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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Ummm how about the creation of the Fade's swords?

 

This is the worst one for me, with the family being ripped apart including the children. The implication of the children's deaths really hit me hard.

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Looks like the dark one resurrected this thread :baalzamon:

Hmmm how about the Tinkers turned Aiel, necessary for prophecy but a breaking of beliefs and spirit. :sad:

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Unfortunately, only the bad guys ever get killed in these books (which is kinda unrealistic, but whatevs). But some of the deaths or near-deaths are really terrible (albeit deserved in some cases). But which fates stand out as the worse?

 

I'd say Mesaana's brain getting scrambled has to be one of the top contenders. She's not dead, she's just dumb, literally, and it's a fate she'd have to endure until she dies. Definitely not the life of glory a Chosen would envision.

 

Also, the gholam that gets trapped via Skimming would boast a terrible fate. I don't think it has feelings, but it would have to be miserable to be lost in there for eternity, since it probably can't die.

 

Elaida's fate is hilarious because it's so ironic. Going from Amrylin Seat to mindless slave would suck. I'd say the same for Liandrin, since Moghedian trapped her with a weave that would prevent her from channeling and from killing herself, so she could only endure enslavement. Similarly, Galina's capture by Therava and a lifetime sentence as gaishan.

 

On that topic, Moghedian and Cyndane being mindtrapped.

 

And anyone who's been Compulsed.

 

 

The gholom can die... we do see in the books that the gholom required fresh human blood to survive. whilst he is falling through the emptyness of the skimming thing, he will eventually starve and die. Still a great fate for him.

 

Personally i hope that Egwene suffers the worst fate inthe book. i really hate her.

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I probably shouldn't even be here to avoid spoilers... but as for worst fates, I feel really, really sorry for Morgase (and she isn't even dead!). I hope she finds happiness and a good therapist.

 

 

she ran away and didnt look back in a thousand leagues once she pwned her fate

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You guys nailed a lot of them. I have to say the moment I saw the topic, my first thought was Carridin. Glad to see a lot of people found that as disturbing as I did. Speaking of Carridin, I have to say the members of his family who had to suffer due to his failure had a pretty bad fate. Being carried off by a Myrddraal on your wedding day? Not cool.

 

Anyone who had to deal with Semirhage's administrations had it pretty bad. The one that jumps to mind is when she replaced a person's blood. Ouch.

 

Of course, anyone who was raped, or tortured, or made a damane has to be on the list. As well as victims of the gholam.

 

Bubbles of evil can be pretty nasty too, like the aforementioned beetle guy. On that note I'd also like to nominate the guy who sank into the ground. Or the people in that one town who keep coming back to life.

 

It doesn't compare to everything that's been listed, but Rolan's death really pissed me off. Faile would have been totally screwed (literally) if it wasn't for him, and he gets his head squished like a melon for thanks.

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This thread just reminds me of the fact that PEOPLE DON'T DIE in WoT. The ONE time we were given a main char's death, we learn later that she survived and she returns. I mean, come on? Anyone read Game of Thrones? The constant fear, the unpredictability (is that a word), the plottwists and the losses; I just don't feel the same way when, say, Eban dies!

 

The amount of deaths in ASOiaF that people like to throw around is extremely overrated. Theres been a couple of POV deaths and thats it. Thats the main reason why the series has become so large and is in danger of growing to be another WoT (which isnt bad, but still.) Its because Martin isnt killing off nearly as many people as some claim. ASoIaF is not unpredictable; obviously we cant be too spoilerish, but its easy to tell the main characters who are for lack of a better term, immune to death. Just like in WoT. yes it would be nice if people died, and some will - Verins death was pretty damn upsetting to some extent.

 

There are much much more morbid series out there. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one in which there is essentially constant death.

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The amount of deaths in ASOiaF that people like to throw around is extremely overrated. Theres been a couple of POV deaths and thats it. Thats the main reason why the series has become so large and is in danger of growing to be another WoT (which isnt bad, but still.) Its because Martin isnt killing off nearly as many people as some claim. ASoIaF is not unpredictable; obviously we cant be too spoilerish, but its easy to tell the main characters who are for lack of a better term, immune to death. Just like in WoT. yes it would be nice if people died, and some will - Verins death was pretty damn upsetting to some extent.

 

Like Ned Stark was?

I see your point though, it seems unlikely that, say, Snow will die. But other PoVs like Daenerys, Jamie or Tyrion, do these seem immortal to you? Anywhere near Mat or Perrin, Egwene or Nynaeve?

It's not about the numbers of "importance A"-characters to die, it's about the fact that in GoT, Martin displayed willingness to let them do so, something which still sticks. I don't expect people to die all the time, but WoT goes WAY to far in protecting main character's lives. That being said, I stopped reading aSoIaF after book three 'cause I just didn't like them at all. Even so, the fear of the characters lives made me go through two more books when I kinda hated the first one. It's about tension.

