Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
The Don

Good will always win, because evil is dumb!

Recommended Posts

Ok, I know this is a useless post because in no story EVER does the bad guy win, and it will probably never happen. But what the F??? The bad guys always have the coolest stuff, and the most powerful people, and somehow bumble their way to grabbing defeat from certain victory. From Skeletor and Mumm-Ra f-ing up the most powerful objects or totally forgetting a spell or something that came close to winning to our very own Moridin not doing things right, they always seem to do the wrong thing at the wrong time. For instance... why, if gholam were used as Aes Sedai hunters in the AoL, did Moridin not send one after Rand instead of Mat? Rand would have no defense... unless balefire works on them, which I don't think it does. Why would Slayer be sent to Perrin, who can use T'A'R, instead of say... Mat? That leaves only Perrin, who any Forsaken could spank up and down outside the World of Dreams. So now that the 3 biggest threats are gone... the world is essentially(sp?) in the Shadow's hands.

 

Not really sure what to expect in response except maybe... "well Rand is the most powerful! Not any Shadowsworn!" I know this. And I know its a story. But if not having the bad guy win, could we at least think there is a chance a bad guy could win?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I know this is a useless post because in no story EVER does the bad guy win, and it will probably never happen.

 

For a flip around of the norm check out Banewreaker by Jacqueline Carey or better yet The First Law series by Joe Abercrombie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

true, i nthis series there isnt really a sense that the bad guys CAN win. we all now they wont, but at least we need the suspense of thinking that they WILL win. how can the Light lose? even if millions of trollocs came south, the combined armies and hordes of channelers the Light has will beat them fairly easily, and the forsaken are simply outnumbered 500-to-1 by the Light channelers.

 

how can the shadow win?

 

the empire was about to destroy the rebellion, Sauron was about to kill the remaining Free Peoples, all bad guys are about to win when they get spanked. it is suspenseful, but there is little such suspense in Wheel of Time when the main character can effortlessly identify Darkfriends and slaughter armies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I know this is a useless post because in no story EVER does the bad guy win, and it will probably never happen. But what the F??? The bad guys always have the coolest stuff, and the most powerful people, and somehow bumble their way to grabbing defeat from certain victory. From Skeletor and Mumm-Ra f-ing up the most powerful objects or totally forgetting a spell or something that came close to winning to our very own Moridin not doing things right, they always seem to do the wrong thing at the wrong time. For instance... why, if gholam were used as Aes Sedai hunters in the AoL, did Moridin not send one after Rand instead of Mat? Rand would have no defense... unless balefire works on them, which I don't think it does. Why would Slayer be sent to Perrin, who can use T'A'R, instead of say... Mat? That leaves only Perrin, who any Forsaken could spank up and down outside the World of Dreams. So now that the 3 biggest threats are gone... the world is essentially(sp?) in the Shadow's hands.

 

Not really sure what to expect in response except maybe... "well Rand is the most powerful! Not any Shadowsworn!" I know this. And I know its a story. But if not having the bad guy win, could we at least think there is a chance a bad guy could win?

 

Moridin didn't send gollum after Mat, it was Sammael. Sammael was after the ter'agreal cache in Ebou Dar, and Elyene and Nynaeve popped up there and he was with them so Sammael sent it after them. Gollum merely made him priority because he was able to inflict harm on it, like a vendetta. After Sammael died, it's last standing order was to go after them, and made Mat a point of great interest.

 

And, only very late did Ishamael/Moridin reveal Mat's and Perrin's faces to the other Forsaken. Semirhage comments on this and says maybe if he had shared this info earlier they could have been dead, she reffers to Mat being within her reach in Ebou Dar.

 

Isam/Slayer wasn't sent against Perrin, he was given to Graendal as guard for the Dream Spike. And it's not actually certain if the bad guys new of Perrin being able to "Dreamwalk" through the "Wolfdream". So, I'll argue that, they didn't know he could.

 

All in all, it's just that Moridin miss appropriated his resources and information wrong, and that's that.

Edited by mackoY-kun

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bad guys win more often outside the multiple door-stopper fantasy genre, true. And annoyingly, as yet we're still not sure of the overall plan for Team Dark.

 

In some ways this is acknowledged and deconstructed in several ways in WoT: ta'veran being the most obvious. On the other side, I would want to read the story RJ blogged about: the one where everything is hanging by a thread for team light, and they need a miracle just to avoid total annihilation yet alone victory :) We might yet find out about more successful actions of the shadow in AMoL, and if we didn't get glimpses of villains so often it would be ok...

