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Egwene/the Aes Sedai


Luckers
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The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Agreed! That regularly irritates me. How can she still think the White Tower is the end-all, be-all for a guiding force in the world when Aes Sedai have wronged Rand so many times. It seems like she should just take a step back and view the world from someone else's POV. I actually don't dislike Egwene. I think that a lot of the negative emotions stem from her seeming disloyalty toward her friends. She puts this organization in front of the individual, which is a good quality in a leader, but not an overly likeable or relatable one. I personally prefer a character who will at least consider damning the world for the people she loves (Nynaeve), but Egwene is almost turning into the female Galad. Respectable, great leader...not that personable. I think she works for what she is--the Amyrlin. Not the change-the-world and shake things up character that Nynaeve and Rand types represent, but a strong leader and capable of bringing a falling organization together.

 

Maybe you didn't see, but in the two posts above yours, it is explained the post you agree with is based on nothing.

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That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

 

I'm in the middle of reading ToM again bc I don't remember enough about it, but that's a good quote that I hadn't considered. And I think it's fair, from her point of view, to question the things Rand does when she has (rightfully so) thought he was mostly insane for a while, and he has all these hit-or-miss plans. Under the same MO or not, though, Egwene seems fairly convinced that the WT should still be the main power in the world, rather than her knowledge of the WOs, the Kin, the Windfinders, and even the BT leading her to question that notion (unless I missed it or haven't come across it again) and that kind of grates on me.

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I'm nowhere near my books suttree so I don't have the ability to trawl for quotes but after salidar and before rand goes to tar valor she mentions him needing to be guided by her or the tower.

 

I might post again later... You have an interesting view but you've yet to sell me on it completely

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That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

 

I'm in the middle of reading ToM again bc I don't remember enough about it, but that's a good quote that I hadn't considered. And I think it's fair, from her point of view, to question the things Rand does when she has (rightfully so) thought he was mostly insane for a while, and he has all these hit-or-miss plans. Under the same MO or not, though, Egwene seems fairly convinced that the WT should still be the main power in the world, rather than her knowledge of the WOs, the Kin, the Windfinders, and even the BT leading her to question that notion (unless I missed it or haven't come across it again) and that kind of grates on me.

 

When you are going back through ToM make sure to pay special attention during "An Invitation". IMO the channeler exchange program will go along way in revolutionizing how the different groups interact with each other.

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Dude, seriously, lighten up.

 

You mean "I can't find anything to tell you she is arrogant, but I will not stop hating her"?

 

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

She had no control over that Aes Sedai, and what they did to him. And Rand himself knows too that Egwene is different from most Aes Sedai. So I don't see a problem. By the way, can you quote the last time she thinks of him needing her advice, except about breaking the seals (because I'm sure that he must NOT do that. I can't find it now, but Terez has written a pretty awesome, backed up well, theory about it on Theoryland. Maybe she can link you (if she sees this thread)?)?

 

She holds Rand responsible for the bonding of aes sedai by ashaman, but that was not done on his orders, he didn't even know about it until Logain told him. However Egwene still believes he is responsible, and rightfully so in my opinion, because they are his men and therefore he is responsible for them and their actions. At least the actions of the ashaman are justifiable in that they were attempting to stop any bloodshed, whereas the actions of the aes sedai sent by Elaida are inexcusable. Sure Egwene may not have ordered it, and at the time she was not even responsible for those aes sedai, but she is now. In her own words she's inherited that responsibility from Elaida. She's got to deal with the mess Elaida left behind, and that includes Rand's kiddnaping and beating. Put it this way: while Egwene as a person owes absolutely no apology to Rand for this, Egwene the Amyrlin, as leader of the White Tower most certainly owes a huge apology to Rand on behalf of her orginasation. It might not be fair but that's how it is, and how she deals with it will affect how readers feel about her.

 

That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

 

I'm in the middle of reading ToM again bc I don't remember enough about it, but that's a good quote that I hadn't considered. And I think it's fair, from her point of view, to question the things Rand does when she has (rightfully so) thought he was mostly insane for a while, and he has all these hit-or-miss plans. Under the same MO or not, though, Egwene seems fairly convinced that the WT should still be the main power in the world, rather than her knowledge of the WOs, the Kin, the Windfinders, and even the BT leading her to question that notion (unless I missed it or haven't come across it again) and that kind of grates on me.

 

Well Nyneave told Egwene everything when she returned to the WT, so Egwene should be aware that Rand is not insane at all at this point. Unless of course she rules out Nyneave's opinion because she thinks that Nyneave is affected by Rand's taveren influence. Nonetheless she should consider the posibility that Nyneave is not being influenced and is actually quite truthful. If she has failed to consider that, then she has in my opinion partly failed in her duty as Amyrlin, since the leader of the WT should consider all posibilities.

