change of tactics at the end. Thus the rust is gone, at least the crippling part of it. Will she make the mistake again? Perhaps, but you cannot assume that -- that would be "unwise".

 

You're throwing around the "unwise" reference way too easely. What Brandon said is that it was unwise to assume that Perrin was better than Egwene in the Dream based solely on their short confrontation. Well, first of all I'm not assuming, I'm giving a perfectly plausible and justified explanation of why I think that Egwene probably hasn't regained her top shape in Dreamwalking, and therefore, I am, by definition, not assuming. Also this has nothing to do with Perrin and Egwene's confrontation. In fact it has nothing to do with Perrin, period. Therefore, Brandon's statement is completely out of place here.

 

"Rusty" refers to Egwene's current Dreamwalking abilities. She hadn't utilized them in quite some time since her initial training (a training that was very general compared to Perrin's that was purely battle oriented, which is something that I think definitely has an importance), and therefore she was "out of shape". Well you don't get back into shape that easely, even for someone as talented as Egwene obviously is. And I believe that Egwene has a permanent disadvantage, compared to non-channellers such as Bair or Perrin, due to her ability to channel, because it means she must balance her instincts between channelling and thought.

 

Again, Author said it is unwise to assume Perrin is better than Egwene based on that battle, you are both being unwise. Egwene already realized she was being silly by the end. No training required.

 

I think the author said in the same quote that she's a little rusty and she will be able to surpass(so at the moment she is at most his equal) Perrin if she'll train some more.

So, training required.

 

EDIT

@ YouMayCallMeElci

I wasn't talking about using nightmares in his fight with Slayer. I was talking about that chapter in which he jumps in nightmares to face the dangers inside, not just dispelling the whole thing as not real, as the wolves taught him at first, and how the rest of the Dreamwalkers and AS usually do.

 

Brandon didn't say she would be able to surpass him (though it's quite possible she can). He did say she was rusty though.

 

He also said it was unwise to assume Perrin is better, so why would you assume she's worse, that's exactly the same thing. It's unwise to say "it's quite possible she can" surpass him, because that means you're assuming she's worse, which is, in fact, unwise.

 

Again you're throwing around the "unwise" too easely. Brandon said it was unwise to assume that Perrin is better than Egwene based solely on that confrontation. I wrote a post myself just a page or two back where I said that it wouldn't be right to come to definite conclusions based simply on one confrontation or performance (it was in regards to Egwene vs Mesaana, but it works just as well for Perrin and Egwene's confrontation), similarly to how you can't judge a promising new talent based off his first game, whether that first game is great, or terrible. At no point have I claimed that Perrin was better just on the basis that Egwene was left stunned at Perrin's actions in their meeting. I certainly didn't here:

 

 

It has already been shown in the series that channellers of the current Age have managed things which the AoLers thought impossible. Just because the Forsaken fight a certain way in TAR does not mean it is the most effective. And we have yet to see how Moghedien and Lanfear fight in TAR, as they are afterall the best Forsaken in TAR. Then again I can't see them fighting in Slayer's style.

 

The reason I think Perrin is good in TAR is because he has been trained specifically with fighting in mind, which you'll notice is not the case for Egwene, her training being more general. Furthemore while is style is mostly physical (he has gotten creative at times), it's also instinctive and doesn't have the drawback of channelling (which in TAR is very much a drawback). Perrin's training was also focused on his mastery of himself, which is why I think people would have a hard time manipulating him and his image of himself in TAR, particularly now that he's completely at peace. The wolf style seems to be based on speed and consistently keeping your foe off balance. Perrin also has the advantage of having his wolf senses (sight, hearing, smell).

 

Whose potential is greatest, I don't think can be determined yet, nor can it be determined conclusively which style is best, as neither have actually been opposed at any point in the series. However I would say that at the moment Perrin has the advantage, due to his intensive training, the fact that his training has been focused purely on fighting, and Egwene having gotten somewhat rusty because of having to focuse on other things.

 

As you can see, no assuming, only solid, justified reasons, none of which are that Perrin befuddled Egwene in their confrontation. On the other hand, I have to admit I was unintentionally misleading when I said that: "Brandon didn't say she would be able to surpass him (though it's quite possible she can)", which obviously makes it sound like Perrin is better. I should have written that Brandon never said one was better than the other, but that if Perrin is better, Egwene could possibly surpass him, as we don't know who has the greatest potential. Sorry for not being clear.

 

I don't see how the Egwene faction think they have a leg to stand on.

Egwene beat messy in TAR but that was a contest of wills in combat she was really quite amature, Bairs comment about her being obvious proved that.

While Perrin in contrast has had exstensive TAR combat training and has faced one of TAR's most deadly hunters. And for thoses who doubt Slayers TAR prowess let's look at the facts. He is one man with two souls both of which were princes. (I don't know why that's relevent but it would be too much of a coincidence to be just chance) He can enter TAR in the flesh which makes him stronger and seems to be the shadows main man in TAR, which says something considering they have lanny an moggy. He hunts wolves in TAR which are the most adept creatures there.

Perrin showed at the end of ToM that he is so confedant in TAR he tried to wash away the DO's corruption of it by himself, don't think eggy would try that.

 

But that is our point. Will trumps combat. No Eggs supporter thinks she'll fight like slayer did. More like, she'll just will Perrin to her location lock him down, and crush his mind too. Now you can quibble about whether she's that good yet or not, but fact of the matter is Perrin cannot and will never do anything nearly so badass.

 

Eggy's fighting style is precisely why she can't beat Slayer.

 

She can defeat forsaken because they fight like humans, and can get tied down by force of will. However, her skill in TAR is still surpassed by Bair, who commented on her predictability and lack of innovation. Despite being among the top 10 dream walkers of any humans in WOT, Bair and Egwene don't have anywhere close to the strength required to fight Slayer.

 

As someone's already claimed, Moghedien, the strongest dream walker in the series, was scared out of her pants by the prospect of getting between Rahvin and Rand's duel. Rahvin could be explained as an expert in TAR combat but Rand can not. Rand has no clue how to fight in TAR and was using instinct alone. His instinct couldn't have been very strong, as he's a man and no creature of TAR. If someone who has absolutely no clue how to fight in TAR will frighten it's most adept denizen by being there in the flesh, it undoubtedly affords them an advantage in strength that can't be outmatched by adroit manipulation of TAR. Being in TAR in the flesh is considered "something of the shadow" and we will most likely not see any light siders attempt to fight Slayer this way as they believe it will leave something of you permanently there.

 

Bela, Cenn Buie, and Raen could spank Egwene's bottom all day and night if they were in TAR in the flesh.

 

Slayer is a beast, a lion. Egwene's a human, she's one of the most adroit fighters. However, Slayer's beyond the skill of talented human martial artists. Perrin and the pack are shown to have the capacity to defeat him. With enough wolves, the pack can down even the lion.

 

I'm not exactly sure how Slayer is going to go down (I hope for a waking world battle between him and Lan, and perhaps the wolves can help if they go north to Tarwin's Gap to help him), but I'm almost absolutely certain that he will not be getting killed by a traditional dream walker in a duel.

 

Mohg specifically says she's scared because they were there in the flesh and could channel much more strongly. And then she was more scared when she found ut they were throwing balefire around willy nilly. And given mogh had forgotten she could just will the leash away, she was clearly not in a clear thinking state. Oh, and mohg is a coward by nature. None of that fear had to do with TAR-ing.

 

And I have asked for proof that Slayer is a beast, no one has ever offered any. I get that you got that feeling when reading it. But Padan Fain shows some epic powers, slayer does not. This post goes right back to my previous post where you think slayer is good because he beats perrin, and you think Perrin is good because he almost beats slayer. Well guess what, they might both just suck.

