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Egwene/the Aes Sedai

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What makes people crazy about this thread I don't understand it at all. Egwene and nynaeve are chums,buddies,matess,pals,amigos,bff's. They are,always have been and always will be so far as I can see. It seems the biggest bone of contention is whether Egwene was teaching nyn a lesson in TAR (some tough love) or was something more sinister. Since we can not get Egwene in the dock in a court of law we can debate this untill the world ends(almost wish it would). Can't we just put it down to they can both be bitches same as a lot of girls (and men) towards each other. The biggest mystery for me is how Egwene manages to hoodwink and get one over on women centuries older with tricks my 7 year old son would see through (maybe not war law, but hey you've gotta admit for old wise grand manipulaters these AS are pretty thick)

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Guest PiotrekS

Something not-so-nice happened while I wasn't looking?

 

But still, damandred, I agree with you. We're not going to go any further with this debate, especially since it seems the whole scene in TAR wasn't that significant in RJ's view of the characters.He probably saw it as some "tough love", as you put it.

 

I absolutely agree with the other things you said as well.

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What makes people crazy about this thread I don't understand it at all. Egwene and nynaeve are chums,buddies,matess,pals,amigos,bff's. They are,always have been and always will be so far as I can see. It seems the biggest bone of contention is whether Egwene was teaching nyn a lesson in TAR (some tough love) or was something more sinister. Since we can not get Egwene in the dock in a court of law we can debate this untill the world ends(almost wish it would). Can't we just put it down to they can both be bitches same as a lot of girls (and men) towards each other. The biggest mystery for me is how Egwene manages to hoodwink and get one over on women centuries older with tricks my 7 year old son would see through (maybe not war law, but hey you've gotta admit for old wise grand manipulaters these AS are pretty thick)

 

 

How does she do it? With a calm voice, friendly attitude and some other TaR related advice(last one only for Nyn and Elayne).

 

She did not like being in this room either. Why had Egwene suggested meeting here? Elaida’s study might not be the most comfortable place to be, but it was better than this.

 

A moment later, Egwene was there, on the other side of the broad table, eyes icy and hands on her hips as if she was the room’s rightful occupant.

 

Before Nynaeve could open her mouth, Egwene said, “Have you two brainless flap-tongues become witless ninnies? If I ask you to keep something to yourselves, do you immediately tell the first person you meet? Did it never occur to you that you don’t have to tell everyone everything? I thought you two were good at keeping secrets.” Nynaeve’s cheeks grew warmer; at least she could not possibly be as scarlet as Elayne. Egwene was not quite finished. “As for how I did it, I can’t teach you. You have to be a Dreamwalker. If you can touch somebody’s dreams with the ring, I don’t know how. And I doubt you can with that other thing. Try to keep your mind on what you’re doing. Salidar may be nothing like you expect. Now, I also have things to do tonight. At least try to keep your wits about you!” And she was gone so suddenly the last word almost seemed to come from empty air.

FoH, chapter 49.

 

Bow to her diplomatic skills.

Edited by Aiel Blademaster

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That's cool. With the AS in the first few books reading what's whispered about them and seeing moiraines berring you think wise all knowing (Gandalf-esq) type women. Then in middle to end books you think, spoilt brats with too much power (George W Bush, City Bankers). The truth is most likley somewhere inbetween though we have seen much to much of the later resently and not enough of the former(with a small few exceptions). Now to egwene what a prodigy 2years out of her village and a year or less studying in the tower and she's superwoman. It takes a year in collage learning to fit gas pipes but now she's a political animal,debates logic with the best of them knows her history and is supreme in the power(she did have moggy,morry and circumstance to teach in that I soppose). The point is you need to see her strong and conferdant to fullfill her role as amyrlin but she is still young and inexperanced and you need to see that as well or its just not credable RJ got that a bit not so BS I think.

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I tend to agree with the interpretation that the nightmare wasn't planned but was still meant as a distraction. Bear in mind that whilst Egwene was talking, she WAS preventing Nynaeve from speaking and returning to the topic at hand, but Nynaeve kept trying to interrupt her, up until the point Egwene summoned the nightmare. Given that Egwene's speech had cut off Nynaeve's question about whether she was allowed in TAR on her own, its not unreasonable for Egwene to assume that Nynaeve is going to go straight back to asking that question, especially given that she "flushed with embarassment" and is sure Nynaeve will manage to get it out of her. Once she summons the nightmare, Nynaeve is shocked into distraction, and pleading with Egwene, and afterwards, she talks about how she could have handled it herself- Egwene knows for certain at this stage that she has effectively moved Nynaeve's focus away from Egwene's ability/ permissions, and onto Nynaeve's.

 

Once again, I am not saying that she was planning to be a bitch to her friend, but I do think that the nightmare WAS used as part of the coverup.

 

If it wasn't, and was genuinely meant to teach Nynaeve about her shortcomings in TAR, then why, given that it demonstrated a point, does she not use the exact same, or similar, display on Elayne? After all, Elayne also hops around TAR, and also has limited knowledge of the dangers. But Elayne doesn't question Egwene on whether she's allowed to be there or not, and is never treated the way Nynaeve was. Hence my conclusions: Egwene acted harshly throughout that scene, to cover up her lie to the WOs, and then to cement her apparent superiority over Nynaeve, perhaps to prevent the question from coming up again, perhaps because she enjoys it. She does not inflict the same treatment on others, even if they are at the same, or lower levels of skill.

