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Werthead

Compare & contrast WoT & ASoF&I

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I wouldn't say that ASoIaF is very realistic, mainly because even in Middle Ages there were actually people who lived long lives in peace and quiet.

 

I'm a bit puzzled by this comment, since the same is true in the fictional world of Westeros. In fact, before the recent civil war that brought the king to power at the start of AGoT, there hadn't been any internal fighting in Westeros for a century and the kingdom had been at peace for a long time. The prequel novellas involving the characters Dunk and Egg are actually interesting partially because they are set during this period of peace, as they travel around and get embroiled in adventures amongst the smallfolk and lords without a backdrop of war. Makes for an interesting contrast with the main series.

 

More to the point, if ASoIaF was set during a time of peace and plenty with no conflict, it'd be pretty dull :)

 

WoT has Religion buyt no need for Temples. It also has multiple languages (actually more languages than ASoIaF)

 

WoT has no organised religion at all, for reasons that Jordan mentioned several times in interviews. WoT also has exactly two languages (the modern tongue, which is English, and the Old Tongue) and a reference to the Ogier language. That's it. All fourteen of the Westland nations, the Seanchan, the Sea Folk and the Aiel speak the same language (with vaguely different accents), and we haven't enough data on Shara or the Land of the Madmen to know about them.

 

Whilst in ASoIaF there's the Westerosi tongue (English, basically), another Old Tongue (spoken beyond the Wall), Dothraki, Valyrian (both the 'pure' form and the corrupted form spoken in the Free Cities), Ghiscari, Qartheen and Asshai'i. So ASoIaF has a lot more languages than WoT, though only Dothraki is as well-developed as the WoT Old Tongue (actually much moreso, but that's because HBO hired someone to flesh it out; in the books it's not that well-developed).

 

Again, you must not have researched WoT history very much to think it is not as rich if not more so than GRRM

 

I'd agree with this partially. I think after five books of each series (up to ADWD for ASoIaF and TFoH for WoT), ASoIaF might actually have a more detailed backstory and history than WoT, but after thirteen books the WoT world is probably more detailed (though WoT is more geographically focused; ASoIaF spans a larger amount of territory across two continents). Remember that WoT also has a detailed RPG and a world book which Jordan wrote detailed background history for. ASoIaF has the RPG (but GRRM only gave the writers some very minor new details) but won't have the world book until late next year.

 

So right now, WoT probably wins, but not by all that much. Having worked on both the WoT and ASoIaF wikis, the amount of detail and information for both worlds is very high, moreso than for any other fantasy world bar only Middle-earth and roleplaying ones (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance etc).

 

Political intrigue. Seanchan, Andor, Cairhienen, Aes Sedai, Borderlanders, Aiel, et al.... all heavily political and plot filled.

 

WoT has political intrigue and some of it is handled-well (though of the WoT cast only Pedron Niall, Verin and Rodel Ituralde might be good enough to pass muster in Westeros). But a lot of the political intrigue in WoT is also handled badly. Elayne becoming Queen of Andor despite abandoning her country to civil war and ruin in order to run around with the Aes Sedai for months on end, and then being given the throne simply because she has force on her side and none of the other Andoran lords can even articulate the point that she has failed in her duty to her people is ridiculous.

 

Essentially, if Varys or Littlefinger rocked up in the WoT world, they'd be ruling the place within about three weeks.

 

Mystery Uhm.... don't see much mystery in ASoIaF. One or two things but that is all.

 

Much of ASoIaF is presaged on mysteries and questions arising from the backstory and unexplained elements, far moreso than WoT. The biggest controversy regarding a mystery in the history of WoT fandom the identity of a killer who killed a minor supporting character and people argued about it for 17 years before realising it was of absolutely no importance whatsoever. On the other hand, ASoIaF is based on a series of fundamental mysteries about the world and certain characters which will have a huge bearing on the future outcome of the story (several of which came to fruition in the most recent book).

 

Sam - i don't recall rape being included in the WoT ... but i agree with the rest of what you wrote.

