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Egwene/the Aes Sedai

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I think that the worst aspects of the White Tower continuing to flourish and to infect other traditions is a legitimate concern, as well as the White Tower establishing itself as the senior institution.

 

Do you think the reforms she has instituted and her thoughts on how the WT needs to change in the future are a step in the right direction?

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I think that the worst aspects of the White Tower continuing to flourish and to infect other traditions is a legitimate concern, as well as the White Tower establishing itself as the senior institution.

 

Do you think the reforms she has instituted and her thoughts on how the WT needs to change in the future are a step in the right direction?

I definitely agree that Egwene is taking steps in the right direction, but I think that to this point she's missing underlying problems. The White Tower possesses a great deal of institutional arrogance, a great many Aes Sedai will make plays for power and advantage almost reflexively, and the overall mindset, attitude and outlook of Aes Sedai has led about a third of them to the Black Ajah. That Egwene needs to deal with multiple letters and messages from Sitters trying to chip away at her authority on the day before she confronts the Dragon on the Fields of Merillor is a sign that problems are ongoing. It's not that questioning the leader is bad in of itself, but that's not what they're doing; they're trying to play power games at pretty much the worst possible time imaginable. Egwene has taken some good first steps, but I don't think that she recognizes the institutional arrogance of the Aes Sedai, and I don't think that she fully recognizes why the nations of the world mistrust and are wary of Aes Sedai.

 

I think that the most positive development for the Tower in recent events hasn't been anything that Egwene has done. It's been the influx of women who are thirty and over, women who are unlikely to change in any fundamental way due to White Tower training. They'll generally be closer to being like Nynaeve than to being like the average current Aes Sedai. And that will have ripple effects down through the years.

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I think that the worst aspects of the White Tower continuing to flourish and to infect other traditions is a legitimate concern, as well as the White Tower establishing itself as the senior institution.

 

Do you think the reforms she has instituted and her thoughts on how the WT needs to change in the future are a step in the right direction?

I definitely agree that Egwene is taking steps in the right direction, but I think that to this point she's missing underlying problems. The White Tower possesses a great deal of institutional arrogance, a great many Aes Sedai will make plays for power and advantage almost reflexively, and the overall mindset, attitude and outlook of Aes Sedai has led about a third of them to the Black Ajah. That Egwene needs to deal with multiple letters and messages from Sitters trying to chip away at her authority on the day before she confronts the Dragon on the Fields of Merillor is a sign that problems are ongoing. It's not that questioning the leader is bad in of itself, but that's not what they're doing; they're trying to play power games at pretty much the worst possible time imaginable. Egwene has taken some good first steps, but I don't think that she recognizes the institutional arrogance of the Aes Sedai, and I don't think that she fully recognizes why the nations of the world mistrust and are wary of Aes Sedai.

 

I think that the most positive development for the Tower in recent events hasn't been anything that Egwene has done. It's been the influx of women who are thirty and over, women who are unlikely to change in any fundamental way due to White Tower training. They'll generally be closer to being like Nynaeve than to being like the average current Aes Sedai. And that will have ripple effects down through the years.

 

Wasn't Eggy the one that changed the age admittance rules? I would list that under one of her better reforms.

 

Wondering also how you think "the overall mindset, attitude and outlook of Aes Sedai has led about a third of them to the Black Ajah"? That is an interesting take that might have some merit. I always though it was just a prime target(power, prestige, undermining the shadows main opponent) and one of the few institutions that has had the type of continuity as to allow a slow but long term breeding ground for the Shadow. I would be interested to how that number compares to the level of DFs in other places. Has RJ ever mentioned overall what percentage are out there?

Edited by Suttree

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Yes, there will likely be some transference, but the Wise Ones and Windfinders will need to be alert and proactive in ensuring that they're not changed more than they want to be changed.

 

You use the example of American music, TV, etc. Look at the top of the charts right now on BBC Radio 1: half of the top ten are not British, and this is not unusual. The thing that's important to note here is that a) most of the British acts that are showing in that top 10 are relative unknowns in America (for example, I don't think that Olly Murs has actually even released a single in the US yet), and b) there are very strong, very specific mechanisms in place in the British music industry to support, develop, and promote British artists. BBC Introducing is an example of that; really, the BBC in general does a huge amount to keep you aware of your own culture. IMO, the BBC is the greatest bulwark of defense that exists for a specific culture in this world. And even outside that, there are some great examples of local British creations trumping America's multinationals - I prefer a Pret to a Starbucks for example.

 

But I digress slightly.

 

A best case scenario has all parties taking something from each other, each organization improving and gaining new strengths. That may yet occur. Best case scenarios having a habit of not occurring nearly often enough, I think that the worst aspects of the White Tower continuing to flourish and to infect other traditions is a legitimate concern, as well as the White Tower establishing itself as the senior institution.

