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What will Egwene do at FOM?


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And the AS have fallen a long way from KoD anyway.

 

What?!?! The WT has been reunited, rooted out the Forsken/BA influence and started reforms looking to the future. It most certainly has not fallen a long way since KoD.

 

Thinking this might end in some sort of armed confrontation is just a ridiculous wish fulfillment fantasy on xxx's part.

 

Er..no. There are large organizations/areas of Randland today who have no AS respect, so they went from a group with near universal pull in Randland("any monarch will obey an Amyrlin summons") to a severe lessening of influence( Between the Dragon and Tuon,they control near 3/4 of Randland, can Egwene summon one of them?)

 

Egwene was hoping Rand not "force her hand" ..so anything but an armed confrontation makes Egwene look really foolish.

Edited by XXX47
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Such terrible trolling attempts Elan, you are really weakening :(

 

 

it's really not trolling if its the truth.

 

fact no 1: rand has got no plan.

fact no 2: he's asking min for way to seal it differently from last time

fact no 3: when he was asked by egwene to plan before smashing the seals, he practically told her to get off and walked away.

 

Conclusion: he must be bored. Perhaps he ought to visit the BT where he took his eye off the ball. People have been turned because the lord dragon is too busy getting Aes sedai backs up. He cant even clean up after his own created mess and yet this guy is supposed to save the world. Somewhere robert jordan is having a laugh.

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I think its going to go like this

 

Egwene will be unable to get her people to figure anything out in relation to the sealing, so she will come out with guns a blazing, and confront rand in a rather agressive way

rand will simply say that he knew they wouldnt find the answer on their own, and that since 'the libraries of tar valon is the greatest in the world' or some such, rand needed her to get her people to start doing the research so that he may combine what they find with mins research

 

egwene will finally realize that rand is not insane or a man who found peace with the crimes he has committed. but rather a completely sane man.

 

 

somewhere in there egwene will get a does of humility, in the form of her blundering or being made to look a fool in front of all her AS and followers

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Such terrible trolling attempts Elan, you are really weakening :(

 

 

it's really not trolling if its the truth.

 

fact no 1: rand has got no plan.

fact no 2: he's asking min for way to seal it differently from last time

fact no 3: when he was asked by egwene to plan before smashing the seals, he practically told her to get off and walked away.

 

As much as I hate to say it, Elan does have a point on those first three...

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1) Since we haven't had any proper POV from him in POM, we don't really know if he got any plans regarding the Bore or not. Egwene herself seems rather confident that Rand knows how to seal the Bore, but that he should do it without breaking the seals themselves. Actually, non of the POVs we've gotten have had any doubt in Rands ability to seal the Bore again, but rather doubting his intentions to break the seals. What we do know is that Rand was very good at manipulating people before his merge with LTT, and it can't possibly have gotten any worse with 400 years of political experience from AOL.

 

2) As far as I recall, he's actually not asking Min regarding the Bore at all in TOM. In TGS she came to the same conclussion he had, that he had to break the seals before he could seal it again. Since then she's been focused on Callandor and it's importance for Rand and The Last Battle.

 

3) Judging from the only Rand PoV in ToM, I think it's fair to assume that he said what he did to Egwene with the intentions to get her to gather the various monarchs of the world to "oppose him". He even goes as far as saying that he actually expected her to do this, hinting that he intentionally manipulated Egwene in the Hall to do this exact thing.

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1) Since we haven't had any proper POV from him in POM, we don't really know if he got any plans regarding the Bore or not. Egwene herself seems rather confident that Rand knows how to seal the Bore, but that he should do it without breaking the seals themselves. Actually, non of the POVs we've gotten have had any doubt in Rands ability to seal the Bore again, but rather doubting his intentions to break the seals. What we do know is that Rand was very good at manipulating people before his merge with LTT, and it can't possibly have gotten any worse with 400 years of political experience from AOL.

 

2) As far as I recall, he's actually not asking Min regarding the Bore at all in TOM. In TGS she came to the same conclussion he had, that he had to break the seals before he could seal it again. Since then she's been focused on Callandor and it's importance for Rand and The Last Battle.