 

Shaidar Haran raped Moghedien and Mesaana to punish them for their failures, and I think some people have concluded he might have done it to Graendal as well.

 

I actually think the 'ASoIaF is much darker than WoT!' thing is overblown. WoT isn't really a bed of roses either, particularly with things like Bandar Eban almost starving to death, crops failing across the continent, the charnel house battle at Dumai's Wells and so on.

Edited by Werthead

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Sam - i don't recall rape being included in the WoT ... but i agree with the rest of what you wrote.

 

Shaidar Haran raped Moghedien and Mesaana to punish them for their failures, and I think some people have concluded he might have done it to Graendal as well.

 

Morgase was also raped by Eamon Valda (not to mention Rahvin), and depending on who you talk to many consider what Tylin did to Mat to be nothing short of rape as well.

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Languages.... First off, Westeros is a fractured planet with many different cultures. WoT was unified on a planetary scale with a unifie dculture and language before the Breaking. So it would be natural to be a homogenized linguistic heritage. That being said, in WoT, we have Modern Tounge, Old Tounge, Trolloc, Aiel Maiden sign language, Saldaean fantalk, and then various dialects and accents from those. Westeros actualy usues just a handful and the rest of mentioned but rarely if ever used. At best I would call it a draw.

 

Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

Elayne..... She had a choice between her country's internal squabbles or fighting the Black Ajah. What has greater importance. Also, her mother was assumed to be in control in Andor, not a Forsaken. So when she learned of her mother's "death" she went directly to take control of her House. She had the best claim in the rules of accession but she had to fight for her throne just like her mother did despite being the head of one of the most powerful Houses. That was probably made worse by her mother's Compulsed actions and Elaynes absence, but it is entirely realistic. Of course she won the throne because she was the most powerful, that is how thrones are won. Do you think the Lannisters won because people liked them best?

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Languages.... First off, Westeros is a fractured planet with many different cultures. WoT was unified on a planetary scale with a unifie dculture and language before the Breaking. So it would be natural to be a homogenized linguistic heritage. That being said, in WoT, we have Modern Tounge, Old Tounge, Trolloc, Aiel Maiden sign language, Saldaean fantalk, and then various dialects and accents from those. Westeros actualy usues just a handful and the rest of mentioned but rarely if ever used. At best I would call it a draw.

 

The thing about the world being unified with one language is a great cover-story to use, though ultimately unconvincing. Many of the modern European languages spun off from Latin have already drifted so far apart that they are not interchangeable, and that's happened in less than 1,500 years, let along the 3,400 years that have passed in Randland since the Breaking.

 

Trolloc script plays a role in the story in TGH, so I'll give you that, but using the Aiel and Saldaean hand languages are a bit of a stretch. That's not different languages, just coded ways of sending information. When it comes to people actually having to learn other languages, that never happens in WoT (Mat and Rand get, from different sources, the language downloaded into their brains). This is compared to Daenerys knowing Westerosi and Valyrian as a child, then having to learn Dothraki in AGoT over the course of months.

 

The simple truth is that both GRRM and RJ are rather unrealistic when it comes to languages (Westeros is so huge that the different regions should have had different languages thousands of years earlier, rather that one tongue holding sway from the Wall to Dorne despite multiple influxes of foreign influences). I don't think either really wanted to get into the technicalities of language drift and having to have people learn different languages and so on. Between the two of them, however, I think GRRM at least nods more than RJ in the direction that languages will develop differently in geographically-separated areas.

 

Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

I think it depends on the importance of mysteries. In WoT the only mysteries given lots of discussion on the boards were the ones about Asmodean and Moiraine (although Moiraine's situation I think was guessed very early on: she's a prisoner of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn and would have to be rescued at some point, and that's pretty much what happened without much in the way of surprises). The other matters were temporary: the mystery of the Eye of the World was resolved within one book, so it really wasn't a series-spanning mystery, the same with Callandor.