 

What makes you think Egwene cannot lock down slayer? Or that Elayne or Nynaeve couldn't do it even? Because his name is cool?

 

Mogh was scared because they were there in the flesh. That makes them incredibly powerful, as is evidenced by Slayer, Rand, Rahvin, etc.

 

Nyn's weave (through Mogh) did jack to Rahvin. It's definitely not only Rahvin's channeling becoming stronger if a weave used by a Forsaken level channeler can be shrugged off.

 

Slayer is a "creature of TAR." He doesn't have to be a literal lion. Egwene can't lock down Slayer. Egwene used her "tower is my power" trick when she saw Perrin's "I own this place" trick. That trick obviously does not work on Slayer because his willpower is incredible compared to Egwene's/Perrin's since he's there in the flesh. If Egwene could use something she learned from Perrin to beat Slayer, why wouldn't Perrin have done it?

 

The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

All the skill Egwene has goes for nothing because dreaming humans are as weak as children compared to Slayer. The entire "I win" ego trick also won't work if an arrow is sticking out of your gut. Slayer would decimate any number of humans in the dream. Perrin didn't "beat" Slayer, he achieved the objective. This is a victory, but the loss was great. He lost many wolves, which are definitely stronger than the average dream walker, in his campaign against Slayer.

 

Like I've said before, Egwene and even her WO teachers don't track nearly as fast/well as Slayer. It's also very difficult to use willpower to redirect an arrow if it kills you before you know it's there. Perrin didn't stand a chance against Slayer when he was willing things away to land an arrow on him.

 

It may be unwise to assume Perrin is stronger than Egwene, but it's ridiculous to assume that Egwene was so much stronger than Perrin that she'd stand a chance against Slayer in a willpower to willpower fight.

 

First, Mogh delt with Birgitte's arrows until shot by surprise just like Slayer. And we know for fact she's not some TAR goddess by how she crumples to the a'dam. So I don't see where you're going with that. I've consistently maintained that Perrin is like a TAR fighter, and Egwene is like a TAR channeler. Just like in the real world, a fighter can ABSOLUTELY kill a channeler by surprise or with some luck. But If I had to bet, I'd put my money on the channeler every time.

 

Where's the evidence Slayer has any special willpower? We know channeling is more powerful in the flesh, but not willpower. Note that when Nynaeve uses the crappy ter'angreal she can barely make a flame dance with the OP, but she never says anything about being unable to train with Elayne to the same caliber while she used the stone ring. Also, why would Mohg sleep while some Chosen enter in the flesh? She should be worried about being out-TARed by them if it were the case. Instead, she's only worried once she's leashed, and it's all about their channeling.

 

I'm still waiting for someone to post the parts I've obviously missed that makes you all think he's the Machin Shin of TAR.

 

I gave reasons as to why I think Slayer is extremely competent in TAR both here:

 

 

The reasoning behind Slayer being awesome in TAR is that he seems to have been made with TAR in mind. That and Perrin has said numerous times that Slayer is incredibly strong in the dream and Graendal herself has said that he was special. So there is evidence that Slayer is "epic" in the dream. And Perrin's performance against him is evidence that he isn't too shabby himself.

 

And here:

 

 

So the wolves are just all ignorant when they claim that Slayer is very dangerous in the Dream? What about Graendal who thinks that Slayer knows he's special? And Perrin who says that Slayer is very strong, is he ignorant? And why would Moridin give Slayer to Graendal for the purpose of guarding the Dreamspike if he wasn't entirely confident of Slayer's abilities in TAR? Do the Wise Ones' opinions just supercede and negate all of theirs?

 

Perrin spends his time training for his confrontation with Slayer by repeatedly going into nightmares, and in the end he, and an entire pack of wolves, cannot bring Slayer down. Personally, I think there's plenty of evidence that Slayer is badass in TAR. And it has nothing to do with people wanting Perrin to look good. Perrin isn't even a particularly loved character.

 

If you don't think these reasons are valid, then say so and tell me why, but please don't just ignore the posts. Thanks to "copy and paste" and "multiquote" reposting them is not difficult, but it can be irritating.

 

The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

Rhavin was willing Rand to transform into an animal that couldn't channel at the end of their battle. Rand was thinking that he had one last chance to Balefire Rhavin but couldn't see him in the colonnades above. Luckily for Rand, Nynaeve's futile weave of fire around Rhavin made him step into the open so that Rand could finish him off. If not for Nynaeve, Rand would have been turned into whatever Rhavin envisioned and would have been killed or carted off to Shayol Ghul.

 

So, when you say that Rhavin couldn't beat uneducated Rand with willpower, I think the text proves you wrong.

 

Exactly right.

 

Well, yes and no. The fact that Rhavin was clearly on the verge of victory shows that it's not all about willpower. But the fact that Rhavin didn't crush Rand instantly shows that willpower even without training makes a difference. The difference between Rand and Rhavin was that one very likely had training and the other had none. Of course if LTT's experience was slipping through...

Edited by Master Ablar

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I think the Brandon Sanderson quote is being thrown around a little too easily in some cases.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are essentially what he says, right?

 

"It would be unwise to say Perrin was better than Egwene BASED ON THAT SCENE"

and

"Bear in mind that Egwene was rusty and distracted during that fight and Perrin had just done a lot of combat training"

 

Whilst I can definitely see why people think this implies that this means Perrin isn't better than Egwene in general, at the end of the day, it doesn't actually say that outright. Using it to counteract statements saying "Perrin is obviously better because look how surprised Egwene is!" is not only understandable, but obvious, but it doesn't say that Perrin is definitely not better than Egwene, no matter what suggestions/ evidence you see to the contrary- hence my capitalisation of the words "Based on that scene". I definitely see why people use the quote from BS to say "Well, I think this implies that Egwene is stronger", but that's different from saying "Brandon says everyone who think Perrin might be better than Egwene is being unwise". Not everyone bases their arguments off that scene, a lot of the ones I've seen mention their differing training experiences and fighting strategies.

 

I think the willpower trick/ strategy might well come down to who has the strongest willpower, yes... but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Perrin would definitely cave in under those circumstances. I think he's pretty determined and stubborn when he wants to be.

 

I like the idea of a big TAR battle with Egwene/ Dreamwalkers taking on another Forsaken, and Perrin and the wolves taking down Slayer. Though, I confess, I'd kind of like Moghedien's final showdown to be with Nynaeve, and I can't help but think that it might well be Rand that takes down Cyndane/Lanfear, based on their backstory. Admittedly, its unlikely that a battle would slot so neatly into story/character applicable battles, but I suspect the Wheel of Time might go down this road to some extent, anyway :P Maybe Black Ajah, or Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers, if not Forsaken? Are there any Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers? One would assume they'd have some tricks up their sleeve, we've seen how adept the Wise Ones are at using TAR.

 

Of course, ideally, as people have said before, Perrin and the Dreamwalkers should get together and exchange some tricks, to make them all more effective in TAR. But that would require communication, and everyone in the Wheel of Time seems to think that too much communication will give them herpes or something.

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The willpower 1-shot trick doesn't work on people that have stronger wills. Rahvin couldn't use it to will Rand out of existence although Rand has no clue what he's doing in TAR. It's all a matter of strength; strength in the dream is something Slayer has in abundance. Slayer is something new yet something old. The something old is the shadow's ability/penchant of fighting in TAR in the flesh. The WO hold this skill as taboo for good reason.

 

Rhavin was willing Rand to transform into an animal that couldn't channel at the end of their battle. Rand was thinking that he had one last chance to Balefire Rhavin but couldn't see him in the colonnades above. Luckily for Rand, Nynaeve's futile weave of fire around Rhavin made him step into the open so that Rand could finish him off. If not for Nynaeve, Rand would have been turned into whatever Rhavin envisioned and would have been killed or carted off to Shayol Ghul.