 

 

So Olly Murs has not been released in the U.S well then your lucky. Maybe British pop music was a bad example because its crap, thanks to Simon Cowell (Shai'tan). Maybe TV would be better (the office,shameless,supernanny ect). But that's amother debate.

The WO/WF are not fools they know each institution will be jockeying for the best possable out come with regards to the exchange deal. (As it should be) And don't forget the WO's see the Accepted in the WT as coddled. I think it is not unreasonable to trust these strong women to take the positives while weeding out the negitives, of there apprentices getting WT training.

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I think one thing that's important to realize is that the WO and WF are both from largely isolated cultures that have come into contact with a much wider world view. That means they'll face some change, whether they officially form ties to the WT or not.

 

In the case of the Sea Folk, they can likely keep their culture intact, if they adapt, but there'll be others like Talaan who dream of going to the WT, and the WT is under no obligation to return them without some sort of Bargain in place. That door is now open, and can't be closed. With the likelihood of losing some of their apprentices to the WT anyway, it makes sense for them to ensure that they get something in return, rather than just losing them to defection. You can be confident that they'll work out a Bargain to ensure that they take care of their best interests, and will expect Egwene to do the same.

 

The Aiel are a bit different, in that the fate of their entire culture after TG is in question. They'll need to adapt or die out, and in all likelihood it won't be just small changes they'll need to accept. Can they go back to their isolation, or will they find themselves needing to integrate more into the wetlanders world? An alliance with the AS will go a long way toward the common folk accepting their legitimacy as a culture. They won't kneel before the WT, but the WT will give them a tie to the wetlands.

 

The WT will need to adapt too, to a world with more factions of channelers. They'll need to accept this truth, and like the other factions, they'll be looking at their best advantage. Egwene no doubt wants the WT to lead, which frankly only makes sense. While they've grown more isolated over the years, they're still the only of the three that has any experience outside of their immediate culture, and the only one that the common folk will accept as leaders. And with the Seanchan threat, they'll be better served with a united front, and with a leader.

 

And of course, the BT will change everything. A world with men channeling as safely as women will force a paradigm shift, whether the women work with them or against them. I think there's not much risk of the WT's traditional complacency in the near future coming into play; many individual sisters will try to maintain the status quo, but ultimately the change will come and force them to accept it. That's what makes Egwene a good leader for the female channelers; for all her faults, she's one of the few who's shown a willingness to accept change.

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I think that the worst aspects of the White Tower continuing to flourish and to infect other traditions is a legitimate concern, as well as the White Tower establishing itself as the senior institution.

 

Do you think the reforms she has instituted and her thoughts on how the WT needs to change in the future are a step in the right direction?

 

I think some of Egwene's reforms have definitely been good ideas- opening the novice book to older ages, changing the laws on ter'angreal, the motion in the Hall to prevent secret meetings, etc.

 

Egwene's political outlook as leader of the WT is interesting in the sense that whilst in some ways, she comes across as very open to change and willing to accept it, in other areas, she is quite traditional. She acknowledges that the WT cannot expect to hold onto its perceived channeling supremacy and ter'angreal possessions now that other channeling factions, male and female, have made themselves public. She opens the novice book, despite the fact that "its not how this is done" in the eyes of many other AS. She admits to the Wise Ones that "she is the leader of those fools", implying she is aware that AS are not perfect and almighty. But whilst her reforms have definitely showed a positive and necessary attitude towards change, they have also worked largely for the benefit of the WT- they have gained more novices, strengthening their numbers and power. They have lost some ter'angreal, but have gained the possibility of new knowledge (and potentially powerful new AS) from amongst the WO and WFs. The banning of secret meetings will hopefully prevent anything like the Tower split from happening again. And of course, this is all understandable, she is the leader of the AS, and is expected to make decisions that will benefit her organisation. But where are her apologies for the wrongs the tower has done? Apologies to Rand, as the leader of the AS, apologies to the people of Tar Valon who have suffered as a result of the Tower split. Where are her commands that the Greens should be out fighting in the Borderlands, or the Yellows travelling around and offering healing? Or commanding the Browns to open schools, or offer learning? The idea of "AS must be seen as strong and aloof, we must command obedience and not admit to faults or weaknesses" is still there, I think, the problem is, the rest of the world has seen the Tower split in half and fight itself, the world is no longer blind to their faults, and I think they may risk fostering resentment if they keep trying to appear that way.

