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jwood01

When is the Dragon Reborn

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Lews Therin doesn't seem to have remembered any past lives. It might only happen once a Turning.

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The first time I notice Rand directly accessing LTT's memories is in chapter 2 of TFOH. The references to Can Breat and the image of Ilyena are open and obvious and take him aback.

 

However, while Rand spends a great deal of time worrying about going mad (almost as much time as Mat spends fearing that Rand is already insane--he's kind of a jerk about it, I think; it's one of the reasons I don't like Mat much), there is one incident in TDR that really sticks out for me. It's the brief scene where Rand encounters a woman and her entourage, and without warning and seemingly without cause, he just up and beheads her and slaughters the others, then makes their bodies kneel to him. It's not even suggested that the woman was a Darkfriend, even though Rand obviously thought she was. Rand makes the first move. It is such a freaky scene, and although I understand that Rand is at a particularly paranoid time of his life then, alone and hunted by Darkhounds, this is still the one truly insane action he takes (that I can recall). I know that it haunts him--I think it's the main reason he's reluctant to kill female Forsaken or risk the Maidens--but as a moment in his life it seems particularly bizarre and isolated. Really, what was that all about?

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The first time I notice Rand directly accessing LTT's memories is in chapter 2 of TFOH. The references to Can Breat and the image of Ilyena are open and obvious and take him aback.

 

However, while Rand spends a great deal of time worrying about going mad (almost as much time as Mat spends fearing that Rand is already insane--he's kind of a jerk about it, I think; it's one of the reasons I don't like Mat much), there is one incident in TDR that really sticks out for me. It's the brief scene where Rand encounters a woman and her entourage, and without warning and seemingly without cause, he just up and beheads her and slaughters the others, then makes their bodies kneel to him. It's not even suggested that the woman was a Darkfriend, even though Rand obviously thought she was. Rand makes the first move. It is such a freaky scene, and although I understand that Rand is at a particularly paranoid time of his life then, alone and hunted by Darkhounds, this is still the one truly insane action he takes (that I can recall). I know that it haunts him--I think it's the main reason he's reluctant to kill female Forsaken or risk the Maidens--but as a moment in his life it seems particularly bizarre and isolated. Really, what was that all about?

1. Encroaching insanity (whether from taint or pressure or both).

 

2. Link with Ishamael was actually forged at Falme, with the wound. After his death, Ishamael was just riding around in Rand's body until the Dark One found a new one for him. Ishamael flees just in time to escape the Fain wound.

 

3. Rand had reason to believe she was a Darkfriend. He knew he was being hunted. We just don't see much of that because we don't get his POV much. Most of what we see of Rand in TDR is in Perrin's POV. Anyway. RJ himself said that the Gray Man was supposed to show us that Rand wasn't just paranoid.

Edited by Terez

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The first time I notice Rand directly accessing LTT's memories is in chapter 2 of TFOH. The references to Can Breat and the image of Ilyena are open and obvious and take him aback.

 

However, while Rand spends a great deal of time worrying about going mad (almost as much time as Mat spends fearing that Rand is already insane--he's kind of a jerk about it, I think; it's one of the reasons I don't like Mat much), there is one incident in TDR that really sticks out for me. It's the brief scene where Rand encounters a woman and her entourage, and without warning and seemingly without cause, he just up and beheads her and slaughters the others, then makes their bodies kneel to him. It's not even suggested that the woman was a Darkfriend, even though Rand obviously thought she was. Rand makes the first move. It is such a freaky scene, and although I understand that Rand is at a particularly paranoid time of his life then, alone and hunted by Darkhounds, this is still the one truly insane action he takes (that I can recall). I know that it haunts him--I think it's the main reason he's reluctant to kill female Forsaken or risk the Maidens--but as a moment in his life it seems particularly bizarre and isolated. Really, what was that all about?

1. Encroaching insanity (whether from taint or pressure or both).

 

2. Link with Ishamael was actually forged at Falme, with the wound. After his death, Ishamael was just riding around in Rand's body until the Dark One found a new one for him. Ishamael flees just in time to escape the Fain wound.

 

3. Rand had reason to believe she was a Darkfriend. He knew he was being hunted. We just don't see much of that because we don't get his POV much. Most of what we see of Rand in TDR is in Perrin's POV. Anyway. RJ himself said that the Gray Man was supposed to show us that Rand wasn't just paranoid.