 

So, when you say that Rhavin couldn't beat uneducated Rand with willpower, I think the text proves you wrong.

 

Rand was fighting back. The fact that he was able to use balefire while being afflicted with whatever willpower 1-hit-ko that Rahvin was trying to work on him would be the same as Slayer hitting Egwene with an arrow if she tried that trick on him. After LTT clued Rand in to the attack, he was able to start fighting despite not knowing jack about TAR.

 

 

 

 

 

Where's the evidence Slayer has any special willpower? We know channeling is more powerful in the flesh, but not willpower. Note that when Nynaeve uses the crappy ter'angreal she can barely make a flame dance with the OP, but she never says anything about being unable to train with Elayne to the same caliber while she used the stone ring. Also, why would Mohg sleep while some Chosen enter in the flesh? She should be worried about being out-TARed by them if it were the case. Instead, she's only worried once she's leashed, and it's all about their channeling.

 

Nyn had mogh leashed when she hit Rahvin with a weave of fire to distract him. If forsaken level channeling can't harm someone who's in TAR in the flesh, then being in TAR in the flesh must clearly afford incredible strength. I'm pretty sure she wasn't angry, and was using mogh (who was asleep and not using a weak ter'angreal) to weave.

 

Mogh's character is exceedingly cautious. As the most experienced in TAR, she better than anyone would know the dangers of entering it in the flesh. She was very, very frightened of Rahvin and Rand being there in the flesh, and she must have good reason if she does not do it herself. As the WO said, one "leaves something of themselves behind" in TAR when they go there in the flesh. We don't exactly know what this means, but there must obviously be some price for being able to frighten Mogh (possibly the best dream walker) out of her wits.

 

There has been no evidence of incredible channeling by people in TAR in the flesh. However, when Rahvin got hit by Nyn's(mogh's) fire and was only startled, it showed that it gives them some sort of all-around strength. Rand and Rahvin are incredibly powerful channelers, both of which were dueling with balefire. If being in TAR made channeling stronger by copious amounts, enough to frighten Mogh, they would've unraveled TAR's Camelyn with that fight.

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I sorry to break it to you, but anyone can beat anyone in TAR if the plot requires it. Like the barely trained Perrin almost killing Slayer in TSR. Or Nynaeve beating Moggy. This whole discussion is pretty pointless.

 

There has been no evidence of incredible channeling by people in TAR in the flesh. However, when Rahvin got hit by Nyn's(mogh's) fire and was only startled, it showed that it gives them some sort of all-around strength.

Only startled? "His face was a seared ruin, one eye milky white...The Forsaken was a figure of char and cracked red flesh that would have strained any Healer to mend. The agony of it must have been overwhelming".

 

He was dying, only the Void kept him going on his last remnants of strength and willpower.

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It seems to me that Egwene as a Dreamer and a Dreamwalker has the potential to be as "strong" as anyone can be in TAR. By the end of ToM though Perrins skill in battle using the rules of the wolf dream far exceed Egwene's abilities in TAR, rusty or not. Perrin's training by Hopper has been focused on getting him ready to fight Slayer and Slayer is the most deadly thing in TAR outside of a forsaken being there in the flesh. This point is debatable but I know of know one else in the series that has been shown to have fighting skills in TAR equal to Slayers. Only Perrin. Slayer's very name was given to him by the wolves who live half of their existence in TAR.

 

Egwene's skill in TAR is more well rounded than Perrin's is and somewhat different. Perrin however fights like a wolf with a man's mind. I believe the speed and ferocity that Perrin fights with in the wolf dream is beyond anything Egwene could achieve. Egwene fights like a dreamwalker or AS. That is that she fights a more thoughtful stand-up fight and needs to keep her composer and wits about her. Perrin is all wolves instinct and twitch fiber reaction. I think Perrin would pummel Egwene in an all out fight even with more training for Egwene. But, Egwene's talents are much more versatile and useful to humans needs.

 

So, "Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?" Perrin in a battle, Egwene for most things else.

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I sorry to break it to you, but anyone can beat anyone in TAR if the plot requires it. Like the barely trained Perrin almost killing Slayer in TSR. Or Nynaeve beating Moggy. This whole discussion is pretty pointless.

 

There has been no evidence of incredible channeling by people in TAR in the flesh. However, when Rahvin got hit by Nyn's(mogh's) fire and was only startled, it showed that it gives them some sort of all-around strength.

Only startled? "His face was a seared ruin, one eye milky white...The Forsaken was a figure of char and cracked red flesh that would have strained any Healer to mend. The agony of it must have been overwhelming".

 

He was dying, only the Void kept him going on his last remnants of strength and willpower.

 

Also Cookie, we've seen the very same attack way back at The Eye when Moiraine enveloped Balthamel in fire before screaming and telling the Two Rivers gang to run. I don't think the damage was as bad because Balthamel was able to step through but I account that to Moiraine's strength compared to Nynaeve's (I know she was forcing Mogs to channel through the A'dam but they are of the same strength).

 

And Rand's POV at the time with Rhavin was that he was losing and couldn't turn himself back to a man, he was hoping for a miracle and got one. LTT wasn't helping him, in fact Lews slowed him down early in the fight by changing Rand's image to his own.

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I think the difference between Moiraine's attack on Aginor compared to Ny's attack on Rahvin was that in the former case Aginor actually saw the attack and weaved the shield. Rahvin did not see the attack and got hit with the first blast.

 

On a secondary note..isn't it odd that none of the current AS know how to create the shield to block OP attacks?

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Again you're throwing around the "unwise" too easely. Brandon said it was unwise to assume that Perrin is better than Egwene based solely on that confrontation. I wrote a post myself just a page or two back where I said that it wouldn't be right to come to definite conclusions based simply on one confrontation or performance (it was in regards to Egwene vs Mesaana, but it works just as well for Perrin and Egwene's confrontation), similarly to how you can't judge a promising new talent based off his first game, whether that first game is great, or terrible. At no point have I claimed that Perrin was better just on the basis that Egwene was left stunned at Perrin's actions in their meeting. I certainly didn't here:

 

It has already been shown in the series that channellers of the current Age have managed things which the AoLers thought impossible. Just because the Forsaken fight a certain way in TAR does not mean it is the most effective. And we have yet to see how Moghedien and Lanfear fight in TAR, as they are afterall the best Forsaken in TAR. Then again I can't see them fighting in Slayer's style.

 

The reason I think Perrin is good in TAR is because he has been trained specifically with fighting in mind, which you'll notice is not the case for Egwene, her training being more general. Furthemore while is style is mostly physical (he has gotten creative at times), it's also instinctive and doesn't have the drawback of channelling (which in TAR is very much a drawback). Perrin's training was also focused on his mastery of himself, which is why I think people would have a hard time manipulating him and his image of himself in TAR, particularly now that he's completely at peace. The wolf style seems to be based on speed and consistently keeping your foe off balance. Perrin also has the advantage of having his wolf senses (sight, hearing, smell).

 

Whose potential is greatest, I don't think can be determined yet, nor can it be determined conclusively which style is best, as neither have actually been opposed at any point in the series. However I would say that at the moment Perrin has the advantage, due to his intensive training, the fact that his training has been focused purely on fighting, and Egwene having gotten somewhat rusty because of having to focuse on other things.

 

As you can see, no assuming, only solid, justified reasons, none of which are that Perrin befuddled Egwene in their confrontation. On the other hand, I have to admit I was unintentionally misleading when I said that: "Brandon didn't say she would be able to surpass him (though it's quite possible she can)", which obviously makes it sound like Perrin is better. I should have written that Brandon never said one was better than the other, but that if Perrin is better, Egwene could possibly surpass him, as we don't know who has the greatest potential. Sorry for not being clear.