 

I think that, whilst she is definitely aware of TG approaching, and the need to fight the Shadow, and whilst I don't believe she would consciously decide to do something that would put the Light at risk, however much it benefitted the WT, I do think she has the "traditional", if you like, attitude of believing that the WT and the AS need to be seen as respected, and leader, etc. which IS an attitude that has bred arrogance over the many years it has been held by the Tower. Egwene's far from the worst culprit, and there's a lot to be said for her attitude in some respects, but IMO, rather than the channelers (both male and female) seeing themselves as somehow above, and more important than other non-channelers, they need to be taught to use their powers to serve all. And that's not really an attitude we've seen from Egwene, or from many AS at all in the series. Nynaeve's words after her test, about how the AS let the WT become an end in itself, and how stupid it is to walk slowly and reservedly when there are people who need your help, purely to give off the serene AS image is something that I think many readers can agree with, but it seems that this is definitely seen as a view held by "outsiders" amongst AS, rather than the organisation itself, and that's something I don't see changing under Egwene.

 

In other words, I think her reforms are a good thing for the WT, and I think they, as an organisation, need someone leading them who accepts change, because its coming, like it or not. But I don't think they are necessarily steps that will lead to the AS accepting a lesser status, or expecting respect and obedience as their due. Aes Sedai meaning "Servants of All" has been mentioned, but I don't see Egwene being the one to take the steps to make it the case once again.

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Where are her commands that the Greens should be out fighting in the Borderlands, or the Yellows travelling around and offering healing? Or commanding the Browns to open schools, or offer learning? The idea of "AS must be seen as strong and aloof, we must command obedience and not admit to faults or weaknesses" is still there, I think, the problem is, the rest of the world has seen the Tower split in half and fight itself, the world is no longer blind to their faults, and I think they may risk fostering resentment if they keep trying to appear that way.

 

In other words, I think her reforms are a good thing for the WT, and I think they, as an organisation, need someone leading them who accepts change, because its coming, like it or not. But I don't think they are necessarily steps that will lead to the AS accepting a lesser status, or expecting respect and obedience as their due. Aes Sedai meaning "Servants of All" has been mentioned, but I don't see Egwene being the one to take the steps to make it the case once again.

 

Just wanted to touch on these parts. While I agree the WT could be doing much more, I feel readers often put far too much weight on "if we haven't seen it on screen, it's not happening" point of view. For instance in terms of a couple Ajahs,

 

Greens-I would be shocked if those Greens that work in the Borderlands(we know there are many more advisors than in regular nations from the tPoD prologue and I'm sure being there they have different duties) aren't helping fight against Shadowspawn. After all the BWB describes them as "Fierce fighters of Shadowspawn" so it is obviously happening out of sight, Kiruna for one we know has spent a good deal of time doing it. As for Eggy commanding them to go she is gathering info as we speak, and Ituralde himself says that is the most important step in fighting a battle.

 

Yellows-Also from BWB "Informants for the Yellow Ajah look for outbreaks of disease" and then send sisters out to combat it. So they do travel and offer healing.

 

In fact all of the sisters rooms in the WT that we seen, have momentos from a long life spent traveling and adventuring. Blues seek causes, we know the Grey's have been instrumental in various treaties. Browns up to this point have gathered knowledge for the WT but Min had the viewing of the one who would found the first major library so things are changing. My point is while they have a long way to go I feel people often sell them short just because there every day works aren't part of the storyline.

 

As for Egwene, I think her changes have been huge considering TG is on the doorstep, we know how she views the Amrylin's ideal place from TGS

 

"The Amyrlin understands the most complex of creeds and debates," Egwene said, quoting from memory. "Yet in the end, she is the servant of all, even the lowest of laborers."

 

Not sure if we will get to read about it but post TG I think the AS are in for a good deal of humbling and all the channeling groups together will start to get back to their true purpose.

Edited by Suttree

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Errr okay were to start.

Why do people insist at this exchange deal will make a loss of culture, I see it rather as a change of culture for EVERYONE including the WT, after TG all will change. I am not totally blind to your points big multi nationals are cutting out the corner shop, to an exstent. A lot of people in my own city (Liverpool, England) people wine about how americanized we've become. I see it differently I see us listening to american music,tv shows ect, coppying then putting our own unique spin on it. Case in point the Beatles took american rock an roll music and made something new that changed both cultures.

 

Yes, there will likely be some transference, but the Wise Ones and Windfinders will need to be alert and proactive in ensuring that they're not changed more than they want to be changed.

