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Kahsm

The epicness of Mazrim Taim

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Maybe its been too long since I posted on DM, but it seems like all of this was hashed out during the gap between KoD and tGS. Taim is not Demandred, and Taim cannot be Moridin. Yes, I'll admit that Bashere had trouble recognizing Taim when he first appeared onscreen in Caemlyn, but you cannot jump from that and assume that Moridin is Ishamael put into Taim's body.

 

Taim has been forcibly turned to the shadow using the 13 darkfriends weaving through 13 myrdraal method. That is why Bashere did not recognize him right away. I do not have any direct proof of this, but if you think about some things from ToM it makes sense. Think about the scenes from Androl's pov; specifically the one near the end of ToM that ends with him seeking out Pevara. Mezar is returned and made a full Ashaman. Androl and the others with him all agree that Mezar is not the same guy he used to be. I'll quote the relevant passage:

 

"It's not really Mezar. Oh it has Mezar's face, right enough. But its not him, I can see it in his eyes. Trouble is, whatever the thing is, it has Mezar's memories. Talks right like him. But the smile is wrong. All wrong." Towers of Midnight, Hardback Edition, Chapter 56; p. 818.

 

It has Mezar's memories, so we know it is not a transmigrated Chosen. And Mezar has been made a full Ashaman. And Mezar isn't the only one whose eyes/behavior are unfamiliar to friends in ToM. Tarna suddenly is acting wrong to Pevara. I think there are a couple more examples. The more I think about it, the more I realize it's similar to the reaction Bashere had to Taim in LoC; recognizing him, but something being wrong.

 

The shadow already had the Black Ajah, but it needed male channelers, now Taim is recruiting darkfriends to the Black Tower and forcibly turning other channelers. I am quite sure it is at Moridin's direction since Moridin has the only dreamspike left. This would also fit the BS not being able to say whether Taim is a darkfriend.

 

EDIT: I realized after posting that this thread was for humorous theories. Sorry.

 

Wasn't so much for humorous ones, but "out-there" plausible ones. Yous, as you said, is somewhat mainstream. Except Taim hasn't been described the same way the other suspected 13x13ed have. So I think most are going with he's Moridin 13x13ing ashaman.

 

While I'm not big on Taim is Moridin, I'm curious as to why you say he Can't he Moridin. I'm not aware of any definitive proof against it.

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Taim is Asmodean. The DO, being pissed that Asmodean helped Rand, decided to punish him by ressurecting him as Taim and having the body be surrounded by 13 mydraal and 13 black ajah. Taim does appear right after asmodean disappears, and bashere doesn't fully recognize taim. Additionally, when the DO tells Greandal she was responsible for Asmodean's death, he was sayign that to make her feel her failure more.

 

Great theory. Just great. I vote for this (when we don't talk about plausible/non-plausible).

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Taim isn't Moridin, because Rand saw Moridin in Shadar Lorgoth when he was fighting Sammeal. And later on he identifies the face in his mind as the man who helped him in Shadar Lorgoth. The times that we've seen Moridin he's be at his palace in the blight.

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Mazrim Taim is one of my favorite characters of the entire series because he is a free thinker! Remember when he first meets Rand? They are discussing the Dragon Prophecies and Taim talks about them just being words. He says that any person could fulfill them and suggests that maybe they aren't as set in stone as people think. I like that.

 

Honestly, I think Taim is his own man, with true allegiance to none other. I think he has his own agenda. If I wanted anyone to start a country of freemen in Randland, I would want it to be Taim. He is a philosopher as well as a Free Thinker and is willing to do hard work, as evidenced by his acceptance of the responsibility for the Black Tower.

 

He should start a revolution. He seems the sort of guy to do it! :aessedai:

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I would rather see Taim as having joined the Shadow out of his own free will. Makes him more bad-ass

 

I think it would be pretty cool if Taim was a highly placed DF working under nobody's instructions but the DO's(and thru him SH). Instead of him being controlled by a Forsaken he is a Dreadlord who is not 1 of the "Chosen" but is working to get there.

Edited by Darren heron-Mark Clayden

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There's little question that whoever Taim is he has AoL knowlage and memory and while I dissmiss any Demandred theory the Moridin one could be posible but Rand met with Moridin in his dreams and only then did he recognise the new body with Ishamael but no remarks on that it was Taims body. Moridin could have mirrored himself when being Taim but now we're starting to stretch it a bit too far and I think Moridin have other things to do than train asha'man.

 

The Asmodean theory is quite interesting though since Taim has none of Asmodeans personal attributes he'd have had to be 13x13'ed for it to fit.

 

 

My own theory is that Taim is Taim though he suffers the same fate as Rand. What I mean by htat is that he hears the voice of an old life inside his head or rather heard an old life's voice. He was turning mad and the voice was controlling him much in the same way LTT would take control of Rand's actions in the later books.

He was captured but freed by BA who took him to SG where DO or Ishamael(belive he was still his old self then) granted him the DO protection from the taint.

I leave it open to speculate if the voice is in control, they're both in his head like Rand pre VoG or if they've merged.