 

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty

 

The entire Brandon quote was a response to Terez because she implied that Perrin was better than Egwene. It WAS NOT an answer to a question (and for the record Terez notes she figured as much). Brandon chose to clarify an erroneous assumption, he was not answering a question. There's significance in that alone. So if you want to claim, "I don't assume that moment proves it, I assume OTHER moments prove it" then fine. But why on earth would Brandon clarify about a single moment if he would have turned around and said, "but in every other moment he would have been better". That makes zero sense.

 

Also, note how I highlighted "to fight like that". Meaning Perrin was specifically trained to avoid THAT particular style. What Egwene did is more along the lines of what Slayer/Perrin would do against each other. IT also implies Perrin was not trained how to fight other style(s). Also remember the Brandon quote about how "What they do is different". So Egwene is different, Perrin is only trained in 1 way (the same way Slayer and the wolves use).

 

I gave reasons as to why I think Slayer is extremely competent in TAR both here:

 

The reasoning behind Slayer being awesome in TAR is that he seems to have been made with TAR in mind. That and Perrin has said numerous times that Slayer is incredibly strong in the dream and Graendal herself has said that he was special. So there is evidence that Slayer is "epic" in the dream. And Perrin's performance against him is evidence that he isn't too shabby himself.

 

"he seems to have been made with TAR in mind." He SEEMS to have been? That is evidence of nothing. Trollocs were made with killing in mind, and they're not particularly good at it relative to our heroes, so I don't get how this is evidence of anything.

 

And here:

So the wolves are just all ignorant when they claim that Slayer is very dangerous in the Dream? What about Graendal who thinks that Slayer knows he's special? And Perrin who says that Slayer is very strong, is he ignorant? And why would Moridin give Slayer to Graendal for the purpose of guarding the Dreamspike if he wasn't entirely confident of Slayer's abilities in TAR? Do the Wise Ones' opinions just supercede and negate all of theirs?

 

Perrin spends his time training for his confrontation with Slayer by repeatedly going into nightmares, and in the end he, and an entire pack of wolves, cannot bring Slayer down. Personally, I think there's plenty of evidence that Slayer is badass in TAR. And it has nothing to do with people wanting Perrin to look good. Perrin isn't even a particularly loved character.

 

Slayer is dangerous to the wolves because he killed a bajillion of them... I don't see how this has any bearing on how dangerous slayer is to Egwene, who is completely different from a wolf, as per the Brandon quote. Ok, Slayer is better than wolves, whoopdie doo. And slayer is very "special" possibly unique to this age, though I think Birgs claims he may be an "old evil"? We don't know. But again, you assume he's powerful because he's rare and we don't know much about him? That's kind of the opposite of evidence.

 

And I'm not arguing slayer is TERRIBLE. Just that he's not the Machin Shin of TAR, some undefeatable evil that Perrin stood up to, making Perrin a near-God of TAR. So all the character opinions you quoted could very well be true, and yet he could still be worse than Egwene.

 

From what we've actually seen, he can't do much. He used a bow to shoot a bird. I'm sorry, but that's amateur stuff.

 

If you don't think these reasons are valid, then say so and tell me why, but please don't just ignore the posts. Thanks to "copy and paste" and "multiquote" reposting them is not difficult, but it can be irritating.

 

My bad, though I think I had dismissed the "Creature of TAR" previously as not evidence. And my statement was directed more towards the new people who keep showing up with the common, "perrin is awesome because Slayer is awesome and slayer is awesome because Perrin, as a hero, must be awesome" logic.

 

Well, yes and no. The fact that Rhavin was clearly on the verge of victory shows that it's not all about willpower. But the fact that Rhavin didn't crush Rand instantly shows that willpower even without training makes a difference. The difference between Rand and Rhavin was that one very likely had training and the other had none. Of course if LTT's experience was slipping through...

 

I don't think this could be evaluated to any accuracy. It's like those economic problems where you want to know if the price of ketchup will go up or down based on the facts the price of french fries is going down, but the price of vinegar is also going down. One compliment, one complementary. No way to tell without further information.

 

I think the Brandon Sanderson quote is being thrown around a little too easily in some cases.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are essentially what he says, right?

 

"It would be unwise to say Perrin was better than Egwene BASED ON THAT SCENE"

and

"Bear in mind that Egwene was rusty and distracted during that fight and Perrin had just done a lot of combat training"

 

Whilst I can definitely see why people think this implies that this means Perrin isn't better than Egwene in general, at the end of the day, it doesn't actually say that outright. Using it to counteract statements saying "Perrin is obviously better because look how surprised Egwene is!" is not only understandable, but obvious, but it doesn't say that Perrin is definitely not better than Egwene, no matter what suggestions/ evidence you see to the contrary- hence my capitalisation of the words "Based on that scene". I definitely see why people use the quote from BS to say "Well, I think this implies that Egwene is stronger", but that's different from saying "Brandon says everyone who think Perrin might be better than Egwene is being unwise". Not everyone bases their arguments off that scene, a lot of the ones I've seen mention their differing training experiences and fighting strategies.

 

I think the willpower trick/ strategy might well come down to who has the strongest willpower, yes... but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Perrin would definitely cave in under those circumstances. I think he's pretty determined and stubborn when he wants to be.

 

I like the idea of a big TAR battle with Egwene/ Dreamwalkers taking on another Forsaken, and Perrin and the wolves taking down Slayer. Though, I confess, I'd kind of like Moghedien's final showdown to be with Nynaeve, and I can't help but think that it might well be Rand that takes down Cyndane/Lanfear, based on their backstory. Admittedly, its unlikely that a battle would slot so neatly into story/character applicable battles, but I suspect the Wheel of Time might go down this road to some extent, anyway :P Maybe Black Ajah, or Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers, if not Forsaken? Are there any Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers? One would assume they'd have some tricks up their sleeve, we've seen how adept the Wise Ones are at using TAR.

 

Of course, ideally, as people have said before, Perrin and the Dreamwalkers should get together and exchange some tricks, to make them all more effective in TAR. But that would require communication, and everyone in the Wheel of Time seems to think that too much communication will give them herpes or something.

 

he actually says "that moment" which is even more restrictive than "Scene" or "battle". And while this is directed squarely at me for throwing around 'unwise', I actually agree with you. Unfortuantely, 99% of the arguments here come back to 'that moment'.

 

Also, while you are technically correct, as I mentioned above, the quote is not a response to a question about who is better. It was interjected when Terez made a suggestion that Perrin was better. So my position would be that to think Perrin is better is to be discouraging by Brandon. That is further supported by his statement that "Dreaming is egwene's thing". Now some take that to mean literally dreaming prophecies, but that makes no sense in the context. "Dreaming" was clearly used as a generic term to mean all the TAR, prophetic dreams, dreamwalking skills/talents.

 

Since I've referenced the greater quote a bunch of times, here's the WHOLE thing. Excuse the growing length of this post:

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

Terez

Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.

Terez

The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.

Terez

Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.

Brandon

Well, out of fondness, I'll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.

Terez

lol. The male Aelfinn?

Brandon

Dang. You're too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there's actually a man--human--who meets your requirements.

 

See. I can see how the start makes it LOOK like they're talking about prophetic dreams only, but then in brandon's last bold-ed line he clearly links together the TAR scene with how he's talking about "dreaming". Showing that he's referring to ALL aspects of Dreaming as Egwene's thing.

 

It seems to me that Egwene as a Dreamer and a Dreamwalker has the potential to be as "strong" as anyone can be in TAR. By the end of ToM though Perrins skill in battle using the rules of the wolf dream far exceed Egwene's abilities in TAR, rusty or not. Perrin's training by Hopper has been focused on getting him ready to fight Slayer and Slayer is the most deadly thing in TAR outside of a forsaken being there in the flesh. This point is debatable but I know of know one else in the series that has been shown to have fighting skills in TAR equal to Slayers. Only Perrin. Slayer's very name was given to him by the wolves who live half of their existence in TAR.

