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Dreggs Morlock

Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

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I really hope there's more to TaR than the fight with Isam and the retrieval of the last Dreamspike from the BT.

We see a lot of TaR action, a huge amount of training for Egwene and Perrin, and some other people, Dreamwalkers or not.

We also know that wolves will fight in the Last Battle, and in the real world they will not be able to do much against Trollocs, Forsaken and Dreadlords. In TaR on the other hand...

The Pit of Doom is presented several time in the book, as the inside of a volcano, but the sky is not the same as the one outside the mountain, and is very close to the one in TaR...clouds of different colors that are moving very fast, etc.

I also remember Verin's explanation about TaR. A world that touches every other Mirror World, and the fact that the DO can be free and trapped at the same time, etc.

Maybe the final plan to completely seal the Bore will include a seal in the real world, and another seal in TaR, one that will seal the DO in every other dimension.

And we'll see an epic fight between Perrin+wolves+Egwene+Dreamwalkers+AS with rings+Rand with a Gateway to TaR+Heroes of the Horn versus bad guys.

That will be just epic. And of course it will never happen, but one can only dream.

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Perrin > Egwene in TAR.

 

3 ta'verin: Greatest channeler = Rand. Greatest general = Mat. Soon to be the Greatest in TAR = Perrin (if he defeats Slayer).

 

 

Egwene is limited because she has set limits on herself (e.g. balefire, Moghedien/best Forsaken in TAR sets limits on herself, thus she could not free herself from Nyaneve/a'dam in TAR) and typically her attacks are slower.

 

Egwene attack speed = function(channeling, thought).

 

Perrin attack speed = function (thought).

 

According to Perrin, the wolves rule TAR.

 

Egwene would get annihilated against Perrin, lets not bring in the King/Slayer yet. Egwene would not last a few seconds against a thing such as the Slayer.

 

 

Channeling in TAR = great disadvantage, unless one happens to be Avienhda's future children (channeling at the speed of thought).

 

People used to channeling in the real world, first instinct is to use is Weaves in TAR.

Edited by Entreri

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Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

 

 

Egwene will not last a few seconds against Slayer. Not even balefire would work on him, he would kill her before she could blink.

 

Hopper or wolves > Wise Ones. One concrete example we have is that Amy's tried to leave the dome that surronded them in TAR, she could not. Hopper and other wolves were able to penetrate the dome, even Perrin eventually did.

 

Wolves have been in TAR since essentially the beginning of the Wheel and all the knowledge is passed on from one wolf to another.

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Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

 

 

Egwene will not last a few seconds against Slayer. Not even balefire would work on him, he would kill her before she could blink.

 

Hopper or wolves > Wise Ones. One concrete example we have is that Amy's tried to leave the dome that surronded them in TAR, she could not. Hopper and other wolves were able to penetrate the dome, even Perrin eventually did.

 

Wolves have been in TAR since essentially the beginning of the Wheel and all the knowledge is passed on from one wolf to another.

 

How could I possibly argue with such a preponderance of evidence?

 

I think a smugly put "nuh uuuhhh" should be enough to counter-balance your carefully crafted contention.

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This is my first post on this site, but it seems to me that this battle is being argued differently than I would argue or even think about it – to me it comes down to character personalities. Reading all of your arguments got me thinking about how each of the characters would think about this argument and what they would say

 

Egwene:

She is a Hermoine-esk type character, in that she has to be the best at everything. She considers not being the best as a failure. It isn’t so much that she has to be better than everyone else (I doubt she ever even thinks or compares herself really to other people); it is just that if she isn’t better then she feels like she failed because internally she “knows” she is better. She is very intrinsically motivated and always has to succeed for the sake of succeeding (I understand her because this is my personally type also).

 

Perrin:

Is much more laid back and as such, I don’t think he could careless who is better between them. He would probably answer right off the bat that it was Egwene (if he was aware of her full training etc). Perrin doesn’t have the desire or drive to be the best for the sake of being the best. He is driven to do what needs to be done to secure the safety of his family then his people then whatever else is left.