 

Are you kidding he admits flat out he doesn't have the answers yet and ask Min for help from the books she has been reading...

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He does? I'm fairly sure he doesn't specifically asks her ANYTHING about the Bore after VoG. The thing she is researching in ToM is only related to Callandor, and it's the only thing he says he needs her help to find out about, nothing regarding the Bore since VoG.

 

Admittedly, he does say, in the start of ToM, that he doesn't have the exact answer on how to seal the Bore, but we also have no idea what he was doing for over 20 days of that 1 month between his visit to Egwene and the meeting at FOM. Fact is, we haven't had any POVs from him in ToM, on purpose, so we do not really have ANY idea regarding his plan about the Bore besides the fact that he will break the seals.

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Basically Majsju has it right, except for the silliness about Egwene haters. This strikes me as a reasonable question with which to begin a thread.

 

I don't agree with Kael about the ta'veren thing. We have no evidence whatsoever that ta'veren effect has no impact if you are already inclined in a particular direction. None. We do have evidence that ta'veren power isn't something that can be consciously "used" (or abused). We do have evidence that Egwene felt exactly the same physical effects that others who have come under ta'veren influence felt. Why write about her dizziness if it doesn't mean anything? Practically the definition of Chekhov's Gun.

 

Ok this is just dumb now... let me walk you through it. If you are ta'veren and I hate ice cream and you say "let's go for icecream", I'll say yes, even though I hate icecream, because I'm weak willed. I get all dizzy after and am like wtf I hate icecream!

 

Now let's say I love icecream, and you ask "Let's go for icecream". I say yes because it's what I am inclined to to. Your ta'veren effect has nothing to do. I still get dizzy sure cause I was caught in your whirlpool, but I was already going to go that way.

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As for the topic question, I honestly have no idea. I am looking forward to finding out. But I find it very hard to accept that she would try to hurt, kill, or immobilize Rand.

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Rand may or may not have any idea...we know Egwene does not know ANYTHING about the bore or the seals.

 

That is hardly the point of the thread..Egwene said that she "hopes that he does not force her hand"...what "hand" would that be. Try to take on the Dragon in an OP fight?

Edited by XXX47
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Basically Majsju has it right, except for the silliness about Egwene haters. This strikes me as a reasonable question with which to begin a thread.

 

I don't agree with Kael about the ta'veren thing. We have no evidence whatsoever that ta'veren effect has no impact if you are already inclined in a particular direction. None. We do have evidence that ta'veren power isn't something that can be consciously "used" (or abused). We do have evidence that Egwene felt exactly the same physical effects that others who have come under ta'veren influence felt. Why write about her dizziness if it doesn't mean anything? Practically the definition of Chekhov's Gun.

 

Ok this is just dumb now... let me walk you through it. If you are ta'veren and I hate ice cream and you say "let's go for icecream", I'll say yes, even though I hate icecream, because I'm weak willed. I get all dizzy after and am like wtf I hate icecream!

 

Now let's say I love icecream, and you ask "Let's go for icecream". I say yes because it's what I am inclined to to. Your ta'veren effect has nothing to do. I still get dizzy sure cause I was caught in your whirlpool, but I was already going to go that way.

 

You are completely missing the point. We are not talking about a decision Egwene would never have made. Of course this was one option she would have considered. One option of many.

 

The actual decision she made is however just a part of it. Another part, and one I consider far bigger) is the process of reaching that decision. She immidiatly accepts it, and does not stop for a second to consider what other options there are, so she can weigh them against eachother to see which one is the most optimal. Something Egwene would normally have done.

 

Look at all the pieces here. We know from the other Aes sedai that Rands ta'veren pull is in full gear during the meeting. We know she made the exact decision Rand wanted her to make. We see her reach that decision in a way that is completely out of character. And we see her feel typical effects from one directly influenced by a ta'veren.