 

As I've said above, I think RJ intended this as a tipping of the balance, yes, but also as a precursor to Egwene's dealings with the Hall and other AS in Salidar. If she acted as she had before this point in the series, and shouted and sulked and sniped at anyone who tried to control her or tell her what to do, then she would very quickly have cemented her reputation as a child pawn, and would likely have acted as such. This is an early example of her using calm to get "on top" of a situation and a person, which is important to Egwene's later developments, I would say. Unfortunately, getting on top in this case meant covering up her own lie, humiliating her friend and then being delighted with the results.

 

@damandred: I don't get it either, its one of the things that irks me (along with a few months of training being enough to make an inexperienced Rand into a Blademaster in TGH). I think RJ was trying to make it look like Egwene is a political mastermind, unfortunately because the gap is so ridiculously large, given her limited training time (the series lasts about 2 years, I believe, and with her Wise One training and BA hunting, her politics and channelling training put together make up less than half of that time, in all likelihood. And yet, Centuries old AS are asking for her advice on Warders, and how to deal with the tower split, etc?), and because its acheieved mostly by having every other AS act like a moron whilst Egwene spouts what is basic common sense, it doesn't really work. It doesn't take a genius to know Elaida sucks, nor how to try and foster a little harmony between Ajahs. It doesn't even take someone especially smart. The effect tends to make people either a) annoyed because showing someone's skills by making everyone around them have an attack of stupid is kind of shoddy writing, or b) Make the whole AS organisation look like a load of bumbling fools (What's that? Everyone in your organisation can be outsmarted by a barely trained 19 year old handing out basic common sense?- and yes, I'm aware Egwene's training has been wide ranging, but because of this, and the time limitations, it means her time spent on aforementioned skills has been sparse) It puts women who are, on the one hand supposed to be an organisation of master manipulators who have retained a hold over the world's politics for centuries, and makes the reader wonder how on Earth they manage to have the intelligence to feed and dress themselves of a morning.

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Well said! It will be intresting to so how she is with cadsuane and morry). I think also if any AS try to lord it over morry coz of her loss of OP channeling abilty (like they did to suane) they will get a BIG shock. And so they should! Ps. Please please please for the love of the light let's not back track to the old eggy v nyn war.

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Well said! It will be intresting to so how she is with cadsuane and morry). I think also if any AS try to lord it over morry coz of her loss of OP channeling abilty (like they did to suane) they will get a BIG shock. And so they should! Ps. Please please please for the love of the light let's not back track to the old eggy v nyn war.

 

 

Ahhh, k, I'll let it pass. Himiko really nailed it with that last post(and with others), so there's nothing else to point out.

As for Egwene vs Cads or Moiraine, I wouldn't hold my breath much. She'll deal with them as she did with the rest of them, after they both kneel and kiss her ring.

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I tend to agree with the interpretation that the nightmare wasn't planned but was still meant as a distraction. Bear in mind that whilst Egwene was talking, she WAS preventing Nynaeve from speaking and returning to the topic at hand, but Nynaeve kept trying to interrupt her, up until the point Egwene summoned the nightmare. Given that Egwene's speech had cut off Nynaeve's question about whether she was allowed in TAR on her own, its not unreasonable for Egwene to assume that Nynaeve is going to go straight back to asking that question, especially given that she "flushed with embarassment" and is sure Nynaeve will manage to get it out of her. Once she summons the nightmare, Nynaeve is shocked into distraction, and pleading with Egwene, and afterwards, she talks about how she could have handled it herself- Egwene knows for certain at this stage that she has effectively moved Nynaeve's focus away from Egwene's ability/ permissions, and onto Nynaeve's.

 

Once again, I am not saying that she was planning to be a bitch to her friend, but I do think that the nightmare WAS used as part of the coverup.

 

If it wasn't, and was genuinely meant to teach Nynaeve about her shortcomings in TAR, then why, given that it demonstrated a point, does she not use the exact same, or similar, display on Elayne? After all, Elayne also hops around TAR, and also has limited knowledge of the dangers. But Elayne doesn't question Egwene on whether she's allowed to be there or not, and is never treated the way Nynaeve was. Hence my conclusions: Egwene acted harshly throughout that scene, to cover up her lie to the WOs, and then to cement her apparent superiority over Nynaeve, perhaps to prevent the question from coming up again, perhaps because she enjoys it. She does not inflict the same treatment on others, even if they are at the same, or lower levels of skill.

 

As I've said above, I think RJ intended this as a tipping of the balance, yes, but also as a precursor to Egwene's dealings with the Hall and other AS in Salidar. If she acted as she had before this point in the series, and shouted and sulked and sniped at anyone who tried to control her or tell her what to do, then she would very quickly have cemented her reputation as a child pawn, and would likely have acted as such. This is an early example of her using calm to get "on top" of a situation and a person, which is important to Egwene's later developments, I would say. Unfortunately, getting on top in this case meant covering up her own lie, humiliating her friend and then being delighted with the results.