 

So I can see Egwene studying, practicing and beating Perrin in a contest if it is only Egwene versus Perrin. If somehow Perrin found out that his family and his people (2 rivers folk) are in grave danger and he is the only hope against the danger of the EGWENE (for arguments sake), then I do not think there is a chance in hell that Egwene could beat Perrin.

 

Perrin is the human Ogier – it takes a lot to rile him up but once he puts the long handle on his Axe then it is best for people to run. You guys have probably heard the saying that soldiers fight wars not for their country or other stuff but for their buddy in the Foxhole next to them. In levels of dedication and determination; fighting for family trumps (and greatly trumps) fighting for the greater good or for “people” in general. IMHO same will hold true in strength of wills – Protecting family strength of will > Amyrlin strength of will.

 

So it all comes down to the question of what is Perrin fighting for: himself or just to fight and Egwene wins every time. Fighting for Faile or his family and Egwene doesn’t stand a chance.

 

P.s. I don’t really like Perrin either btw, well not until he decided to grow up when he forged his hammer.

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Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

 

 

Egwene will not last a few seconds against Slayer. Not even balefire would work on him, he would kill her before she could blink.

 

Hopper or wolves > Wise Ones. One concrete example we have is that Amy's tried to leave the dome that surronded them in TAR, she could not. Hopper and other wolves were able to penetrate the dome, even Perrin eventually did.

 

Wolves have been in TAR since essentially the beginning of the Wheel and all the knowledge is passed on from one wolf to another.

 

How could I possibly argue with such a preponderance of evidence?

 

I think a smugly put "nuh uuuhhh" should be enough to counter-balance your carefully crafted contention.

 

Now you think Egwene can defeat the Slayer as well? How amusing. Akin to Egwene having a sword fight with Lan or out general Mat or out fight Rand with the Power.

 

Weaves would be completely useless against the Slayer, who is essentially a creature of TAR. Before Egwene figures this out, she certainly would be dead against the Slayer.

 

The Slayer is a creature of TAR (presumably there 24/7), a "Lion" as the wolves call him. Egwene will be more like a "rabbit".

 

The Wolves and Perrin are used to testing their mental prowess against human nightmares in TAR = only thing that could destroy that ter'angreal. Slayer certainly did not have much difficulty overcoming nightmares in TAR.

 

The Wise One Bair for instance could have killed her via sneak attack. Egwene never saw her and Bair called her "foolish child" and that her pattern is obvious.

 

Egwene has no chance whatsoever. The much more experienced Moghdien or Lanfear would die against the Slayer.

 

 

 

Being a channeler = a massive disadvantage in TAR against a being like the Slayer, or Perrin and the Wolves.

Edited by Entreri

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I really hope there's more to TaR than the fight with Isam and the retrieval of the last Dreamspike from the BT.

We see a lot of TaR action, a huge amount of training for Egwene and Perrin, and some other people, Dreamwalkers or not.

We also know that wolves will fight in the Last Battle, and in the real world they will not be able to do much against Trollocs, Forsaken and Dreadlords. In TaR on the other hand...

The Pit of Doom is presented several time in the book, as the inside of a volcano, but the sky is not the same as the one outside the mountain, and is very close to the one in TaR...clouds of different colors that are moving very fast, etc.

I also remember Verin's explanation about TaR. A world that touches every other Mirror World, and the fact that the DO can be free and trapped at the same time, etc.

Maybe the final plan to completely seal the Bore will include a seal in the real world, and another seal in TaR, one that will seal the DO in every other dimension.

And we'll see an epic fight between Perrin+wolves+Egwene+Dreamwalkers+AS with rings+Rand with a Gateway to TaR+Heroes of the Horn versus bad guys.

That will be just epic. And of course it will never happen, but one can only dream.

 

YOU JUST GAVE ME A GREAT IDEA.

 

In the real world, wolves die by the thousands against the seemingly endless trolloc hordes. BUT, each one slain join perrin's battle in TAR against slayer!.

 

eventually, slayer is killed by a mountain of wolves.

