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Is Taim Actually Demandred???

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Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.

Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

 

It's already been provided, but once again, I prefer not to call the man a liar.

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005Isabel
Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?
Robert Jordan
I was surprised but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.
Edited by Suttree

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Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

It's already been provided, but once again, I prefer not to call the man a liar.

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)Isabel

Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?Robert Jordan

I was surprised but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

And once again Suttree he didnt deny to having no idea people would think Taim and Demandred were the same guy. And given his form for messing with the fans, comments about Isamael and dark dragons spring to mind, there is reason to believe that he overstated his suprise or was suprised with the passion with which Taimandred cought on.

note i did not call the man a liar.

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Just wondering; if we're not going to take the quoted statement at face value, how exactly are we ever going to reach a definitive conclusion one way or another when he's been dead for years? It doesn't really seem to me like there is a resolution to the argument if we choose to doubt his word (or read it as exaggeration/messing with the fans).

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This has already been said. It is just my opinion that he did know people would think Taim and Demandred were the same guy at the end of writting LoC. Some have stated that it is obvious Taim is not Demandred at the end of LoC and whats more there were definitive clues in the book to rubbish it.

Edited by damandred

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Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

It's already been provided, but once again, I prefer not to call the man a liar.

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)Isabel

Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?Robert Jordan

I was surprised but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

And once again Suttree he didnt deny to having no idea people would think Taim and Demandred were the same guy. And given his form for messing with the fans, comments about Isamael and dark dragons spring to mind, there is reason to believe that he overstated his suprise or was suprised with the passion with which Taimandred cought on.

note i did not call the man a liar.

 

 

Nah at this point your hedging with the "no idea" and "entirely" parts of your statement. He was asked explicitly if he was surprised and the answer was yes. End of.

 

Edit:

 

Also what do you mean him messing with us about "dark dragons"? The dragon soul has turned to the DO. We know that for fact.

Edited by Suttree

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Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

It's already been provided, but once again, I prefer not to call the man a liar.

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)Isabel

Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?Robert Jordan

I was surprised but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

And once again Suttree he didnt deny to having no idea people would think Taim and Demandred were the same guy. And given his form for messing with the fans, comments about Isamael and dark dragons spring to mind, there is reason to believe that he overstated his suprise or was suprised with the passion with which Taimandred cought on.

note i did not call the man a liar.

Nah at this point your hedging with the "no idea" and "entirely" parts of your statement. He was asked explicitly if he was surprised and the answer was yes. End of.

 

Edit:

 

Also what do you mean him messing with us about "dark dragons"? The dragon soul has turned to the DO. We know that for fact.

 

Why am i hedging. All im sugesting is he might not have been as suprised as he made out. The part about the theories is in brackets with a question mark, who knows in what context he was answering the question. The way the question was phrased gave him a way out of saying if he knew or not whether people would think Taim was Demandred.

 

Im thinking of there quote were he was asked if the dragon had been turned before and said something ambiguous like do you believe Isamael. It may not have been about the dragon but he definitley made that ambiguous remark. As it said in the quote you supplied he liked to see us squirm.

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But you keep pressing Mr Ares on the point when we have an answer from RJ. He has stated a number of times that they were never meant to be the same and he was surprised by the fan reaction. Continuing to quibble over what level of surprise RJ may have had seems rather silly.

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All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

This right here. RJ had to have known what he was doing, either directly or indirectly. He can't have been surprised.
This is the question I originaly asked Mr Ares, he has not answered a simple yes or no. I have and so has others. I am simply asking his opinion on it.

I press him on it because he states that as of the end of LoC, there is more evidence that Taim is not Demandred than is and that RJ put enough clues in to make it obvious he wasnt. I dispute this. Now in hindsight we now know the clues pointed at Taim being Demandreds minion, but at the end of LoC i state Taimandred was a logical conclusion, he disputes that.

Edited by damandred

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Why not a yes or no answer? Saying somethings entirely possible or he thought he'd..... is not answering the question.

Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.

Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

I can phrase it however you want but the question remains the same. That is the question i want you to answer, why would i ask another?