 

Egwene's skill in TAR is more well rounded than Perrin's is and somewhat different. Perrin however fights like a wolf with a man's mind. I believe the speed and ferocity that Perrin fights with in the wolf dream is beyond anything Egwene could achieve. Egwene fights like a dreamwalker or AS. That is that she fights a more thoughtful stand-up fight and needs to keep her composer and wits about her. Perrin is all wolves instinct and twitch fiber reaction. I think Perrin would pummel Egwene in an all out fight even with more training for Egwene. But, Egwene's talents are much more versatile and useful to humans needs.

 

So, "Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?" Perrin in a battle, Egwene for most things else.

 

"'How did I beat you?' -'You're too strong, too fast'. -'Do you think my being stronger, faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place?'"

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Again you're throwing around the "unwise" too easely. Brandon said it was unwise to assume that Perrin is better than Egwene based solely on that confrontation. I wrote a post myself just a page or two back where I said that it wouldn't be right to come to definite conclusions based simply on one confrontation or performance (it was in regards to Egwene vs Mesaana, but it works just as well for Perrin and Egwene's confrontation), similarly to how you can't judge a promising new talent based off his first game, whether that first game is great, or terrible. At no point have I claimed that Perrin was better just on the basis that Egwene was left stunned at Perrin's actions in their meeting. I certainly didn't here:

 

It has already been shown in the series that channellers of the current Age have managed things which the AoLers thought impossible. Just because the Forsaken fight a certain way in TAR does not mean it is the most effective. And we have yet to see how Moghedien and Lanfear fight in TAR, as they are afterall the best Forsaken in TAR. Then again I can't see them fighting in Slayer's style.

 

The reason I think Perrin is good in TAR is because he has been trained specifically with fighting in mind, which you'll notice is not the case for Egwene, her training being more general. Furthemore while is style is mostly physical (he has gotten creative at times), it's also instinctive and doesn't have the drawback of channelling (which in TAR is very much a drawback). Perrin's training was also focused on his mastery of himself, which is why I think people would have a hard time manipulating him and his image of himself in TAR, particularly now that he's completely at peace. The wolf style seems to be based on speed and consistently keeping your foe off balance. Perrin also has the advantage of having his wolf senses (sight, hearing, smell).

 

Whose potential is greatest, I don't think can be determined yet, nor can it be determined conclusively which style is best, as neither have actually been opposed at any point in the series. However I would say that at the moment Perrin has the advantage, due to his intensive training, the fact that his training has been focused purely on fighting, and Egwene having gotten somewhat rusty because of having to focuse on other things.

 

As you can see, no assuming, only solid, justified reasons, none of which are that Perrin befuddled Egwene in their confrontation. On the other hand, I have to admit I was unintentionally misleading when I said that: "Brandon didn't say she would be able to surpass him (though it's quite possible she can)", which obviously makes it sound like Perrin is better. I should have written that Brandon never said one was better than the other, but that if Perrin is better, Egwene could possibly surpass him, as we don't know who has the greatest potential. Sorry for not being clear.

 

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty

 

The entire Brandon quote was a response to Terez because she implied that Perrin was better than Egwene. It WAS NOT an answer to a question (and for the record Terez notes she figured as much). Brandon chose to clarify an erroneous assumption, he was not answering a question. There's significance in that alone. So if you want to claim, "I don't assume that moment proves it, I assume OTHER moments prove it" then fine. But why on earth would Brandon clarify about a single moment if he would have turned around and said, "but in every other moment he would have been better". That makes zero sense.

 

Also, note how I highlighted "to fight like that". Meaning Perrin was specifically trained to avoid THAT particular style. What Egwene did is more along the lines of what Slayer/Perrin would do against each other. IT also implies Perrin was not trained how to fight other style(s). Also remember the Brandon quote about how "What they do is different". So Egwene is different, Perrin is only trained in 1 way (the same way Slayer and the wolves use).

 

I don't think anything proves that Perrin is better than Egwene, or the other way around simply because they have never faced each other, and in fact have never even faced the same opponent. Brandon clarified about that moment because it is the only moment in which one could compare them directly. There are no other moments that need clarification. Every other reason why one could decide that Perrin is better, or Egwene is better, is basically built off their abilities, and talents, and why those would give Perrin or Egwene the edge. You'll notice that the reasons I gave as to why I think Perrin is good in TAR are purily based on his abilities and talents, and not on comparisons with other Egwene or other characters.

 

I think his "training to fight like that" is in reference to his blocking balefire and not letting anything appear as impossible. Perrin's fighting is based on thought, which is precisely where Egwene has goten rusty because she has had to fight other fights (fights in the real world where channelling would make the difference. Hence the contrasting of Perrin and Egwene with "while" in his sentence.

 

The "what they do is different" is refering to the difference between Perrin's ability to see visions in TAR, and Egwene's ability in prophetic Dreaming. He's not talking about fighting styles in TAR.

 

I gave reasons as to why I think Slayer is extremely competent in TAR both here:

 

The reasoning behind Slayer being awesome in TAR is that he seems to have been made with TAR in mind. That and Perrin has said numerous times that Slayer is incredibly strong in the dream and Graendal herself has said that he was special. So there is evidence that Slayer is "epic" in the dream. And Perrin's performance against him is evidence that he isn't too shabby himself.

 

"he seems to have been made with TAR in mind." He SEEMS to have been? That is evidence of nothing. Trollocs were made with killing in mind, and they're not particularly good at it relative to our heroes, so I don't get how this is evidence of anything.

 

The obvious difference between trollocs and Slayer being that there are tons of them, and exactly one of him. There were only 6 gholams made because of how effective they are. The creatures that are the least valuable come in the greatest number, whereas those that are the most valuable come in small numbers.

 

Also Greandal has said that he was special, and not just his condition. His abilities clearly made him invaluable. And Moridin gave him to her for the purpose of guarding the dreamspike personally. So the Forsaken seem to have a good opinion of him, or at least his abilities, as well.

 

And here:

So the wolves are just all ignorant when they claim that Slayer is very dangerous in the Dream? What about Graendal who thinks that Slayer knows he's special? And Perrin who says that Slayer is very strong, is he ignorant? And why would Moridin give Slayer to Graendal for the purpose of guarding the Dreamspike if he wasn't entirely confident of Slayer's abilities in TAR? Do the Wise Ones' opinions just supercede and negate all of theirs?

 

Perrin spends his time training for his confrontation with Slayer by repeatedly going into nightmares, and in the end he, and an entire pack of wolves, cannot bring Slayer down. Personally, I think there's plenty of evidence that Slayer is badass in TAR. And it has nothing to do with people wanting Perrin to look good. Perrin isn't even a particularly loved character.

 

Slayer is dangerous to the wolves because he killed a bajillion of them... I don't see how this has any bearing on how dangerous slayer is to Egwene, who is completely different from a wolf, as per the Brandon quote. Ok, Slayer is better than wolves, whoopdie doo. And slayer is very "special" possibly unique to this age, though I think Birgs claims he may be an "old evil"? We don't know. But again, you assume he's powerful because he's rare and we don't know much about him? That's kind of the opposite of evidence.

 

And I'm not arguing slayer is TERRIBLE. Just that he's not the Machin Shin of TAR, some undefeatable evil that Perrin stood up to, making Perrin a near-God of TAR. So all the character opinions you quoted could very well be true, and yet he could still be worse than Egwene.

 

From what we've actually seen, he can't do much. He used a bow to shoot a bird. I'm sorry, but that's amateur stuff.