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Agree 100% if TAR is all about belief then Perrin will always win, as he sees TAR as his domain. He does things with barely a thought that Egwene thinks are impossable.

 

Don't think we'll see many pro Egwene views in this thread.

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Agree 100% if TAR is all about belief then Perrin will always win, as he sees TAR as his domain. He does things with barely a thought that Egwene thinks are impossable.

 

Don't think we'll see many pro Egwene views in this thread.

 

Well, I think Brandon's pro Egwene opinion outweighs a lot of yours, so I'm not too worried about that.

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Agree 100% if TAR is all about belief then Perrin will always win, as he sees TAR as his domain. He does things with barely a thought that Egwene thinks are impossable.

 

Don't think we'll see many pro Egwene views in this thread.

 

Well, I think Brandon's pro Egwene opinion outweighs a lot of yours, so I'm not too worried about that.

 

He was speaking about her abilities as a Dreamer, not a Dreamwalker.

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Agree 100% if TAR is all about belief then Perrin will always win, as he sees TAR as his domain. He does things with barely a thought that Egwene thinks are impossable.

 

Don't think we'll see many pro Egwene views in this thread.

 

Well, I think Brandon's pro Egwene opinion outweighs a lot of yours, so I'm not too worried about that.

 

He was speaking about her abilities as a Dreamer, not a Dreamwalker.

 

Really?

 

Brandon

Perrin does something different. Also, Egwene was caught off guard and had been spending a lot of time lately doing other things.

Brandon

It would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod than she is because of that moment. He had just spent weeks training...

Brandon

...specifically to fight like that in Tel'aran'rhiod, while Egwene has been forced to fight other fights and let herself get a tad rusty.

Terez

haha, yeah I know. I have argued much the same against Egwene-haters. I did enjoy that moment though.

 

Cause it sure sounds like they're talking about the TAR battle specifically when he says "Egwene was caught off guard"

 

"unwise to assume that Perrin is better at Tel'aran'rhiod" is pretty definitive, that's not about prophetic dreaming

 

and "He had just spend weeks training specifically to fight like that in TAR" is obviously not about dreaming.

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Wasn't Egwene in TAR to battle the black AS, so getting caught of guard is really pretty sloppy.

 

Brandon says its unwise to assume that that perrin is better than Egwene in TAR because of that one incedent. To me that doesn't offer a opinion on who's the best one way or another

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Agree 100% if TAR is all about belief then Perrin will always win, as he sees TAR as his domain. He does things with barely a thought that Egwene thinks are impossable.

 

Don't think we'll see many pro Egwene views in this thread.

 

Well, I think Brandon's pro Egwene opinion outweighs a lot of yours, so I'm not too worried about that.

 

When has Brandon ever said that Egwene is superior to Perrin? He's said it would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better than Egwene based off that one scene, because Egwene was rusty and distracted, and Perrin has just spent time training. I still interpret it as being "Well, OK, it kind of looks like Perrin pwns Egwene massively based on that scene, so let me try and correct that assumption." It doesn't mean Egwene is stronger than Perrin, it doesn't even mean than Perrin isn't stronger overall (just that we would be unwise to assume this was the case based purely on that scene). Personally I think they're probably about equal in skills, just have different strengths, and that BS, when confronted with the question "Doesn't that scene show that Perrin's better in TAR?" (words to that effect, I know that's paraphrased) didn't want that impression to be given off by that scene. I could be wrong of course. Its very unlikely that we'll find out, since unless one of them is turned to the Dark in the last book (in which case, yeah, I could definitely see them fighting as the two TAR heavyweights of the main cast), which I think unlikely- we've had ample oppurtunity for this to happen to both of them in the series so far- its much more likely they'll team up in TAR to defeat other enemies there.

 

And when Brandon says "Dreaming is Egwene's thing", isn't he referring to a comment about whether or not Rand is a Dreamer?

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Agree 100% if TAR is all about belief then Perrin will always win, as he sees TAR as his domain. He does things with barely a thought that Egwene thinks are impossable.

 

Don't think we'll see many pro Egwene views in this thread.

