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Is Taim Actually Demandred???

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Can we have a poll on this. Not to sure how it should be phrased. Maybe.

Did Robert Jordan intend Taimandred to be a red herring.

Yes, he fooled us good.

No, but thought some might draw comparisons between Taim and Demandred

No, absolutly not. He was surprised that people thought it.

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OP hasn't been around in 13 months, so no unless you make it or bribe a mod. I'd add an unintentional red herring option.

 

I never liked Taim always being someone's impostor. I'm not saying impossible (because there's really nothing that's impossible except flying with the OP lol), but it would certainly would have been nice to have some kind of biographical info on Mazrim Taim so it could be :)

 

We don't get much info on the created identities of the other Forsaken (Rahvin, Sammy, Belal). Messy replaced someone existing (off the top of my head), Arangar's alt was inserted into an existing AS' life. Not really sure who else is comparable to make those types of comparisons (and I don't see Keille and bard as directly comparable).

Edited by Cybertrolloc

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No it was the M'hael that originally ordered them to kill Rand, Kinsman when he fled from Rand in Far Maddingis thinking and it says "Kill him" the M'hael ordered before sending them to Cairhein, but he had been displeased then had been found out as they had failed. 

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@ Mr Ares

 

So people thought one person was another based on a couple of similarities, and thought a different person was someone else based on a couple of similarities, and you say the different popularity of the two theories is due to one being based on a couple of similarities and the other being based on a couple of similarities, so they're completely different.

 

@ Damandred reply

 

 

I said there were 2 similarities in the olver/ cain theory, and many in Taimandred. That is different. 2 or a couple is not the same as many.

I dont know wether you misunderstood that, or attempted to mock my answer, because you had nothing else, if so, it was cheap.

I thought Olver could be Cain based on, Olver' age and the fact that it is said they are both pretty ugly. Thats it. Nothing else.

With Taimandred there were MANY little pointers Bashere' suspicion, the fact that he used phases the forsaken had used, ie; ( so called ) . The Lord of Chaos at the end of KoD. But the biggest of all the fact that we never saw Demandred. Here we have perhaps the most powerfull forsaken, with a deep personal hatred of LTT, we know hes important to the overall plot from the little hints through the books. But we never see him. Since a lot of other forsaken used disguises, its only logical too assume he did too, for me a big neon sign pointered at Taim for that post.

 

Was it ever stated by RJ that he didnt draw similarities between Olver and Cain so people would think Olver was Cain.

Except you overstate the similarities between Taim and Demandred. Bashere's suspicion is a point against (as I've already proved), Taimandred was long out of the window by the time KoD came on the scene, and have we ever seen Demandred use "so-called Aiel"? Let's not overlook that after Taimandred was ruled out, quite a few people tried using many of the exact same pieces of evidence to prove that Taim was Moridin or Be'lal (possibly there are other, older theories as well that were ruled out by the time I joined, but I've certainly seen people argue Belaim and Taimidin. There are probably Taimmael and Taimodean arguments out there as well *shudder*). In terms of evidence that was specifically towards Demandred, and during the timeframe before the theory was shot down (books 6-8), there were only a couple of similarities.

 

The examples i gave were just from the top of my head. The LoC book is full of Taimandred hints.

There is the half smiles, Dominating stance, the rage when Rand pins the Asha'man pin on him. Theres more in other books as well, comments made about Demandred keeping a watch on Rand and more. The theories you gave about the other forsaken dont hold anything up to Taimandred as we had at least, to various degrees, knew something of there activities. Demandred nothing. Only little hints. Theres comments on Taims half smile and Demandreds in the same book dammit.

For the KoD example i made i hadnt visited DM when i read that so the Taimandred theory was still valid to me.

 

As a side thought i dont know if it has already been done, but it would be good to know if others thought if RJ intended Taimandred to be a red herring at first. Some kind of poll?

 

Ps, for the so called Aiel comment i drew attention to it as its something that someone from the age of legends would say.