I believe no he wasnt suprised, and yes knew people would think Taim was Demandred. That has ever been the main thrust of my posts. That you keep failing to give a definitive answer gives a whiff of sophistry.

I have given an answer. Yes or no is not a satisfactory answer for all questions. Surprise is quite reasonable. It is entirely possible that he was surprised, and that he didn't intend to make Taimandred a theory - and that's what his statements on the issue support. Was he actually surprised? Did he genuinely not think people would see Taimandred? I don't know. I can go by the implication of his recorded statements, which is that he was surprised, but that's it. He says he was surprised, and it's reasonable to believe that he could be. He could be lying, or joking, or using an AS answer. Given that I have quite comprehensively answered the question, what more could a yes or no tell you? Nothing.

You say you didnt ( sportingly) point out my mistake on the smile thing at first, then you say i made the wrong point, when it was obviously just a mistake on wording, then i point this out, and you bring it up again. This reads to me that you are trying to score points that are not there..

It reads to me that you need to work on correcting your mistakes of wording, so that people know what you're trying to say. You're the one who won't let points die and keeps bringing them up, to the point of falsely claiming my position to be something other than it actually is.

You say the mirror of mists reason for the beard is silly which is absurd. Demandred could of measured the risk of not adding the beard to people casting doubt on his identity and concluded that a imperfect illusion was a greater risk than people casting brief doubts because he shaved.

Or he could have genuinely grown a beard. Was Bashere surprised at the absence of beard purely because a beard is expected of a Saldaean? Well, as not everyone can grow a decent beard, that seems a little suspect. So it's quite reasonable to assume that he had reason to believe Taim had a beard - so why does he no longer have the beard he had before? If imperfect Illusions are the problem, they would surely have been before, but he still had one. Also, he only needs to keep the beard for a brief period, until he can plausibly claim to have shaved.

The proxy comment could have been taken as a attempt to turn people off Taimandred which would be understandable, given all the hints for.

Except the hints for Taimandred aren't as numerous as you claim. So now the evidence against is to be taken as evidence for? Saying that something could be a red herring isn't reason enough to believe that it is.

Now you continue to insist that theses two point are some major clues of RJ discouraging Taimandred, i dont see it that way. You also claim there is only one for, but that is simply not true. Please explain the one that can go "either way". It is not just the smile thing, but others , you have pointed out Taim was the original user on the so called comment, but it was still a odd comment to make and one you would exspect from a forsaken and not a proxy, same with the rage thing on pinning the pins on, there is also other referances that draw similararties, such as the way they domminated rooms, put together with how the book finishes and ends, how is that one point?

How the book begins and ends leads us to suspect Demandred's involvement - but, as I've alredy pointed out repeatedly, that doesn't mean that we must look for who Demandred is impersonating. Is Demandred acting himself, or through others? We certainly know he's acting through others to an extent - he gives orders to the others - and we're told that working through others is a favoured tactic. So the bookends work as well for minion Taim as Taimandred. So-called Aiel? Not something the Chosen have said before, they've said nothing like it, thus not something you'd expect a Chosen to say, and the context implies he's saying it to undermine Rand's confidence in the Aiel, or at the very least to convey his own distrust for them. Thus, either way. A dominating stance? Like a big nose, this is not exactly uncommon enough to be taken as a clue pointing purely towards Demandred. People not liking working under Rand is nothing new, and considering how he's largely been given a free hand it's no surprise that someone as arrogant as him would chafe when Rand shows up and makes Taim look like the number two guy he is. Putting pins on Taim is a reminder that Taim owes his position to Rand, and it does so in front of everyone. Thus it's a clue that works as well for either interpretation. And so on - that's the point I'm making. Using the evidence available at the time, we have a bunch of points that could be spun to either theory, one (a shared mannerism) that points to Taimandred alone, and two (beard and proxies) that work for minion Taim. At the time, people focused on Taimandred, and apparently overlooked the evidence against. I've seen enough times that people - even intelligent people - get caught up in pet theories, and see things in a certain light. Other arguments, sometimes better ones, ones that prove true, are overlooked, beaten down, marginalised. Taimandred was a popular theory, it's really not at all unlikely that confirmation bias entrenched it as the dominant theory over and above others that, on paper, actually have more going for them.