 

ETA: If you think WoT has Mary-Sue heroes, there's a huge list of fantasy authors/titles to avoid :)

Edited by Cybertrolloc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I know this is a useless post because in no story EVER does the bad guy win, and it will probably never happen. But what the F??? The bad guys always have the coolest stuff, and the most powerful people, and somehow bumble their way to grabbing defeat from certain victory. From Skeletor and Mumm-Ra f-ing up the most powerful objects or totally forgetting a spell or something that came close to winning to our very own Moridin not doing things right, they always seem to do the wrong thing at the wrong time. For instance... why, if gholam were used as Aes Sedai hunters in the AoL, did Moridin not send one after Rand instead of Mat? Rand would have no defense... unless balefire works on them, which I don't think it does. Why would Slayer be sent to Perrin, who can use T'A'R, instead of say... Mat? That leaves only Perrin, who any Forsaken could spank up and down outside the World of Dreams. So now that the 3 biggest threats are gone... the world is essentially(sp?) in the Shadow's hands.

 

Not really sure what to expect in response except maybe... "well Rand is the most powerful! Not any Shadowsworn!" I know this. And I know its a story. But if not having the bad guy win, could we at least think there is a chance a bad guy could win?

 

along wiv what everone else has said.. i dont think they properly tried to kill rand becuase the dark one wanted to turn him to the shadow.. like i think that is part of the reason mordin saved him in CoS firstly cos rand being alive for the moment like wud cause more havoc.. and there was the posibility of essensally turning him to the shadow wiv out rand knowing he was doing bad.. (like wen he was going to destroy the world in VoG)..

that why i think rand wasn't killed..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out Grunts, by Mary Gentle. It's a bit of a spoof of High Fantasy but it's told from an Ork's POV. The Evulz dont always lose, and the Good isnt very good, either. The obligitory Last Battle is in the first few chapters, but it's what comes after is key to the story...and then aliens...yeah, it's brutal fun :)

Edited by Lurk31

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, the suspense of these books has rarely been about whether or not the Shadow will win. Its about the damage they will cause. And, up til ToM, how much damage Rand himself would cause. How about only a few thousand wetlanders survive TG and as many were Darkfriends before Rand "freed" them?

 

True enough though I think the suspense is indeed less than it should be. Rand is too powerful. His power level was awesome when it was tied to insanity but now, I think hes TOO ready for the end.

 

Theres plenty of ways to up the ante for the last book though. I think a Graendal PoV in the prologue could be nice, especially if it was the last one, ending with her killing Alanna. Dark Rand returns please. Or he should get 13x13ed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I know this is a useless post because in no story EVER does the bad guy win, and it will probably never happen.

 

Not true. Not by a long shot. There's plenty of stories where the bad guys do win. Aside from the ones already mentioned here, I would add "Brave New World" and I'd dare say that in "A Song of Ice and Fire"...

 

 

There's not even a clear line to define the "good" from the "bad" guys. Plus, in that series, everyone gets their butt kicked real good, regardless of their "good" or "evil" nature.

 

 

 

Then again, that's why currently, George R.R. Martin's is the best fantasy series out there by far and wide. At least, IMO.

 

Concerning TWoT...well, I think the series is a bit on the juvenile side. I mean, let's face it, RJ was an outstanding writer (and Sanderson's no slouch himself, though I prefer his own books over his 2 TWoT efforts; the Mistborn Trilogy, especially), but the series is filled with just about any cliché you'll ever find in fantasy. That said, I think RJ was able to make excellent use of all of these all-too-clichéd motifs and elements.

 

I do admit that the series doesn't really offer much in the way of "grayness", shocking, unexpected developments, nor does it present the best villains out there. After 13 books, we're still waiting to see the death of one major "good guy". Nuff said, me thinks.

 

I really like these books and will continue collecting them till the story's done (though, IMO, they're only good for one read each) but, I certainly don't consider them the "be all, end all" of all things fantasy. Let alone, the standard in the genre. To me, TWoT is just good, clean fun to read whilst I wait for superior works (such as Martin's ASOIAF or Joe Abercrombie's, for instance) to fall into my lap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1984?

 

yes!

 

and animal farm. and brave new world. frankenstein. many stories in the bible (though we learn positive things, and perhaps positive things arise from the ashes, a lot of stories end badly for the good guys in the bible). metamorphosis. the rocking horse winner. almost everything shakespeare ever wrote. dead bodies right and left, good ones, bad ones, all piled up.

 

count movies and you have a million more.

 

maybe it's a fantasy thing. it would make sense. who wants to fantasize unhappy endings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In WoT it's more of a case of "Good is Dumb, but Evil is Dumber and Unlucky". Even with their dumb plans, the bad guys would've killed Rand 5 times already if not for some extreme luck helping him time after time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RJ did a whole blog post on Dumb Evil. Check it out. (Try looking in the Shadow category - there's also a similar rant in a letter to Carolyn Fusinato.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best-drawn baddy I have so far come across was Jesus Pietro Castro, from Niven's 'A Gift from Earth', which was all about the use of organ transplantation by a ruling class to control the 'lower' population. Castro was far from stupid, even though.. nvm. He made my flesh creep, and that's not easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bad Guys win often enough in real life, why would I want to read about it in fantasy as well? As someone mentioned above, it's not a question of how things will end, but what will happen on the way there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something else to consider is the fact that "good" tends to work together, and there is strength in numbers (although TWoT isn't playing up on this at all, dammit!). Also, they all have the same goal - survival/defeat of the DO.