 

@damandred: I don't get it either, its one of the things that irks me (along with a few months of training being enough to make an inexperienced Rand into a Blademaster in TGH). I think RJ was trying to make it look like Egwene is a political mastermind, unfortunately because the gap is so ridiculously large, given her limited training time (the series lasts about 2 years, I believe, and with her Wise One training and BA hunting, her politics and channelling training put together make up less than half of that time, in all likelihood. And yet, Centuries old AS are asking for her advice on Warders, and how to deal with the tower split, etc?), and because its acheieved mostly by having every other AS act like a moron whilst Egwene spouts what is basic common sense, it doesn't really work. It doesn't take a genius to know Elaida sucks, nor how to try and foster a little harmony between Ajahs. It doesn't even take someone especially smart. The effect tends to make people either a) annoyed because showing someone's skills by making everyone around them have an attack of stupid is kind of shoddy writing, or b) Make the whole AS organisation look like a load of bumbling fools (What's that? Everyone in your organisation can be outsmarted by a barely trained 19 year old handing out basic common sense?- and yes, I'm aware Egwene's training has been wide ranging, but because of this, and the time limitations, it means her time spent on aforementioned skills has been sparse) It puts women who are, on the one hand supposed to be an organisation of master manipulators who have retained a hold over the world's politics for centuries, and makes the reader wonder how on Earth they manage to have the intelligence to feed and dress themselves of a morning.

 

Very well said!

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What makes people crazy about this thread I don't understand it at all. Egwene and nynaeve are chums,buddies,matess,pals,amigos,bff's. They are,always have been and always will be so far as I can see. It seems the biggest bone of contention is whether Egwene was teaching nyn a lesson in TAR (some tough love) or was something more sinister. Since we can not get Egwene in the dock in a court of law we can debate this untill the world ends(almost wish it would). Can't we just put it down to they can both be bitches same as a lot of girls (and men) towards each other. The biggest mystery for me is how Egwene manages to hoodwink and get one over on women centuries older with tricks my 7 year old son would see through (maybe not war law, but hey you've gotta admit for old wise grand manipulaters these AS are pretty thick)

 

Something not-so-nice happened while I wasn't looking?

 

But still, damandred, I agree with you. We're not going to go any further with this debate, especially since it seems the whole scene in TAR wasn't that significant in RJ's view of the characters.He probably saw it as some "tough love", as you put it.

 

I absolutely agree with the other things you said as well.

 

I think Lucker's was probably referring to my tone. Though I hope it's taken as shock at people not agreeing to what's written than disgust with the people who disagree.

 

Oddly enough, I also agree with demandred. But doesn't that kinda go to my point of people reviling Egwene when even the supposed victim does not? That's one thing I've never understood. I just don't think people get how their relationship works. If it's not one you'd like then fine, but that doesn't make Egwene a bad person if that's how their social contract is setup... I mean, most of this stuff she learned from Nynaeve. But because Nynaeve is a healer it's ok for her, but Egwene is a politician so she's just sleazy when doing the same things? I get that a lot when I'm defend her, the whole "Well Nynaeve cares for everyone and everything!" Well so does Egwene, but she uses her own talents, which happen to not be healing. I'm sorry politics has such an ugly stigma on it, but that does not invalidate her intentions.

 

How does she do it? With a calm voice, friendly attitude and some other TaR related advice(last one only for Nyn and Elayne).

 

She did not like being in this room either. Why had Egwene suggested meeting here? Elaida’s study might not be the most comfortable place to be, but it was better than this.

 

A moment later, Egwene was there, on the other side of the broad table, eyes icy and hands on her hips as if she was the room’s rightful occupant.

 

Before Nynaeve could open her mouth, Egwene said, “Have you two brainless flap-tongues become witless ninnies? If I ask you to keep something to yourselves, do you immediately tell the first person you meet? Did it never occur to you that you don’t have to tell everyone everything? I thought you two were good at keeping secrets.” Nynaeve’s cheeks grew warmer; at least she could not possibly be as scarlet as Elayne. Egwene was not quite finished. “As for how I did it, I can’t teach you. You have to be a Dreamwalker. If you can touch somebody’s dreams with the ring, I don’t know how. And I doubt you can with that other thing. Try to keep your mind on what you’re doing. Salidar may be nothing like you expect. Now, I also have things to do tonight. At least try to keep your wits about you!” And she was gone so suddenly the last word almost seemed to come from empty air.

FoH, chapter 49.

 

Bow to her diplomatic skills.

 

Hrm, you beat me to this. I have gathered a bunch of quotes, this one included, of Nynaeve in, and talking about, TAR after the Egwene nightmare. But what you have left out is what followed this moment:

 

Embarassment ate at Nynaeve's anger. She had nearly burst out with it after Egwene asked her not to. And Birgitte, how could you keep a secret when the other woman knew? Embarassment won, and Saidar slipped away like sand through her fingers.

...

So much for redressing the balance. if only they had met anywhere else. If only she had not flapped her tounge like a brainless girl. It would have gone better if she had been using the ring, instead of being a wraith as far as the other woman was concerned. It was all Thom and Juilin's fault, and Uno's, if they had not made her angry. No, it was Neres' fault he...

She took the pitcher in both hands and washed her mouth. It was only the taste of sleep she was trying to get rid of, nothing like boiled cat fern and and powdered mavin's leaf - nothing at all.

 

Pretty clear Nynaeve knew she deserved it, she even LOST her anger over her own embarrassment over how foolish she was being. And Nynaeve can taste the "vile concoction" (as you put it) again because that's what she herself gave children back in the Two Rivers who lied, and when she lies or acts foolish, it reminds her of it. Oh she also blames everyone else in this scene EXCEPT Egwene, though it's pretty clear she's just avoiding the real target, which is herself, hence all the embarrassment.