 

This all builds on that Taim was a darkfriend in his previous life ofcourse. If he was it in his present life remain to see but even if not then either his past self took full control or he was just 13x13'ed.

 

We do know that it's rare but not unheard of to hear voices of a past lifes as a result of the madness and apparantly it wasn't unheard of even before the taint(hinted in the aftermath of the meeting in KoD after Rand loses his hand).

 

I'm also open for Demandreds involvment in planting Taim near Rand. DO laughing his ass off at the end of LoC when Demandred asks if he did good suggests it.

Edited by Saitan

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There's little question that whoever Taim is he has AoL knowlage and memory and while I dissmiss any Demandred theory the Moridin one could be posible but Rand met with Moridin in his dreams and only then did he recognise the new body with Ishamael but no remarks on that it was Taims body. Moridin could have mirrored himself when being Taim but now we're starting to stretch it a bit too far and I think Moridin have other things to do than train asha'man.

 

The thing that gets me about these comments is that Moridin using a disguise, be it True Power or otherwise, is absolutely not a stretch. Meeting Moridin in his dreams does little to disprove anything; it was a dream, so Moridins disguise wouldnt be switched on. And we know Demandred has dealings with the Darkfriend Ashaman, so whats to say it isnt him thats training them? Moridin did the recruiting to set the ball rolling, then began 13x13ing them. Running the Black Tower and the fortress in the Blight is a single task, Ive said that many times. We have no idea what goes on in Taims special classes other than that it almost certainly has something to do with the 13x13ing. I find it hard to believe that Taim has access to Fades.

 

Moridin doesnt have to train them. He lets Demandred do that, to a point. But Moridin without a doubt has Darkfriend Ashaman at his personal disposal, we know that both from Kismans PoV and from Graendal being summoned to him by one.

 

It explains every single oddity about Taim, from his confidence-and sometimes curiosity-around Rand, to his flash of rage at the Sword and Dragon, to the almost-obvious AoL knowledge, to the access to Fades needed to 13x13. The Black Tower is hardly beneath the Nae'blis considering the methods "Taim" is using.

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There's little question that whoever Taim is he has AoL knowlage and memory and while I dissmiss any Demandred theory the Moridin one could be posible but Rand met with Moridin in his dreams and only then did he recognise the new body with Ishamael but no remarks on that it was Taims body. Moridin could have mirrored himself when being Taim but now we're starting to stretch it a bit too far and I think Moridin have other things to do than train asha'man.

 

The thing that gets me about these comments is that Moridin using a disguise, be it True Power or otherwise, is absolutely not a stretch. Meeting Moridin in his dreams does little to disprove anything; it was a dream, so Moridins disguise wouldnt be switched on. And we know Demandred has dealings with the Darkfriend Ashaman, so whats to say it isnt him thats training them? Moridin did the recruiting to set the ball rolling, then began 13x13ing them. Running the Black Tower and the fortress in the Blight is a single task, Ive said that many times. We have no idea what goes on in Taims special classes other than that it almost certainly has something to do with the 13x13ing. I find it hard to believe that Taim has access to Fades.

 

Moridin doesnt have to train them. He lets Demandred do that, to a point. But Moridin without a doubt has Darkfriend Ashaman at his personal disposal, we know that both from Kismans PoV and from Graendal being summoned to him by one.

 

It explains every single oddity about Taim, from his confidence-and sometimes curiosity-around Rand, to his flash of rage at the Sword and Dragon, to the almost-obvious AoL knowledge, to the access to Fades needed to 13x13. The Black Tower is hardly beneath the Nae'blis considering the methods "Taim" is using.

 

While you have convinced me of this in a previous thread, at least the practical side of me. The side of me that started this thread has a few qualms.

 

Qualm the first. RJ's thing about 'Taeem'. Seems odd that he's got an AoL-style, actual name. Unless you suggest Taim NEVER existed and has always been Ishy in disguise. But I don't think he was "real" enough back in tEotW or early tGH when Taim started his campaign. Obviously it could just be a guy's name, but it seems extremely suspicious to me, and from reading the quotes, RJ seemed particularly concerned that people pronounced his name right, as if it were some clue.

 

Second, if it's Moridin, and he planned what he's got so far, it makes no sense to me the whole negotiating for power sharing thing at the start and the fury Taim seems to have about being "second". That seems to point to him being a real false dragon. He wants to be the dragon, he wants to be the one in the spotlight, and may still consider himself the dragon as his "phaw, prophecies smophicies" attitude described earlier suggests. If it was Moridin, you'd think he'd be happy with his position to set things up as you suggest he's doing. He should act more like Logain is: Arrogant, but accepting his role, as long as he has the freedom to skulk about and 13x13 people.

 

That's about it really, beyond my wish to side with the usual criticisms that do have some answers but lend credence to my own dislike of the 'simple' solution: double orders and 'not enough time'.

 

Here's my crazy theory from my theoryland post. It's actually a comment on a theory that Mazrim Taim rode in a stasis box from the AoL, which I do not believe, but this is my twist on it:

 

I think I'd actually combine this theory with the old personality take over theory that a 2nd ager took over Mazrim Taim.