 

The "bad" guys all have their own agendas and are only working together while their goals align, then are fully willing to work against/stab each other in the back as needed to further their own goals and become Naeblis.

 

This is the one huge factor (in my opinion) that good triumphs - we tend to align our goals. Evil doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends what book you're reading. Personally I think having the good guys win makes readers feel better about their lives, because they're made to relate to the character's struggles somewhat. I've been reading Game of Thrones and it has a really morbid outlook on human nature. Even the good guys have these all too human flaws that almost make you hate them as much as the "bad" guys (who win a lot).

 

 

Reading WoT had me looking at people in a really positive way, but Game of Thrones made me dislike people. In a way it's refreshing. You hope the characters will make better decisions, but you know it's not going to happen!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After Veins of Gold things really do look more hopeful for the Light. I suspect it was meant to be a major climax in the final book and we just saw it early because of the split. However, why are people saying that there was no suspense beforehand? Before Veins of Gold things were really bleak.

 

The Dark One has virtually unlimited numbers of Trollocs, all united under one banner. The Light has hundreds of thousands of troops, but they're all at each other's throats and would be pitifully outnumbered even if the Dragon, Amyrlin and Seanchan all started getting along (no small feat in itself). The Dark One has Shadowspawn we don't know anything about. Worms are apparently terrifying, bloodwrasps don't sound too friendly, and what about all the creatures the Forsaken just mention in passing? Moghedian thinking about being stuck in a cell with a "darath in moult", one of the Chosen being described (sorry I forgot which one, my memory is good but there are limits to my WoT-nerdiness :wink: ) being described as a "hissing correer, spitting venom"? We don't know what they would be like on the battlefield, but in TGH we see a possible future where Rand stayed in the Two Rivers and the Seanchan took over the world. They were thrown back by the Shadow's armies despite fielding the entire Ever Victorious Army, including the damane. Does this sound like the Light's channellers are going to have an easy time of things? Rand has had superior firepower since he took over Tear, but the Light's forces are as nothing to what is coming. Rand seems to have become enlightened now, so I could see him being able to stand up to the Dark One. Before Veins of Gold though? Forget it. He could have used the Choedan Kal, but there's indication that would have ended badly, and without it no one could have stood up to the Shadow.

 

Now, admittedly the point about the villains being dumb is valid. RJ wrote them that way deliberately-he talks about it in a couple of places that have been mentioned above. I get the impression there are good reasons for all of that, but it might have been nice to have them explained...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, admittedly the point about the villains being dumb is valid. RJ wrote them that way deliberately-he talks about it in a couple of places that have been mentioned above. I get the impression there are good reasons for all of that, but it might have been nice to have them explained...

 

I understand how authors will develop their vision and defend or justify the reasons behind it, because it works for them. After all, the story is theirs and they have the right to tell it as they see fit. Just like it's the reader's right to decide whether you like their work or not.

 

That said, this doesn't mean readers have to agree or go along with the author's justification/explanation, even when provided, only because the author has his/her reasons. The important thing is if those reasons work or not for each reader.

 

In this case...well, let's face it. After 13 books, the ineptness of the Forsaken is reaching laughable, cartoon-like levels, reminiscent of Wiley Coyote's failed efforts to catch the Road Runner. In other words, I just don't see any good reason to justify the Forsaken's ineptness. Could be there is one valid justification out there, but I seriously doubt it.

Edited by Darth Krewl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think TWOT is philosophical to a fault. There's no real winning. It's literally a wheel and there aren't any "big twists" because everything's happened before.

 

The bad guys win, 3000 years pass and the good guys win. The cycle begins again, DO gets free bad guys win, 3000 years after, blah blah blah.

 

I don't think there was ever a hope of the bad guys winning, ever. Moridin has to be delusional to claim that DO can't die, and believe that the DO can "win." It has to be buddahcycled 3052136512365235613350158631265130562 x 15862135320137175327523547832 times. I think there's no winning, else someone would have pulled it off within the last seventy five kazillion years.

 

On top of the forsaken being a bit slow in the head, everyone in TWOT is typically mentally retarded. People in reality are pretty stupid sometimes, but TWOT characters are so retarded that even the brilliant ones spend at least half their lives doing the world's most stupid things. I enjoyed the "real" feeling characters gave off at first, but it's been taken to a place where it feels like the world would've fallen apart from sheer stupidity at this point.

Edited by cookiecrisp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the Dark One ever got free, that'd be that. No--next cycle it all begins again. The Wheel of Time would be destroyed and the cycle of the Ages ended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think TWOT is philosophical to a fault. There's no real winning. It's literally a wheel and there aren't any "big twists" because everything's happened before.

 

No it hasn't, as RJ said:

 

This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...