 

Oh, and Egwene did indeed drop the subject and not care that Nynaeve had left out the truth at all. She said she had already figured what really happened because she knew Nynaeve would put the best face on a situation when recounting a story. You even bolded this part: "What we have to decide," Egwene said as if nothing at all had happened," <-- that means it was dropped

 

But then Nynaeve brought it up again (claiming she does not put the best face on things, which she later admits she does), and Egwene offered her the tea, because that's what Nynaeve would have done to a lying child in the two rivers. The suggestion on Egwene's part being that Egwene doesn't care, but if Nynaeve wanted someone to punish her, she could drink the stuff. It's similar to when Avi goes to the Wise Ones to have them punish her for lying to Rand on the basis of ji'e'toh, and the Wise Ones "gave her extra" for bothering them with an obligation that was not to them.

 

I'll reply to Himiko in another post with a few more quotes.

 

As for Egwene vs Cads or Moiraine, I wouldn't hold my breath much. She'll deal with them as she did with the rest of them, after they both kneel and kiss her ring.

 

As they should, since she's the Amyrlin and they are Aes Sedai right?

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Well said! It will be intresting to so how she is with cadsuane and morry). I think also if any AS try to lord it over morry coz of her loss of OP channeling abilty (like they did to suane) they will get a BIG shock. And so they should!

 

I really, really hope that if there is a meeting between Cadsuane/ Moiraine and Egwene (which I assume there will be) then it will be done well. We have evidence that these are two strong willed, intelligent women- if they get written as idiots so Egwene can look good then I will cry. I imagine they will have respect for each other (well, I'd hope so, anyway), whether they agree with each other on methods/ viewpoints or not, and I'd rather see it as a disagreement than pretty much every other Egwene vs *insert AS name here* we've had in the series.

 

That said, maybe they'll all agree with each other and get on great. Who knows?

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I tend to agree with the interpretation that the nightmare wasn't planned but was still meant as a distraction. Bear in mind that whilst Egwene was talking, she WAS preventing Nynaeve from speaking and returning to the topic at hand, but Nynaeve kept trying to interrupt her, up until the point Egwene summoned the nightmare. Given that Egwene's speech had cut off Nynaeve's question about whether she was allowed in TAR on her own, its not unreasonable for Egwene to assume that Nynaeve is going to go straight back to asking that question, especially given that she "flushed with embarassment" and is sure Nynaeve will manage to get it out of her. Once she summons the nightmare, Nynaeve is shocked into distraction, and pleading with Egwene, and afterwards, she talks about how she could have handled it herself- Egwene knows for certain at this stage that she has effectively moved Nynaeve's focus away from Egwene's ability/ permissions, and onto Nynaeve's.

 

I didn't say it was planned. I said it was part of the unplanned lecture. And yes, Nynaeve was trying to interject, but the interjections were NOT about whether or not Egwene was allowed into TAR by herself, they were Nynaeve arguign that she could indeed handle herself. I quoted what Nynaeve said BEFORE the nightmare. I'll do it again...

 

She changed herself back to herself in a good blue wool that she often worn for circle meetings and to put the council straight. She felt robed in all her old authority as wisdom. "I am well aware of how much I don't know," she said levelly, "but those aiel..."

 

See, Egwene let her get quite a few words in there. This means the distraction was probably over at this point. But what Nynaeve is doing is denying the dangers, and we know from Egwene's PoV she was not lying to Nynaeve, she believed every word, so Nynaeve's continued refusal to accept her wisdom is what made Egwene continue the lecture and introduce the nightmare. Thus, irrelevant to the distraction.

 

If it wasn't, and was genuinely meant to teach Nynaeve about her shortcomings in TAR, then why, given that it demonstrated a point, does she not use the exact same, or similar, display on Elayne? After all, Elayne also hops around TAR, and also has limited knowledge of the dangers. But Elayne doesn't question Egwene on whether she's allowed to be there or not, and is never treated the way Nynaeve was. Hence my conclusions: Egwene acted harshly throughout that scene, to cover up her lie to the WOs, and then to cement her apparent superiority over Nynaeve, perhaps to prevent the question from coming up again, perhaps because she enjoys it. She does not inflict the same treatment on others, even if they are at the same, or lower levels of skill.

 

Egwene would be silly to treat two _very_ different people the exact same way... Elayne doesn't need hard lessons the way Nynaeve does because Elayne doesn't refuse help or advice out-of-hand from those who are in the position to give it to her simply on reflex. Elayne didn't go charging after Moghedien either. Some people simply are capable of recognizing their own limitations. Also, Elayne does not jump around TAR the way Nynaeve does, and Egwene never catches her doing it IIRC? There's the one time Egwene finds her in the stone talking to Birgitte, but that's where they were supposed to meet anyway. And having a HoH with you isn't the same as being alone. The other time they're alone together it was Egwene's suggestion they meet in the novice rooms to talk privately, so why would she lecture Elayne for that? That's very different than finding Nynaeve in the Amyrlin's study by herself.

 

Edit: If Egwene did the same to Elayne I might actually feel the same way others do about it. Because the social contract between Elayne and Egwene is clearly quite different. She's the 'nice one', so to speak, and you should act accordingly. Like 2 friends who swear a lot among each other, and one who doesn't. It would be wrong for the one who does not to hold a grudge that the other two do it when they're not around, it's none of his/her business. But it would be similarly wrong to subject the third to their dirty mouths if they do indeed like that person and want them around now and then.