 

You use the example of American music, TV, etc. Look at the top of the charts right now on BBC Radio 1: half of the top ten are not British, and this is not unusual. The thing that's important to note here is that a) most of the British acts that are showing in that top 10 are relative unknowns in America (for example, I don't think that Olly Murs has actually even released a single in the US yet), and b) there are very strong, very specific mechanisms in place in the British music industry to support, develop, and promote British artists. BBC Introducing is an example of that; really, the BBC in general does a huge amount to keep you aware of your own culture. IMO, the BBC is the greatest bulwark of defense that exists for a specific culture in this world. And even outside that, there are some great examples of local British creations trumping America's multinationals - I prefer a Pret to a Starbucks for example.

 

But I digress slightly.

 

A best case scenario has all parties taking something from each other, each organization improving and gaining new strengths. That may yet occur. Best case scenarios having a habit of not occurring nearly often enough, I think that the worst aspects of the White Tower continuing to flourish and to infect other traditions is a legitimate concern, as well as the White Tower establishing itself as the senior institution.

 

Let me preface this by reminding people I am PRO Egwene and her reforms, but there are most certainly risks. And the UK example is nothing compared to Canada. Not only are we pressed up against the US, but we're fairly similar to start and have a tenth of the population to the UK's fifth. There are Canadian Content (known here as CanCon) rules and other "cultural exemptions" for Canada in the North American [so-called] Free Trade Agreement because of Canada's paranoia of being swallowed whole by the american media machine. I've heard (though I think it's an exaggeration) the number one 24 hour news network in Canada is CNN, not our heavily-government-subsided national news network.

 

There are rules on any radio stations that they have to play a certain % of Canadian music (I think it's 25% recently? changes now-and-then). And don't even get me started on Quebec. Bill 101 in Quebec which regulates (among other things) the FONT SIZE of the languages used on commercial signs (French must be larger than the English).

 

So when you make deals with overwhelming entities, there are certainly risks of losings something of one's own. Sometimes you can just decide it's not worth saving. Lots of people don't like Canadian music and would prefer not to have to listen to so much bare naked ladies on every radio station. But if you, as a group, decide that you have something worth preserving, then you can make other rules to help protect what you want to protect. That doesn't mean you should cut all ties with the "offending" entity if the other benefits are still worth having.

 

And yes, some stuff still goes the other way, even if one entity is generally overwhelming. I mean without Canada you wouldn't have Justin Bieber. You're welcome.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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Guest PiotrekS
"The Amyrlin understands the most complex of creeds and debates," Egwene said, quoting from memory. "Yet in the end, she is the servant of all, even the lowest of laborers."

 

This manner of speaking is the main reason why I can't bear Egwene's arc. How can you stand those pompous, holier-than-thou, swollen-up like a puffer fish, heavy and pretentious statements? Not to mention that of course while learning to be a Dreamer, runing around having adventures, learning from Siuan and fighting for power over Aes Sedai she was still able to memorise all those quotes from WT history and law (the quotes are lame, but that's another thing)...

 

I like the analogies made with cultural influence of bigger countries on smaller, but for me the question is simpler. Of course neither Egwene nor the WOs are able to foresee the future, maybe the WT will gain more influence simply because of it weight in politics, culture and economy and it might happen anyway, irrespective of Egwene's plans of alliance.

 

My question is: does Egwene want to respect the limits her Wise Ones friends want to impose on their alliance, i.e. they don't want to be tied to the WT too tightly, they want a looser type of connection. It seems Egwene wants to make it something more against their their unequivocal will and will try to make it a reality in some kind of gradual political process where the WOs will have to use all their wisdom not to be outplayed. I think that Egwene should not treat the WOs in this way, as just another political leader of a faction she has to outsmart, but realise that the friendship and respect for the WOs she so often mentions should make her respect their choice and not try to realise her plan anyway, as a politician would do. So, no "tying with lace", but "you don't want to be tied with us? I hope you will change your opinion, but I accept your decision as long as it stands".

 

I have no problem with the Sea Folk, because Egwene does not invoke any ties of special friendship with them and therefore is free to try to outmaneuver them in the the bargaining process.

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This manner of speaking is the main reason why I can't bear Egwene's arc. How can you stand those pompous, holier-than-thou, swollen-up like a puffer fish, heavy and pretentious statements? Not to mention that of course while learning to be a Dreamer, runing around having adventures, learning from Siuan and fighting for power over Aes Sedai she was still able to memorise all those quotes from WT history and law (the quotes are lame, but that's another thing)...

 

 

 

Then I am guessing you wanted to throw up when you read about her "battle" with Mesaana....

 

"er..I am the white tower...er...er..I am the greatest of the greatest...die insect..in front of the great amyrlin..er"

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I would just like to question (once again) the idea that the WT is the bigger culture, and the WS's won't edit carefully what WT traditions they like and don't like.