 

In my version, I'd say Mazrim Ta-eem, a 2nd ager, took over some 3rd age farmer... an ancestor of Taim's who had the DO prison seal that was passed down along their family line. Given Taim's quote on Aiel, he was likely an Aes Sedai, so this farmer may have strong OP genes that caused him to spark, get tainted, and taken over by Taim's larger than life personality (evidence below).

 

In the personality theory, there was a long and heated discussion over the "Realness" of the voices caused by the taint. This is irrelevant. I'm not suggesting the farmer is being puppeteered by some AoLer. It is just that the taint let enough of Taim's AoL memories and personality into the farmers' head that the farmer's meek personality got pushed aside.

 

"RJ: They have one soul with two personalities[...]" Referring to Rand and LTT.

 

If Taim's personality was sufficiently big, and this farmer's quite meek, they may both still be there, but the Taim's keeps the farmer subdued. Therefore, Mazrim Taim is a shadow of someone from the AoL, long dead, existing in a new body. Which very nicely explains why none of the Chosen would recognize 'one of their own', but why old LTT memories could recognize old Taim memories.

 

I can add a little more to this with some suggestive evidence of the personality change moment in this RJ Q&A quote:

 

"WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

RJ: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly - traveling quietly is not in his character."

 

RJ clearly states Taim can't help but be a "larger than life" character. He needs to be the center of attention all the time. Obviously, we get more evidence of that when he's trying to negotiate his position with Rand. This just confirms that Taim could likely snuff out any regular competing personalities he might share a mind with.

 

However RJ's answer raises a question. Before he declared himself as the Dragon Reborn, who was he? As far as I can remember no one has a back story on the man who supposedly conducts himself in this "larger than life" manner even when he's trying to be discrete. Very odd. You don't become so big headed after claiming to be the Dragon Reborn, you're probably already like that. However, this could be explained if he was just some saldean farmer with a different personality before he declared himself.

 

Also, RJ said that Taim was in his late 20s. The stasis argument somewhat falls apart around this (though you could make the case that stasis time doesn't count I guess). However in the personality argument, this would refer to the age of Mazrim's host body.

 

Then there's the question, why does he appear to be immune to the taint? Answer: He's not, he's just already 100% crazy. The voices are all that's left of him.

 

So in summary, this would be how my proposed scenario pans out in the storyline:

 

Some male sparker saldean farmer is hiding out, knowing what he is, what he can do, and what the Reds would do to him. He starts going mad, alone in his farmhouse, maybe he kills his family (for added drama, clearly no evidence for that). Eventually, the memories of his AoL ancestor Mazrim "Ta-eem" start breaking through. With his new memories he learns that the family heirloom is really a seal on the DO's prison. This revelation that his family has held a seal for generations, plus the added arrogance of Taim that has seeped into his brain, starts causing delusions of grandeur and kick starts his campaign as a false dragon. When he announces himself, he uses the name Mazrim Taim. And eventually, the memories win out and he shaves his beard and stops talking about himself in the third person... captured, breaks free... gives the seal to Rand... you know the rest.

 

Now, as I said my practical side is with Taimadin, but I think this would make him the coolest character. And the quote here from RJ about Taim's need to be the centre of attention makes very little sense IMO if he truly is Moridin. But thne again, it also makes little sense for a character who's been absent for 99% of the series.

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Moridin uses the power from the Dark One almost exclusively, presumably because he get as sick as Rand when channeling saidin after they crossed their streams. Taim doesn't.

 

Taim is Taim, possibly with the same "I have a guy from the Age of Legends stuck in my head" problem that Rand had before he went to Dragonmount. I'm guessing that Demandred is in the Black Tower running the show from behind the scenes, or he's behind the scenes in Murundy controlling Roedran, or he is Roedran.

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Here's my crazy theory from my theoryland post. It's actually a comment on a theory that Mazrim Taim rode in a stasis box from the AoL, which I do not believe, but this is my twist on it:

 

I think I'd actually combine this theory with the old personality take over theory that a 2nd ager took over Mazrim Taim.

 

In my version, I'd say Mazrim Ta-eem, a 2nd ager, took over some 3rd age farmer... an ancestor of Taim's who had the DO prison seal that was passed down along their family line. Given Taim's quote on Aiel, he was likely an Aes Sedai, so this farmer may have strong OP genes that caused him to spark, get tainted, and taken over by Taim's larger than life personality (evidence below).

 

In the personality theory, there was a long and heated discussion over the "Realness" of the voices caused by the taint. This is irrelevant. I'm not suggesting the farmer is being puppeteered by some AoLer. It is just that the taint let enough of Taim's AoL memories and personality into the farmers' head that the farmer's meek personality got pushed aside.

 

"RJ: They have one soul with two personalities[...]" Referring to Rand and LTT.

 

If Taim's personality was sufficiently big, and this farmer's quite meek, they may both still be there, but the Taim's keeps the farmer subdued. Therefore, Mazrim Taim is a shadow of someone from the AoL, long dead, existing in a new body. Which very nicely explains why none of the Chosen would recognize 'one of their own', but why old LTT memories could recognize old Taim memories.