 

Bottom line, when Egwene tells Elayne "be careful" I assume it actually means something. When she says it to Nynaeve, it more likely would make the woman think she can be less careful because if Egwene can do something then certainly so can she. And do you want evidence of that?

 

She tried to make them vanish. If a wise one dreamwalker could, so could she

 

And here's another where we see Nynaeve hates not being as good as someone else at something:

 

Elayne did it finally, and Nynaeve congratulated her with as good grace as she could muster

 

Also, here's a quote (I think the ONLY quote) from Nynaeve remotely touching upon what Egwene had done to her:

 

Aside from the trips to Elaida's study they worked at learning control, of themselves and their surroundings in the world of dreams. Nynaeve did not mean to let herself be caught again as she had been by Egwene, and by the Wise Ones. Moghedien she tried not to think about. Much better to concentrate on the Wise Ones.

 

So Nynaeve took it as a challenge to better herself. How dare Egwene do that to her. I know this relates less to you Himiko, more to those who claim it put Nynaeve in "shock" and all the claims of sadism.

 

As I've said above, I think RJ intended this as a tipping of the balance, yes, but also as a precursor to Egwene's dealings with the Hall and other AS in Salidar. If she acted as she had before this point in the series, and shouted and sulked and sniped at anyone who tried to control her or tell her what to do, then she would very quickly have cemented her reputation as a child pawn, and would likely have acted as such. This is an early example of her using calm to get "on top" of a situation and a person, which is important to Egwene's later developments, I would say. Unfortunately, getting on top in this case meant covering up her own lie, humiliating her friend and then being delighted with the results.

 

Oh, I totally agree with the parrallel discussion that went on here about this being a 'coming of age' for her, and testing her boundaries with her 'elders'. And I agree her PoV thoughts in that direction make her look childish. But that's far from the disgusting act claimed by those I started this argument with. And it also doesn't have to include the nightmare, and textual evidence says that it doesn't. Your proof seems to be "it was part of the lecture." but just because the first few lines were said in haste for a particular purpose, does not mean the context of those words were similarly influenced, particularly since in Egwene's PoV she says she, "focused on what Nynaeve was doing wrong."

 

All that said, I found one quote you guys may be interested in, and despite your charges against me I do tend to be quite fair when there's actual evidence against my position, so when I caught this in my search I felt obligated to present it:

 

Egwene would not find it easy to bully a woman dressed so. Certainly not that that could have had anything to do with why she has doned it, even unconsciously.

 

It doesn't really changes anything for me. Though at one point I think asked for a line from Nynaeve thinking she was bullied, and there it is. Though I don't see how a dress would avoid nightmare torture. Pretty sure she's refering to the Egwene's tirade of talking, hence the dress. It's similar to when she "robed herself" in her wisdom authority. She tries anything to get the upper-hand back. Nynaeve also has a habit of exagerating in her PoVs, like in this scene:

 

Nynaeve was surprised Cerandin did not come, though in a way she was just as glad. Elayne might get alone famously with the woman, but since the incident where she had been assulted, Nynaeve had felt a tention whenever she was around her. Perhaps the more because Cerandin gave no outward sign of the same.

 

IIRC Nynaeve attacked first, and Cerandin taught her not to do that again.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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I have a feeling morry is going play a part in fixing things between rand and egwene, as they respect her. So maybe she can make eggy see rand "has to clear the rubble" on the DO s prison and maybe she has knowllage of how to do it right of the snakes for rand.

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Guest PiotrekS

 

Something not-so-nice happened while I wasn't looking?

 

But still, damandred, I agree with you. We're not going to go any further with this debate, especially since it seems the whole scene in TAR wasn't that significant in RJ's view of the characters.He probably saw it as some "tough love", as you put it.

 

I absolutely agree with the other things you said as well.

 

I think Lucker's was probably referring to my tone. Though I hope it's taken as shock at people not agreeing to what's written than disgust with the people who disagree.

 

Well, you might have been a little condescending. I personally don't mind that, because I have Egwene's self esteem :wink: and therefore very thick skin and I enjoy the passion with which you argue your points. But I guess it is best to concentrate on arguments alone. I also have to accept your reading of the scene which is very different from mine and I can't allow myself to be too shocked about it - it's a huge world, people are different, they see and understand things differently. Isn't it great that despite our differences we may meet on Dragonmount and discuss our different viewpoints about the series we all love? I get a lot of optimism from the fact that in today's world people can still be passionate about books, about good old-fashioned stories.

 

Oddly enough, I also agree with demandred. But doesn't that kinda go to my point of people reviling Egwene when even the supposed victim does not? That's one thing I've never understood. I just don't think people get how their relationship works. If it's not one you'd like then fine, but that doesn't make Egwene a bad person if that's how their social contract is setup... I mean, most of this stuff she learned from Nynaeve. But because Nynaeve is a healer it's ok for her, but Egwene is a politician so she's just sleazy when doing the same things? I get that a lot when I'm defend her, the whole "Well Nynaeve cares for everyone and everything!" Well so does Egwene, but she uses her own talents, which happen to not be healing. I'm sorry politics has such an ugly stigma on it, but that does not invalidate her intentions.

