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Egwene's dream in TOM


NitroS
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Doesnt Egwene's dream in TOM where she see's rand cutting the 7 ropes which she knows to be rand destroying the seals, mean that rand will destroy the seals as her dreams come true? so her rallying resistance is pointless?

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Her dreams are possible futures, not prophecies like a foretelling.

 

 

Are you sure...she has true dreams which tend to come true, like the Seachan attack on the tower. I am pretty sure her Rand dream was a true dream which she did understand the meaning of.

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She's a hypocrit that's all.

Egwene dreams about Seanchan attack -> omg Seanchan is attacking!11

Egwene dreams about Rand breaking seals -> omg I must stop him!11

 

Uhh, what? Are you saying she allowed the seanchan attack to happen lol? She'd be a hypocrite if she stopped the seanchan attack (which she did) and then said that her dreams are meant to be and so she must let Rand do whatever he want. The fact she opposes Rand is actually consistant with her believing her dreams are warnings of things that should be opposed.

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This is the Dream that you are talking about right?

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

I dont have my book with me but where did the number 7 come from? Also What is the sphere and what do the 23 stars represent?

 

As to the Towers one, that is what i think as well.

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She's a hypocrit that's all.

Egwene dreams about Seanchan attack -> omg Seanchan is attacking!11

Egwene dreams about Rand breaking seals -> omg I must stop him!11

 

Uhh, what? Are you saying she allowed the seanchan attack to happen lol? She'd be a hypocrite if she stopped the seanchan attack (which she did) and then said that her dreams are meant to be and so she must let Rand do whatever he want. The fact she opposes Rand is actually consistant with her believing her dreams are warnings of things that should be opposed.

 

Her dreams are not warnings of things to be opposed..her true dreams are foretellings..when she dreamed the Seachan attack on the tower, the attack would happen regardless of where Egwene was when it happened. She could try and fight it off but the attack would happen. Similarly if she dreamt that Rand was breaking the seals..he would break the seals. She could oppose him but he would anyway end up breaking the seals because she saw him break the seals not try to or going to break the seals.

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She's a hypocrit that's all.

Egwene dreams about Seanchan attack -> omg Seanchan is attacking!11

Egwene dreams about Rand breaking seals -> omg I must stop him!11

 

Uhh, what? Are you saying she allowed the seanchan attack to happen lol? She'd be a hypocrite if she stopped the seanchan attack (which she did) and then said that her dreams are meant to be and so she must let Rand do whatever he want. The fact she opposes Rand is actually consistant with her believing her dreams are warnings of things that should be opposed.

 

Her dreams are not warnings of things to be opposed..her true dreams are foretellings..when she dreamed the Seachan attack on the tower, the attack would happen regardless of where Egwene was when it happened. She could try and fight it off but the attack would happen. Similarly if she dreamt that Rand was breaking the seals..he would break the seals. She could oppose him but he would anyway end up breaking the seals because she saw him break the seals not try to or going to break the seals.

 

I believe only Min sees absolutes. Everyone else sees possibilities. Also this:

 

The viewings and prophecies that occured before the loosening of the pattern are very valid. But those that occured at, or after, the loosening have a higher chance of not coming true.
Edited by Kael Pyralis
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Foretellings and Min's viewings are absolute--though I suspect that will become less reliable to closer to TG and the more the Dark One (as an influence from outside the pattern) acts.

 

Egwene's dreams can be falliable.

 

The rising and falling towers (in the end there were only 6) preceding that dream were the Forsaken, right? That's what I interpreted them as. The one that fell but then rose highest among them all must be Moridin.

 

I reckon your probably right and that it is Moridin, though I am also considering the possibility that it is Graendal--after all she is the one that fell in Towers of Midnight (at least, the only one to fall who could recover herself), and unless she does something pretty huge in aMoL her surviving Rand's attack just seems so pointless.

 

Of course, Moridin fell (when he died as Ishamael) and recovered, but I'm confused as to why that fall is being displayed in this dream, when he has already, and long since recovered. And if it's displaying the full fates of the Forsaken since waking, why don't we see others rise and fall--aran'gar, Cyndane, Osan'gar, etc.

 

 

Did that help? I'll stop rambling back and forth now.

 

This is the Dream that you are talking about right?

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

I dont have my book with me but where did the number 7 come from? Also What is the sphere and what do the 23 stars represent?