 

And yet we are supposed it was just a coincidene? That it was just dumb luck that she picked the right decision? Maybe if she momentarily switched soul with Mat.

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Rand may or may not have any idea...we know Egwene does not know ANYTHING about the bore or the seals.

 

That is hardly the point of the thread..Egwene said that she "hopes that he does not force her hand"...what "hand" would that be. Try to take on the Dragon in an OP fight?

 

Oh stop being ridiculous, she could have meant any number of rather benign things as I suggested. And personally I always assumed she just meant force her hand into parading the monarchs and leaders she thinks she can gather infront of rand. And she says it that way because she doesn't want to be, or be seen opposing Rand on anything. So he's forcing her hand into making it very, very public. That is all.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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Rand may or may not have any idea...we know Egwene does not know ANYTHING about the bore or the seals.

 

That is hardly the point of the thread..Egwene said that she "hopes that he does not force her hand"...what "hand" would that be. Try to take on the Dragon in an OP fight?

 

Oh stop being ridiculous, she could have meant any number of rather benign things as I suggested. And personally I always assumed she just meant force her hand into parading the monarchs and leaders she thinks she can gather infront of rand. And she says it that way because she doesn't want to be, or be seen opposing Rand on anything. So he's forcing her hand into making it very, very public. That is all.

 

How exactly that does stop him from breaking the seal?...I don't understand.

 

Already all the monarchs she has asked to come to the field know she is opposing Rand...so what is new in parading them?

Edited by XXX47
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The levels the anti-egwene crowd can stoop to is almost mindblowing at times.

 

But, I'll pretend i take this thread seriously, just so there will be at least one decent post here.

 

Egwene will do nothing. She will not try to do anything, other than hosting a meeting. A meeting where she will explain the situation. rand will keep insisting on that he must break the seals despite not having a clue what to do next. People will shout, taking Egwenes side, Rands side, or a side they just invented on the spot. Until messages starts coming about the attack on Caemlyn, about Tarwins Gap, and possibly even about the Seanchans next attack on the WT (the timeline allows for that to happen).

 

Messages that will change the nature of the meeting, from a discussion about the seals, to all of the lights forces starting to work together to fight back. Keep in mind that the main reason Egwene called all these forces was Rands ta'veren influencing her. Which means that the Pattern needs them to be there, at that very moment. Even rand is a slave under the pattern, so it is very possible his ta'veren influenced himself to come up with 30 days, so the meeting takes place just as the Shadow makes its move.

 

So the real question should be, What will the Pattern force people to do at FoM?

 

Good post. Two other things to throw in there. First, Aviendha may arrive and the future of the Aiel may play a big part in what happens there. Second, Moiraine's appearance will also cause quite a stir as well. Heck, Logain is also unaccounted for, and we've seen 10,000,000 references of glory to come, it's about time he earned some.

 

Still, I agree that Lan's battle at the Gap, the attack on Caemlyn, events at the BT, will drive things. And much to the disappointment of many here, Egwene will act like an adult. Rand might even deign to explain his thinking to her, which would help.

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The levels the anti-egwene crowd can stoop to is almost mindblowing at times.

 

But, I'll pretend i take this thread seriously, just so there will be at least one decent post here.

 

Egwene will do nothing. She will not try to do anything, other than hosting a meeting. A meeting where she will explain the situation. rand will keep insisting on that he must break the seals despite not having a clue what to do next. People will shout, taking Egwenes side, Rands side, or a side they just invented on the spot. Until messages starts coming about the attack on Caemlyn, about Tarwins Gap, and possibly even about the Seanchans next attack on the WT (the timeline allows for that to happen).

 

Messages that will change the nature of the meeting, from a discussion about the seals, to all of the lights forces starting to work together to fight back. Keep in mind that the main reason Egwene called all these forces was Rands ta'veren influencing her. Which means that the Pattern needs them to be there, at that very moment. Even rand is a slave under the pattern, so it is very possible his ta'veren influenced himself to come up with 30 days, so the meeting takes place just as the Shadow makes its move.