 

What the victim feels is not necessarily decisive in how we judge the perpetrator, e.g. a woman raped and abused by her husband may love her tormentor and defend him, saying that nothing happened or even that she deserved it. Have you read A Dance with Dragons btw? There is a certain character there who illustrates this point. Of course I'm not comparing Egwene to these examples! I'm only saying that sometimes the victim says it's ok while it in fact isn't. Or the victim is unaware what really happened or she is focused on other things. You yourself mentioned Stockholm Syndrome.

 

I personally think that Nynaeve feeling no traumatic effects is caused by RJ seeing this scene in similar way to you - that is, some tough love, no big deal, another power game the characters played. I personally, looking at the text, view it differently and I think that Nynaeve should have reacted stronger to what happened, when we realise what it actually was. So the events in the book lead me to view Egwene in a certain way, though I think that RJ did not intend this scene to have this effect. But that's literature - different interpretations are allowed and author's intent is not the only way we're allowed to read the story.

As for Egwene vs Cads or Moiraine, I wouldn't hold my breath much. She'll deal with them as she did with the rest of them, after they both kneel and kiss her ring.

 

As they should, since she's the Amyrlin and they are Aes Sedai right?

 

Yes and no. That's true that she is their leader and therfore due their respect and obedience, but there are also matters of age, experience and worthiness of different persons to consider. Take for example Lini - she addressed Morgase and Elayne very improperly, but they did not behead her because they felt she'd earned the right to call them by name. The wise ruler should know that she can and must expect respet from everyone, but not from everyone in the same manner. Yes, Egwene is the Amyrlin, but e.g. Cadsuane is much older and wiser, Moiraine is much more meritorious in the War against the Shadow, Nynaeve is her former teacher and mentor, Gawyn is supposedly her lover. So she should expect them to uphold her authority in public or in political games, but she shouldn't try to dominate their private contacts with her public, official persona.

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Yes and no. That's true that she is their leader and therfore due their respect and obedience, but there are also matters of age, experience and worthiness of different persons to consider. Take for example Lini - she addressed Morgase and Elayne very improperly, but they did not behead her because they felt she'd earned the right to call them by name. The wise ruler should know that she can and must expect respet from everyone, but not from everyone in the same manner. Yes, Egwene is the Amyrlin, but e.g. Cadsuane is much older and wiser, Moiraine is much more meritorious in the War against the Shadow, Nynaeve is her former teacher and mentor, Gawyn is supposedly her lover. So she should expect them to uphold her authority in public or in political games, but she shouldn't try to dominate their private contacts with her public, official persona.

 

I think this is true, and I hope Egwene will start leaning in this direction (I'd also chuck Siuan's name in there as well). I'm of the opinion that the more power a person gains, the more they need people to stand up to them, and be honest with them, especially to the point of disagreeing where necessary. For example: its pretty clear that without Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Min, etc. around Rand, there would have been even more destruction than happened in the books- the Borderlander army, for starters. Now, Nynaeve has gone to the WT, but Rand still has his advisors around him who, in some cases, WILL disagree with him, or give him advice when necessary- I don't think it would hurt him to have a few more, either. The Seanchan royal family have actual political stations for people to do just this for their members. But Egwene, and indeed other Amyrlins that we've seen, don't seem to have this so much. I mean, they have obstacles to overcome, they know that not every AS will agree with their decision, but its usually presented as something that has to be gotten around, rather than listened to. Obviously in some cases this idea has merit- Siuan and Moiraine seeking out the DR, for example- but Egwene does seem to take dissent and disagreement from other AS (and Gawyn) to be measures of disrespect or stubbornness, or simply being wrong, rather than something she should listen to. I don't know if this was an unintentional suggestion by the author, but at times it does come across a bit like "You need people around you willing to question your decisions and stand up to you- unless you're the Amyrlin Seat, in which case to do so is to show disrespect, or just be wrong." Still, perhaps the events with Gawyn were leading up to a realisation that this isn't the way to go, and we'll see that reflected more in the next book...

 

OK, that was rambly... basically, yes, I agree with what you said. Public respect is a good thing for AS to express to their leader, exceptional circumstances aside (I think Elaida could have done with some tough love rather than respect :P), but expecting that close friends and lovers should treat you in private as they would in public is also stretching it. In public, you are their leader, they the followers, in private, you are friends/ lovers. If, in private, you require them to treat you like their leader, then you're not really friends/ lovers, as such, IMO.

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I'd just like to toss out my opinion. Yes, it sounds mean, but I mean it in a fairly light-hearted manner.

 

Egwene was harsh with Nynaeve. Get over it. My friends have hurt me more than three shallow scratches, and you know what? I forgave them sooner or later and sometimes even agreed they were right. You guys who are talking psychological damage are over-analyzing their relationship. When I was younger, several of my good friends constantly made fun of me for not being able to do a backflip; they knew I could do it and knew I wanted to do it, but I was terrified. Were they wrong to pick on me? Their taunting got pretty harsh at some points, but I honestly do not think they were wrong; I can now backflip on demand. Who is to tell me I do not understand my relationship with my friends? If Nynaeve does not hate Egwene for what she's done, then I'm willing to let them do as they will; this argument has gone on a bit too long in my book.

 

You are welcome to agree or disagree with this opinion to your heart's content. :wink:

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balance of power between egwene and nynaeve shifted in their TAR meeting in TOM. Not before that.

 

Actually I would say that that was the moment when Nyneave accepted the shift in power. The actual shift in power really happened more in LoC, but Nyneave tried to pretend otherwise.

 

This kind of got me thinking.