 

Didn't know that about Ishy riding Rand's body between the end of TDR and the appearance of Moridin ... is that an established fact, or just conjecture?

 

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you ... especially if you're the Dragon Reborn! What I wonder is this: were the woman and her retainers Darkfriends or not? If they were, fine, though I fail to see how we readers know this (unless it is revealed much further down the line). If they weren't, then Rand murdered innocent people and made their corpses pay him obeisance. That's more than encroaching early-onset insanity from the taint or from pressure. That's full blown psychosis, and it's more than a little strange to me that he recovers from it. It's downright disturbing, in fact.

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...

My wondering has always been, that if the taint weren't a factor, and there were no schizophrenic outcomes - and Rand was totally sane - would he still end up having access to those memories somehow down the line, or does it run along the lines that Rand would just be the incarnation of the Dragon soul, spun out like a hero of the horn with only the memories from his present life, for example.

...

Rand regaining his memories was Foretold by the Borderlanders. Whether the insanity assisted or hindered, caused or was the result of, this process is uncertain. What we do know is that the Taint is not required.

 

The Taint it not required for any form of insanity.

 

I don't think that's what he's implying. More that the taint isn't required for memory seepage (as per Graendal's patients).

 

What Terez said, thanks. Plus, I wasn't trying to suggest any theory, just laying down some facts to go along with @Mat's ponderings. When I was typing it out, everthing was clear in my mind's eye but now when I read it, it took me a while to figure out what my point was. :D

 

 

 

At one point I also wondered if it was a specific trait of the Dragon soul that they, the various incarnations thereof, would always have that generational memory of past lives...whether induced by a taint-style insanity, or for instance an epiphany moment, like a veins of gold/grandiose integration scene.

 

As though that trait of acquired generational memory was a hallmark of what it was that made the Dragon, the Dragon.

 

I think it is. He was destined to regain his memories for this cycle. From the wolves' perspective, VoG happens every time before the Last Battle begins. Which means before every Last Battle, Rand (by Rand I mean whatever Dragon incarnation) is on the verge of either destroying everything or accepting his role. (Don't ask me how the wolves know this.) Combine this with how Rand states he is no longer blind, and how blindness was a major theme throughout the book, and how important the memories were to his decision in VoG, and how naturally everything comes to him now that he has his memories, it seems his memories are always the focal point of his character.

 

Also, it seems every cycle something drives Rand to the edge of reason such that he would want to destroy the Wheel. Is he always insane at this point? Or might insanity not be a factor in some cycles and say someone kills his Min/Elayne/Aviendha equivalent and he's just really pissed off? We'll probably never know. And how does the Taint figure into this? Is the male half always Tainted every cycle? I don't think so because it seems odd to me that the Dark One's touch would be a part of the Wheel's cycle instead of the Wheel compensating for it. But maybe that's just how this dance is danced.

 

Which is why I'm somewhat confused by Rand's line of reason in VoG. Every cycle, Rand gets a chance to "do it right this time." But what happens when he does it right? Does the cycle start all over again? I'm hoping that there actually is a way for the Light side to win once and for all and that so far it has been a draw for both sides. Otherwise, what's the point? Whether Rand does it right or wrong the cycle continues. Ishamael's got it right, then. Best to end it.

 

 

 

Lews Therin doesn't seem to have remembered any past lives. It might only happen once a Turning.

Rand seems to only remember Lews Therin's memories now. Lews Therin's lack of previous memories can be explained if Rand is a direct continuation of Lews Therin (and not just the Dragon soul). As far as we know, Lews Therin was never Anyone Reborn. He was not a direct continuation of a previous incarnation and therefore would not have that incarnation's memories. I was going to say "maybe he doesn't need them" but it just occurred to me that maybe he was always meant to screw up.

 

Best to end it. Less suffering that way. Can you tell Ishy's my fav?

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Didn't know that about Ishy riding Rand's body between the end of TDR and the appearance of Moridin ... is that an established fact, or just conjecture?

It was more of a joke than anything else.

 

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you ... especially if you're the Dragon Reborn! What I wonder is this: were the woman and her retainers Darkfriends or not? If they were, fine, though I fail to see how we readers know this (unless it is revealed much further down the line).