 

Well, I think Brandon's pro Egwene opinion outweighs a lot of yours, so I'm not too worried about that.

 

When has Brandon ever said that Egwene is superior to Perrin? He's said it would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better than Egwene based off that one scene, because Egwene was rusty and distracted, and Perrin has just spent time training. I still interpret it as being "Well, OK, it kind of looks like Perrin pwns Egwene massively based on that scene, so let me try and correct that assumption." It doesn't mean Egwene is stronger than Perrin, it doesn't even mean than Perrin isn't stronger overall (just that we would be unwise to assume this was the case based purely on that scene). Personally I think they're probably about equal in skills, just have different strengths, and that BS, when confronted with the question "Doesn't that scene show that Perrin's better in TAR?" (words to that effect, I know that's paraphrased) didn't want that impression to be given off by that scene. I could be wrong of course. Its very unlikely that we'll find out, since unless one of them is turned to the Dark in the last book (in which case, yeah, I could definitely see them fighting as the two TAR heavyweights of the main cast), which I think unlikely- we've had ample oppurtunity for this to happen to both of them in the series so far- its much more likely they'll team up in TAR to defeat other enemies there.

 

And when Brandon says "Dreaming is Egwene's thing", isn't he referring to a comment about whether or not Rand is a Dreamer?

 

Yes he is. I agree with what you said and add that, while who has the greatest potential is in my opinion unknown (therefore it would be unwise to assume that Perrin is better based on that moment), I would say that currently Perrin has the advantage in terms of fighting in TAR (due to him training like hell before his fight against Slayer, and to Egwene having gotten rusty).

Edited by Master Ablar

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Perrin mastered the wolves' instinctive way of forcing his will on the reality around him. However, he has yet a long way to go in terms of creativity.

Egwene has no shortage of will power, but she still relies on channeling which is totally unnecessary in TAR, and she's even less creative then Perrin. However, Egwene is always the dedicated student, once she's aware of her weaknesses and works to correct them.

 

In a clear confrontation of will -- same as against Messana -- there's no way for Perrin to win.

In fighting a battle slayer style -- relying on knowledge of TAR and creativity -- Perrin has an edge for now... but I think not for long.

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I think a will verses will battle would be much different them her fight with Messana. She would remind Perrin of all she gained and Perrin would remind her of all she lost for those gains. As Rand or Mat said to the other in FoH she has gone the furthest from home and misses it the least. But I think she just won't admit how much she misses it the way Nyn does.

 

And as Morgase said , "When you are going to dance with a ta'veren be sure you know the proper steps." How many times has she been put off balance by Rand since Tear, and even with the few days warning and Mat not expecting her to be leading in Salidar she was still rather confonded by Mat's presence.

 

I don't think she would stand up to to Perrin's ta'verenness any better. And if they did do a will verses will battle it would be because the pattern decided it had to happen.

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Well this has been an interesting discussion to read. :)

 

It's natural, probably, that the question "who's better in TAR?" has been approached from the angle "who would win in a fight?" between Egwene and Perrin. I think either could win. As others have mentioned, the circumstances and psychology of the situation would play a big part if they ever had one big confrontation (whatever result serves the story best would decide the victor.) If they were "friendly rivals" sparring for sport every now and then, as they stand right now I think the rivalry would go in Egwene's favor.

 

Perrin's strengths as a stalker and a fighter have been discussed quite a bit, and yeah, he's good enough to keep pace with Slayer. That's "Best of Age Tier" right there. However, Egwene's ability to channel has been downplayed quite a bit, and I don't think it should be. The idea "thought is faster than weaves" doesn't remove channelling's huge advantage, it just means that between the two options of channelling a fireball and imagining someone enveloped in fire, you go with the second (especially if they're looking right at you or can sense you channelling.) Oddly, Perrin can't sense channelling but can sense attempts to change TAR, and is strong enough to wave them off. So fireballs to the face are in general less useful for Egwene, but there are millions of other things that can be done with channelling that haven't been shown to be possible using TAR skills alone. For example, any weave that's tied off and triggers on a condition - wards, traps, etc. There's nothing to tell us that Perrin (or any non-channeller TAR expert) would be able to tell that a weave is in place in an area. Of course, Perrin reacted to the bar of balefire - he's fast, but not instant. If that BA (I forgot which) didn't feel the need to gesticulate her weaves, he would have been toast. So surprise attacks still work (fireball to the back of the face!) and as far as we can tell OP traps can be undetectable and fast enough to be impossible to counter on reaction.