 

Spoilerised for the beneift of the OP, who hasn't read ASoIaF:

 

 

In ASoIaF, the prophecy over the Prince Who Was Promised/Azhor Azhai, the true motives of Rhaegar Targaryen and the mystery over Jon Snow's parentage are much more key to the central storylines of the series and have been issues since the first and second books. There's also the mystery over the upset and unbalanced seasons and how and why that happened, and also a growing mystery (re-emphasised in the new book) about why the historical dates given in the series are so ludicrous and the growing evidence that the history of Westeros itself may be screwed up. That's something fundamental to the world itself, and the only thing comparable to that in WoT is the Cleansing, which obviously has now happened so is less of an issue.

 

 

She had a choice between her country's internal squabbles or fighting the Black Ajah. What has greater importance.

 

Her country. Without question. There were others involved in fighting the Black Ajah who could have gotten on with it (and ironically Elayne actually did a more successful job of drawing out the Black Ajah after she'd gone to Andor to deal with the crisis there, in KoD).

 

Also, her mother was assumed to be in control in Andor, not a Forsaken. So when she learned of her mother's "death" she went directly to take control of her House.

 

It's been three years since my last WoT reread, so I'm hazy on this, but didn't Elayne learn of her mother's disappearance in LoC, days or weeks before she even went to Ebou Dar? There was definitely a significant time-lapse between her learning and then Travelling to Andor in PoD.

 

She had the best claim in the rules of accession but she had to fight for her throne just like her mother did despite being the head of one of the most powerful Houses. That was probably made worse by her mother's Compulsed actions and Elaynes absence, but it is entirely realistic. Of course she won the throne because she was the most powerful, that is how thrones are won. Do you think the Lannisters won because people liked them best?

 

Equating Elayne with the Lannisters is quite amusing :-) Now I think on it, Elayne can be seen as a bit of a proto-Cersei, though not as insane.

 

 

Or, thankfully, incestuous.

 

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I've always thought Elaida and Cersei have a disturbing amount in common. Though this is ignoring respective opinions on men.

Edited by Elend

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Just so we are clear. Originally, I responded to this post from DocBean:

 

Honestly?

Song of Ice and Fire is superior to Wheel of Time in just about every way, and this is coming from a huge Wheel of Time fan.

 

This is what you get from SOIAF that WoT doesn't deliver:

A fear for the characters you're reading about. Characters die, good and bad, and with very little resurrection unlike the Forsaken.

Religion, Temples, and multiple Languages.

Shades of Gray - characters aren't as black and white as Jordan's

War between humans - There aren't Trollocs or Orcs running around, but there are some supernatural goings on.

A rich history.

Fire, Ice, Rape, Blood, Violence, Death, and Love - and it's actually believable.

Subtle magic - it's there, but it's not ruining everything, people don't get chopped in the face without suffering, scarring, or dying. No magical healers.

Political intrigue.

Mystery

and more...

 

And I was pointing out to him/her that his/her assumptions about ASoIaF superiority was unfounded. I actually think they are very close and can be spoken of in the same breath which many Song Fans refuse to do.

 

BTW, the Callandor mystery is still going on. What is its role with the Dragon and why does it HAVE to be the one used to Seal the DO's Prison rather than the more powerful Choedan Kal? Why was it "flawed" to force it to require a two female buffer? These have not really been explained in the books.

 

Like I said above, WoT is one book from finishing a 14 book series whereas Song is book 5 of 7. So the fact that WoT has resolved many of its mysteries because the series is almost over should not be held against it.

Edited by SamVimes

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Political intrigue. Seanchan, Andor, Cairhienen, Aes Sedai, Borderlanders, Aiel, et al.... all heavily political and plot filled.

 

WoT has political intrigue and some of it is handled-well (though of the WoT cast only Pedron Niall, Verin and Rodel Ituralde might be good enough to pass muster in Westeros). But a lot of the political intrigue in WoT is also handled badly. Elayne becoming Queen of Andor despite abandoning her country to civil war and ruin in order to run around with the Aes Sedai for months on end, and then being given the throne simply because she has force on her side and none of the other Andoran lords can even articulate the point that she has failed in her duty to her people is ridiculous.