Edited by Master Ablar
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That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

 

I'm in the middle of reading ToM again bc I don't remember enough about it, but that's a good quote that I hadn't considered. And I think it's fair, from her point of view, to question the things Rand does when she has (rightfully so) thought he was mostly insane for a while, and he has all these hit-or-miss plans. Under the same MO or not, though, Egwene seems fairly convinced that the WT should still be the main power in the world, rather than her knowledge of the WOs, the Kin, the Windfinders, and even the BT leading her to question that notion (unless I missed it or haven't come across it again) and that kind of grates on me.

 

When you are going back through ToM make sure to pay special attention during "An Invitation". IMO the channeler exchange program will go along way in revolutionizing how the different groups interact with each other.

 

I agree that was definitely a big step in the right direction. Sure it would have been nice if there was no intention at all to gain leadership over all three groups, and they were all just going to play nice, but let's be realistic here: that was never going to happen between three groups like the aes sedai, the wise ones and the sea folk. And I don't think there's any doubt that the windfinders and wise ones will be trying just as hard to gain a little influence over the other groups. In the end I still find a nice change in mentality, because, you know, everyone is actually trying to work together for once.

 

Now an even bigger step would have been to set something up with the ashaman (I'm sure they could figure something out). However considering the current situation of the BT, I think it may be a good thing for now that Egwene is rather biased against men who can channel (and all men really, but let's stay out of that.)

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I've been rereading ACOS in last few days and came across quite a few passages, which are unflattering to say the least for Egwene.

 

ACOS, Ch.9

 

Egwene did not entirely trust Alanna. The woman did extremely odd things at times, maybe impetuously and maybe with some deeper motive. Egwene would not put it past her to find a way into Rand’s bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her.

We see here her usual "high" opinion of Rand. It's hilarious in a way, given that Rand managed to resist seduction by stunning beauties like Lanfear and Berelain.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

The Wise Ones wanted to guide Rand no less than Elaida or Romanda or Lelaine, or very likely any other Aes Sedai. Of course, they only wanted to direct the Car’a’carn in a way that was best for the Aiel, yet those sisters wanted to direct the Dragon Reborn toward what was best for the world, as they saw it. She did not spare herself. Helping Rand, keeping him from putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery, those meant guiding him, too. Only, I’m right, she reminded herself. Whatever I do is as much for his own good as for anybody else’s. None of the others ever think about what’s right for him.

Yeah, Egwene, you are the only Aes Sedai who ever think about what's right for Rand, Nynaeve and Elayne never do that. And all Wise Ones don't care about Rand as a person at all. :rolleyes:

 

And, of course, thinking that only through her guidance Rand could avoid "putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery", is both arrogant and wrong. Even after the terrible abuse he suffered after Galina's party captured him, Rand still restrained himself from declaring a war on Elaida's faction or something similar which would've ruined any chance of him working together with the Aes Sedai.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

With Nicola and Areina’s bowstrings dampened a little more, it was time to turn her attention to Rand. Unfortunately, finding his dreams would be as useless as finding an Aes Sedai’s. He shielded his somewhat as they did theirs, although apparently a man’s shield differed from a woman’s. An Aes Sedai’s shield was a crystal carapace, a seamless sphere woven of Spirit, but however transparent it appeared, it might as well have been steel. She could not recall how many fruitless hours she had frittered away trying to peer through his.

What a great friend Egwene is, dedicating so much of her time trying to find a way to spy on Rand's dreams. A silly man like him doesn't deserve privacy even in his dreams, Egwene must be at hand to "guide" him there too.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

She had considered trying to find Nicola’s dreams, and Areina’s. Once she unearthed them, she knew exactly how to sink the fear of the Light into their bones, and she did not give a fig that every bit of it was proscribed. Practicality sent her here instead, not fear of the forbidden. She had done what was not done before, and she was certain she would again should it become necessary. Do what you must, then pay the price for it, was what she had been taught, by the same women who had marked off those forbidden areas. It was refusal to admit the debt, refusal to pay, that often turned necessity to evil. But even if that pair were asleep, locating someone’s dreams the first time was arduous at best, without guarantees. Days of efforts—nights of it, rather—were more likely to deliver nothing.

Here Egwene is thinking how she's ready to break the rules she'd been taught by the WO and scare Nicola and Areina so they won't reveal that Egwene lied about being a full Aes Sedai. This means Egwene's refusing to admit she's broken the rules and to pay the price for her previous actions. By her own admittance in the bolded sentence, this is evil. Yet the only reason she didn't do it was because she couldn't locate their dreams.

 

Not to mention how hypocritical her outrage at Nicola and Areina's attempt at blackmailing her is, considering that Egwene did exactly the same with Nisao, Myrele and Sheriam's group of Aes Sedai.

Edited by David Selig
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I've been rereading ACOS in last few days and came across quite a few passages, which are unflattering to say the least for Egwene.