 

True, those are only the wolves opinions of him, but why should they be less knowledgeable of TAR than the Wise Ones? It comes down to not being able to compare the Perrin/Slayer/wolves group/style of fighting to the Egwene/Wise Ones group/style of fighting, for the simple reason that they haven't faced off yet. It ends up being, mostly, just personal opinion. However, like I said above, the Forsaken, or at least Moridin and Greandal, think Slayer is pretty valuable.

 

Well, yes and no. The fact that Rhavin was clearly on the verge of victory shows that it's not all about willpower. But the fact that Rhavin didn't crush Rand instantly shows that willpower even without training makes a difference. The difference between Rand and Rhavin was that one very likely had training and the other had none. Of course if LTT's experience was slipping through...

 

I don't think this could be evaluated to any accuracy. It's like those economic problems where you want to know if the price of ketchup will go up or down based on the facts the price of french fries is going down, but the price of vinegar is also going down. One compliment, one complementary. No way to tell without further information.

 

Nor do I. I think all that can be said with certainty is that willpower, even if you aren't trained in TAR will probably be an asset. How much of an asset is really impossible to calculate.

 

I think the Brandon Sanderson quote is being thrown around a little too easily in some cases.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are essentially what he says, right?

 

"It would be unwise to say Perrin was better than Egwene BASED ON THAT SCENE"

and

"Bear in mind that Egwene was rusty and distracted during that fight and Perrin had just done a lot of combat training"

 

Whilst I can definitely see why people think this implies that this means Perrin isn't better than Egwene in general, at the end of the day, it doesn't actually say that outright. Using it to counteract statements saying "Perrin is obviously better because look how surprised Egwene is!" is not only understandable, but obvious, but it doesn't say that Perrin is definitely not better than Egwene, no matter what suggestions/ evidence you see to the contrary- hence my capitalisation of the words "Based on that scene". I definitely see why people use the quote from BS to say "Well, I think this implies that Egwene is stronger", but that's different from saying "Brandon says everyone who think Perrin might be better than Egwene is being unwise". Not everyone bases their arguments off that scene, a lot of the ones I've seen mention their differing training experiences and fighting strategies.

 

I think the willpower trick/ strategy might well come down to who has the strongest willpower, yes... but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Perrin would definitely cave in under those circumstances. I think he's pretty determined and stubborn when he wants to be.

 

I like the idea of a big TAR battle with Egwene/ Dreamwalkers taking on another Forsaken, and Perrin and the wolves taking down Slayer. Though, I confess, I'd kind of like Moghedien's final showdown to be with Nynaeve, and I can't help but think that it might well be Rand that takes down Cyndane/Lanfear, based on their backstory. Admittedly, its unlikely that a battle would slot so neatly into story/character applicable battles, but I suspect the Wheel of Time might go down this road to some extent, anyway :P Maybe Black Ajah, or Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers, if not Forsaken? Are there any Darkfriend Aiel Dreamwalkers? One would assume they'd have some tricks up their sleeve, we've seen how adept the Wise Ones are at using TAR.

 

Of course, ideally, as people have said before, Perrin and the Dreamwalkers should get together and exchange some tricks, to make them all more effective in TAR. But that would require communication, and everyone in the Wheel of Time seems to think that too much communication will give them herpes or something.

 

he actually says "that moment" which is even more restrictive than "Scene" or "battle". And while this is directed squarely at me for throwing around 'unwise', I actually agree with you. Unfortuantely, 99% of the arguments here come back to 'that moment'.

 

Also, while you are technically correct, as I mentioned above, the quote is not a response to a question about who is better. It was interjected when Terez made a suggestion that Perrin was better. So my position would be that to think Perrin is better is to be discouraging by Brandon. That is further supported by his statement that "Dreaming is egwene's thing". Now some take that to mean literally dreaming prophecies, but that makes no sense in the context. "Dreaming" was clearly used as a generic term to mean all the TAR, prophetic dreams, dreamwalking skills/talents.

 

Since I've referenced the greater quote a bunch of times, here's the WHOLE thing. Excuse the growing length of this post:

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

Terez

Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.

Terez

The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.

Terez

Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.

Brandon

Well, out of fondness, I'll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.

Terez

lol. The male Aelfinn?

Brandon

Dang. You're too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there's actually a man--human--who meets your requirements.

 

See. I can see how the start makes it LOOK like they're talking about prophetic dreams only, but then in brandon's last bold-ed line he clearly links together the TAR scene with how he's talking about "dreaming". Showing that he's referring to ALL aspects of Dreaming as Egwene's thing.

 

 

Brandon says that Dreaming is Egwene's thing before Terez makes the suggestion, so her dreamwalking abilities were not the subject. Before she makes that suggestion, there is no confusion. So no, to me he is referring only to her prophetic Dreaming abilities as being "her thing". Then Terez makes the suggestion that Perrin is actually better, followed by her saying that she knows Perrin's visions are different from Egwene's prophetic dreams. Then Brandon responds "Perrin does something different" to Terez immediatly previous line. After that he responds to her previous suggestion about Perrin actually being better than Egwene with "Egwene was caught off guard..." and all the rest about why she was off her game.

Edited by Master Ablar

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So to clarify, your position is that there's no way to know who is better, they are just different? I COULD be on board with that. I have never suggested there's any reason to feel Egwene is better other than the fact it APPEARS destroying someone's mind is pretty damn OP...

 

Again, I am not arguing that Slayer sucks. I'm saying there's no reason to think he's the Machin Shin of TAR as people have suggested. He has DONE nothing special to suggest that. And what he has done is particularly NOT special. Amateur Perrin even got him with an arrow. All evidence points to Slayer being capable in TAR, but nowhere near some benchmark to define Perrin as a God.

 

Valuable is not "godly". And if slayer was so good why use him to guard a dreamspike like some trash shadowspawn? I mean Shaidar Haran is rare and special and gets a very vaulted role. Wouldn't Moridin use Slayer for bigger things instead of maybe even the forsaken if he were so godly good in TAR? Well he doesn't, so I assume he's not as good as the forsaken, like... Mesaana... *cough*.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

Terez

Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.

Terez

The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.

Terez

Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.

Brandon

Well, out of fondness, I'll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.

Terez

lol. The male Aelfinn?

Brandon

Dang. You're too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there's actually a man--human--who meets your requirements.

 

See. I can see how the start makes it LOOK like they're talking about prophetic dreams only, but then in brandon's last bold-ed line he clearly links together the TAR scene with how he's talking about "dreaming". Showing that he's referring to ALL aspects of Dreaming as Egwene's thing.

 

 

Brandon says that Dreaming is Egwene's thing before Terez makes the suggestion, so her dreamwalking abilities were not the subject. Before she makes that suggestion, there is no confusion. So no, to me he is referring only to her prophetic Dreaming abilities as being "her thing". Then Terez makes the suggestion that Perrin is actually better, followed by her saying that she knows Perrin's visions are different from Egwene's prophetic dreams. Then Brandon responds "Perrin does something different" to Terez immediatly previous line. After that he responds to her previous suggestion about Perrin actually being better than Egwene with "Egwene was caught off guard..." and all the rest about why she was off her game.

 

Also, I agree that when Brandon said dreaming is egwenes thing they were talking about prophetic dreams. My point is, that the context afterwards suggests that he feels the same for other aspects of "dreaming" in general. And the kicker, is that when Terez says, "didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more?" that's clearly about their confrontation, not about prophetic dreams. So wouldn't Brandon clarify if he ONLY meant prophetic dreams as you claim? Instead, he continues on discussing TAR-ing, which suggests he has no issue linking TAR-ing and Dreaming together as "Egwene's Thing".

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So to clarify, your position is that there's no way to know who is better, they are just different? I COULD be on board with that. I have never suggested there's any reason to feel Egwene is better other than the fact it APPEARS destroying someone's mind is pretty damn OP...