I think if they tried that, they would quickly find they didn't have a leg to stand on - "where were you when the country was going to hell?" "Fixing the weather, thus preventing an eternal summer which would have led to the deaths of you and everyone in Andor. Plus the rest of the world." That's hardly failing in her duty. When she left for Ebou Dar, the situation was stable, and she went back to Andor as soon as she could.

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And I was pointing out to him/her that his/her assumptions about ASoIaF superiority was unfounded. I actually think they are very close and can be spoken of in the same breath which many Song Fans refuse to do.

 

Fair enough, and I agree.

 

BTW, the Callandor mystery is still going on. What is its role with the Dragon and why does it HAVE to be the one used to Seal the DO's Prison rather than the more powerful Choedan Kal? Why was it "flawed" to force it to require a two female buffer? These have not really been explained in the books.

 

I thought this was down to the fact that Callandor was made just before or even during the early part of the Breaking, when the men had already gone insane (per the vision in Rhuidean with Callandor sitting on the table with the Aes Sedai arguing over it, the Eye of the World, and the Green Man), and it was deliberately flawed so men and women could use it together (i.e. with a moderating influence, unlike the Choedan Kal which the wrong person could blow up the entire planet with)? Or was that just a theory?

 

"Fixing the weather, thus preventing an eternal summer which would have led to the deaths of you and everyone in Andor. Plus the rest of the world."

 

"I see. So, you were the most powerful Aes Sedai present?"

"Well, no, Nynaeve was there and she's stronger..."

"Ah. So, you were the most experienced channeller present with knowledge of the particular field of the weather?"

"Actually, the Sea Folk Windfinders kind of did the actual work..."

"Intriguing. So, what exactly did you do?"

"I caused a really sweet explosion shortly afterwards that incinerated some Seanchan!"

"Hmm."

 

So...not so much. Elayne was mostly superfluous to that operation (and certainly superfluous without the benefit of hindsight).

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Shaidar Haran raped Moghedien and Mesaana to punish them for their failures, and I think some people have concluded he might have done it to Graendal as well.

 

Morgase was also raped by Eamon Valda (not to mention Rahvin), and depending on who you talk to many consider what Tylin did to Mat to be nothing short of rape as well.

 

okay i do recall the Morgase/Valda thing; but compared to ASoF&I, you don't really notice it. as for the SH rapings ... thats absolutley new on me. is there cannon to back that up, because i can't remember it being said in the books honestly.

 

 

 

but using the Aiel and Saldaean hand languages are a bit of a stretch. That's not different languages, just coded ways of sending information. When it comes to people actually having to learn other languages, that never happens in WoT (Mat and Rand get, from different sources, the language downloaded into their brains). This is compared to Daenerys knowing Westerosi and Valyrian as a child, then having to learn Dothraki in AGoT over the course of months.

 

i have to disagree with your disreguard as hand languages not being another language all together. this is like saying Sign Language isn't a legitament language, or body language either; which just isn't true.

 

you shoudl also add in the Chan's sign language, like that Tuon has with her "Voice"

 

I think it depends on the importance of mysteries. In WoT the only mysteries given lots of discussion on the boards were the ones about Asmodean and Moiraine (although Moiraine's situation I think was guessed very early on: she's a prisoner of the Aelfinn/Eelfinn and would have to be rescued at some point, and that's pretty much what happened without much in the way of surprises). The other matters were temporary: the mystery of the Eye of the World was resolved within one book, so it really wasn't a series-spanning mystery, the same with Callandor.

 

thansk for using the spoilers wert :happy:

 

i disagree with your shrugging off Moriane, the mystery surrounding her wasnt where she was or who held her prisioner; it was how she was going to be rescued, who woudl rescue her, who Matt/Thom woudl take with them a nd what condition Moriane would be in (ie: was she dead like Lanfear or burned/stilled)

 

you also have the whole mystery surrounding Slayer, alot of unanswered questions about Wolfkin, as well as the Seafolk prophecies and also Sahra and what will happen concerning the Damane and all that.

 

 

I've always thought Elaida and Cersei have a disturbing amount in common. Though this is ignoring respective opinions on men.