 

ACOS, Ch.9

 

Egwene did not entirely trust Alanna. The woman did extremely odd things at times, maybe impetuously and maybe with some deeper motive. Egwene would not put it past her to find a way into Rand’s bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her.

We see here her usual "high" opinion of Rand. It's hilarious in a way, given that Rand managed to resist seduction by stunning beauties like Lanfear and Berelain.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

The Wise Ones wanted to guide Rand no less than Elaida or Romanda or Lelaine, or very likely any other Aes Sedai. Of course, they only wanted to direct the Car’a’carn in a way that was best for the Aiel, yet those sisters wanted to direct the Dragon Reborn toward what was best for the world, as they saw it. She did not spare herself. Helping Rand, keeping him from putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery, those meant guiding him, too. Only, I’m right, she reminded herself. Whatever I do is as much for his own good as for anybody else’s. None of the others ever think about what’s right for him.

Yeah, Egwene, you are the only Aes Sedai who ever think about what's right for Rand, Nynaeve and Elayne never do that. And all Wise Ones don't care about Rand as a person at all. :rolleyes:

 

And, of course, thinking that only through her guidance Rand could avoid "putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery", is both arrogant and wrong. Even after the terrible abuse he suffered after Galina's party captured him, Rand still restrained himself from declaring a war on Elaida's faction or something similar which would've ruined any chance of him working together with the Aes Sedai.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

With Nicola and Areina’s bowstrings dampened a little more, it was time to turn her attention to Rand. Unfortunately, finding his dreams would be as useless as finding an Aes Sedai’s. He shielded his somewhat as they did theirs, although apparently a man’s shield differed from a woman’s. An Aes Sedai’s shield was a crystal carapace, a seamless sphere woven of Spirit, but however transparent it appeared, it might as well have been steel. She could not recall how many fruitless hours she had frittered away trying to peer through his.

What a great friend Egwene is, dedicating so much of her time trying to find a way to spy on Rand's dreams. A silly man like him doesn't deserve privacy even in his dreams, Egwene must be at hand to "guide" him there too.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

She had considered trying to find Nicola’s dreams, and Areina’s. Once she unearthed them, she knew exactly how to sink the fear of the Light into their bones, and she did not give a fig that every bit of it was proscribed. Practicality sent her here instead, not fear of the forbidden. She had done what was not done before, and she was certain she would again should it become necessary. Do what you must, then pay the price for it, was what she had been taught, by the same women who had marked off those forbidden areas. It was refusal to admit the debt, refusal to pay, that often turned necessity to evil. But even if that pair were asleep, locating someone’s dreams the first time was arduous at best, without guarantees. Days of efforts—nights of it, rather—were more likely to deliver nothing.

Here Egwene is thinking how she's ready to break the rules she'd been taught by the WO and scare Nicola and Areina so they won't reveal that Egwene lied about being a full Aes Sedai. This means Egwene's refusing to admit she's broken the rules and to pay the price for her previous actions. By her own admittance in the bolded sentence, this is evil. Yet the only reason she didn't do it was because she couldn't locate their dreams.

 

Not to mention how hypocritical her outrage at Nicola and Areina's attempt at blackmailing her is, considering that Egwene did exactly the same with Nisao, Myrele and Sheriam's group of Aes Sedai.

 

Personally I think that the first quote you gave was more evidence of the low opinion she has of men in general rather than Rand in particular. But in any case yeah, not very flattering for Egwene.

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That's my thing too, and I think it's Brandon's fault. TGS and TofM are litered with the compromisation of one character to uplift another. Consider Joline and Mat's little spat in tGS... Joline, who has lived over a hundred years in a world with horses, is suddenly an idiot about horse travel so Mat can set her down. Cadsuane, Merise and Flinn suffer this to Rand, Adelorna and countless other Aes Sedai suffer this to Egwene, and then when Egwene and Rand meet Rand is the higher character and so Egwene becomes the idiot.

 

I felt that too. Joline is Green Ajah too with a good knowledge of war (according to Mat!) and something was wrong with the Flinn scene too.

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That happened all the time in the previous books too. Egwene's whole Salidar storyline is basically Romanda, Lelaine and most other Aes Sedai being idiots so Egwene can look good in comparison. Elaida, who looked reasonably competent in the first books, became a complete retard later on for the same reason. The novices in the Tower in KoD were behaving like 8 year olds so Egwene can show leadership by giving them trite advice.

 

And it's not just Egwene, there are plently of examples with the other characters too.

Edited by David Selig
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Well Nyneave told Egwene everything when she returned to the WT, so Egwene should be aware that Rand is not insane at all at this point. Unless of course she rules out Nyneave's opinion because she thinks that Nyneave is affected by Rand's taveren influence. Nonetheless she should consider the posibility that Nyneave is not being influenced and is actually quite truthful. If she has failed to consider that, then she has in my opinion partly failed in her duty as Amyrlin, since the leader of the WT should consider all posibilities.