Also underestimating the Aiel influence on the wetlands seems mad look what happened in Cairhienin, Cha faile. The American/Canadian analogy is way off the mark the Canadians are not well know for there overwhelming personalities (no offence) while the Aiel have thousands of years of tradition, iron wills plus ji'e'toh which would hover over every choice they make

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Guest PiotrekS

 

 

This manner of speaking is the main reason why I can't bear Egwene's arc. How can you stand those pompous, holier-than-thou, swollen-up like a puffer fish, heavy and pretentious statements? Not to mention that of course while learning to be a Dreamer, runing around having adventures, learning from Siuan and fighting for power over Aes Sedai she was still able to memorise all those quotes from WT history and law (the quotes are lame, but that's another thing)...

 

 

 

Then I am guessing you wanted to throw up when you read about her "battle" with Mesaana....

 

"er..I am the white tower...er...er..I am the greatest of the greatest...die insect..in front of the great amyrlin..er"

Yes, it was hard to read.

I found myself feeling really sorry for Mesaana, which was a weird feeling :wink: How could she win in a duel of wills with somebody who has a bigger ego than a freaking Forsaken?!

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This manner of speaking is the main reason why I can't bear Egwene's arc. How can you stand those pompous, holier-than-thou, swollen-up like a puffer fish, heavy and pretentious statements? Not to mention that of course while learning to be a Dreamer, runing around having adventures, learning from Siuan and fighting for power over Aes Sedai she was still able to memorise all those quotes from WT history and law (the quotes are lame, but that's another thing)...

 

 

 

Then I am guessing you wanted to throw up when you read about her "battle" with Mesaana....

 

"er..I am the white tower...er...er..I am the greatest of the greatest...die insect..in front of the great amyrlin..er"

Yes, it was hard to read.

I found myself feeling really sorry for Mesaana, which was a weird feeling :wink: How could she win in a duel of wills with somebody who has a bigger ego than a freaking Forsaken?!

 

Yeah, it's hot.

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It doesn' matter what you all really think in the end. The wheel itself will ensure that the Aes Sedai will reign supreme amongst the channellers. So anyone looking for the Aes Sedai dimished power is barking up the wrong tree. On the contrary, a few reds are going to start whipping some ashaman butts at BT in AMOL prologue. After the lord dragon has failed to police his own house which resulted in people getting turned, it will be up to Aes Sedai to clean house and show hesistant Ashaman how it is done.

 

Taim will wish in the end he killed toveine and the 50 other Aes Sedai Elaida sent.

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Guest PiotrekS

 

 

This manner of speaking is the main reason why I can't bear Egwene's arc. How can you stand those pompous, holier-than-thou, swollen-up like a puffer fish, heavy and pretentious statements? Not to mention that of course while learning to be a Dreamer, runing around having adventures, learning from Siuan and fighting for power over Aes Sedai she was still able to memorise all those quotes from WT history and law (the quotes are lame, but that's another thing)...

 

 

 

Then I am guessing you wanted to throw up when you read about her "battle" with Mesaana....

 

"er..I am the white tower...er...er..I am the greatest of the greatest...die insect..in front of the great amyrlin..er"

Yes, it was hard to read.

I found myself feeling really sorry for Mesaana, which was a weird feeling :wink: How could she win in a duel of wills with somebody who has a bigger ego than a freaking Forsaken?!

 

Yeah, it's hot.

 

I'm sure the irony has been deadly, but luckily I have no idea what you've meant :wink:

Probably :smile: you're not delighted with our posts, but that's a subjective thing, whether you enjoy a certain scene or type of writing -or not.

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It doesn' matter what you all really think in the end. The wheel itself will ensure that the Aes Sedai will reign supreme amongst the channellers. So anyone looking for the Aes Sedai dimished power is barking up the wrong tree. On the contrary, a few reds are going to start whipping some ashaman butts at BT in AMOL prologue. After the lord dragon has failed to police his own house which resulted in people getting turned, it will be up to Aes Sedai to clean house and show hesistant Ashaman how it is done.

 

Taim will wish in the end he killed toveine and the 50 other Aes Sedai Elaida sent.

 

As long as what is called today as the female AS loose their monopoly on power..I really don't care whether the group is called AS or the monkey men from Mars.

 

Not sure what the As can teach..after all 1/3rd of their organization has been filled with DF's for 3000 years

Edited by XXX47

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It doesn' matter what you all really think in the end. The wheel itself will ensure that the Aes Sedai will reign supreme amongst the channellers. So anyone looking for the Aes Sedai dimished power is barking up the wrong tree. On the contrary, a few reds are going to start whipping some ashaman butts at BT in AMOL prologue. After the lord dragon has failed to police his own house which resulted in people getting turned, it will be up to Aes Sedai to clean house and show hesistant Ashaman how it is done.