 

I can add a little more to this with some suggestive evidence of the personality change moment in this RJ Q&A quote:

 

"WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

RJ: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly - traveling quietly is not in his character."

 

RJ clearly states Taim can't help but be a "larger than life" character. He needs to be the center of attention all the time. Obviously, we get more evidence of that when he's trying to negotiate his position with Rand. This just confirms that Taim could likely snuff out any regular competing personalities he might share a mind with.

 

However RJ's answer raises a question. Before he declared himself as the Dragon Reborn, who was he? As far as I can remember no one has a back story on the man who supposedly conducts himself in this "larger than life" manner even when he's trying to be discrete. Very odd. You don't become so big headed after claiming to be the Dragon Reborn, you're probably already like that. However, this could be explained if he was just some saldean farmer with a different personality before he declared himself.

 

Also, RJ said that Taim was in his late 20s. The stasis argument somewhat falls apart around this (though you could make the case that stasis time doesn't count I guess). However in the personality argument, this would refer to the age of Mazrim's host body.

 

Then there's the question, why does he appear to be immune to the taint? Answer: He's not, he's just already 100% crazy. The voices are all that's left of him.

 

So in summary, this would be how my proposed scenario pans out in the storyline:

 

Some male sparker saldean farmer is hiding out, knowing what he is, what he can do, and what the Reds would do to him. He starts going mad, alone in his farmhouse, maybe he kills his family (for added drama, clearly no evidence for that). Eventually, the memories of his AoL ancestor Mazrim "Ta-eem" start breaking through. With his new memories he learns that the family heirloom is really a seal on the DO's prison. This revelation that his family has held a seal for generations, plus the added arrogance of Taim that has seeped into his brain, starts causing delusions of grandeur and kick starts his campaign as a false dragon. When he announces himself, he uses the name Mazrim Taim. And eventually, the memories win out and he shaves his beard and stops talking about himself in the third person... captured, breaks free... gives the seal to Rand... you know the rest.

 

Now, as I said my practical side is with Taimadin, but I think this would make him the coolest character. And the quote here from RJ about Taim's need to be the centre of attention makes very little sense IMO if he truly is Moridin. But thne again, it also makes little sense for a character who's been absent for 99% of the series.

 

Why did you post this here? This is for crazy theories only. :wacko:

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Moridin uses the power from the Dark One almost exclusively, presumably because he get as sick as Rand when channeling saidin after they crossed their streams. Taim doesn't.

 

Taim is Taim, possibly with the same "I have a guy from the Age of Legends stuck in my head" problem that Rand had before he went to Dragonmount. I'm guessing that Demandred is in the Black Tower running the show from behind the scenes, or he's behind the scenes in Murundy controlling Roedran, or he is Roedran.

 

He's King Roedran. See this thread for more information.

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Moridin uses the power from the Dark One almost exclusively, presumably because he get as sick as Rand when channeling saidin after they crossed their streams. Taim doesn't.

 

Taim is Taim, possibly with the same "I have a guy from the Age of Legends stuck in my head" problem that Rand had before he went to Dragonmount. I'm guessing that Demandred is in the Black Tower running the show from behind the scenes, or he's behind the scenes in Murundy controlling Roedran, or he is Roedran.

 

He's King Roedran. See this thread for more information.

 

If Demandred actually is King Roedran, I hope he gets laughed out of the Chosen.

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Moridin uses the power from the Dark One almost exclusively, presumably because he get as sick as Rand when channeling saidin after they crossed their streams. Taim doesn't.

 

Taim is Taim, possibly with the same "I have a guy from the Age of Legends stuck in my head" problem that Rand had before he went to Dragonmount. I'm guessing that Demandred is in the Black Tower running the show from behind the scenes, or he's behind the scenes in Murundy controlling Roedran, or he is Roedran.

 

He's King Roedran. See this thread for more information.

 

If Demandred actually is King Roedran, I hope he gets laughed out of the Chosen.

 

 

precisely.

 

from being a number 2 man in the last age, the nearly man, the mr almost the dragon man to some schmuck hiding behind the scenes like a scared old man in the current age. what a fall from grace.

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There's little question that whoever Taim is he has AoL knowlage and memory and while I dissmiss any Demandred theory the Moridin one could be posible but Rand met with Moridin in his dreams and only then did he recognise the new body with Ishamael but no remarks on that it was Taims body. Moridin could have mirrored himself when being Taim but now we're starting to stretch it a bit too far and I think Moridin have other things to do than train asha'man.

 

The thing that gets me about these comments is that Moridin using a disguise, be it True Power or otherwise, is absolutely not a stretch. Meeting Moridin in his dreams does little to disprove anything; it was a dream, so Moridins disguise wouldnt be switched on. And we know Demandred has dealings with the Darkfriend Ashaman, so whats to say it isnt him thats training them? Moridin did the recruiting to set the ball rolling, then began 13x13ing them. Running the Black Tower and the fortress in the Blight is a single task, Ive said that many times. We have no idea what goes on in Taims special classes other than that it almost certainly has something to do with the 13x13ing. I find it hard to believe that Taim has access to Fades.