 

You're right, I was just referring to the "Amrylin's Anger" scene at the start of ToM where she asks if he has come for the WT's guidance....

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I've been rereading ACOS in last few days and came across quite a few passages, which are unflattering to say the least for Egwene.

 

ACOS, Ch.9

 

Egwene did not entirely trust Alanna. The woman did extremely odd things at times, maybe impetuously and maybe with some deeper motive. Egwene would not put it past her to find a way into Rand’s bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her.

We see here her usual "high" opinion of Rand. It's hilarious in a way, given that Rand managed to resist seduction by stunning beauties like Lanfear and Berelain.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

The Wise Ones wanted to guide Rand no less than Elaida or Romanda or Lelaine, or very likely any other Aes Sedai. Of course, they only wanted to direct the Car’a’carn in a way that was best for the Aiel, yet those sisters wanted to direct the Dragon Reborn toward what was best for the world, as they saw it. She did not spare herself. Helping Rand, keeping him from putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery, those meant guiding him, too. Only, I’m right, she reminded herself. Whatever I do is as much for his own good as for anybody else’s. None of the others ever think about what’s right for him.

Yeah, Egwene, you are the only Aes Sedai who ever think about what's right for Rand, Nynaeve and Elayne never do that. And all Wise Ones don't care about Rand as a person at all. :rolleyes:

 

And, of course, thinking that only through her guidance Rand could avoid "putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery", is both arrogant and wrong. Even after the terrible abuse he suffered after Galina's party captured him, Rand still restrained himself from declaring a war on Elaida's faction or something similar which would've ruined any chance of him working together with the Aes Sedai.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

With Nicola and Areina’s bowstrings dampened a little more, it was time to turn her attention to Rand. Unfortunately, finding his dreams would be as useless as finding an Aes Sedai’s. He shielded his somewhat as they did theirs, although apparently a man’s shield differed from a woman’s. An Aes Sedai’s shield was a crystal carapace, a seamless sphere woven of Spirit, but however transparent it appeared, it might as well have been steel. She could not recall how many fruitless hours she had frittered away trying to peer through his.

What a great friend Egwene is, dedicating so much of her time trying to find a way to spy on Rand's dreams. A silly man like him doesn't deserve privacy even in his dreams, Egwene must be at hand to "guide" him there too.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

She had considered trying to find Nicola’s dreams, and Areina’s. Once she unearthed them, she knew exactly how to sink the fear of the Light into their bones, and she did not give a fig that every bit of it was proscribed. Practicality sent her here instead, not fear of the forbidden. She had done what was not done before, and she was certain she would again should it become necessary. Do what you must, then pay the price for it, was what she had been taught, by the same women who had marked off those forbidden areas. It was refusal to admit the debt, refusal to pay, that often turned necessity to evil. But even if that pair were asleep, locating someone’s dreams the first time was arduous at best, without guarantees. Days of efforts—nights of it, rather—were more likely to deliver nothing.

Here Egwene is thinking how she's ready to break the rules she'd been taught by the WO and scare Nicola and Areina so they won't reveal that Egwene lied about being a full Aes Sedai. This means Egwene's refusing to admit she's broken the rules and to pay the price for her previous actions. By her own admittance in the bolded sentence, this is evil. Yet the only reason she didn't do it was because she couldn't locate their dreams.

 

Not to mention how hypocritical her outrage at Nicola and Areina's attempt at blackmailing her is, considering that Egwene did exactly the same with Nisao, Myrele and Sheriam's group of Aes Sedai.

 

I'm not sure if this was in response to my quotes, but I wasn't trying to build up weight on the "good" side that you need to counter balance. I was simply giving evidence against untrue generalizations of Egwene. So if you think these quotes suggest some general flaw in the character then spell it out so we might debate it.

 

I really don't care to debate every possible negative thought or decision she has had. You could make a giant list of these for any character. Some will be more or less damning to different people.

 

Lan wanted to kill some backforest farmer just cause the poor guy figured out Moir was Aes Sedai. Should I conclude that Lan is some cold blooded killer whose bloodlust is only tempered by Moir holding him back? No, I know the man was suggesting what he felt needed to be done to keep his oaths, and what he could do to protect those actively fighting the shadow.

 

A quick note on dreaming though. I always wished Egwene could have broken into his shield because it could have been one way for them to have talked and maybe averted a lot of problems. Maybe Egwene would even be as convinced as Nyn of his sanity if she had. I think jumping to the conclusion her motivations were in some way nefarious is unfair.

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ACOS, Ch. 10

 

The Wise Ones wanted to guide Rand no less than Elaida or Romanda or Lelaine, or very likely any other Aes Sedai. Of course, they only wanted to direct the Car’a’carn in a way that was best for the Aiel, yet those sisters wanted to direct the Dragon Reborn toward what was best for the world, as they saw it. She did not spare herself. Helping Rand, keeping him from putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery, those meant guiding him, too. Only, I’m right, she reminded herself. Whatever I do is as much for his own good as for anybody else’s. None of the others ever think about what’s right for him.