 

Essentially, yes. After all, the fact is that no member of the two different "groups" have ever fought each other. They've only fought amongst themselves. The only possible moment of confrontation is between Perrin and Egwene, and Brandon has clearly said not to assume anything based on that moment. Therefore ultimately, people's opinion of whether one is better than the other, are going to be purely subjective. There may be good arguments for both, but there is no actual proof until one faces the other.

 

Of course, one has to stay reasonable. If someone tells me they think that Nicola could beat Slayer on the basis that no confrontation disproves it, well I'm afraid I'll be having serious doubts about that persons sanity.

 

Again, I am not arguing that Slayer sucks. I'm saying there's no reason to think he's the Machin Shin of TAR as people have suggested. He has DONE nothing special to suggest that. And what he has done is particularly NOT special. Amateur Perrin even got him with an arrow. All evidence points to Slayer being capable in TAR, but nowhere near some benchmark to define Perrin as a God.

 

Obviously, Slayer is not infaliable. No one is. Like you said the fact that he was hit by Perrin's arrow shows he's not a God. However, that is one confrontation. Nyneave managed to capture Moghedien, but that doesn't change the fact that Moghedien is said to be the most dangerous Forsaken in TAR. Both times, arrogance leads to their injury/capture. It's not evidence of a lack of skills, more of a lack of humility.

 

And honestly we haven't seen enough of people fighting in TAR to decide what is special or not. We know the wolves consider extremely dangerous. We'll just have to wait and see what the Wise Ones will think of him. Maybe they'll say he's nothing and send him packing. Or maybe he'll appear behind them faster than they can think, and put an arrow through their hearts.

 

Valuable is not "godly". And if slayer was so good why use him to guard a dreamspike like some trash shadowspawn? I mean Shaidar Haran is rare and special and gets a very vaulted role. Wouldn't Moridin use Slayer for bigger things instead of maybe even the forsaken if he were so godly good in TAR? Well he doesn't, so I assume he's not as good as the forsaken, like... Mesaana... *cough*.

 

I believe, that Moridin has been using him to try and take out Fain. And whay bigger role in TAR could he be given than guarding the dreamspike? Eliminating Perrin is important enough that Moridin gave Greandal one of only two dreamspikes he has, as well as Slayer. And he promised that she would essentially have glory ever after if she succeeded. What bigger role could he have in TAR? Maybe guarding the dreamspike at the BT. Well perhaps he already has Moghedien doing that.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011

I'm also pretty sure Rand's not a Dreamer, though he does have uncommon power over his dreams.

Brandon

But he does not see specific prophecies in his dreams (other than a few debatable moments) nor enter Tel'aran'rhiod spontaneously.

Brandon

But I'll look into it. I rebel against it because Dreaming is basically Egwene's thing.

Terez

Also, didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more? :p

Terez

And yeah, I know his prophetic dreams only happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I just want a male dreamer dangit!

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

Terez

Why do all the prophets have to be female? Foretelling I can see because of the taint, but the rest? Except Perrin.

Terez

The Thom dream used to make me think I was missing something, or maybe a deleted scene. Very odd.

Terez

Also, even with the taint seems like we should have had a male Foretelling by now, or a dreamer. Something.

Brandon

Well, out of fondness, I'll let you know that I DO know of at least one male (other than Perrin) who can see the future.

Terez

lol. The male Aelfinn?

Brandon

Dang. You're too clever. Okay, then, I promise you there's actually a man--human--who meets your requirements.

 

See. I can see how the start makes it LOOK like they're talking about prophetic dreams only, but then in brandon's last bold-ed line he clearly links together the TAR scene with how he's talking about "dreaming". Showing that he's referring to ALL aspects of Dreaming as Egwene's thing.

 

 

Brandon says that Dreaming is Egwene's thing before Terez makes the suggestion, so her dreamwalking abilities were not the subject. Before she makes that suggestion, there is no confusion. So no, to me he is referring only to her prophetic Dreaming abilities as being "her thing". Then Terez makes the suggestion that Perrin is actually better, followed by her saying that she knows Perrin's visions are different from Egwene's prophetic dreams. Then Brandon responds "Perrin does something different" to Terez immediatly previous line. After that he responds to her previous suggestion about Perrin actually being better than Egwene with "Egwene was caught off guard..." and all the rest about why she was off her game.

 

Also, I agree that when Brandon said dreaming is egwenes thing they were talking about prophetic dreams. My point is, that the context afterwards suggests that he feels the same for other aspects of "dreaming" in general. And the kicker, is that when Terez says, "didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more?" that's clearly about their confrontation, not about prophetic dreams. So wouldn't Brandon clarify if he ONLY meant prophetic dreams as you claim? Instead, he continues on discussing TAR-ing, which suggests he has no issue linking TAR-ing and Dreaming together as "Egwene's Thing".

 

Honestly, it's somewhat difficult to decipher exactly what they meant, and whether there was an understanding between them that they didn't feel the need to actually say outloud. To me, Terez was just trying to be funny, when she made the comment, "didn't Perrin pretty much just show her that it wasn't HER thing any more?", which is why she didn't clarify that she was talking about his dreamwalking ability. And I think Brandon understood that which is why he didn't feel the need to clarify.

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If slayer is so epic in TAR, I'm sure there would be something better he could do than guard a dreamspike. But I'd assume all he can do is TAR melee fighting. Which makes him only really useful for guarding something, or assassination I suppose.

 

And maybe if you're so neutral Master Ablar you should argue against the "Slayer would own Egwene crowd" too? Cause basically I'm on your side, but with the added twist that slayer hasn't been shown to be particularly strong, and if Egwene can make someone snap, then what else does she need? But I admit that's purely conjecture.

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Just because.... Slayer IS NOT/WILL NOT be the be all end all of TAR/WD, Perrin by virtue of his dual wolf/human nature should be better than Egwene, I feel that the story line supports this. Did it and the wolves not say that the Wolf Dream/TAR was their place? Also true it would take a lot of energy to will away a dream, but it takes skill and will to enter, survive and thrive in a nightmare. I would say in knowledge of the TAR/WD, Egwene and Perrin are equal. Skill of doing things with thought Perrin is better, Egwene would be better suited as she is Aes Sedai. Raw talent Perrin, inherently this belongs to him instinct and instant thought projection. Egwene can be better than Perrin is now. If she didn't have the onus of being an Aes Sedai. She will rely on the on the One power to do the things she finds difficult in TAR/WD. Thus Perrin has the edge, he must rely on his basic abilities as a Wolf/Dreamer and not supplant them with other abilities. The only reason the one power works in TAR/WD is because of belief, but if you doubt yourself for a second you will end up like well... one of the chosen...a blabbering baby that doesn't do much but soil themselves. Perrin has minimal doubts about the dream... most doubts are about himself. Egwene almost got caught in her doubts about the dream, but overcame them. The beauty of it all is that each character is unique in their abilities and they all have potential for most everything.

V/R

S

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If slayer is so epic in TAR, I'm sure there would be something better he could do than guard a dreamspike. But I'd assume all he can do is TAR melee fighting. Which makes him only really useful for guarding something, or assassination I suppose.

In the end TAR is only the "dreamwolrld". Anything you do there, apart from killing people, is not going to be reflected in the real world.

 

To me Slayer's purpose in TAR is to fight. So yes, assassination, ambush, guarding key objects or locations, etc... anything that involves fighting, that's what I imagine he'll be best at. I doubt he can, for example, pull a person out of their dreams and into TAR, or simply break into a persons dreams.

 

And maybe if you're so neutral Master Ablar you should argue against the "Slayer would own Egwene crowd" too? Cause basically I'm on your side, but with the added twist that slayer hasn't been shown to be particularly strong, and if Egwene can make someone snap, then what else does she need? But I admit that's purely conjecture.