Yes, they were Darkfriends. And like I said, RJ intended the Gray Man to be a clue to us that they were.

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...

My wondering has always been, that if the taint weren't a factor, and there were no schizophrenic outcomes - and Rand was totally sane - would he still end up having access to those memories somehow down the line, or does it run along the lines that Rand would just be the incarnation of the Dragon soul, spun out like a hero of the horn with only the memories from his present life, for example.

...

Rand regaining his memories was Foretold by the Borderlanders. Whether the insanity assisted or hindered, caused or was the result of, this process is uncertain. What we do know is that the Taint is not required.

 

The Taint it not required for any form of insanity.

 

I don't think that's what he's implying. More that the taint isn't required for memory seepage (as per Graendal's patients).

 

What Terez said, thanks. Plus, I wasn't trying to suggest any theory, just laying down some facts to go along with @Mat's ponderings. When I was typing it out, everthing was clear in my mind's eye but now when I read it, it took me a while to figure out what my point was. :D

 

 

 

At one point I also wondered if it was a specific trait of the Dragon soul that they, the various incarnations thereof, would always have that generational memory of past lives...whether induced by a taint-style insanity, or for instance an epiphany moment, like a veins of gold/grandiose integration scene.

 

As though that trait of acquired generational memory was a hallmark of what it was that made the Dragon, the Dragon.

 

I think it is. He was destined to regain his memories for this cycle. From the wolves' perspective, VoG happens every time before the Last Battle begins. Which means before every Last Battle, Rand (by Rand I mean whatever Dragon incarnation) is on the verge of either destroying everything or accepting his role. (Don't ask me how the wolves know this.) Combine this with how Rand states he is no longer blind, and how blindness was a major theme throughout the book, and how important the memories were to his decision in VoG, and how naturally everything comes to him now that he has his memories, it seems his memories are always the focal point of his character.

 

Also, it seems every cycle something drives Rand to the edge of reason such that he would want to destroy the Wheel. Is he always insane at this point? Or might insanity not be a factor in some cycles and say someone kills his Min/Elayne/Aviendha equivalent and he's just really pissed off? We'll probably never know. And how does the Taint figure into this? Is the male half always Tainted every cycle? I don't think so because it seems odd to me that the Dark One's touch would be a part of the Wheel's cycle instead of the Wheel compensating for it. But maybe that's just how this dance is danced.

 

Which is why I'm somewhat confused by Rand's line of reason in VoG. Every cycle, Rand gets a chance to "do it right this time." But what happens when he does it right? Does the cycle start all over again? I'm hoping that there actually is a way for the Light side to win once and for all and that so far it has been a draw for both sides. Otherwise, what's the point? Whether Rand does it right or wrong the cycle continues. Ishamael's got it right, then. Best to end it.

 

 

 

Lews Therin doesn't seem to have remembered any past lives. It might only happen once a Turning.

Rand seems to only remember Lews Therin's memories now. Lews Therin's lack of previous memories can be explained if Rand is a direct continuation of Lews Therin (and not just the Dragon soul). As far as we know, Lews Therin was never Anyone Reborn. He was not a direct continuation of a previous incarnation and therefore would not have that incarnation's memories. I was going to say "maybe he doesn't need them" but it just occurred to me that maybe he was always meant to screw up.

 

Best to end it. Less suffering that way. Can you tell Ishy's my fav?

 

In VofG Rand inherits (for want of a better word) the memories of "hundreds of lives". In 'Apples First, Ch1: TofM he tells Almen Bunt something about looking (at memories) too closely and getting burnt. My point is that not only does Rand have the memories of LTT which is just one of his incarnations, but the memories of all his lives.

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No, he had them for a moment. He doesn't remember all those lives, or he'd know how to seal the Dark One's prison. He wasn't concentrating on that when he had the momentary epiphany - he was thinking about love.

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he picked up how to play the flute quick so wouldnt that be the first time?

 

 

Seems to me that that was just natural aptitude.

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Is it possible that, due to a hypothetical absence of the taint, Rand would have at some point just gained access to memories much in the sense that Mat has? And that the voice of Lews Therin just is how his madness handles the whole "one soul of two people in one body"-thing?

 

After all they weren't, and had never been, two people. Rand had just perceived it that way.

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