Yeah, Egwene, you are the only Aes Sedai who ever think about what's right for Rand, Nynaeve and Elayne never do that. And all Wise Ones don't care about Rand as a person at all. :rolleyes:

 

To be fair she obviously isn't including the two you mention in those that don't think about Rand's best interest. It goes without saying that she knows both of them do. As for the WOs it is made clear throughout that they will do whats best for the Aiel period.

 

I find it interesting that Egewene detractors will swear up and done that she uses her friends and cares nothing for them. Then there is a section such as this which shows that in fact she does care and people still try to put a negative spin on it.

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I find it interesting that Egewene detractors will swear up and done that she uses her friends and cares nothing for them. Then there is a section such as this which shows that in fact she does care and people still try to put a negative spin on it.

She cares , when she bothers to.I don't mean that in the sense that she forgets about them,rather in the sense that it doesn't affect her negatively.As long as it doesn't , she is quite willing to try to help.

 

Some people will find such behavior admirable. I absolutely abhor it.

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I find it interesting that Egewene detractors will swear up and done that she uses her friends and cares nothing for them. Then there is a section such as this which shows that in fact she does care and people still try to put a negative spin on it.

She cares , when she bothers to.I don't mean that in the sense that she forgets about them,rather in the sense that it doesn't affect her negatively.As long as it doesn't , she is quite willing to try to help.

 

Some people will find such behavior admirable. I absolutely abhor it.

 

What it comes down to for me...is it about effecting HER negatively, or is that she puts what she views as the greater good above all?

 

One can argue that her faith in the WT is misguided but I think she truly believes she is doing whats best to serve the greater good and help the world fight the shadow. To say she is only motivated by power as we frequently see on the boards is ludicrous.

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I've been rereading ACOS in last few days and came across quite a few passages, which are unflattering to say the least for Egwene.

 

ACOS, Ch.9

 

Egwene did not entirely trust Alanna. The woman did extremely odd things at times, maybe impetuously and maybe with some deeper motive. Egwene would not put it past her to find a way into Rand’s bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her.

We see here her usual "high" opinion of Rand. It's hilarious in a way, given that Rand managed to resist seduction by stunning beauties like Lanfear and Berelain.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

The Wise Ones wanted to guide Rand no less than Elaida or Romanda or Lelaine, or very likely any other Aes Sedai. Of course, they only wanted to direct the Car’a’carn in a way that was best for the Aiel, yet those sisters wanted to direct the Dragon Reborn toward what was best for the world, as they saw it. She did not spare herself. Helping Rand, keeping him from putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery, those meant guiding him, too. Only, I’m right, she reminded herself. Whatever I do is as much for his own good as for anybody else’s. None of the others ever think about what’s right for him.

Yeah, Egwene, you are the only Aes Sedai who ever think about what's right for Rand, Nynaeve and Elayne never do that. And all Wise Ones don't care about Rand as a person at all. :rolleyes:

 

And, of course, thinking that only through her guidance Rand could avoid "putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery", is both arrogant and wrong. Even after the terrible abuse he suffered after Galina's party captured him, Rand still restrained himself from declaring a war on Elaida's faction or something similar which would've ruined any chance of him working together with the Aes Sedai.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

With Nicola and Areina’s bowstrings dampened a little more, it was time to turn her attention to Rand. Unfortunately, finding his dreams would be as useless as finding an Aes Sedai’s. He shielded his somewhat as they did theirs, although apparently a man’s shield differed from a woman’s. An Aes Sedai’s shield was a crystal carapace, a seamless sphere woven of Spirit, but however transparent it appeared, it might as well have been steel. She could not recall how many fruitless hours she had frittered away trying to peer through his.

What a great friend Egwene is, dedicating so much of her time trying to find a way to spy on Rand's dreams. A silly man like him doesn't deserve privacy even in his dreams, Egwene must be at hand to "guide" him there too.

 

ACOS, Ch. 10

 

She had considered trying to find Nicola’s dreams, and Areina’s. Once she unearthed them, she knew exactly how to sink the fear of the Light into their bones, and she did not give a fig that every bit of it was proscribed. Practicality sent her here instead, not fear of the forbidden. She had done what was not done before, and she was certain she would again should it become necessary. Do what you must, then pay the price for it, was what she had been taught, by the same women who had marked off those forbidden areas. It was refusal to admit the debt, refusal to pay, that often turned necessity to evil. But even if that pair were asleep, locating someone’s dreams the first time was arduous at best, without guarantees. Days of efforts—nights of it, rather—were more likely to deliver nothing.