 

nah i think this is about right. Cersei & Elaida both have the same basic look as far as men are concerned, that their dumb tools to be used and nothing more. Cersei just is willing to go a step further than Elaida by using her built in weapons to get her way while Elaida prefers the company of pillow friends and prefers to beraid men with her words and the OP :wink:

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Shaidar Haran raped Moghedien and Mesaana to punish them for their failures, and I think some people have concluded he might have done it to Graendal as well.

 

Morgase was also raped by Eamon Valda (not to mention Rahvin), and depending on who you talk to many consider what Tylin did to Mat to be nothing short of rape as well.

 

okay i do recall the Morgase/Valda thing; but compared to ASoF&I, you don't really notice it. as for the SH rapings ... thats absolutley new on me. is there cannon to back that up, because i can't remember it being said in the books honestly.

 

I asked RJ, at the Palo Alto signing, if Moggy was raped by Shadar Haran in ACOS.

 

 

 

His reply was, "Yes. Amongst other things."

 

It's taken by many to mean that this is a punishment Haran placed on other Forsaken who displeased him as well, and certainly looking at the context of Mesaana's punishment followed by her reaction later at it's mention at the Forsaken meeting, and what Haran says to Graendal just before punishing her it's clear they were both raped as well... amongst other things

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I believe Masaana was also punished in this way for not appearing at the Cleansing.

 

Correct. She disobeyed a direct order, and got punished for it.

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"Fixing the weather, thus preventing an eternal summer which would have led to the deaths of you and everyone in Andor. Plus the rest of the world."

 

"I see. So, you were the most powerful Aes Sedai present?"

"Well, no, Nynaeve was there and she's stronger..."

"Ah. So, you were the most experienced channeller present with knowledge of the particular field of the weather?"

"Actually, the Sea Folk Windfinders kind of did the actual work..."

"Intriguing. So, what exactly did you do?"

"I caused a really sweet explosion shortly afterwards that incinerated some Seanchan!"

"Hmm."

 

So...not so much. Elayne was mostly superfluous to that operation (and certainly superfluous without the benefit of hindsight).

 

 

The key here was actually finding the bowl. Only Elayne and Nyn used "need" to find the general location. IIRC Nynaeve was wrong about what the storehouse looked like in Ebou Dar. Had Elayne not gone they would likely of never found the bowl to begin with. IMO Elayne should be lauded for putting the world's weather above her political aspirations.

 

Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

Out of all listed for the WoT the only that really count as such on a large scale are Callandor and Moiraine(is there anyone that hadn't figured that out?). The rest is just picking out questions you may have. If you did that with aSoIaF you would go on for days...Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest etc etc etc there is absolutely no comparison.

Edited by Suttree

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Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

Out of all listed for the WoT the only that really count as such on a large scale are Callandor and Moiraine(is there anyone that hadn't figured that out?). The rest is just picking out questions you may have. If you did that with aSoIaF you would go on for days...Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest etc etc etc there is absolutely no comparison.

 

You just compared them, so how is their "no comparison"? Both series have countless tiny mysteries throughout them. WoT's answered more of them, but at 5 books in, TFoH, it hadn't answered much, neither has ASoIaF. Both series are huge and deep and full of mysteries. You could compare them endlessly, though it's totally futile. Both series are great, but different. Which is better is entirely up to the individual reading the series, which has been proven in the countless threads comparing the two on this and other sites.

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"Fixing the weather, thus preventing an eternal summer which would have led to the deaths of you and everyone in Andor. Plus the rest of the world."

 

"I see. So, you were the most powerful Aes Sedai present?"

"Well, no, Nynaeve was there and she's stronger..."

"Ah. So, you were the most experienced channeller present with knowledge of the particular field of the weather?"

"Actually, the Sea Folk Windfinders kind of did the actual work..."

"Intriguing. So, what exactly did you do?"

"I caused a really sweet explosion shortly afterwards that incinerated some Seanchan!"

"Hmm."

 

So...not so much. Elayne was mostly superfluous to that operation (and certainly superfluous without the benefit of hindsight).