 

Moridin doesnt have to train them. He lets Demandred do that, to a point. But Moridin without a doubt has Darkfriend Ashaman at his personal disposal, we know that both from Kismans PoV and from Graendal being summoned to him by one.

 

It explains every single oddity about Taim, from his confidence-and sometimes curiosity-around Rand, to his flash of rage at the Sword and Dragon, to the almost-obvious AoL knowledge, to the access to Fades needed to 13x13. The Black Tower is hardly beneath the Nae'blis considering the methods "Taim" is using.

 

While you have convinced me of this in a previous thread, at least the practical side of me. The side of me that started this thread has a few qualms.

 

Qualm the first. RJ's thing about 'Taeem'. Seems odd that he's got an AoL-style, actual name. Unless you suggest Taim NEVER existed and has always been Ishy in disguise. But I don't think he was "real" enough back in tEotW or early tGH when Taim started his campaign. Obviously it could just be a guy's name, but it seems extremely suspicious to me, and from reading the quotes, RJ seemed particularly concerned that people pronounced his name right, as if it were some clue.

 

Second, if it's Moridin, and he planned what he's got so far, it makes no sense to me the whole negotiating for power sharing thing at the start and the fury Taim seems to have about being "second". That seems to point to him being a real false dragon. He wants to be the dragon, he wants to be the one in the spotlight, and may still consider himself the dragon as his "phaw, prophecies smophicies" attitude described earlier suggests. If it was Moridin, you'd think he'd be happy with his position to set things up as you suggest he's doing. He should act more like Logain is: Arrogant, but accepting his role, as long as he has the freedom to skulk about and 13x13 people.

 

That's about it really, beyond my wish to side with the usual criticisms that do have some answers but lend credence to my own dislike of the 'simple' solution: double orders and 'not enough time'.

 

Here's my crazy theory from my theoryland post. It's actually a comment on a theory that Mazrim Taim rode in a stasis box from the AoL, which I do not believe, but this is my twist on it:

 

I think I'd actually combine this theory with the old personality take over theory that a 2nd ager took over Mazrim Taim.

 

In my version, I'd say Mazrim Ta-eem, a 2nd ager, took over some 3rd age farmer... an ancestor of Taim's who had the DO prison seal that was passed down along their family line. Given Taim's quote on Aiel, he was likely an Aes Sedai, so this farmer may have strong OP genes that caused him to spark, get tainted, and taken over by Taim's larger than life personality (evidence below).

 

In the personality theory, there was a long and heated discussion over the "Realness" of the voices caused by the taint. This is irrelevant. I'm not suggesting the farmer is being puppeteered by some AoLer. It is just that the taint let enough of Taim's AoL memories and personality into the farmers' head that the farmer's meek personality got pushed aside.

 

"RJ: They have one soul with two personalities[...]" Referring to Rand and LTT.

 

If Taim's personality was sufficiently big, and this farmer's quite meek, they may both still be there, but the Taim's keeps the farmer subdued. Therefore, Mazrim Taim is a shadow of someone from the AoL, long dead, existing in a new body. Which very nicely explains why none of the Chosen would recognize 'one of their own', but why old LTT memories could recognize old Taim memories.

 

I can add a little more to this with some suggestive evidence of the personality change moment in this RJ Q&A quote:

 

"WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

RJ: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly - traveling quietly is not in his character."

 

RJ clearly states Taim can't help but be a "larger than life" character. He needs to be the center of attention all the time. Obviously, we get more evidence of that when he's trying to negotiate his position with Rand. This just confirms that Taim could likely snuff out any regular competing personalities he might share a mind with.

 

However RJ's answer raises a question. Before he declared himself as the Dragon Reborn, who was he? As far as I can remember no one has a back story on the man who supposedly conducts himself in this "larger than life" manner even when he's trying to be discrete. Very odd. You don't become so big headed after claiming to be the Dragon Reborn, you're probably already like that. However, this could be explained if he was just some saldean farmer with a different personality before he declared himself.

 

Also, RJ said that Taim was in his late 20s. The stasis argument somewhat falls apart around this (though you could make the case that stasis time doesn't count I guess). However in the personality argument, this would refer to the age of Mazrim's host body.

 

Then there's the question, why does he appear to be immune to the taint? Answer: He's not, he's just already 100% crazy. The voices are all that's left of him.

 

So in summary, this would be how my proposed scenario pans out in the storyline:

 

Some male sparker saldean farmer is hiding out, knowing what he is, what he can do, and what the Reds would do to him. He starts going mad, alone in his farmhouse, maybe he kills his family (for added drama, clearly no evidence for that). Eventually, the memories of his AoL ancestor Mazrim "Ta-eem" start breaking through. With his new memories he learns that the family heirloom is really a seal on the DO's prison. This revelation that his family has held a seal for generations, plus the added arrogance of Taim that has seeped into his brain, starts causing delusions of grandeur and kick starts his campaign as a false dragon. When he announces himself, he uses the name Mazrim Taim. And eventually, the memories win out and he shaves his beard and stops talking about himself in the third person... captured, breaks free... gives the seal to Rand... you know the rest.