So your two BIG points, one imo is more for Taimandred, and the other could of ( reasonibly) been seen as misdirection. While a whole book of telling similarites and a more than sugestive beginning and ending to the book is clumped together as one point.

Except, you've not explained how the beard is evidence for Taimandred - you've shown, at best, that it could be explained away if Taimandred were true. The same with the proxies point. Just because either can be worked around, doesn't mean that they should be, and you've given no reason why they should be.

Concratulations your capacity to twist evidence to favor your own arguments is truely awe inspiring.

It's a gift.

 

Just wondering; if we're not going to take the quoted statement at face value, how exactly are we ever going to reach a definitive conclusion one way or another when he's been dead for years?

Necromancy. Definitely necromancy.

 

 

 

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

This right here. RJ had to have known what he was doing, either directly or indirectly. He can't have been surprised.

 

This is the question I originaly asked Mr Ares, he has not answered a simple yes or no. I have and so has others. I am simply asking his opinion on it.

I press him on it because he states that as of the end of LoC, there is more evidence that Taim is not Demandred than is and that RJ put enough clues in to make it obvious he wasnt. I dispute this. Now in hindsight we now know the clues pointed at Taim being Demandreds minion, but at the end of LoC i state Taimandred was a logical conclusion, he disputes that.

 

No, I don't. I have admitted that there was evidence for Taimandred. I dispute that it was the best interpretation of the available evidence. So far, no reason has been given to support the idea that it was the best interpretation at the time. Granted, it was the theory that gained the most traction at the time, but that's not an indicator it's the best. Given that I have said all this before, i would kindly ask you to stop lying about my argument.

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Except I'm talking about an argument you didn't respond to, and pretended (more than once) hadn't been made. Sort of like what you're doing right now.

Sigh. Ok. One more time. Taim-as-Taim shaved. The only reason he gave was "it was hot". We know heat doesn't touch him the same way as normal people (though of course, we know that only means you don't notice it. It will still affect you, as you can freeze to death in the cold you ignore.) So Taim's shaving could have been because he wanted to hide, if in fact he didn't care about the heat. Something, we can't completely discount. Shaving is NOT THAT great of a disguise. Not saying it doesn't help, but when Rand (or Elayne and Nynaeve) wanted to hide, they colored their hair and changed their clothes and so forth. And despite RJ's 2005 comments, the 1994 LOC text itself doesn't even present Taim as particularly bedraggled or rode-hard.

 

 

 Tumad emerged into the sunlight first, then a black-haired man of slightly above average height whose dark faceand tilted eyes, hooked nose and high cheekbones, marked him another Saldaean, though he was clean-shaven and garbed like a once prosperous Andoran merchant lately fallen on hard times. His dark blue coat had been of fine wool trimmed in darker velvet, but wear had made the cuffs ragged, his breeches bagged at the knee, and dust coated his cracked boots. 

 

 

He doesn't give the impression that he had been on a non-stop run with barely a pause to rest. Especially when he, as he said, had time to stop by a farm-house and be given a seal of the DO's prison. The impression he gives is the same as Breane Taborwin or any number of others who had fallen on hard times and had to do work in their nicer clothing. He doesn't particularly appear pursued or run down. Thus, the impression that he might have shaved as part of a desperate attempt to stay one step ahead of his Saldean pursuers is quite watered down, though it still might be the case.

 

At that point, to me, his shaving seems rather unimportant. He did it and we cannot know the full reasons, esp from the 1994 text. We can try to guess, but that has its own problems, as I just pointed out. He doesn't seem like he is particularly trying to be in disguise. So if it's not that, then why did Taim shave? Why didn't he worry about being recognized? Because when he presented himself to Rand, he knew it wouldn't be a problem to prove it. He shaved, for whatever reasons (and at this point, I seriously don't really care anymore about the reasons. With RJ's- and BS's- willingness to leave so many plot points unanswered, this particular sentence in a million word series and its imputed meaning just makes me tired.) He did it for reasons we can't be sure of.