 

 

The key here was actually finding the bowl. Only Elayne and Nyn used "need" to find the general location. IIRC Nynaeve was wrong about what the storehouse looked like in Ebou Dar. Had Elayne not gone they would likely of never found the bowl to begin with. IMO Elayne should be lauded for putting the world's weather above her political aspirations.

 

Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

Out of all listed for the WoT the only that really count as such on a large scale are Callandor and Moiraine(is there anyone that hadn't figured that out?). The rest is just picking out questions you may have. If you did that with aSoIaF you would go on for days...Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest etc etc etc there is absolutely no comparison.

 

Once again, if you want to go back to the early and middle books of Wheel of Time, there are countless unknown plot threads in the series, but since Wheel of Time is almost finished, people claim that there is no mysteries? That is being unfair. Song is only halfway through, so it is natural that it would have more unresolved plotlines. Come on..... :rolleyes:

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"Fixing the weather, thus preventing an eternal summer which would have led to the deaths of you and everyone in Andor. Plus the rest of the world."

 

"I see. So, you were the most powerful Aes Sedai present?"

"Well, no, Nynaeve was there and she's stronger..."

"Ah. So, you were the most experienced channeller present with knowledge of the particular field of the weather?"

"Actually, the Sea Folk Windfinders kind of did the actual work..."

"Intriguing. So, what exactly did you do?"

"I caused a really sweet explosion shortly afterwards that incinerated some Seanchan!"

"Hmm."

 

So...not so much. Elayne was mostly superfluous to that operation (and certainly superfluous without the benefit of hindsight).

 

 

The key here was actually finding the bowl. Only Elayne and Nyn used "need" to find the general location. IIRC Nynaeve was wrong about what the storehouse looked like in Ebou Dar. Had Elayne not gone they would likely of never found the bowl to begin with. IMO Elayne should be lauded for putting the world's weather above her political aspirations.

 

correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't it work better for Elyane because Nyn had already used the "need" trick in TAR to find the male adam.

 

i want to say one Amys told Egwene that you could only use the "need" trick once (ie: on one item) i could be wrong on this, and normally am on WoT stuff :laugh: HP i got liek that *snaps fingers* WoT on the other hand, i defer to ya'll on lmao

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"Fixing the weather, thus preventing an eternal summer which would have led to the deaths of you and everyone in Andor. Plus the rest of the world."

 

"I see. So, you were the most powerful Aes Sedai present?"

"Well, no, Nynaeve was there and she's stronger..."

"Ah. So, you were the most experienced channeller present with knowledge of the particular field of the weather?"

"Actually, the Sea Folk Windfinders kind of did the actual work..."

"Intriguing. So, what exactly did you do?"

"I caused a really sweet explosion shortly afterwards that incinerated some Seanchan!"

"Hmm."

 

So...not so much. Elayne was mostly superfluous to that operation (and certainly superfluous without the benefit of hindsight).

 

 

The key here was actually finding the bowl. Only Elayne and Nyn used "need" to find the general location. IIRC Nynaeve was wrong about what the storehouse looked like in Ebou Dar. Had Elayne not gone they would likely of never found the bowl to begin with. IMO Elayne should be lauded for putting the world's weather above her political aspirations.

 

Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

Out of all listed for the WoT the only that really count as such on a large scale are Callandor and Moiraine(is there anyone that hadn't figured that out?). The rest is just picking out questions you may have. If you did that with aSoIaF you would go on for days...Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest etc etc etc there is absolutely no comparison.

 

Once again, if you want to go back to the early and middle books of Wheel of Time, there are countless unknown plot threads in the series, but since Wheel of Time is almost finished, people claim that there is no mysteries? That is being unfair. Song is only halfway through, so it is natural that it would have more unresolved plotlines. Come on..... :rolleyes:

 

How is 5 out of 7 back to the middle? There are two books to go compared with one in the WoT. Your point holds zero weight.

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How is 5 out of 7 back to the middle? There are two books to go compared with one in the WoT. Your point holds zero weight.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Ok, Song is 71% complete.

 

Wheel is 93% complete.

 

In literary terms, it is only natural that the story that is 71% complete would have more unresolved plotlines than the story that is 91% complete.