 

I never said I was neutral, just that there isn't conclusive evidence that one is better, or should defeat the other. I still feel that Perrin would beat Egwene, as she is now, in a fight in TAR, and the same with Slayer. The reasons for that are posted somewhere above. If there are reasons why one would tend to think Egwene might be better, then I just haven't found them convincing.

 

If you have two sports teams, who haven't played each other yet, but have identical records, can you really say with certainty that one team is definitely better than the other? You can't, because they have identical records, and there are no past confrontations to base yourself on. However, you can still feel that one team would have the advantage over the other, perhpas because it has assets that the other team doesn't. More experience, an offensive game that the opposing team will have difficulty controlling, an annoying ability to get a win even when they don't deserve it, more rest since the last game, less injuries, etc... None of those reasons however, are proof that one is better than the other. They're just reasons you think one team might have an edge.

 

That is how I feel with Perrin and Egwene. I feel that Perrin has an edge, even if it isn't proof that he would win.

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Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty

 

The entire Brandon quote was a response to Terez because she implied that Perrin was better than Egwene. It WAS NOT an answer to a question (and for the record Terez notes she figured as much). Brandon chose to clarify an erroneous assumption, he was not answering a question. There's significance in that alone. So if you want to claim, "I don't assume that moment proves it, I assume OTHER moments prove it" then fine. But why on earth would Brandon clarify about a single moment if he would have turned around and said, "but in every other moment he would have been better". That makes zero sense.

 

Also, note how I highlighted "to fight like that". Meaning Perrin was specifically trained to avoid THAT particular style. What Egwene did is more along the lines of what Slayer/Perrin would do against each other. IT also implies Perrin was not trained how to fight other style(s). Also remember the Brandon quote about how "What they do is different". So Egwene is different, Perrin is only trained in 1 way (the same way Slayer and the wolves use).

 

Granny was given two "weapons" to use against Perrin: the dreamspike and Slayer. The dreamspike was to keep Perrin in place, and Slayer to protect the dreamspike. He is obviously the TAR weapon of choice for the Dark Side, and Hopper, realizing that Perrin would get his head handed to him because this was a trap set to get him to come to Slayer to die, put Perrin on a crash course of defending himself in a fight with Slayer. And Slayer only. Thus, Hopper trained Perrin to specifically fight Slayer and Slayer's way of battle. In the end, they succeeded in destroying the dreamspike (the REAL reason Perrin was in TAR in the first place) but at a terrible cost. But if we know anything about TAR, we know that it has its own set of rules, better and worst ways of getting things accomplished, and a bunch of different ways of fighting/killing a person.

 

COULD Egwene have the same results as Perrin in the same fight with Slayer? Egwene has a fundamental understanding of what TAR is, and WHY things act as they do there. Perrin has learned how to exist within the realm/rules of TAR, as a wolf would do (a wolf doesn't need to understand how trees coexist with the insects and animals that share the forest in order to live well there). Two different ways of dealing with TAR, and completely different in the application.

 

In the end, who is better head to head pales in comparison to who would be able to KILL Slayer. Perrin thought his main goal in the end game with Slayer was to kill him; but Hopper knew differently. Winning was getting rid of the dreamspike and surviving.

 

Again... how would Egwene do in the same situation? Not bumping into slayer while being in TAR; instead, walking into a Slayer trap and getting her business done...?

 

Also, I would love to hear how the Wise Ones would react to Egwene planning such an attack; they are Egwene's "Hopper", when comparing her to Perrin.

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I totally agree with you on the score thing. But what are your reasons for thinking Perrin is better? Is it a gut feeling? We seem to be going in circles now, but meh, other threads are dull.

 

I've got Egwene blowing up a Forsaken's freakin' mind... I mean that seems hard to trump.

 

Egwene has spent more time training overall, despite being "rusty" which I argue is already gone since she realized she coudl blow up people's minds!

 

Speaking of actual dreamwalking and Slayer's likely inability in that area, could Egwene pull, or lure, anyone into her own dream and have full control of everything, similar to what Ishy used to do back in the day? Suppose you could argue that's no longer TAR, and technically beyond the scope of this thread.

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Guest PiotrekS

I have this feeling, which I know is not exactly backed up in the text, that while the wolves are natural inhabitants of TAR, the dreamwalkers are more of intruders. Their gift allows them to enter the place that would in other circumstances be closed to their species (absent special ter'angreal). The wolves, on the other hand, all go to live in TAR and it is the natural environment for them, maybe even more than the real world. The comparison I have in mind is between a professional diver with great training and equipment (dreamwalker) and a shark (a wolf). Even with today's technology, even the best of divers are not able to move so efficiently under water as sharks do.

 

That's why I have the feeling that Perrin could be stronger than Egwene in TAR. It is a gut feeling, certainly nothing more, and in fact it probably isn't so because of Brandon's quote (he said we should not make assumptions who is stronger, which at least means he was not ready to tell us that either wolves or dreamwalkers are anyhow stronger and so once again I think in a different way than Brandon and Kael :tongue: )

 

While it seems to me that Perrin might be stronger because he is able to think: "It is my place, my home, I rule supreme here", and Egwene can only think: "It is a strange, alien and dangerous place that I'm entering thanks to my special gift and mastering it with my willpower." But there is nothing natural in it, she must strain to control TAR.

 

That's my mental, very subjective picture, but I acknowledge that the text itself does not really allow us to say who is stronger, only that both are indeed very strong.

 

Concerning Egwene defeating Mesaana, I don't think that the duel of wills was exactly the matter of TAR skills. Yes, all that lead up to it was pure TAR skill and maybe even the way they engaged themselves in the duel, but the final outcome was decided by raw willpower. Raw willpower is certainly essential in TAR, but it is not a specific TAR skill. It is more general and helps Egwene not only in TAR, but also in e.g. Tower politics. So I guess we should differentiate between pure TAR skills (moving around, controling the environment, dealing with nightmares etc.) and willpower, which is helpful in all the things I mentioned and decisive in the duel of wills. Therefore, to evaluate Perrin's and Egwene's chances we would have to:

1)consider their pure TAR skills, and

2)consider the likelihhod they would engage in the duel of wills and if so, whose willpower is stronger.

 

I don't think the text allows us to answer conclusively either of those questions. It could well be possible to avoid the dues of wills - Mesaana, after all, was arrogant and underestimated Egwene.

 

Also please consider that the large part of Egwene's success over Mesaana was the circumstances of the fight, that is: Mesaana was a source of corruption and evil in the White Tower. Egwene felt that, as the Amyrlin, she represents the huge institution and power for the Light which allowed her to prevail over Mesaana. In other words, Egwene felt she was rightfully defending her home and the organization she was responsible for and which she embodied against the enemy which, she was sure, was "an insect" compared to the glory and greatness of the White Tower. Egwene's personal, already considerable willpower was boosted by her feeling of being a part of a huge whole, in comparision to which Mesaana was an insect who stupidly tried to damage something which surpassed her and which Egwene, the rightful Amyrlin, embodied in the duel.

 

If, strictly hypothetically, Egwene was to fight Perrin in TAR, she would not have this advantage. Perrin would not be trying to corrupt or damage the White Tower. On the contrary, I think it would be Perrin who would have the advantage of being "at home, in a rightful place". That would boost Perrin's willpower, while Egwene would have to rely just on herself.

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Do you honestly think now that Egwene has used her 'I am Amyrlin and 3000 years old, the rep of all there is' willpower that she'll just forget about it.

 

I think not, Egwene just got a whole lot stronger in TAR and she will research/practice and use it to the best of her ability in the future. Recallthat in TSR, when she was fumbling her way through but still managed to change Amy's clad state to nakedness that Amys was floored by it. Egwene also said that she had to draw on the Power to do it.

 

I think we are going to see some amazing feats by Egwene using a combination of both willpower and Power (at least drawing heavily on it whilst willing something to become reality) in the future.

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