Here Egwene is thinking how she's ready to break the rules she'd been taught by the WO and scare Nicola and Areina so they won't reveal that Egwene lied about being a full Aes Sedai. This means Egwene's refusing to admit she's broken the rules and to pay the price for her previous actions. By her own admittance in the bolded sentence, this is evil. Yet the only reason she didn't do it was because she couldn't locate their dreams.

 

Not to mention how hypocritical her outrage at Nicola and Areina's attempt at blackmailing her is, considering that Egwene did exactly the same with Nisao, Myrele and Sheriam's group of Aes Sedai.

 

I'm not sure if this was in response to my quotes, but I wasn't trying to build up weight on the "good" side that you need to counter balance. I was simply giving evidence against untrue generalizations of Egwene. So if you think these quotes suggest some general flaw in the character then spell it out so we might debate it.

 

I really don't care to debate every possible negative thought or decision she has had. You could make a giant list of these for any character. Some will be more or less damning to different people.

 

Lan wanted to kill some backforest farmer just cause the poor guy figured out Moir was Aes Sedai. Should I conclude that Lan is some cold blooded killer whose bloodlust is only tempered by Moir holding him back? No, I know the man was suggesting what he felt needed to be done to keep his oaths, and what he could do to protect those actively fighting the shadow.

 

A quick note on dreaming though. I always wished Egwene could have broken into his shield because it could have been one way for them to have talked and maybe averted a lot of problems. Maybe Egwene would even be as convinced as Nyn of his sanity if she had. I think jumping to the conclusion her motivations were in some way nefarious is unfair.

 

 

 

Lan , wanting to kill someone for a logical reason is totally different than actually DOING it and failing as Egwene did in trying to find the dreams.

 

as i said before i like Egwene at times and other times i really hate her. she is who she is, deal with it.

Edited by Zeshan H
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Dude, seriously, lighten up.

 

You mean "I can't find anything to tell you she is arrogant, but I will not stop hating her"?

 

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

She had no control over that Aes Sedai, and what they did to him. And Rand himself knows too that Egwene is different from most Aes Sedai. So I don't see a problem. By the way, can you quote the last time she thinks of him needing her advice, except about breaking the seals (because I'm sure that he must NOT do that. I can't find it now, but Terez has written a pretty awesome, backed up well, theory about it on Theoryland. Maybe she can link you (if she sees this thread)?)?

 

No, I have no trouble whatsoever in finding evidence in the text that supports my view of Egwene. I have typed it all up and posted it many times; use the search feature if you're that interested. I'm not going to bother continuing with it when fangurls won't conduct an intellectually-honest debate. Not worth the effort; you won't change your view no matter how much evidence is provided.

Edited by randsc
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Dude, seriously, lighten up.

 

You mean "I can't find anything to tell you she is arrogant, but I will not stop hating her"?

 

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

She had no control over that Aes Sedai, and what they did to him. And Rand himself knows too that Egwene is different from most Aes Sedai. So I don't see a problem. By the way, can you quote the last time she thinks of him needing her advice, except about breaking the seals (because I'm sure that he must NOT do that. I can't find it now, but Terez has written a pretty awesome, backed up well, theory about it on Theoryland. Maybe she can link you (if she sees this thread)?)?

 

She holds Rand responsible for the bonding of aes sedai by ashaman, but that was not done on his orders, he didn't even know about it until Logain told him. However Egwene still believes he is responsible, and rightfully so in my opinion, because they are his men and therefore he is responsible for them and their actions. At least the actions of the ashaman are justifiable in that they were attempting to stop any bloodshed, whereas the actions of the aes sedai sent by Elaida are inexcusable. Sure Egwene may not have ordered it, and at the time she was not even responsible for those aes sedai, but she is now. In her own words she's inherited that responsibility from Elaida. She's got to deal with the mess Elaida left behind, and that includes Rand's kiddnaping and beating. Put it this way: while Egwene as a person owes absolutely no apology to Rand for this, Egwene the Amyrlin, as leader of the White Tower most certainly owes a huge apology to Rand on behalf of her orginasation. It might not be fair but that's how it is, and how she deals with it will affect how readers feel about her.

 

That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

 

I'm in the middle of reading ToM again bc I don't remember enough about it, but that's a good quote that I hadn't considered. And I think it's fair, from her point of view, to question the things Rand does when she has (rightfully so) thought he was mostly insane for a while, and he has all these hit-or-miss plans. Under the same MO or not, though, Egwene seems fairly convinced that the WT should still be the main power in the world, rather than her knowledge of the WOs, the Kin, the Windfinders, and even the BT leading her to question that notion (unless I missed it or haven't come across it again) and that kind of grates on me.

 

Well Nyneave told Egwene everything when she returned to the WT, so Egwene should be aware that Rand is not insane at all at this point. Unless of course she rules out Nyneave's opinion because she thinks that Nyneave is affected by Rand's taveren influence. Nonetheless she should consider the posibility that Nyneave is not being influenced and is actually quite truthful. If she has failed to consider that, then she has in my opinion partly failed in her duty as Amyrlin, since the leader of the WT should consider all posibilities.