 

Put it this way, when tGS first came and you read through it, was there any point where you feared for a main character's life? It should have been, because there were dangerous situations, but at least for me, there was not. Rand is one thing, but Egwene and Nynaeve at least ARE expandable.

 

Rand with Semirhage in tGS would have been a more powerful scene if Semirhage had made Rand kill Min. It would have made more sense as well ( in as, nothing more can be done to me this time). I love Min, but still.

 

Verin isn't a character of the same importance (I'm not speaking of the plot, but her emotional value to the reader) as, say, Min. The only one of those we lost were Moiraine, a tragic but heroic death - oh, did I say death? I meant couple of month's absence.

 

Don't misunderstand me, Moiraine might be my absolute favorite char of all time, and Min is lovely, but I want some of them to die just as much as I want the ones I hate to die. It's about loss, which is an emotion I feel way to little when I read WoT. I mean, at the end of Moiraine's letter to Rand, "May the light illumine and protect you. You will do well". Even writing it I get a chill. Moiraine coming back might be one of the most "meh" moments of my life. (It's sad, but that's another story :p)

 

 

I don't like the elaborate brutality of aSoIaF, but while I am dying to put my hands on aMoL, I'm not really dreading mayhem. When Brandon talks about a main character dying, I have the feeling that it's like Bashere or something. That's not enough for me.

 

To further elaborate, here's a list of the people I am talking about:

 

 

Rand - not gonna happen.

Perrin - not gonna happen. If he could have died at the end of book four, he would have been one of my favorite chars.

Mat - not gonna happen. Instead he lost an eye.

Min - should have died to Rand's hand during the whole Semirhage-mess.

Aviendha - not really a MAJOR character, but she does hold some emotional value for me.

Elayne - seems really unlikely. I like Elayne, so it would have been a sad death for me. At the same time, it would have been awesome.

Faile - not a character I like, but one who's death could have worked well as a stage on which Perrin could shine.

Tuon - only on the list cause of Mat. Don't really care for her.

Egwene - To late now. Egwene dying in the rebel camp to Aran'gar would have made the Forsaken a force the readers would actually fear, and could be brilliant as something more to happen to Rand.

Nynaeve - I LOVE Nynaeve. She should definitely have died (tough love, as they say :p)

Lan - These two should die together in aMoL. The one death (or two) I still think I might have.

Thom - don't think he will die now.

Moiraine - "dying", coming back, then dying again? everything awesome with Moiraine and her enormous sacrifice for humankind was wiped away with her return.

Siuan - could have died while saving Egwene at some point. Now, seems unlikely.

Taim - little emotional value except through Rand. That is a lot, though.

 

Might be more, but that's most of them for me. This list made me remember when I read ToM for the first time, and Bryne and Siuan died and was like "wow omg we almost died", and I was like "dude, this happens like 20 times each book".

 

I think this might be one of the reasons I feel book 7-> are way worse than the six first. All the tension has gone.

 

 

There are much much more morbid series out there. The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is one in which there is essentially constant death.

 

 

Which is besides the point whereas I am concerned, as I hope you have understood. I tend to just ramble, so if you don't catch what I'm saying, you're probably not alone :p

Edited by Never

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In response to Duskfire, Never said:

 

Like Ned Stark was?

I see your point though, it seems unlikely that, say, Snow will die. But other PoVs like Daenerys, Jamie or Tyrion, do these seem immortal to you? Anywhere near Mat or Perrin, Egwene or Nynaeve?

It's not about the numbers of "importance A"-characters to die, it's about the fact that in GoT, Martin displayed willingness to let them do so, something which still sticks. I don't expect people to die all the time, but WoT goes WAY to far in protecting main character's lives. That being said, I stopped reading aSoIaF after book three 'cause I just didn't like them at all. Even so, the fear of the characters lives made me go through two more books when I kinda hated the first one. It's about tension.

 

5th book of ASIOF spoiler below, so if you don't want to know what happened, don't read below.

 

 

Not only has Martin killed off Ned and Rob Stark, he also (apparently) kills Jon Snow in a Dance with Dragons. He's set it up that perhaps Jon will be reincarnated, but if so he won't have the same personality. He has left Bran and Bran's younger brother alive, but Bran is waaaay beyond being a prototypical 'good guy' at this point, and the younger one is too young to lead - still not even ten yet. We're left with having to make Daenerys our favorite character from the 'good' side, which also forces the reader to bend their principals to determine what is good and what is bad. (I think that is GRRM's overall goal).

 

 

 

The points in your post are well written and well taken - it didn't seem like rambling to me.

 

But I think it boils down to a matter of taste. Personally, I don't want to read a story where all, most, or even more than a few of the characters described as good are killed off. My own life experiences are such that I just want to read a story where the good guys win. The trajic deaths one sees nearly everyday in the news is more than enough bad news for me. There is also enough tension in other aspects short of mortality for my own likes. I can certainly understand why others feel differently though.