 

So the real question should be, What will the Pattern force people to do at FoM?

 

Good post. Two other things to throw in there. First, Aviendha may arrive and the future of the Aiel may play a big part in what happens there. Second, Moiraine's appearance will also cause quite a stir as well. Heck, Logain is also unaccounted for, and we've seen 10,000,000 references of glory to come, it's about time he earned some.

 

Still, I agree that Lan's battle at the Gap, the attack on Caemlyn, events at the BT, will drive things. And much to the disappointment of many here, Egwene will act like an adult. Rand might even deign to explain his thinking to her, which would help.

 

Good point about Avi, I had actually forgotten about her, even though she brings something very interseting to the table.

 

In her trip to Rhuidean, we get several references to 'the Dragons Peace', which apparently was something Rand demanded of everyone in order to go to SG. Which means it is something he would have done (and thus will do) at FoM. And, apparently the Seanchan are also held by it, suggesting that Tuon will appear at FoM, though noone has invited her.

 

All of a sudden it got really complicated.

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He does? I'm fairly sure he doesn't specifically asks her ANYTHING about the Bore after VoG. The thing she is researching in ToM is only related to Callandor, and it's the only thing he says he needs her help to find out about, nothing regarding the Bore since VoG.

 

Yes he does, he admits he doesn't have the answers and later asks Min...

 

ToM "For What Has Been Wrought"

"I need you, Min"...."You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I missing something, something vital. Find it for me"

 

You are thinking of a second conversation when they discuss the prophecy and possible second flaw in Callandor. As Rand thinks it will be key to the sealing the two can't really be separated however.

Edited by Suttree
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If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet". He certainly knows more and has a better chance to come up with a complete plan than Egwene who knows nothing and has done nothing in connection to the sealing (apart from opposing Rand).

 

You could as well argue that Egwene is a blademaster, better blacksmith than Perrin, better healer than Nynaeve and sings better than Loreena McKennit. C'mon people, that's ridiculous. There has been no sign, in all the books, of Egwene ever taking any interest in the manner and mechanism of the sealing and ways of fighting the DO. She concentrated on other things and she should stick to them - organizing and leading the Aes Sedai, Dreaming...Isn't it enough?

Edited by PiotrekS
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egwene will not be doing any physical or using some forceful persuasion to change Rand's mind.

 

there wont be time for anything.

 

FoM was meant to be where Rand proposes the Dragon's Peace but the meeting will not go ahead as planned because of the WT and Caemlyn Attack.

 

and of course Moiraine will make a spectacular entry and I believe she will be the bridge between Egwene and Rand. i think she might have the knowledge Rand is looking for, maybe one of her wishes, and Min will help Rand figure out the true purpose of Callandor.

 

all the armies had to be at FoM because of the attacks and Egwene will need help to save the WT, from armies and male and female channelers and so will Elayne.

 

after the attacks have been stopped, the true meeting will occur with The Empress present, and then the Rand will bind the Nine moons to him somehow and introduce the dragon's peace, his price.

 

well thats what i think will happen.

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If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet". He certainly knows more and has a better chance to come up with a complete plan than Egwene who knows nothing and has done nothing in connection to the sealing (apart from opposing Rand).

 

You could as well argue that Egwene is a blademaster, better blacksmith than Perrin, better healer than Nynaeve and sings better than Loreena McKennit. C'mon people, that's ridiculous. There has been no sign, in all the books, of Egwene ever taking any interest in the manner and mechanism of the sealing and ways of fighting the DO. She concentrated on other things and she should stick to them - organizing and leading the Aes Sedai, Dreaming...Isn't it enough?

 

You are assuming Egwene would take it upon herself to come up with any plans. As it happens, she is the leader of several hundreds of Aes Sedai, chances are she jst might be able to dig up a sister or two who have spent decades, if not centuries actually studying the prophecies, the seals, the Bore etc. Chances are Egwene would want these sisters to work together with Rand, instead of everyone running around coming up with their own little plans.