 

Sometimes, I think people like to disagree just to disagree.

 

:wacko:

 

 

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I guess im kind off biased towards WoT, as it was among the first books i've read and i've practically grown up with the characters.

 

For me, one of the strongest sides WoT has is the amount of writing for the main characters. If you compare the amount of words spent on for example Bran, Arya , Dany and Jon with the amount spent on Rand, Mat and Perrin. Yes, ofcourse i realize that WoT is 13 books, and Asoiaf is just five, but i think my point stands. In my opinion, this is much more satisfying as a reader. I hate wasting half the book on PoVs which i just dont WANT =) . We hade two Chapters for Arya in AdwD and three for Bran. In Affc we got zero bran, and about three or four Arya chapters. That had me so frustrated. Their plotlines have barely moved along. This i think changes how you feel about characters. In my opinion what makes WoT outshine AsoiaF is the purely epic moments. We rarely have those in Asoiaf (imo). What could possibly compare to Egwene blasting Seanchan in the tower, or Rand saving Ilturalde, or Perrin forging his hammer, Verins hour of awesomeness (or in my opinion Aviendhas visions in Rhuidean which gave me a massive blast of negative emotions) and yet i havnt even metioned Rands Rhuidean scenes. But, as i said earlyier i AM biased towards WoT. I just never felt the sheer amount of emotion when i read AsoiaF.

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How is 5 out of 7 back to the middle? There are two books to go compared with one in the WoT. Your point holds zero weight.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Ok, Song is 71% complete.

 

Wheel is 93% complete.

 

In literary terms, it is only natural that the story that is 71% complete would have more unresolved plotlines than the story that is 91% complete.

 

Sometimes, I think people like to disagree just to disagree.

 

:wacko:

 

Or is it that some people skew facts to better support their point? Compare your percentages above to 50% and "almost done" which is what you originally said. Once again unresolved plotlines and "mysteries" are two very different things.

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How is 5 out of 7 back to the middle? There are two books to go compared with one in the WoT. Your point holds zero weight.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Ok, Song is 71% complete.

 

Wheel is 93% complete.

 

In literary terms, it is only natural that the story that is 71% complete would have more unresolved plotlines than the story that is 91% complete.

 

Sometimes, I think people like to disagree just to disagree.

 

:wacko:

 

Or is it that some people skew facts to better support their point? Compare your percentages above to 50% and "almost done" which is what you originally said. Once again unresolved plotlines and "mysteries" are two very different things.

 

Not to mention, if we're counting books here, WoT has had 12 books to establish those "mysteries" whilst ASOIAF has had 5.

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Or is it that some people skew facts to better support their point? Compare your percentages above to 50% and "almost done" which is what you originally said. Once again unresolved plotlines and "mysteries" are two very different things.

 

What are you trying to prove here? That one series has more mysteries than the other? That one has more plotlines? Which? Your original point was that if we compared small mysteries in both series like the Doom of Valyaria vs. what role Callandor has in the Last Battle, one series (I take it ASoIaF) has so many there was "no comparison." But you did compare the two, and both series have a TON. Do you really think WoT didn't have a million tiny mysteries throughout the series? What do you think the purpose of this website is if not to discuss the million tiny mysteries in WoT?

 

Your argument is now that ASoIaF is better because it's less complete and so less mysteries have been answered? How does that make either series better or worse?

 

At this point it seems you've completely dropped your argument in support of trying to prove neither are 50% complete, and now you're just railing SamVimes for bad math skills. So I guess you coincide that both have a ton of mystery in them, so it's a bad place to bother comparing the two.

 

Or whatever, I guess clearly ASoIaF is better because it still hast 2 books to go rather than 1. Damn Jordan and Sanderson for writing faster.

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Or is it that some people skew facts to better support their point? Compare your percentages above to 50% and "almost done" which is what you originally said. Once again unresolved plotlines and "mysteries" are two very different things.