 

Also, weaves don't require concentration (invisibility, false walls, illusory clones, etc. are better with the OP.) Egwene seems almost prodigious at maintaining a large number of weaves (was it seventeen to impress the novices in the Tower?) so she might be able to multitask at a superhuman level - still, TAR effects require some amount of focus and can be dismissed. Egwene can tie off an unlimited number of useful weaves and spend her attention on other things. Egwene is aware of the limitations of channelling in TAR, which just makes her more likely to use it effectively, and being a channeller in every day life has given her a type of lateral thinking Perrin doesn't have. She's constantly aware of the utility of using air as a platform, or making it rain indoors just because it's pleasant. This mindset in and of itself gives Egwene an extra edge in TAR, even when not using the OP.

 

If they were to duel, I don't think strength of will would come up as an issue. That's relevant when there's a direct confrontation over control of the Dream. Egwene has seen how firmly in command of himself Perrin is, and she has better strategies to try. That said, Perrin doesn't fight like Mesaana or Egwene. I'd love to see them duke it out specifically because I wouldn't expect it to be a simple back-and-forth of "you're on fire!" "no, YOU'RE on fire!", or Toriyama teleport loops (seriously? "Teleport" triggers the spell-check?)

 

I'd imagine a drawn-out game of cat-and-mouse (wolf-and-cat?) like with Slayer, only Egwene doesn't have to be present to mount her offense and can leave a nasty surprise behind every time she shifts, set to go off if he gets within range to track her destination by scent. The threat of rigged decoys and duplicates pushes Perrin into stalking from range, where his eyesight is still keen but he can't use his scent to identify body-doubles as fake. This leaves him with the bow as a primary weapon (which is like a sniper rifle in TAR,) firing at figures he must assume to be fake and shifting away instantly to see if he can locate from where she's counter-attacking. I don't even know what he'd do if he entered a room with twenty Egwenes in it (or worse, Aybaras.) It's an interesting mechanic, she has a boatload of gimmicks, but he only needs one clear shot. He's highly resistant to damage and has the advantage in mobility and tracking, but can't let himself be surprised or tricked. I can imagine both of them getting bored or waking up before a winner is decided, if they act cautiously enough.

 

Anyway, rather than fight, I'd love to see them have a chance to "play" in TAR, and really show off. I like the image of Perrin leaping gracefully from a parapet, intending to stick an elegant landing on all fours as Young Bull in front of a startled Egwene, falling flat on his human face thanks to a startled Egwene (no character preference implied, I just find it amusing.)

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You have very good points about channeling, Swithin.

 

Anyway, rather than fight, I'd love to see them have a chance to "play" in TAR, and really show off. I like the image of Perrin leaping gracefully from a parapet, intending to stick an elegant landing on all fours as Young Bull in front of a startled Egwene, falling flat on his human face thanks to a startled Egwene (no character preference implied, I just find it amusing.)

 

I would like to see them work together to fight off the Shadow in TAR. Perrin with his wolf-like mastery of it, Egwene with her Power-enhanced skills and Wise One knowledge. Now that would be an epic battle.

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I would say Egwene is better at TAR as she has been taught better...Perrin is probably better at fighting in TAR right now as his training is only about that. If Egwene trains to fight in TAR then she would be superior to Perrin as she has better over all knowledge.

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Mogh turns Birgitte into a child and Nyn finds it too difficult to undo herself even after she has Mogh collared. That's the type of stuff Egwene could do that Perrin has not, he's all about his own actions, not about the big picture. And the big picture is way more powerful than popping in and out and hitting someone.