 

Though, I think Egwene could provide some really useful advice as well. Remember a certain book she recently got possession of? Rand may have a bunch of memories from LTT, Egwene has inside scoop from the Shadow.

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If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet". He certainly knows more and has a better chance to come up with a complete plan than Egwene who knows nothing and has done nothing in connection to the sealing (apart from opposing Rand).

 

You could as well argue that Egwene is a blademaster, better blacksmith than Perrin, better healer than Nynaeve and sings better than Loreena McKennit. C'mon people, that's ridiculous. There has been no sign, in all the books, of Egwene ever taking any interest in the manner and mechanism of the sealing and ways of fighting the DO. She concentrated on other things and she should stick to them - organizing and leading the Aes Sedai, Dreaming...Isn't it enough?

 

You are assuming Egwene would take it upon herself to come up with any plans. As it happens, she is the leader of several hundreds of Aes Sedai, chances are she jst might be able to dig up a sister or two who have spent decades, if not centuries actually studying the prophecies, the seals, the Bore etc. Chances are Egwene would want these sisters to work together with Rand, instead of everyone running around coming up with their own little plans.

 

Though, I think Egwene could provide some really useful advice as well. Remember a certain book she recently got possession of? Rand may have a bunch of memories from LTT, Egwene has inside scoop from the Shadow.

 

I agree that the collective effort and pooling of resources would be best. Both Rand's and Egwene's attitudes make it difficult though - Rand has explained nothing, Egwene has treated him as just another of her ignorant subjects.

 

You could argue that there might be sisters who specialize in lost AoL knowledge and the DO - it might be true. But acknowledge as well that Egwene is never shown as looking for such sisters or drawing on their knowledge in reaching her conclusions. Egwene is shown as trusting mainly herself, seeking no other's counsel (maybe with the exception of her Keeper and Nynaeve - but she listens to her only when she likes what she hears. Otherwise she dismisses Nynaeve's opinions as ta'veren influenced) When she opposes Rand, she does so for three reasons:

 

1. Her personal, intuitive feeling that breaking the seals would be bad. She does not consult on this, she does not quote any sisters specializing in Bore sealing. Her rejection is outright and coming strictly from her own thoughts and opinions (reinforced by her interpretation of her dream).

Her attitude could even be called careless or neglectful, when she says to Nynaeve something like: "Surely Rand can seal the Bore without taking this risk". How does she know that? How does she know Rand can seal the Bore at all? If she expects Rand to seal the Bore, shouldn't she respect his opinion on this matter a little more? It is similar to me

(being no physicist) saying things like: "Surely this Large Hadron Collider didn't have to be built! Surely they could have achieved the same with a refrigerator, a hammer and two little furry hamsters!" Surely I know nothing about these things and so does she.

 

2. She had felt the political need to oppose Rand before he even opened his mouth. Her Aes Sedai followers could not be allowed to see the all-powerful Amyrlin not commanding or dominating over everyone and everything. She thought to herself:"They must see me confront him!". Not talk with him, not consult with him, not advise him. Confront.

 

3. She was afraid Rand was mad. Furthermore, she was very distrustful towards men generally. She felt superior to Rand and other boys even in the Two Rivers, in the EotW. She is a person strongly influened by the sexist views of her society, even though most other, more positive traces of this society are gone from her mind. She could not accept his idea in such an important matter because he might have been crazy and even if he wasn't, he still was only a woolhead man.

 

As to Verin's book, it was about the Black Ajah. Why do you think it should have any relevance to the matter of saealing the Bore? It wasn't a compendium of all Verin's knowledge about the Shadow (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not 100% sure). Verin herself could be very helpful, but alas she was not there.

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I can imagine a few things Egwene may think of to prevent Rand from breaking the seals in case her attempt to impress him with the unity of the people against his plan fails. The most radical would be to oppose him with force, but Egwene isn't stupid or arrogant enough to try such a thing. She knows that to use force against the Dragon is doomed to fail.