 

IN MY OPINION, THE REASONS FOR TAIM'S SHAVING CAN APPLY EQUALLY TO TAIMANDRED. They did it (or appeared to do it.) It happened. The why just doesn't seem that important to me. It can be argued for and against Taimandred. It can be spun this way and that. I don't care anymore. It's not enough to hang a theory on, especially for arm-chair quarterbacks with the benefit of hindsight.

 

 

Context matters - neither Elza nor Paitr have anything to do with Taimandred. Minion Taim and DF Taim have, of necessity, a significant amount of overlap. After all, minion is a subset of DF in this context.

 

 

And what is the context of Taim that specifically links him to Demandred, as opposed to say, being a minion of Sammael or Graendal or any of the other Chosen? Since you have successfully explained away all the "clues" we used to argue Taimandred and showed they DID NOT LINK TAIM TO DEMANDRED, then we have none. Well, I take that back. We have one. Demandred's unseen role in LOC. But you argued that that could apply to other elements of LOC. There is nothing specific tying Demandred to Taim. You already (and I have say correctly) took care of the evidence we saw as Taimandred, such as so-called Aiel. Thus, there doesn't appear to be any context linking Taim specifically Demandred. Taim could have just as easily been a pawn of Sammael or the later-revealed Moridin or one of the other forsaken. His being linked to Demandred specifically doesn't exist.

 

Yet you claim, in terms of logic

Taim=DF => Taim=Minion-Taim

If Taim is a Dark-friend, then Taim is a Minion of Demandred.

So how does one prove this kind of statement false? Find a counter example of someone who is a darkfriend that wasn't a minion or proxy of Taim. Again, Elza or Paitr. Elza in particular.

 

See you are are changing definitions of Minion-Taim, moving the goal posts. You are claiming Minion-Taim was the best and clearest theory and the only evidence you use is the vague charge that he might be a DF (a charge that was never more than briefly mentioned- not discussed or proved). They are not one in the same. I quote you on pages 4 and 5 of this thread:

 

 

But for Taim to be just another pawn in Demandred's game, that fits just as well, if not better. Yes, Taim is suspicious, but there is a world of difference between "suspicious" and "Demandred". When the Taimandred evidence can all be spun multiple ways, when the argument for minion Taim is as strong as Taimandred, and there are notable problems with Taimandred that minion Taim doesn't have, why assume Taimandred?
 

 

 it's another clue, right up front, that Taim is a minion, not Demandred. Even LTT's rantings prominently feature Sammael - yes, Demandred is featured more heavily, but he rants about the both of them. 
 
You (and everyone) define Minion-Taim as Taim being a pawn of Demandred, a proxy of him, acting on his orders.
 
So show me Minion-Taim in any discussion prior to 2004. Prove it. I have given you proof after proof about what was argued back then. You claim you first read in the FAQ the Taimandred theory and the debunking of it. Really? Which FAQ? Because I showed you all the faqs and when Taimandred was first debunked (2004 version)- and that section runs all of 1 page featuring RJ's January 2003 comment saying it wasn't true. Prior to that, there was NO VERSION of the faq "debunking" Taimandred. There were versions giving the pros and cons of Taimandred, but no "debunking" went on until the word-of-God statement killed it forever.
 
So again, I challenge you. Prove it. Show me something prior to 2004 indicating that Minion-Taim was a theory. Minion-Taim, as you defined it- Taim being a proxy of Demandred, carrying out his orders, making use of Sammael's proxy statement. Show me something.
 
If you can't do that, then you cannot speak as to what was obvious because you have no proof. Just your convenient hindsight of the evidence. If it was so clear and obvious you should be able to dig up something somewhere. Nothing dies on the internet.
 