 

I'll agree that Egwene established herself as Nynaeve's social and moral superior in FOH, with Nynaeve accepting it. Whether or not that's the case from an outsider's perspective isn't relevant, it's how those two women saw their relationship. However, except for a brief moment in LOC, I don't think that Nynaeve saw Egwene as her legal superior. She was aware of it, certainly, but I don't think that it really hit home. She did what Egwene asked not because Egwene was the Amyrlin Seat, but because Egwene the friend in charge asked her to. While Nynaeve was with Rand, Cadsuane, Verin, and the other Aes Sedai that attached themselves to the Dragon rather than getting involved in the Tower conflict (willingly or otherwise), she put other priorities ahead of Egwene her friend.

 

Egwene righted the ship by reminding Nynaeve of her temporal authority. Nynaeve recognized Egwene's authority, and returned to Tar Valon. There, she took her test.

 

After Nynaeve's test, I think that the balance between Egwene and Nynaeve has shifted again; I don't think that Nynaeve is aware of the shift, I think that Egwene is very much aware of the shift. I think that going forward, Nynaeve will recognize Egwene's temporal authority over her, but if there's a conflict between Egwene's authority and what Nynaeve believes is right, Nynaeve will go with what she believes is right and not second guess herself. Nynaeve will follow Egwene without hesitation on the small stuff. But if a big thing comes up and Egwene and Nynaeve disagree, Nynaeve is not going to allow Egwene to dictate her actions, even if it means being stripped of her shawl and losing her friend.

 

As I said, I think that Egwene is aware of this, but if and how it affects her decision making remains to be seen.

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I think nynaeve is more for rand then egwene anyway. She believes him about breaking the seals, is honoured that rand has picked her to go to SG. Plus if rand gave her an army to help Lan Egwene would be left eating her dust.

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As for Egwene vs Cads or Moiraine, I wouldn't hold my breath much. She'll deal with them as she did with the rest of them, after they both kneel and kiss her ring.

 

As they should, since she's the Amyrlin and they are Aes Sedai right?

 

Yes and no. That's true that she is their leader and therfore due their respect and obedience, but there are also matters of age, experience and worthiness of different persons to consider. Take for example Lini - she addressed Morgase and Elayne very improperly, but they did not behead her because they felt she'd earned the right to call them by name. The wise ruler should know that she can and must expect respet from everyone, but not from everyone in the same manner. Yes, Egwene is the Amyrlin, but e.g. Cadsuane is much older and wiser, Moiraine is much more meritorious in the War against the Shadow, Nynaeve is her former teacher and mentor, Gawyn is supposedly her lover. So she should expect them to uphold her authority in public or in political games, but she shouldn't try to dominate their private contacts with her public, official persona.

 

I don't know that Egwene will "dominate" their private contacts, but I guess we'll see. Though listening doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree. So I could see that future argument getting ugly too... depending on who you think was right. Just like IRL politics.

 

As for showing the proper respect to the office, Lini is a very different case. She has a very unique position as the nurse and I think most people can see why that would impact her view of the queens and heirs she has served. Moir and Cads are still just Aes Sedai. Lots of Aes Sedai have wisdom to offer, and they should all be listened to just as they should all be kissing rings and bowing, because that's what they, as an organization, have agreed they should do. Otherwise you're showing favouritism. Fairly certain Moir won't mind, she did it for Siuan in public. Cads may be more defiant, though she could just claim she's a retired consultant ;)

 

Like I'd bet the keeper bows and curtsies much less to the Amyrlin than most Aes Sedai just by nature of her being around all the time and you'd probably hurt yourself.

 

I'd just like to toss out my opinion. Yes, it sounds mean, but I mean it in a fairly light-hearted manner.

 

Egwene was harsh with Nynaeve. Get over it. My friends have hurt me more than three shallow scratches, and you know what? I forgave them sooner or later and sometimes even agreed they were right. You guys who are talking psychological damage are over-analyzing their relationship. When I was younger, several of my good friends constantly made fun of me for not being able to do a backflip; they knew I could do it and knew I wanted to do it, but I was terrified. Were they wrong to pick on me? Their taunting got pretty harsh at some points, but I honestly do not think they were wrong; I can now backflip on demand. Who is to tell me I do not understand my relationship with my friends? If Nynaeve does not hate Egwene for what she's done, then I'm willing to let them do as they will; this argument has gone on a bit too long in my book.

 

You are welcome to agree or disagree with this opinion to your heart's content. :wink:

 

Finally someone else with abusive, yet awesome, friends. I really didn't think it was so rare as it seems to be given peoples revulsion with that scene. Maybe because it's a book it's different to see it written down so plainly. You normally expect friends to just be nice to each other and any deviation is bad, but not really. I think the fact that Nynaeve was TRYING to provoke Egwene to anger says a lot about where those two are usually comfortable with each other.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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Guest PiotrekS

As for Egwene vs Cads or Moiraine, I wouldn't hold my breath much. She'll deal with them as she did with the rest of them, after they both kneel and kiss her ring.

 

As they should, since she's the Amyrlin and they are Aes Sedai right?

 

Yes and no. That's true that she is their leader and therfore due their respect and obedience, but there are also matters of age, experience and worthiness of different persons to consider. Take for example Lini - she addressed Morgase and Elayne very improperly, but they did not behead her because they felt she'd earned the right to call them by name. The wise ruler should know that she can and must expect respet from everyone, but not from everyone in the same manner. Yes, Egwene is the Amyrlin, but e.g. Cadsuane is much older and wiser, Moiraine is much more meritorious in the War against the Shadow, Nynaeve is her former teacher and mentor, Gawyn is supposedly her lover. So she should expect them to uphold her authority in public or in political games, but she shouldn't try to dominate their private contacts with her public, official persona.