 

Now, as I said my practical side is with Taimadin, but I think this would make him the coolest character. And the quote here from RJ about Taim's need to be the centre of attention makes very little sense IMO if he truly is Moridin. But thne again, it also makes little sense for a character who's been absent for 99% of the series.

 

 

To bloody right this would make him the coolest character in the series

 

I still thnk it's more likely that he's Moridin in disguise/being controlled by Moridin.

Edited by Darren heron-Mark Clayden

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So, I've only read up through KOD and don't know how much about Taim has yet to be revealed, but it has seemed for years to me that Demandred is and always was Mazrim Taim--the character is mentioned for the first time after we know the Forsaken have been freed, and Taim appears in the narrative only just after we first meet Demandred in person (at the beginning of LOC if I remember correctly). Frankly, though, I'm probably wrong. I do and always did think that Jordan kept too many identities and other facts a secret for too long and for too little purpose. I mean, so what if Moridin is the reincarnation of Ishamael? When that fact was revealed, I remember thinking, Well, yes, of course he is, why did you keep that fact hidden from us for so long--it's not as if it was a mystery to the other Forsaken. (I also confess that I dislike Moridin as a character and concept--from a narrative point of view, introducing him when he did was not a good move on Jordan's part.) Keeping Aginor's reincarnated identity a secret made sense (even if Aginor/Jordan had a hard time keeping the Ashaman character (don't recall his name) from being obviously villainous). As I recall, Jordan didn't even bother trying to keep Lanfear's reincarnated self's original identity a secret. So what's the deal? It's all part of the love/hate relationship I have with WOT and Jordan: that level of complexity is amazing, but the willful obscurity is merely annoying, and over the course of thousands of pages becomes downright infuriating.

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I have felt for years that Demandred is not taim and taim is not demandred.

But, they are the same person. Taim is literally demandred gone mad or simply turned into taim.

i mean looking at fain anything is possible.

RJ just pulled the wool over our eyes and said no ur not blinded its dark out.

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Here's my crazy theory from my theoryland post. It's actually a comment on a theory that Mazrim Taim rode in a stasis box from the AoL, which I do not believe, but this is my twist on it:

 

I think I'd actually combine this theory with the old personality take over theory that a 2nd ager took over Mazrim Taim.

 

In my version, I'd say Mazrim Ta-eem, a 2nd ager, took over some 3rd age farmer... an ancestor of Taim's who had the DO prison seal that was passed down along their family line. Given Taim's quote on Aiel, he was likely an Aes Sedai, so this farmer may have strong OP genes that caused him to spark, get tainted, and taken over by Taim's larger than life personality (evidence below).

 

In the personality theory, there was a long and heated discussion over the "Realness" of the voices caused by the taint. This is irrelevant. I'm not suggesting the farmer is being puppeteered by some AoLer. It is just that the taint let enough of Taim's AoL memories and personality into the farmers' head that the farmer's meek personality got pushed aside.

 

"RJ: They have one soul with two personalities[...]" Referring to Rand and LTT.

 

If Taim's personality was sufficiently big, and this farmer's quite meek, they may both still be there, but the Taim's keeps the farmer subdued. Therefore, Mazrim Taim is a shadow of someone from the AoL, long dead, existing in a new body. Which very nicely explains why none of the Chosen would recognize 'one of their own', but why old LTT memories could recognize old Taim memories.

 

I can add a little more to this with some suggestive evidence of the personality change moment in this RJ Q&A quote:

 

"WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

RJ: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly - traveling quietly is not in his character."

 

RJ clearly states Taim can't help but be a "larger than life" character. He needs to be the center of attention all the time. Obviously, we get more evidence of that when he's trying to negotiate his position with Rand. This just confirms that Taim could likely snuff out any regular competing personalities he might share a mind with.

 

However RJ's answer raises a question. Before he declared himself as the Dragon Reborn, who was he? As far as I can remember no one has a back story on the man who supposedly conducts himself in this "larger than life" manner even when he's trying to be discrete. Very odd. You don't become so big headed after claiming to be the Dragon Reborn, you're probably already like that. However, this could be explained if he was just some saldean farmer with a different personality before he declared himself.

 

Also, RJ said that Taim was in his late 20s. The stasis argument somewhat falls apart around this (though you could make the case that stasis time doesn't count I guess). However in the personality argument, this would refer to the age of Mazrim's host body.

 

Then there's the question, why does he appear to be immune to the taint? Answer: He's not, he's just already 100% crazy. The voices are all that's left of him.