 

Actually, it is not very weird that Egwene thinks Rand is insane when he wants to break the seals. I think it is not even for us. After I read a theory Terez wrote (sorry, I can't find the link), I am convinced Moridin/Ishamael lured him into it.

 

Dude, seriously, lighten up.

 

You mean "I can't find anything to tell you she is arrogant, but I will not stop hating her"?

 

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

She had no control over that Aes Sedai, and what they did to him. And Rand himself knows too that Egwene is different from most Aes Sedai. So I don't see a problem. By the way, can you quote the last time she thinks of him needing her advice, except about breaking the seals (because I'm sure that he must NOT do that. I can't find it now, but Terez has written a pretty awesome, backed up well, theory about it on Theoryland. Maybe she can link you (if she sees this thread)?)?

 

No, I have no trouble whatsoever in finding evidence in the text that supports my view of Egwene. I have typed it all up and posted it many times; use the search feature if you're that interested. I'm not going to bother continuing with it when fangurls won't conduct an intellectually-honest debate. Not worth the effort; you won't change your view no matter how much evidence is provided.

 

Is there a way you can change your view? I still don't see anything anyone said that she is arrogant that no one could give a good reason to do that. Give me something like five times she is really arrogant (after she became Amyrlin, because after she is totally different than before), and I change my view. Five, over 5000 pages. Is that so hard?

 

(i'm sure you don't mean to be personally insulting, and i'm sure leyrann won't take it that way, but he is actually not a girl. carry on.)

 

This, but I am not angry. Can happen.

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Well Nyneave told Egwene everything when she returned to the WT, so Egwene should be aware that Rand is not insane at all at this point. Unless of course she rules out Nyneave's opinion because she thinks that Nyneave is affected by Rand's taveren influence. Nonetheless she should consider the posibility that Nyneave is not being influenced and is actually quite truthful. If she has failed to consider that, then she has in my opinion partly failed in her duty as Amyrlin, since the leader of the WT should consider all posibilities.

 

You're right, I was just referring to the "Amrylin's Anger" scene at the start of ToM where she asks if he has come for the WT's guidance....

 

Oh, of course I don't have any problem with how she acted in that chapter, her reaction seems perfectly logical. I mean the dude just said he wanted to break the seals. Of course it sounds like he's out of his mind.

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What it comes down to for me...is it about effecting HER negatively, or is that she puts what she views as the greater good above all?

There a few instances where the greater good doesn't excuse her actions and others were the greater good is irrelevant to her.Take the instance with Nynaeve , or when she blackmailed to get those oaths of obedience.Some have tried to defend her actions by rationalizing her choices, even though the characters own POVs discredit any such attempts (eg: "She did it to warn Nynaeve !". )

 

One can argue that her faith in the WT is misguided but I think she truly believes she is doing whats best to serve the greater good and help the world fight the shadow. To say she is only motivated by power as we frequently see on the boards is ludicrous.

One can argue so for a lot of cases.Her believing being in the right does not make it so.Power is also one of her primary motivations, that much is clear.Her sole motivation ? Maybe not, but it's one of her primary ones.

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One can argue that her faith in the WT is misguided but I think she truly believes she is doing whats best to serve the greater good and help the world fight the shadow. To say she is only motivated by power as we frequently see on the boards is ludicrous.

One can argue so for a lot of cases.Her believing being in the right does not make it so.Power is also one of her primary motivations, that much is clear.Her sole motivation ? Maybe not, but it's one of her primary ones.

 

She says to Elaida that she would be able to say that "the White Tower is more important than she is", even if she had sworn the oaths. She believes that the WT is more important for her than her power. I think she is right about what she thinks that is important...

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Dude, seriously, lighten up.

 

You mean "I can't find anything to tell you she is arrogant, but I will not stop hating her"?

 

The thing that really annoys me about egwene is her insistence even up to the last books that rand needs to be guided by her and the white tower. Even after dumais wells. Elza and semirage, alanna's bond rape... She thinks this? She and the entire tower should be begging forgiveness from him for what aes sedai have done to him who they are expecting to sacrifice his life for them. After all egwene learnt with the wise ones etc she of all people should know that the sum or all knowledge and true guidance is not to be found in the tower alone. Rand has wise ones, ashaman, wind finders, his own aes sedai, secular types like the late herid del , royals and politicians to advise him, ..... He probably has a better spread of knowledge and wisdom from these than he could ever hope to get from Such a narrow minded and self absorbed group as the tower. That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

She had no control over that Aes Sedai, and what they did to him. And Rand himself knows too that Egwene is different from most Aes Sedai. So I don't see a problem. By the way, can you quote the last time she thinks of him needing her advice, except about breaking the seals (because I'm sure that he must NOT do that. I can't find it now, but Terez has written a pretty awesome, backed up well, theory about it on Theoryland. Maybe she can link you (if she sees this thread)?)?