You so casually refer to the faq as a ranking of theory popularity and thus the lack of Minion-Taim means nothing since it was still obvious in your eyes- as if it did not try to include every single possible theory no matter how looney. So here I present to you some of the esoteric things in the faq that were included in order to be as thorough as possible.
1.2.6 Moridin's Nine Sha'rah players
1.3.2 Fifty Ways to Kill a Gholam updated
1.4.3 Can Slayer channel?
1.5.2 Why Moiraine is not Black Ajah
1.6.3 What was up with Liah in Shadar Logoth?
2.1.4 When was Rand's Power-Acquisition Fever Syndrome?
2.2.1 Can Thom channel?
2.3.06 Can you make horizontal gateways?
2.4.01 Who was Beidomon?
2.4.09 Was the Sharom the Dark One's prison?
2.5.2 Who is Juilin's honey?
2.5.6 Kari al'Thor: What do we know about her?
2.6.4 Where do the Aes Sedai get their money?
2.7.1 How does one sniff, anyway? What about snorting?
2.7.7 When Rand and Mat are travelling to Caemlyn in TEOTW, why does the scene with the scarves happen twice?
 
So what I want to know is how we had time and space to discuss Juilin's crushing on Amathera or whether Moiraine was BA or how a person sniffs...how all of that got into the faq and yet somehow, a Minion-Taim discussion either went unnoticed or got yelled down so thoroughly that not a single reference to it appears before 2004?
 
So again, I challenge you to prove it. Show me Minion-Taim prior to 2004. Not a vague DF Taim, since they are not the same (though I'd be interested in seeing even that.) Show me Minion-Taim.
 
If you can't I think that proves the point. Arm-chair quarterbacking aside, Minion-Taim was not nearly so obvious as you seem to think. Clearly, otherwise, someone, somewhere, would have seen it and mentioned it. If it was so clear, you should have no trouble finding something prior to 2004.
 

 

Precisely my point - fandom was blinded. The evidence was accepted is being correctly interpreted in a certain light, and it is only once the established orthodoxy was overthrown that things could be looked at in the correct light.

 

...

Except Taimandred doesn't explain all the evidence. Saying that hindsight is 20/20 doesn't change that - it just means that with hindsight we can see now the clues that Taimandred didn't answer. Thus the only thing which is a matter of historical record was that Taimandred was a popular theory - that doesn't mean it was the best. Minion Taim did a better job than Taimandred of explaining the evidence, had fewer reasons to question it, and made more thematic sense. But it didn't gain as much traction as Taimandred.

 

And I don't disagree with this at all. In fact, this is what happened. RJ's statement negated the established orthodoxy and forced us to reinterpret everything- and then we got it right. But that WASN'T your point. You have repeatedly said that the best and most obvious theory back then (LOC/COS/POD) was Minion-Taim. You claim that, somewhere, dissenting voices espousing Minion-Tain were shouted down. "Didn't gain much traction?" As far as I can tell, from both my memory of actually being there as well as documented evidence, it wasn't even mentioned. There was NO Minion-Taim theory to not get traction or to get shouted down.

 

Again, read the faq. The faq doesn't promote Taimandred. It doesn't say it's the best or most favored theory. It presents it as one theory that most fans were arguing for, but it also showed all the counter-arguments people made to it (including your favorite beard discussion). And you should note that the 94 faq's poll indicated only 50% felt Taimandred was true. Only 50%...and yet no mention of Minion-Tain, Minion-Taim does not even appear as a counter-argument in the faq. It's only with RJ's statement that Minion-Taim springs into being like Athena from the mind of Zeus. There all along, but Taimandred made it hard to see.

 

 

 

"Now, we are not the only ones ignorant of the culprit. All of the characters (except one, obviously) are also ignorant of whodunnit (if they're Forsakens), or of what actually happenned (if they're Good Guys or rank-and-file DFs). So, if

one of the surviving Forsaken killed Asm, they must have a reason for hiding it. After all, it's not like anybody would condemn them for punishing a traitor." Turns out I don't need to reread, you do.

 

Except that I don't. This argument is part of a larger one. We actually saw Graendal's pov a couple of times in LOC/COS/POD. And yet we see no internal thoughts regarding her killing Asmodean. So this statement more has to do with the forsaken hiding it, even from themselves. This is really about RJ's hiding things. We have the POV of at least 4 forsaken- Graendal, Sammael, Semirhage, and Demandred (and maybe one other that I can't remember at the moment.) One of them actually was the killer. And yet she avoided thinking about it even to herself.