 

Rahvin attempts to make Rand just fade out of existence while they're there in the flesh, Perrin has never done anything like that. And while Perrin could unmake Egwene's weaves, it's much more difficult to unmake things done mentally by others in TAR. Weaves would require no mental struggle to dissipate cause they are effectively "real" or as real as all the other reflections that are easily manipulated. So that's really not that impressive at all.

 

I mean, a good example of the difference would probably be that Perrin followed slayer. The real TAR pros just "lock" people where they want them. Mogh and the wise ones and such. You can't poof away, or even wake yourself up once they hold you there. Even Elayne and Nyn learn how to do that in TFoH.

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The more we try to apply Egwene versus Perrin tactics, the more it is apparent that there is not a whole of information on how good Egwene is near the end of ToM. We see her plotting, using TAR as a meeting spot, and then winning a battle of wills with Messie. But we have had chapter after chapter of Perrin getting ready for the big show down, as it were. We also see Egwene realizing exactly what BS pointed out: she is rusty, and too quick to lean on channeling rather than using her skill over TAR. How can you REALLY be so sure that Perrin has the goods?

 

Slayer might be thrown into the same camp as Egwene.... when was the last time he was truly challenged in TAR? Perrin continually surprised him; would Egwene have the same reaction? I see Egwene quickly trying to overwhelm Slayer with her "all that", and if he survives, the battle getting it on. I also expect Slayer to remove himself from said battle if he does not have direct orders to kill Egwene. The battle between Egwene and Slayer would be completely different from the Perrin/Slayer battle in ToM... but just as awesome.

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correction: Nynaeve and Elayne learned how to do this with no interruptions or danger. Holding someone who doesn't want to stay gets just a wee bit tougher when someone is trying to take your life.

 

I'm not saying Egwene won't end up stronger in the world of dreams. I'm saying the matrix style fight he was in with Slayer makes it more than a bit tougher to hold someone in place like that. I don't know if Perrin ever considered it or not; I rather doubt it since wolf fights/hunts tend to be mobile. I have not the slightest doubt that he could do it if he does consider it, though. If Egwene, say, were able to do it to him, I think he would figure it out in pretty short order. His ability to alter TAR is probably equal to hers, after all.

 

My personal thought would boil down to Egwene probably having a bit better overall control than Perrin, but Perrin being a better fighter, more agile in attack and in defense; they both fall behind the Wise Ones, who have far more battle experience in general just from being Aiel. Egwene, I would imagine, will eventually surpass him as Perrin mostly seems to view the wolf dream as a means to an end and not an end in itself, so I don't think his training in it will continue to be quite so intense once the last battle is over, whereas I think Egwene, especially with her longer life span, will continue to work at it to try to fully master it to the ultimate extent of her ability.

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Mogh turns Birgitte into a child and Nyn finds it too difficult to undo herself even after she has Mogh collared. That's the type of stuff Egwene could do that Perrin has not, he's all about his own actions, not about the big picture. And the big picture is way more powerful than popping in and out and hitting someone.

 

Rahvin attempts to make Rand just fade out of existence while they're there in the flesh, Perrin has never done anything like that. And while Perrin could unmake Egwene's weaves, it's much more difficult to unmake things done mentally by others in TAR. Weaves would require no mental struggle to dissipate cause they are effectively "real" or as real as all the other reflections that are easily manipulated. So that's really not that impressive at all.

 

I mean, a good example of the difference would probably be that Perrin followed slayer. The real TAR pros just "lock" people where they want them. Mogh and the wise ones and such. You can't poof away, or even wake yourself up once they hold you there. Even Elayne and Nyn learn how to do that in TFoH.

 

Perrin may not be able to do it to others, but what makes you think they can do it to him? He seems to have complete mastery of himself.

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I think Perrin is the stronger because of his style of fighting. Egwene's seem just to see who has the strongest will, were as Perrin's is more imaginitive ie; birds as warnings, replicas ect. Also though I have no way of noing I can't see Egwene even atemping to heal TAR as Perrin tries to in ToM epilogue.

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