 

Taim will wish in the end he killed toveine and the 50 other Aes Sedai Elaida sent.

 

As long as what is called today as the female AS loose their monopoly on power..I really don't care whether the group is called AS or the monkey men from Mars.

 

Not sure what the As can teach..after all 1/3rd of their organization has been filled with DF's for 3000 years

 

 

 

2 thousand years, Isamael only started recruiting BA at the start of the Trolloc war. But good point anyway.

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It doesn' matter what you all really think in the end. The wheel itself will ensure that the Aes Sedai will reign supreme amongst the channellers. So anyone looking for the Aes Sedai dimished power is barking up the wrong tree. On the contrary, a few reds are going to start whipping some ashaman butts at BT in AMOL prologue. After the lord dragon has failed to police his own house which resulted in people getting turned, it will be up to Aes Sedai to clean house and show hesistant Ashaman how it is done.

 

Taim will wish in the end he killed toveine and the 50 other Aes Sedai Elaida sent.

 

As long as what is called today as the female AS loose their monopoly on power..I really don't care whether the group is called AS or the monkey men from Mars.

 

Not sure what the As can teach..after all 1/3rd of their organization has been filled with DF's for 3000 years

 

Errmmm how to clear out the DFs as Egwene just did?

 

I think it is fair to say that the AS will be responsible for running out Taim and his cronies. Pevara has a pretty big moment of awesome coming up and the BT will be "rent in blood and fire". In the long run this will lead to the Ashaman being stronger once the 13x13 factory is shut down and all the groups are working together.

 

BS

 

Hopefully we’ll get to see more of Pevara being awesome, but that could possibly appear in a novella on Brandon’s web page that will fill in some missing holes. But no promises!
Edited by Suttree

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Wasn't Eggy the one that changed the age admittance rules? I would list that under one of her better reforms.

 

Wondering also how you think "the overall mindset, attitude and outlook of Aes Sedai has led about a third of them to the Black Ajah"? That is an interesting take that might have some merit. I always though it was just a prime target(power, prestige, undermining the shadows main opponent) and one of the few institutions that has had the type of continuity as to allow a slow but long term breeding ground for the Shadow. I would be interested to how that number compares to the level of DFs in other places. Has RJ ever mentioned overall what percentage are out there?

 

While the power, prestige and strategic value in subverting Aes Sedai is not to be underestimated, I think that it's important to note that to date we've seen no kings or queens or other persons of similar levels of authority that are Darkfriends. While Murandy might be an exception (assuming that Demandred isn't the leader), it's still remarkable that the leaders of the world haven't tried to make ill advised bargains with the Shadow while well over three hundred Aes Sedai in an organization of about a thousand women have turned to the Shadow.

 

And yes, while the seed of allowing greater numbers of women in as novices was planted by the Hall of the Little Tower, it was Egwene that took the idea and expanded on it to all ages. I believe it was her single best reform, for a large number of reasons. Her intent, as I recall in the books, was to make sure as many women as possible who could be useful in the struggles ahead would be able to be trained and made useful. The law of unintended consequences took effect; the probable dilution of Aes Sedai mindset is one of those, and as I indicated, might be the best consequence of Egwene's best decision.

 

 

 

So Olly Murs has not been released in the U.S well then your lucky. Maybe British pop music was a bad example because its crap, thanks to Simon Cowell (Shai'tan). Maybe TV would be better (the office,shameless,supernanny ect). But that's amother debate.

Heh. I don't disagree about Olly Murs, but look on the flip side, artists like Amy Winehouse and Adele.

 

 

 

Egwene no doubt wants the WT to lead, which frankly only makes sense. While they've grown more isolated over the years, they're still the only of the three that has any experience outside of their immediate culture, and the only one that the common folk will accept as leaders. And with the Seanchan threat, they'll be better served with a united front, and with a leader.

 

I agree with most of what you said in your post until this point. Specifically, about the common folk accepting them as leaders. I actually think that of the three groups, they're the ones least likely to be accepted as leaders. At best, you have the Borderlands and the Two Rivers, where Aes Sedai are given considerable respect. Beyond that, you have the likes of Andor, where they're not likely to be attacked, but people are distrustful of them, and many are not shy about calling them witches behind their backs. And beyond that, you have the likes of Tear, where Aes Sedai are distinctly not wanted and only barely tolerated.

 

 

That's what makes Egwene a good leader for the female channelers; for all her faults, she's one of the few who's shown a willingness to accept change.

 

I think that the Wise Ones have been fairly good at accepting change, whether they like it or not. Their worlds have been turned upside down during the course of the story, to a much greater extent than even the broken Tower. They've often been unhappy with change, but they grit their teeth and moved forward with minimal hesitation.