 

She holds Rand responsible for the bonding of aes sedai by ashaman, but that was not done on his orders, he didn't even know about it until Logain told him. However Egwene still believes he is responsible, and rightfully so in my opinion, because they are his men and therefore he is responsible for them and their actions. At least the actions of the ashaman are justifiable in that they were attempting to stop any bloodshed, whereas the actions of the aes sedai sent by Elaida are inexcusable. Sure Egwene may not have ordered it, and at the time she was not even responsible for those aes sedai, but she is now. In her own words she's inherited that responsibility from Elaida. She's got to deal with the mess Elaida left behind, and that includes Rand's kiddnaping and beating. Put it this way: while Egwene as a person owes absolutely no apology to Rand for this, Egwene the Amyrlin, as leader of the White Tower most certainly owes a huge apology to Rand on behalf of her orginasation. It might not be fair but that's how it is, and how she deals with it will affect how readers feel about her.

 

That egwene can't realize that the tower has abdicated any right they had to guide him by virtue if what aes sedai have done to him is the height of arrogance IMO

 

Well yeah the BA and Forsaken did some messed up stuff. Elaida had her craziness maxed out under Fain's influence and with Alviarin's control made even more bad decisions. But as for Dumais Wells, don't forget Kiruna and some Salidar AS helped save him. Cads, Moraine, Siuan, Nynaeve etc have all done a great deal to help.

 

As far as Eggy knew Rand was insane and shows up proclaiming he is going to break the seals and then refuses to explain. She doesn't have the luxury of our pov when reading the books to understand his transformation. If I was her I would have offered guidance in that situation too. She understands that the WO's and others would play a role as well. Per the channeler exchange program and her thoughts in that chapter it's obvious AS are no longer going to operate under the same MO as it relates trying to control all the groups.

 

ToM

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly...if we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title."

 

 

I'm in the middle of reading ToM again bc I don't remember enough about it, but that's a good quote that I hadn't considered. And I think it's fair, from her point of view, to question the things Rand does when she has (rightfully so) thought he was mostly insane for a while, and he has all these hit-or-miss plans. Under the same MO or not, though, Egwene seems fairly convinced that the WT should still be the main power in the world, rather than her knowledge of the WOs, the Kin, the Windfinders, and even the BT leading her to question that notion (unless I missed it or haven't come across it again) and that kind of grates on me.

 

Well Nyneave told Egwene everything when she returned to the WT, so Egwene should be aware that Rand is not insane at all at this point. Unless of course she rules out Nyneave's opinion because she thinks that Nyneave is affected by Rand's taveren influence. Nonetheless she should consider the posibility that Nyneave is not being influenced and is actually quite truthful. If she has failed to consider that, then she has in my opinion partly failed in her duty as Amyrlin, since the leader of the WT should consider all posibilities.

 

Actually, it is not very weird that Egwene thinks Rand is insane when he wants to break the seals. I think it is not even for us. After I read a theory Terez wrote (sorry, I can't find the link), I am convinced Moridin/Ishamael lured him into it.

 

I don't think it's weird that she thinks Rand is insane since his plan is insane, but if Nyneave is telling her otherwise than she should at least consider that he may be sane and therefore that his plan is not crazy. I'm not saying she should know why it's a good idea to break the seals, just that she consider that it might not be a bad idea. And afterall if Rand is sane, then the fact that Rand can remember LLT's life(which Egwene knows since he told her), should be much more interesting to Egwene. I just think she's being a little hasty.

 

As for whether Rand might actually might be wrong about the seals needing to be broken, I really don't think so. It would strike me as a really big coincidence that Herid Fel and Min came to exactly the same conclusion AND that Rand thought immediatly that it sounded right that they would need to be broken AND that Perrin's reaction to being told that Rand was going to break the seals is basically "Yep, sounds about right, when are we doing it". You'll notice that these people who think it's a good idea are either people who have put a lot of thought into the subjet (Herid Fel and Min) or tavaren (Rand and Perrin).

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One can argue that her faith in the WT is misguided but I think she truly believes she is doing whats best to serve the greater good and help the world fight the shadow. To say she is only motivated by power as we frequently see on the boards is ludicrous.

One can argue so for a lot of cases.Her believing being in the right does not make it so.Power is also one of her primary motivations, that much is clear.Her sole motivation ? Maybe not, but it's one of her primary ones.

 

She says to Elaida that she would be able to say that "the White Tower is more important than she is", even if she had sworn the oaths. She believes that the WT is more important for her than her power. I think she is right about what she thinks that is important...

Which excuses her actions how exactly ? Can you demonstrate to me how the whole blackmailing thing was important to the tower ? I have trouble seeing it.

Besides that, does what she said conflict with my assertion of her ?

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