 

So in summary, this would be how my proposed scenario pans out in the storyline:

 

Some male sparker saldean farmer is hiding out, knowing what he is, what he can do, and what the Reds would do to him. He starts going mad, alone in his farmhouse, maybe he kills his family (for added drama, clearly no evidence for that). Eventually, the memories of his AoL ancestor Mazrim "Ta-eem" start breaking through. With his new memories he learns that the family heirloom is really a seal on the DO's prison. This revelation that his family has held a seal for generations, plus the added arrogance of Taim that has seeped into his brain, starts causing delusions of grandeur and kick starts his campaign as a false dragon. When he announces himself, he uses the name Mazrim Taim. And eventually, the memories win out and he shaves his beard and stops talking about himself in the third person... captured, breaks free... gives the seal to Rand... you know the rest.

 

Now, as I said my practical side is with Taimadin, but I think this would make him the coolest character. And the quote here from RJ about Taim's need to be the centre of attention makes very little sense IMO if he truly is Moridin. But thne again, it also makes little sense for a character who's been absent for 99% of the series.

 

But what if this second-ager was not Mazrim Taim, but Demandred? Then Demandred is not Taim. And Demandred is not seen on screen, because we have "Demandred", the Forsaken sealed in the bore, and "Mazrim Taim", a Salean farmer who is controlled by the voice of Demandred. Then Demandred could literally be at two places at the same time, because the voice in Taim's head is not controlled by the freed Demandred.

 

I hope everyone understands what I mean, because I can't explain it better. I couldn't even do so in Dutch.

 

Edit: And the name "Mazrim Taim" was maybe chosen by the Demandred-voice.

Edited by Leyrann

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Never being one to miss the chance to rant and rave incoherently, I just can't pass this one up, maybe make some barely substantiated conjectures and use this loose soil to build a castle on. OK so we had many a false dragon running around before the prophecy and the pattern forced Rand to declare, and that all of them had their power bases evaporate right around that time, I think one of the Aei Sedai said something to the effect that the Pattern would no longer need false dragons for any reason and so they caught the eddies of the planetary Taveren Vortex that is Rand, fell off their horses, and had reality kick them to the curb. Logain was caught before this, but as we all know he is special because Min says so, and Nynaeve got to prove that she outclasses everyone once again by healing him.

 

Taim's purpose as a false dragon, insofar as I see it, is that he was the vector that brought Bashere to Rand, where he then got pulled into Rand's reality altering frenzy right when he needed a general with no conflicts of interests in the nations he was holding. It was mentioned that so many false dragons at once was a rare thing, especially considering the number of them who could channel, since those are the ones with potential, and usually lead to the biggest crazy wars to bring down. Instead they were all taken out quickly when Rand took the Stone, and ended up re purposed. Who and what Taim is has so many bits that need to fall in place for any theory to really hold up. For instance, Taim could have started out just a false dragon, and then became corrupted by power and dislike of Rand, and then been co opted by the darkfriend insurgency in the Black Tower (which would happen organically, sooner or later someone would not want to go mad and rot and die and would end up bending knee to the DO for the Magic Black Strands of Madness Protection, the Black Ajah was seeded and grown in the White Tower, but sadin wielder's have a built in reason to consider the dark side) He also could have been a dark friend from the get go.

 

Rand asked him how he held off the madness so long and he just gladhanded the answer. Being stronger does make one succumb to the taint faster, as does channeling more often, and Taim is pretty strong, had been channeling longer than Rand and uses the Power quite a lot. I don't quite buy that he is mad, or fully mad at least, perhaps he got DO protection after a bit of the strange creeped into his brain. Possibly hearing voices from himself in another Age, but not to the degree Rand was before his Mountaintop Hegelian Synthesis. Sure Rand heard voices, but they also took over his body and made him do crazy things like kill his own soldiers and ranted at him to murder everyone constantly. They also taught him magic that no one else knew, and paranoid delusions don't know things the deluded one does not, especially millenia old war weaves that devastate whole battlefields by shooting little red lines out of your fingertips. If Taim had access to an AoL personality via the taint breaking down the personality barrier a bit, he still seems almost entirely in control of himself, ruthless and ubermanish but not prone to irrational poorly thought out actions, if anything he just gets really reallllly pissed sometimes which is not out of character for a power hungry ego maniacal evil wizard.

 

Taim also mentioned that he had attempted to teach students in the past when he found other men with the spark (already pushing the statistical envelope there, finding a few on his own) and that they mostly went mad pretty fast and he gave them the Socrates wine. Teaching sadin and knowing that resonance trick to detect other male channelers did not spring from a void. Even with the early LTT voice/presence in Rand's head, before Asmodean tutored him he was pretty much a chimpanzee with a nuclear missile. From this I do not discount the idea that the DO has his own School of Sadin somewhere in the Blight; which takes up most of the better parts of the continent as it was in the AoL. Add in the non stop trickle of Aiel males who manifest the spark running to the Blight for centuries, and I just can't imagine evil wasting such potent resources. Sure, maybe for the first decade these Aiel run up and get killed off as they do, but after several generations, why not just have a 13x13 squad or three out in that general direction to just corrupt and send off to Shaitan's Hawgwarts of Dreadlordery. With early taint protection (teehee), competent trainers, and no oath rod, I bet there could be a great many 400 year old corrupted former aiel sadin dreadlords ready to throw down some Earth and Fire, and maybe teach widdle Taim a few levels in badass before sending him off southward to wreak some havoc. He had to be taught by someone, and someone male. Unless he found some half mad male wilder who had avoided the Reds and kept a low profile while teaching himself without dying, and then picking up some pretty nuanced control and knowledge of the male half of the Power, the answer that fits would have to be some sort of organized training that predated the Black Tower, and was operating independently of the Forsaken in the blight until they were freed from the prison as the wards weakened. Ishy could have gotten the foundations together on one of his cyclical escape times, just like he set up the Seanchan to be where he wanted them a thousand years before he did. Incidentally, such a place could have preserved a great deal of the knowledge of the AoL beyond just training in the Power; like history from then without having to go through the Rhudiean Way Back Possession Televison Rings and having Aiel blood to get a channel.