 

 

 

And yes, some stuff still goes the other way, even if one entity is generally overwhelming. I mean without Canada you wouldn't have Justin Bieber. You're welcome.

 

I for one am eagerly awaiting the Justin Bieber "A Part of Our Heritage" commercial.

 

 

The American/Canadian analogy is way off the mark the Canadians are not well know for there overwhelming personalities (no offence) while the Aiel have thousands of years of tradition, iron wills plus ji'e'toh which would hover over every choice they make

 

Don't mistake "overwhelming" for strong or quiet for weak. I think that the vast majority of Canadians, myself included, believe that we have a nation and system superior to that of the United States. In many ways we believe that we're the greatest nation on earth. We just generally don't make a huge amount of noise about being better than you.

Edited by Hopefire

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While the power, prestige and strategic value in subverting Aes Sedai is not to be underestimated, I think that it's important to note that to date we've seen no kings or queens or other persons of similar levels of authority that are Darkfriends. While Murandy might be an exception (assuming that Demandred isn't the leader), it's still remarkable that the leaders of the world haven't tried to make ill advised bargains with the Shadow while well over three hundred Aes Sedai in an organization of about a thousand women have turned to the Shadow.

 

Guess I always assumed the reason for this was Forsaken(Rahvin, Sammael, Be'lal etc.) were just taking those positions themselves since they were so rare and important. On the flip we had Suroth and we have seen numerous DFs in the high nobility so I'm not sure if it really says anything either way.

 

So Olly Murs has not been released in the U.S well then your lucky. Maybe British pop music was a bad example because its crap, thanks to Simon Cowell (Shai'tan). Maybe TV would be better (the office,shameless,supernanny ect). But that's amother debate.

Heh. I don't disagree about Olly Murs, but look on the flip side, artists like Amy Winehouse and Adele.

 

Isn't really pop but I'm from California and was really into The Libertines years ago. They went a good ways in bringing back guitar music. Along those lines the last Arctic Monkeys album was ace. I'm all for British music making it's way over.

Edited by Suttree

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Guest PiotrekS

It doesn' matter what you all really think in the end. The wheel itself will ensure that the Aes Sedai will reign supreme amongst the channellers. So anyone looking for the Aes Sedai dimished power is barking up the wrong tree. On the contrary, a few reds are going to start whipping some ashaman butts at BT in AMOL prologue. After the lord dragon has failed to police his own house which resulted in people getting turned, it will be up to Aes Sedai to clean house and show hesistant Ashaman how it is done.

 

Taim will wish in the end he killed toveine and the 50 other Aes Sedai Elaida sent.

 

As long as what is called today as the female AS loose their monopoly on power..I really don't care whether the group is called AS or the monkey men from Mars.

 

Not sure what the As can teach..after all 1/3rd of their organization has been filled with DF's for 3000 years

 

Errmmm how to clear out the DFs as Egwene just did?

 

I think it is fair to say that the AS will be responsible for running out Taim and his cronies. Pevara has a pretty big moment of awesome coming up and the BT will be "rent in blood and fire". In the long run this will lead to the Ashaman being stronger once the 13x13 factory is shut down and all the groups are working together.

 

BS

 

Hopefully we’ll get to see more of Pevara being awesome, but that could possibly appear in a novella on Brandon’s web page that will fill in some missing holes. But no promises!

 

I guess the BT will be cleansed by the Light-side Asha'man and Light-side Aes Sedai working together against Dark Asha'man and Aes Sedai (both turned and Black Ajah, though I'm not sure - did Alviarin prevent any BA from going with Tarna?).

Maybe when they see that the divide is not determined by gender, but that there are men and women on both sides, they might carry on with this experience and help forge the rules of new alliance of Aes Sedai and Asha'man.

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It doesn' matter what you all really think in the end. The wheel itself will ensure that the Aes Sedai will reign supreme amongst the channellers. So anyone looking for the Aes Sedai dimished power is barking up the wrong tree. On the contrary, a few reds are going to start whipping some ashaman butts at BT in AMOL prologue. After the lord dragon has failed to police his own house which resulted in people getting turned, it will be up to Aes Sedai to clean house and show hesistant Ashaman how it is done.

 

Taim will wish in the end he killed toveine and the 50 other Aes Sedai Elaida sent.

 

As long as what is called today as the female AS loose their monopoly on power..I really don't care whether the group is called AS or the monkey men from Mars.

 

Not sure what the As can teach..after all 1/3rd of their organization has been filled with DF's for 3000 years

 

Errmmm how to clear out the DFs as Egwene just did?

 

I think it is fair to say that the AS will be responsible for running out Taim and his cronies. Pevara has a pretty big moment of awesome coming up and the BT will be "rent in blood and fire". In the long run this will lead to the Ashaman being stronger once the 13x13 factory is shut down and all the groups are working together.