 

Now when have we seen something like this? One that clearly springs to mind is Verin. We saw a POV in the prologue to POD and she very carefully seems to avoid giving away her allegience (ditto with WH). This is all because this is a huge and critical mystery, culminating in giving Egwene the key to bring down the BA. But we pick up that the same thing is going on with Asmo's killer. Someone somewhere knows something. Either we haven't seen them before or they we have and they aren't talking to anyone, even to themselves. It is not inconceivable that as competitive as they are, they might not have mentioned it. Probably not, but not unheard of. But regardless, what is the conclusion all this secrecy seems to indicate? There's a reason RJ is hiding from us. It was not "intuitively obvious". 

 

He was having fun. I feel that Taimandred was something similar. He had to know. There is no way RJ could've missed that connection. As Damandred points out, the question was worded in such a way that his answer doesn't mean he didn't know. As you said, he may have just wondered why we weren't paying more attention to the other clues he left. And keep in mind, the strongest clues AGAINST Taimandred occur in LOC. If he wanted to clarify things, why did he wait until book 9? Show me something in COS or POD that maid Minion-Taim a better theory? He sets something up that seems so obvious to so many people in LOC and then is surprised by that we fell for it...and then does nothing to dispel that notion until WH (and even then, it took a word-of-god to kill it). Does that sound like surprise? Or having fun?

 

 

 

There are two anti-Taimandred points as of LoC. There is one pro-Taimandred point as of LoC. There are several neutral points (that is, they can be argued for either side) as of LoC. If I have two and you have one, who has more evidence? I do. If your evidence is easily explained by pointing out that the two could easily share a mannerism, but my evidence cannot be explained away quite so simply, whose evidence is stronger? Mine. 

 

This isn't basic math. 2 anti-Taimandred points doesn't mean they are equal. Especially since one of your points (the beard thing) still seems like it can be argued either way, in my opinion. And your (presumably) 2nd point being the proxy is actually meaningless, as we have no context how to interpret it.

 

Does Sammael mean that Demandred used proxies always? So can we expect him to be like Moghedien or Graendal, preferring to manipulate from the background? Does it mean that he uses a proxy to distract while he attacks from the front? Or does it mean that it is one of many tools he uses in his arsenal? We don't know. So that statement could be interpreted this way:

 

Taim is somehow involved with the south, maybe having set something up to sow chaos, while still also being Taim at the BT. He's off on recruiting missions a lot so he has opportunity to do this.

 

See? The proxy statement hasn't proven Taimandred false. Because we have no idea how it should apply....until we actually SEE how it applies. He is with the Sharans, but also set Demandred up as his proxy to work with and subvert Rand.

 

We can't apply 1-1 binary weights to these arguments and then mathematically add them up to see which theory is the best, assuming Minion-Taim had been argued.

 

And of course I have repeatedly argued with evidence that no-one was making Minion-Taim arguments until RJ killed Taimandred. So there was no literary calculus to apply to discern one theory over another.

Edited by Ian Ohlander

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Why not a yes or no answer? Saying somethings entirely possible or he thought he'd..... is not answering the question.

Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.

Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

I can phrase it however you want but the question remains the same. That is the question i want you to answer, why would i ask another?

I believe no he wasnt suprised, and yes knew people would think Taim was Demandred. That has ever been the main thrust of my posts. That you keep failing to give a definitive answer gives a whiff of sophistry.

I have given an answer. Yes or no is not a satisfactory answer for all questions. Surprise is quite reasonable. It is entirely possible that he was surprised, and that he didn't intend to make Taimandred a theory - and that's what his statements on the issue support. Was he actually surprised? Did he genuinely not think people would see Taimandred? I don't know. I can go by the implication of his recorded statements, which is that he was surprised, but that's it. He says he was surprised, and it's reasonable to believe that he could be. He could be lying, or joking, or using an AS answer. Given that I have quite comprehensively answered the question, what more could a yes or no tell you? Nothing.

 

Damandred

Except to revealing your opinion on a matter that pertains to the larger discussion.

 

Opinion; oxford english; what you think of something, a belief or judgement.