 

As to the Towers one, that is what i think as well.

 

The general thought seems to be that the sphere is the Dark One's prison (beautiful, crafter by the created, cracked by mankind when they drilled into it) and the ropes are the seals, holding it together.

 

Although I do find this a bit confusing. I mean for all that the characters speak of the Dark One's 'prison', it's not really a prison, as in a confinement, rather he just seems to be locked out of the world. So yeah.

 

The twenty-three stars are really interesting. We know that some of the Hundred Companions assisted Lews Therin in the actual weaving on the the creation of the seals, layering their weavings together with his, so possibly they represent the power of the twenty-two men who assisted Lews Therin, making twenty-three in total.

 

Guesswork done. :D

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Egwene's dreams can be falliable.

Since some debaters seem not to agree, perhaps it's worth saying another word. Dreaming is the Talent of seeing what might be, not what must be. Amys tells us that in TSR. In fact, many times the WO Dream many Dreams which reflect different possible outcomes (Rand will come to Rhuidean; no, he'll stay away and die; Moiraine and Lan will come with him; no, Lan will go with Nynaeve).

 

Of course, Moridin fell (when he died as Ishamael) and recovered, but I'm confused as to why that fall is being displayed in this dream, when he has already, and long since recovered.

I wanted to add that she did see all 13 of them before some fell. That hints that it might indeed have been Moridin, but I can't say why the others haven't recovered from a fall as he did.

 

The twenty-three stars are really interesting. We know that some of the Hundred Companions assisted Lews Therin in the actual weaving on the the creation of the seals, layering their weavings together with his, so possibly they represent the power of the twenty-two men who assisted Lews Therin, making twenty-three in total.

I've seen it speculated that the 23 stars were the AS present when Rand conveyed his intention to Egwene. Three Sitters per Ajah, 7 Ajahs represented, plus Silviana and Egwene herself.

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Of course, Moridin fell (when he died as Ishamael) and recovered, but I'm confused as to why that fall is being displayed in this dream, when he has already, and long since recovered.

I wanted to add that she did see all 13 of them before some fell. That hints that it might indeed have been Moridin, but I can't say why the others haven't recovered from a fall as he did.

Well, Ishamael died became Moridin and then Naeblis. The others died, got resurrected and either died again or became enslaved. As to why there's no movement up and down, maybe it's the end result that's important and the dream isn't really meant to be a time lapse depiction of the Forsaken standings.

 

 

The twenty-three stars are really interesting. We know that some of the Hundred Companions assisted Lews Therin in the actual weaving on the the creation of the seals, layering their weavings together with his, so possibly they represent the power of the twenty-two men who assisted Lews Therin, making twenty-three in total.

I've seen it speculated that the 23 stars were the AS present when Rand conveyed his intention to Egwene. Three Sitters per Ajah, 7 Ajahs represented, plus Silviana and Egwene herself.

Yeah the number 23 jumped right out at me when I read it. I've wondered about it's significance and I swear I've read it somewhere else (within the last two books) but I can't remember where. Maybe I'm recounting on a re-read?

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according to the rules of circles, is that the maximum amount where there can be an equal number of men and women in the circle?

 

I'm going to go ahead and say no because 23 is an odd number *snicker*

</smartass>

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Of course, Moridin fell (when he died as Ishamael) and recovered, but I'm confused as to why that fall is being displayed in this dream, when he has already, and long since recovered.

I wanted to add that she did see all 13 of them before some fell. That hints that it might indeed have been Moridin, but I can't say why the others haven't recovered from a fall as he did.

Well, Ishamael died became Moridin and then Naeblis. The others died, got resurrected and either died again or became enslaved. As to why there's no movement up and down, maybe it's the end result that's important and the dream isn't really meant to be a time lapse depiction of the Forsaken standings.

 

Yeah, if it is about the forsaken, I think the point of it would be about the individual and not about all of them. The fact that he "fell" then rose higher (as Naeblis) would be a warning about that single one. Kinda like the dream is saying, "Don't worry so much about all the forsaken, this guy is way, way worse in comparison."

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If it refers to the Forsaken, it can't be fully prophetic, because there were 13 towers in Egwene's dream but not 13 Forsaken remaining at that point. I lean towards it being Moridin, because "rising higher" seems to imply becoming Nae'blis, and I don't see any of the others becoming Nae'blis at this point -- with the possible exception of Demandred.

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