 

What are you trying to prove here? That one series has more mysteries than the other? That one has more plotlines? Which? Your original point was that if we compared small mysteries in both series like the Doom of Valyaria vs. what role Callandor has in the Last Battle, one series (I take it ASoIaF) has so many there was "no comparison." But you did compare the two, and both series have a TON. Do you really think WoT didn't have a million tiny mysteries throughout the series? What do you think the purpose of this website is if not to discuss the million tiny mysteries in WoT?

 

Your argument is now that ASoIaF is better because it's less complete and so less mysteries have been answered? How does that make either series better or worse?

 

At this point it seems you've completely dropped your argument in support of trying to prove neither are 50% complete, and now you're just railing SamVimes for bad math skills. So I guess you coincide that both have a ton of mystery in them, so it's a bad place to bother comparing the two.

 

Or whatever, I guess clearly ASoIaF is better because it still hast 2 books to go rather than 1. Damn Jordan and Sanderson for writing faster.

 

Kadere take a step back and a deep breath buddy.

 

Not sure why you aren't following the thread but we were discussing "major mysteries" ie callandor, Asmodeans killer etc. SamVines started listing things like Shaidar Haran, Red Veiled Aiel and the like which I pointed doesn't exactly fit that bill. I went on to say that if you did that same thing with aSoIaF you would never be able to stop. I never once said either book was better but aSoIaF has many more deep rooted mysteries that stretch across the whole story arc. SamVines claimed the reason for that was Wot was "almost done" and aSoIaF is only halfway through. Since that is plainly not true it shoots down the point he was trying to make.

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Not sure why you aren't following the thread but we were discussing "major mysteries" ie callandor, Asmodeans killer etc. SamVines started listing things like Shaidar Haran, Red Veiled Aiel and the like which I pointed doesn't exactly fit that bill. I went on to say that if you did that same thing with aSoIaF you would never be able to stop. I never once said either book was better but aSoIaF has many more deep rooted mysteries that stretch across the whole story arc. SamVines claimed the reason for that was Wot was "almost done" and aSoIaF is only halfway through. Since that is plainly not true it shoots down the point he was trying to make.

 

SamVimes says

 

Mystery... Yes, ASoIaF has its mysteries. Jon Snow's backstory, what happened to Benjen, who is the one called ASoIaF, etc.... but to say Asmodean is the only WoT mystery is simplistic. We have Asmodean, we have Callandor, the Eye of the World, the Red Aiel, the Strike at Shayol Ghul, Moiraine's disappearance, who is Shaidar Haran, what will happen when Rand breaks teh seals, etc etc... you can't count against WoT just ebcause the series is further along in its story arc than Westeros.

 

To which you responded

 

Out of all listed for the WoT the only that really count as such on a large scale are Callandor and Moiraine(is there anyone that hadn't figured that out?). The rest is just picking out questions you may have. If you did that with aSoIaF you would go on for days...Others, Dragons, Warlocks, Red Priests, Shadow Lands, The Doom, Maesters, R & L, Faceless Men, Bloodraven, Weirwoods, Greenseers, Ashara Dayne, The Sphinx, Griff/Young Griff, Euron Crows Eye, Children of the Forest etc etc etc there is absolutely no comparison.

 

So you compared the two by listing a bunch of smaller mysteries in ASoIaF to the smaller mysteries Sam pointed out are in WoT. You claim ASoIaF has "many more deep rooted mysteries that stretch across the whole story arc," and yet the ones you listed are no more deep than the ones Sam listed are in WoT. So where are these "many more"? You go on to say there is "no comparison" despite a) comparing the two and b) not showing at all that one has more than the other or why this makes one superior.

 

Sam is merely claiming that WoT is well into it's final act while ASoIaF has only just finished it's second. It's essentially where WoT was after CoT or there abouts. The final act has yet to come, and that's where many mysteries like Jon's parentage will be answered, presumably. You arguing that his math is wrong doesn't prove anything about which series has more mysteries, or which mysteries are better, or which series is stronger, or anything. Which is what you were originally trying to prove by stating "there is no comparison."

 

And now arguing about math only shows that you've conceded the original point that both series have a ton of mysteries in them, not that Sam is wrong about anything.

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