 

Edited for a bit more clarity - hopefully.

Edited by 2RiversFan

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...

Rand is one thing, but Egwene and Nynaeve at least ARE expandable.

...

 

They are if Gawyn can still get it up and HerHighandAmyrlinness deigns to allow it.

I don't know how he can impregnate her while continually kissing her ass but who knows?

 

and

If Lan managed to start Nynaeve expanding before he left or if he survives TG and does

that later.

 

I know it is a simple typo but the mental image gave me a hell of a good laugh.

THANKS, I needed that.

 

Caveatar

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Caveater said:

If Lan managed to start Nynaeve expanding before he left or if he survives TG and does

that later.

 

I got a chucle out of your post, but specifically the bit I qoute may not be far-fetched...

 

Min had a viewing of Lan way back in tEotW, in Baerlon:

 

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This viewing must be his and Nyneave's son. We may have written this viewing off previously, since we still hadn't discovered his identity of being King of Malkier to that point. But we also know that Min's viewings are of the future, so unless this was a mistake by RJ, or he hadn't fully fleshed out Min's viewings at that point, I'd say this is foreshadowing that he'll have a son. I hope this also means he'll survive his charge at Tarwin's Gap, but Nyneave may already be pregnant.

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Caveater said:

If Lan managed to start Nynaeve expanding before he left or if he survives TG and does

that later.

 

I got a chucle out of your post, but specifically the bit I qoute may not be far-fetched...

 

Min had a viewing of Lan way back in tEotW, in Baerlon:

 

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This viewing must be his and Nyneave's son. We may have written this viewing off previously, since we still hadn't discovered his identity of being King of Malkier to that point. But we also know that Min's viewings are of the future, so unless this was a mistake by RJ, or he hadn't fully fleshed out Min's viewings at that point, I'd say this is foreshadowing that he'll have a son. I hope this also means he'll survive his charge at Tarwin's Gap, but Nyneave may already be pregnant.

 

 

I don't know, we're pretty sure Min's viewing about Thom and a "man juggeling fire" is about his dead at the time nephew Owyn. The baby in the cradle with a sword is a phrase used to describe Lan as a baby at some point in the books (I think EotW or tGH).

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Caveater said:

If Lan managed to start Nynaeve expanding before he left or if he survives TG and does

that later.

 

I got a chucle out of your post, but specifically the bit I qoute may not be far-fetched...

 

Min had a viewing of Lan way back in tEotW, in Baerlon:

 

Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

 

This viewing must be his and Nyneave's son. We may have written this viewing off previously, since we still hadn't discovered his identity of being King of Malkier to that point. But we also know that Min's viewings are of the future, so unless this was a mistake by RJ, or he hadn't fully fleshed out Min's viewings at that point, I'd say this is foreshadowing that he'll have a son. I hope this also means he'll survive his charge at Tarwin's Gap, but Nyneave may already be pregnant.

 

 

I don't know, we're pretty sure Min's viewing about Thom and a "man juggeling fire" is about his dead at the time nephew Owyn. The baby in the cradle with a sword is a phrase used to describe Lan as a baby at some point in the books (I think EotW or tGH).

 

RJ has stated several times that the viewings are always about the future. The problems with this have been noted in the Q&A.

 

5 This answer has caused some controversy, as Min says about Daved Hanlon/Doilan Mellar: "his hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died", implying that she saw something about his past as well. (7.35) She said that Taim 'has blood in his past and in his future'. (7.2) She saw of Lan 'seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword', which also seems to be about Lan's past, though it might be symbolic of his duty. (1.15) And finally, Min saw many viewings for Birgitte: 'some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man'. If Birgitte will be older than Gaidal from now on because she was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod, then the viewings of the older Gaidal must be from the past. (9.12)

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now that i think about it min fairsaw has the worst fate.

 

she could probaly guess when all her friends and family will

 

die.she is goind to be so sadded by the end of this epic story.

she will see so much death hanging around everyone.

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There is a lot of sad fates out there. But one that has always struck me s extremely harsh (even before I read TGS) is Aram. He was brought up to believe in a thing, to live a certain way, and then brutally had this illusion torn away from him. In his grief, he made a choice that lost him all hi family and friends. I think all that meddled his brain for good. So he stuck to Perrin, who was the first to stand up for him (although, I also blame him for putting the idea in Arams head in the first place, all the way bsk in tEotW.) He then ends up getting brainwashed, an easy prey due t his wits already being a bit scrambled, by the Prophet. And dies trying to kill the man wh, in some ways, was the one who messed up his entire exsistence in the first place.

 

Don't get me wrong, Im very fond of Perrin, but I do blame him for most of what happened to Aram. Poor Aram.

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Remember Abdel Omerna? Pedron Niall's false spy? The guy who spent days blowing the false Horn of Valere out in the woods? He was a comic relief but died soon after his first appearance.

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