 

Eg. Do you think he thought that would help?

 

People ask other peoples opinions on what other people thought all the time.

 

Note; i ask your opinion not RJ' actual thoughts, so why the necromancy crack?

 

You say you didnt ( sportingly) point out my mistake on the smile thing at first, then you say i made the wrong point, when it was obviously just a mistake on wording, then i point this out, and you bring it up again. This reads to me that you are trying to score points that are not there..

It reads to me that you need to work on correcting your mistakes of wording, so that people know what you're trying to say. You're the one who won't let points die and keeps bringing them up, to the point of falsely claiming my position to be something other than it actually is.

 

 

Damandred

I made a point drawing similatarities in mesanna' and Rand' PoVs, but instead of saying " came as close as ever to smiling" i said " almost smile" more lapse of memory than wording. When you poined out Demandred never smiled. I realised my mistake and corrected it. That should of been the end of it, but in your previous post you twisted that simple mistake to claim i was making a point contrary to my position. You twisted a obvious and honest mistake and instead of taking it in the spirit of which it was ment, spun it in favour of your augument. Now you claim i need to make myself clearer. For someone with so much insight into WoT plots, you have curious blindspots.

 

 

You say the mirror of mists reason for the beard is silly which is absurd. Demandred could of measured the risk of not adding the beard to people casting doubt on his identity and concluded that a imperfect illusion was a greater risk than people casting brief doubts because he shaved.

Or he could have genuinely grown a beard. Was Bashere surprised at the absence of beard purely because a beard is expected of a Saldaean? Well, as not everyone can grow a decent beard, that seems a little suspect. So it's quite reasonable to assume that he had reason to believe Taim had a beard - so why does he no longer have the beard he had before? If imperfect Illusions are the problem, they would surely have been before, but he still had one. Also, he only needs to keep the beard for a brief period, until he can plausibly claim to have shaved.

 

 

Damandred

He wouldnt have needed a earlier illusion, if he had replaced the original Taim.

 

The proxy comment could have been taken as a attempt to turn people off Taimandred which would be understandable, given all the hints for.

Except the hints for Taimandred aren't as numerous as you claim. So now the evidence against is to be taken as evidence for? Saying that something could be a red herring isn't reason enough to believe that it is.

Now you continue to insist that theses two point are some major clues of RJ discouraging Taimandred, i dont see it that way. You also claim there is only one for, but that is simply not true. Please explain the one that can go "either way". It is not just the smile thing, but others , you have pointed out Taim was the original user on the so called comment, but it was still a odd comment to make and one you would exspect from a forsaken and not a proxy, same with the rage thing on pinning the pins on, there is also other referances that draw similararties, such as the way they domminated rooms, put together with how the book finishes and ends, how is that one point?

 

 

How the book begins and ends leads us to suspect Demandred's involvement - but, as I've alredy pointed out repeatedly, that doesn't mean that we must look for who Demandred is impersonating. Is Demandred acting himself, or through others? We certainly know he's acting through others to an extent - he gives orders to the others - and we're told that working through others is a favoured tactic. So the bookends work as well for minion Taim as Taimandred. So-called Aiel? Not something the Chosen have said before, they've said nothing like it, thus not something you'd expect a Chosen to say, and the context implies he's saying it to undermine Rand's confidence in the Aiel, or at the very least to convey his own distrust for them. Thus, either way. A dominating stance? Like a big nose, this is not exactly uncommon enough to be taken as a clue pointing purely towards Demandred. People not liking working under Rand is nothing new, and considering how he's largely been given a free hand it's no surprise that someone as arrogant as him would chafe when Rand shows up and makes Taim look like the number two guy he is. Putting pins on Taim is a reminder that Taim owes his position to Rand, and it does so in front of everyone. Thus it's a clue that works as well for either interpretation. And so on - that's the point I'm making. Using the evidence available at the time, we have a bunch of points that could be spun to either theory, one (a shared mannerism) that points to Taimandred alone, and two (beard and proxies) that work for minion Taim. At the time, people focused on Taimandred, and apparently overlooked the evidence against. I've seen enough times that people - even intelligent people - get caught up in pet theories, and see things in a certain light. Other arguments, sometimes better ones, ones that prove true, are overlooked, beaten down, marginalised. Taimandred was a popular theory, it's really not at all unlikely that confirmation bias entrenched it as the dominant theory over and above others that, on paper, actually have more going for them.