 

I don't know that Egwene will "dominate" their private contacts, but I guess we'll see. Though listening doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree. So I could see that future argument getting ugly too... depending on who you think was right. Just like IRL politics.

 

As for showing the proper respect to the office, Lini is a very different case. She has a very unique position as the nurse and I think most people can see why that would impact her view of the queens and heirs she has served. Moir and Cads are still just Aes Sedai. Lots of Aes Sedai have wisdom to offer, and they should all be listened to just as they should all be kissing rings and bowing, because that's what they, as an organization, have agreed they should do. Otherwise you're showing favouritism. Fairly certain Moir won't mind, she did it for Siuan in public. Cads may be more defiant, though she could just claim she's a retired consultant ;)

 

Like I'd bet the keeper bows and curtsies much less to the Amyrlin than most Aes Sedai just by nature of her being around all the time and you'd probably hurt yourself.

 

I think Cadsuane would see showing respect to the Amyrlin as the simple courtesy - a thing that she cares for and won't be making any defiant gestures. On the other hand, a classy Amyrlin would make some gestures herself to show her own respect for older, wiser and more meritorious sisters. Something similar to Aragorn's words towards the hobbits at the end of the Return of the King movie: "My friends, you kneel for no one"

 

I'd just like to toss out my opinion. Yes, it sounds mean, but I mean it in a fairly light-hearted manner.

 

Egwene was harsh with Nynaeve. Get over it. My friends have hurt me more than three shallow scratches, and you know what? I forgave them sooner or later and sometimes even agreed they were right. You guys who are talking psychological damage are over-analyzing their relationship. When I was younger, several of my good friends constantly made fun of me for not being able to do a backflip; they knew I could do it and knew I wanted to do it, but I was terrified. Were they wrong to pick on me? Their taunting got pretty harsh at some points, but I honestly do not think they were wrong; I can now backflip on demand. Who is to tell me I do not understand my relationship with my friends? If Nynaeve does not hate Egwene for what she's done, then I'm willing to let them do as they will; this argument has gone on a bit too long in my book.

 

You are welcome to agree or disagree with this opinion to your heart's content. :wink:

 

Finally someone else with abusive, yet awesome, friends. I really didn't think it was so rare as it seems to be given peoples revulsion with that scene. Maybe because it's a book it's different to see it written down so plainly. You normally expect friends to just be nice to each other and any deviation is bad, but not really. I think the fact that Nynaeve was TRYING to provoke Egwene to anger says a lot about where those two are usually comfortable with each other.

 

I think it is all a matter of degree. Our tolerance is varied, depending also on our sympathy to particular characters. We're willing to forgive more those characters who we like and the other way round.

Edited by PiotrekS

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I wonder if RJ deliberately wrote Egwene as unsympathetic or at least, somebody who has some unpleasant character traits?

I think he definitely did that with Cadsuane, for instance.

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the thing with the friends angle, is that usually friends do thigns to help each other (somewhat frequently) I have not seen many instances of this. More its just abuse, then the other character forgets it after a while.

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the thing with the friends angle, is that usually friends do thigns to help each other (somewhat frequently) I have not seen many instances of this. More its just abuse, then the other character forgets it after a while.

I think there may be a cultural barrier here. The only time I expect my friends to help me is when I ask them or something is truly dire. Your post suggests you see it differently, atleast it does to me. Perhaps some of the Egwene controversy is a product of cultural bias?

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the thing with the friends angle, is that usually friends do thigns to help each other (somewhat frequently) I have not seen many instances of this. More its just abuse, then the other character forgets it after a while.

I think there may be a cultural barrier here. The only time I expect my friends to help me is when I ask them or something is truly dire. Your post suggests you see it differently, atleast it does to me. Perhaps some of the Egwene controversy is a product of cultural bias?

Im from a place where a friend wont do anything remotely close to what egwene did to nyn any of the times. It would be like if I almost let something slip to his gf about him cheating, so to teach me a lesson he hits me with his car or a baseball bat, enough to injure but not maim.

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Im from a place where a friend wont do anything remotely close to what egwene did to nyn any of the times. It would be like if I almost let something slip to his gf about him cheating, so to teach me a lesson he hits me with his car or a baseball bat, enough to injure but not maim.

Ohh no, I've already agreed what Egwene did to Nynaeve in that instance was harsh, but it doesn't quite fit your analogy. Nynaeve did need to learn the lesson that particular lesson after all, whether or not Egwene's method worked does not invalidate the intent (In my belief). However, it is apparent her method was skewed by her additional desire to keep Nynaeve from interfering. So it's more like stealing a friend's car for a few days to teach him not to leave his keys on the seat, but smashing his windshield too for nearly slipping up as per your example. (Note: I was raised in a way where I do not care how good of friends we are, I'm telling a girlfriend about the friend cheating on her. That's just how it would be done in my household, so I may not understand your analogy fully) It's still quite mean, but there is still a point to it beneath the vengeance/threat.

 

*Haha, I managed to go from disagreeing with both sides of one argument to starting a new, albeit much tamer yet somehow more personal, one. :tongue:

Edited by Hadilmir

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