 

For that matter, Ishy is the only one of the Forsaken that has worked out that the DO wants to end existence, not make them the immortal rulers of it, but he is fine with that, I guess after an eternity of philosophy to think about while trapped in torpor, and knowledge that you have been fighting the same fight over and over since the beginning of time, nihilistic totality does not seem like a bad deal, and this is where I see the Moridin/Taim theory take some damage, Taim wants power and respect and prestige and to eff around with Rand and generally tell people what to do. Moridin wants to be the harbinger of the great long silence and I don't see that in Taim's character. I don't think Taim would get in line with that if he knew the real punchline to the joke if he is Moridin's puppet, and their leadership styles are too different to be the same person. Taim wants his army of fanatically devoted channelers, or outright zombie channelers surrounding him in his place of power. Moridin only took total control of any of his assets once some great big monkeywrenches where thrown into the grand scheme, and most of them were the result of infighting in his ranks; then out came the mind traps and the frequent meetings and constant displays of True Power craziness. (Personally, I don't think one can hide the Saa, or Moridin would do it all the time, since the volume of them would let the other Forsaken who want his spot know how far along the True Power total insanity spectrum he is, unless of course he sees that madness as a source of control over them if they believe him too crazy to accurately try to plan against)

 

As for Taim, I think Dreadlord 3 star General is where I stand. He's clearly a darkfriend, though if he was the whole series I cannot say yes or no. He clearly has some major pull among the forces of evil, I don't think Chosen level, but close, he is at least high enough up the heirarchy to tug on their ears when he has to, and if the DO values those who bring armies to his banner, an army of controlled, weapon trained sadin weilders right in the heart of Andor is a serious strategic linchpin; while everyone things the front line is up north, their center of power gets immolated from inside. But then again, he also tried to have Rand killed in Cairhein in violation of the DO NOT KILL order that the DO had on Rand, since corrupting him was worth more to him than killing him, and that is a great way to get Shadiar Haraned in uncomfortable places, if the other Forksaken who really want to be the one to kill Rand don't take it up with him first. This leads that he is running his own side games to some extent and might not be fully with the Program that Moridin is running, especially if he sees a chance to do something he really wants. The red and black heraldry at the least points to the idea that Moridin might be his patron Chosen, since he dressed up Moghedian and Lanfear in such regalia, I'm sure the idea of turning Rands Tower against him in the middle of the lands he holds most securely is the type of thing that would get a chuckle out of Moridin before he goes off to think something to death.

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While I like it, it seems far too plausible for this thread, so B-. A captivating read.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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Taim is Taim, but like LTT in Rand's head, there is another in Taim's. Maybe its a previous false dragon or someone else extremely powerful or whatever. That is why he seems insane, that is why he tells others "so called Aeil", that is why he says "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". He can't be Demondred or Moridin. SPOILER: read the prologue to find out more about him!

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Taim is a character I hope we learn a lot about in AMoL.

 

When he first arrived in Caemlyn he wanted to be Rand's 2nd, or a lesser partner, not to teach saidin classes.

 

He is shocked when Rand almost destroys the DO's seal in front of him. And yet he shows concern when Rand almost loses it at the BT where Taim tells Rand "you must hold on" etc. I don't have my book with me right now to get the exact quotes. But why show concern for Rand after being so angry with receiving the Dragon and Sword pins?

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Taim is perhaps my favorite character in the whole series, he just pop of the pages and gap your attention in any scene he is in. I am not so sure as many seam to be that he is a dakfriend, he might be but if so I do not think he is a Forsaken in disguise. I think that Taim works for himself, that he have his own plans and agendas, now he is clearly up to no good, and he is clearly a villain, but I think it would be neat to just have a villain who is not evil because he is with the Shadow but just because he is very ambitious and completely unscrupulous.

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My crazy Taim theory - he is one of the Hundred Companions who was sucked into the Bore when it was sealed. He escaped with the rest of the Forsaken and decided that he had already been on the losing team once so decided to turn to the Shadow. Possibly helped by some whispering in his ear by the DO while he was sealed.

 

This explains how he got the seal that he gifted to Rand - he was sealed inside the seal with a seal!

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Taim being from the Age of Legends is not a bad theory actually. If I do not remember it wrong Jordan have said that Taim have slowed which means he have been channeling for some time but he have not said exactly how old the man is.

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