 

What I could see her try to do is to take a leaf out of the legendary Fateful Concord. She makes a ruling that no Aes Sedai is to aid the Dragon Reborn in sealing the DO should he not wait to break the seals and convinces the Wise Ones to also deny Rand their help. Rand has already admitted that he will need a female channeller if he is to seal the DO properly. Without Aes Sedai and Wise Ones or specifically Nyneave and Aviendha the only one he has with sufficient strength to aid him is Alivia and Egwene doesn't know of her as far as I know.

 

A more devious alternative would be to raise the stakes for Rand by telling him of Elayne's pregnancy. I'm sure that will come as a big surprise to Rand and if there's anything that might help Egwene reinforce the doubts he certainly must have about the risk he is about to undertake it's his unborn children.

 

Well, I doubt it'll come to that anyways. FOM will be Rand's show mostly and probably Aviendha's since that's where the fate of the Aiel will be decided. Egwene is just one of the pieces Rand is moving there. He'll dictate his terms and Aviendha will make the necessary amendments and then all hell will break loose whether it's because the Seanchan attack, the attack on Caemlyn or Lan fighting in Tarvin's Gap.

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If I'm not mistaken, Rand said "I don't have all the answers yet". He certainly knows more and has a better chance to come up with a complete plan than Egwene who knows nothing and has done nothing in connection to the sealing (apart from opposing Rand).

 

You could as well argue that Egwene is a blademaster, better blacksmith than Perrin, better healer than Nynaeve and sings better than Loreena McKennit. C'mon people, that's ridiculous. There has been no sign, in all the books, of Egwene ever taking any interest in the manner and mechanism of the sealing and ways of fighting the DO. She concentrated on other things and she should stick to them - organizing and leading the Aes Sedai, Dreaming...Isn't it enough?

 

You are assuming Egwene would take it upon herself to come up with any plans. As it happens, she is the leader of several hundreds of Aes Sedai, chances are she jst might be able to dig up a sister or two who have spent decades, if not centuries actually studying the prophecies, the seals, the Bore etc. Chances are Egwene would want these sisters to work together with Rand, instead of everyone running around coming up with their own little plans.

 

Though, I think Egwene could provide some really useful advice as well. Remember a certain book she recently got possession of? Rand may have a bunch of memories from LTT, Egwene has inside scoop from the Shadow.

 

 

Her opposition to breaking the seals is not the result of research by any AS or from knowledge in Verrin's book..and we the readers know the seals have to be broken. So it is pretty safe to say that no AS under Egwene has a clue to anything about the bore.

 

Also the fight against the DO is not her responsibility...she is a secondary character to help the Dragon. She does not have authority to take charge.

But again we are deviating from the topic..Egwene said she will stop Rand from breaking the seals. How will she accomplish that?

Edited by XXX47
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But would forkroot work on the True Power? After all Rand managed to break the bracelets that stopped him touching saidin by touching the True Power.

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Rand may have a bunch of memories from LTT, Egwene has inside scoop from the Shadow.

 

"A bunch of memories".. that seems a wholly inadequate way to describe Rand remembering everything Lews Therin himself knew. Rand needs the female channellers to cooperate with him power-wise but there really isn't anything they can tell him. Any scraps of paper they have that mention the Dark One from the AOL is useless as Rand likely knows it already. We're talking about the guy who fought the dastardly thing for ages and then sealed it away (if inadequately, but he cannot be blamed for that).

 

We're talking about the guy who "humbled" Elan Morin Tedronai in the Hall of Servants (I take this to mean they got into a debate when Ishamael announced himself and Lews Therin came out on top, philosophically speaking).

 

He knows the Dark One, he created the very seals he is going to destroy.

 

I was asked earlier in this thread if I'd like a dictatorship of Rand never listening to his advisers.. well.. yea, why not? He's the divinely appointed guardian of existence and was the greatest man in mankind's greatest Age. I think I'd trust him to know what he's doing.

 

But would forkroot work on the True Power? After all Rand managed to break the bracelets that stopped him touching saidin by touching the True Power.

 

The True Power is the Dark One's power, Rand wont touch it.

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