 

 

Damandred

All the chosen are given orders to minions, by this point. It is not unreasonable to assume we would see Demandred on screen given the beginning of the book, as most of the chosen had wore different personas, why not demandred? For the Aiel comments, how could Taim undermine them to Rand, they had been his greatest followers, the only ones who really wanted to follow him.

For distrust why not call them black eyed or black veiled Aiel like everybody else but he doesnt, he uses a term that exspesses doubt to their identity, hinting at knowlage no third ager could have, now while reading LoC the reader could think of your explanations or he could think hes DEMANDRED.

Same for the Domination it could be coincidence or he could be DEMANDRED.

Same for the rage thing, Demandred would rage at being Rands inferier ( for the time being) and usually when peoples pride is hurt in WoT they respond by being stiff. He stiffly walked away. Something like that. But rage is emphasized here, here because his prides hurt or because hes DEMANDRED.

Same with the smile thing, worded exacly the same in mesanna' and Rand' povs again coincidence or because hes DEMANDRED or so we're suposed to think. Each point easily explained on its own but put all together and you see a pattern, that imo could only of been design.

Now we know he was Demandreds minion but not as of LoC.

 

.

So your two BIG points, one imo is more for Taimandred, and the other could of ( reasonibly) been seen as misdirection. While a whole book of telling similarites and a more than sugestive beginning and ending to the book is clumped together as one point.

Except, you've not explained how the beard is evidence for Taimandred - you've shown, at best, that it could be explained away if Taimandred were true. The same with the proxies point. Just because either can be worked around, doesn't mean that they should be, and you've given no reason why they should be.

 

 

Damandred

He hasnt got a beard becauses hes wearing a illusion, that could of been the reason bashere brought it up. Thats for Taimandred. Except you keep claiming it as a definitive point against.

 

Concratulations your capacity to twist evidence to favor your own arguments is truely awe inspiring.

It's a gift.

 

 

Damandred

Indeed. The way you move goal posts then boldly say to others they do it, takes some brass.

 

Just wondering; if we're not going to take the quoted statement at face value, how exactly are we ever going to reach a definitive conclusion one way or another when he's been dead for years?

Necromancy. Definitely necromancy.

 

Damandred

Asking for a opinion not a definitive answer.

 

 

 

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

This right here. RJ had to have known what he was doing, either directly or indirectly. He can't have been surprised.

This is the question I originaly asked Mr Ares, he has not answered a simple yes or no. I have and so has others. I am simply asking his opinion on it.

I press him on it because he states that as of the end of LoC, there is more evidence that Taim is not Demandred than is and that RJ put enough clues in to make it obvious he wasnt. I dispute this. Now in hindsight we now know the clues pointed at Taim being Demandreds minion, but at the end of LoC i state Taimandred was a logical conclusion, he disputes that.

No, I don't. I have admitted that there was evidence for Taimandred. I dispute that it was the best interpretation of the available evidence. So far, no reason has been given to support the idea that it was the best interpretation at the time. Granted, it was the theory that gained the most traction at the time, but that's not an indicator it's the best. Given that I have said all this before, i would kindly ask you to stop lying about my argument.

Damandred 18 th feb

" As poined out by others, the prologue and Taim' attitude in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion, you say there were clues that it wasnt".

 

Damandred

Rather than correct me that you do think it was a logical conclusion, you appear to go against it.

 

Mr Ares reply

 

"Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat.

Its a oddity about Taim, and oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway.

Why dont i do the same thing?

"The smiling thing is ridiculous . If you have anyother clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness please provide them".

The indications that they are the same man are very thin and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out".

 

Damandred

Seems pretty clear

 

please dont accuse me of lying again.

 

If you do think it was a logical conclusion great! Just give your opinion on the RJ thing and we can put this to bed.

Edited by damandred

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