 

BS

 

Hopefully we’ll get to see more of Pevara being awesome, but that could possibly appear in a novella on Brandon’s web page that will fill in some missing holes. But no promises!

 

Like how Egwene was given a book with names?..I see. I guess they better wait for that book, it might show up after 2000 years!!

 

AS cannot do anything on their own..the AS in the BT cannot even leave. Any action will be a combined effort with the Asha'man with reinforcements bought by Logain or Rand himself.

Edited by XXX47

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Well, in fairness, Egwene was given that book of names by...an Aes Sedai.

 

The White Tower is decadent, and corrupt. But not all Aes Sedai are worthless.

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Most of the Sitters who had sworn to Egwene, Sheriam included, had done so out of simple fear, really, and self-preservation. If the Hall learned they had sent sisters to sway the Aes Sedai in Tar Valon, and worse, kept the fact from the Hall for fear of Darkfriends among the Sitters, they surely and certainly would spend the rest of their lives in penance and exile. So the women who had believed they could somehow twitch Egwene about like a puppet, after the greater part of their influence with the Hall melted, instead found themselves sworn to obey her. That was rare even in the secret histories; sisters were expected to obey the Amyrlin, but swearing fealty was something else again. Most still seemed unsettled by it, though they did obey. Few were as bad as Carlinya, but Egwene had actually heard Beonin’s teeth chatter the first time she saw Egwene with Sitters after swearing. Morvrin looked astonished anew whenever her eyes fell on Egwene, as if she still did not quite believe, and Nisao hardly seemed to stop frowning. Anaiya clicked her tongue over the secrecy, and Myrelle often flinched, though for more reason than taking an oath. But Sheriam simply had settled into the role of Egwene’s Keeper of the Chronicles in truth, not just name.

 

 

 

What will the AS do if they find out Egwene blackmailed several Sitters in swearing fealty directly to her, not to mention the other sisters with less power of decision in the hierarchy of the WT that were forced to do the same?

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While the power, prestige and strategic value in subverting Aes Sedai is not to be underestimated, I think that it's important to note that to date we've seen no kings or queens or other persons of similar levels of authority that are Darkfriends. While Murandy might be an exception (assuming that Demandred isn't the leader), it's still remarkable that the leaders of the world haven't tried to make ill advised bargains with the Shadow while well over three hundred Aes Sedai in an organization of about a thousand women have turned to the Shadow.

 

Guess I always assumed the reason for this was Forsaken(Rahvin, Sammael, Be'lal etc.) were just taking those positions themselves since they were so rare and important. On the flip we had Suroth and we have seen numerous DFs in the high nobility so I'm not sure if it really says anything either way.

 

While Sammael, Be'lal and Rhavin introduced themselves into the structure of nobility in various nations, they did so personally; they weren't able to simply show up as the King's new adviser and immediately assume an obvious position of power that was handed to them. Instead, they had to pretend to be backwater nobility that had suddenly risen to prominence. Darkfriends as kings hasn't been seen yet.

 

When you compare the number of nobles introduced to the number darkfriends among them, nobles really don't do that bad. Barthanes, Suroth, Torukumen, Anaiyella and Weiramon have been the five highest placed darkfriends active during the course of the series. Even factoring in the darkfriends in lesser roles among the nobility, like Ingtar and Elegar, we've seen fewer darkfriends per capita in places like the nobility of Tear and Cairhein than we have in the White Tower. The wotwiki lists more known Black Ajah than it does darkfriends outside of the Tower. Aes Sedai fall to the dark side at an alarming rate that in my opinion can't be explained by the idea that Ishamael really, really wants to recruit them. I'm sure that he does, but there's fertile ground there for him to work with.

 

 

 

While typing this, I couldn't help but imagine an annual jobs fair style event, with the Ajah's, including the Black, all having booths. The White Ajah is two women sitting at a plain folding table with neatly stacked application papers and pens laid out in precise rows. The Blue Ajah has a ton of posters from Greenpeace, PETA, etc and a bunch of young women looking earnest and carrying petitions to sign. Etc for each of the other Ajahs. Meanwhile, the Black Ajah has Ishamael arriving in a way similar to that of Tony Stark in Iron Man 2 at the Stark Expo (except probably bare chested, and on a flaming Harley), followed by AC/DC absolutely rocking Back in Black in front of a screaming crowd of novices and accepted absolutely trashed on an open bar serving tequila and jello shots.

 

Really, barring a typical mindset already similar to that of a darkfriend, I'm not seeing any other way that recruitment is so good. :myrddraal:

Edited by Hopefire

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