 

Demandred doesn't half-smile, he doesn't smile at all. Pointing out that one of them doesn't smile and the other half-smiles is a difference, not a similarity. Bear in mind that three of the male Chosen (Demandred, Be'lal and Sammael) have LTT listed as a big part of their reason for defecting, and there are plenty of people in the Third Age who dislike Rand - so rage when he's putting the dragon pin on him is a similarity with any number of people. A dominating stance? Really? So many of the similarities between Taim and Demandred are either not similarities or they are similarities with lots of other characters as well. For similarities that point specifically towards Demandred, there are very few, and right from the start there were big stumbling blocks to Taimandred - these only grew greater as time went on, and the similarities diminished. There are also a number of suggestive points that aren't based on similarities, but they suffer from the same problems of big stumbling blocks and the evidence being easily interpreted in other ways. The problem with "so-called Aiel" is that while we've only seen AoLers use it, we don't know all of them would use the phrase, and when they have used it they've not been so careless as to do it in front of the people they are using disguises to hide from. And WH kills Taimandred.

 

By the way, I believe this is the RJ quote Suttree referred to:

ISABEL

Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)? ROBERT JORDAN

I was surprised but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

Note that in this context it would imply that RJ's surprise was not at the number of people who accepted the theory, but that it was a theory at all, and that it was not a deliberate red herring that proved successful.

 

Note he still doesnt deny it, the way the question is asked gives him a way out. RJ loved to mess with us, remember his ambiguous reply to the question about ishamael and the, has the dragon been turned debate? Come on, Taimandred didnt just spring up out of nothing.

 

No-one's claiming that it did. Just that there was evidence right from the very start that it wasn't true.

 

So right from the start, Forsaken planning some big gamble that nearly has Demandred smiling. The readers set up for something big from them concuding at the wells.

Then nearly the whole book is Rand establishing the BT, Taim is iffy from the start and displays odd behavior and odd remarks, he says, renagade Aiel as well, how can any third ager know about the Aiel breaking from the way of the leaf?

Why does he have to? It might be the most obvious explanation for Taim's comments, but it wasn't the only one (and we don't even know if it was the correct one).

Im not going to go through all the Taimandred clues again because they can be spun back to fit both sides.

That's exactly my point. RJ wrote a book with a lot of clues indicating that this guy is Demandred's pawn (but not Demandred himself), and people picked up on him being Demandred himself. Authors don't control what people read into their work, and it's hardly unheard of for people to come up with things that just never occurred to the author. Harriet was apparently unaware of the sword in the stone connection in TDR, and she has less knowledge of RJ's plans than RJ did. That knowledge can lead to blindness, as you don't know what the readers will pick up on and what they won't. Maybe Harriet pointed out the similarity, and then RJ threw in the beard stuff to disprove it, and then people didn't pick up on it or spun it the wrong way and suddenly something he had already ruled out was a popular theory. RJ being surprised isn't that big a stretch.

 

 

 

He wants to be recognised as Taim. Thus shaving is counter-productive for anyone but Taim always as Taim. For Demandred, being in a position of reduced trust is a major issue. It could severely hamper his plans.

 

See this is what I disagree with. If Taim was always Demandred, then I don't think this would matter. He wouldn't WANT to be recognized as Taim, as if he wanted to make sure that people thought he was masquerading as Taim. He was already Taim. So when it comes down to it, whether as Taim or Demandred as Taim, shaving would be something he could do and not think about. I mean, if a bearded criminal escapes prison and goes to hide out with someone else who might help him, does he really worry that that person won't recognize him? If that concern even occurred to him, it would also occur to him that it would take all of 2 seconds to prove who you are.

 

Shaving is not that big of a deal, at least by itself. It's not like he dyed his hair or did anything else to hide his identity. If Taim-as-Taim really had wanted to hide, he would've taken a page from Rand's book (when Rand was luring Rochaid and the other rogue Ashaman in WH). Shaving, while changing appearances somewhat, is not really all that drastic. Especially if Taim is really running and in hiding. For Taim-as-Taim, shaving seems a pretty minimal attempt at hiding. But if he shaved simply because he thought it was hot, then it would not really be a big deal. He was Taim. Had it occurred to him that people might question him, he'd be able allay any concerns without much effort, up to and including channelling. When Bashere questioned him, he didn't come across as nervous or surprised that Bashere wondered. He answered and then gave proof.

 

I've already pointed out the problem with the "shaving due to the heat" theory. A guy who seems untouched by the heat using the heat as a reason to shave is an alarm bell. Which leaves Demandred with no reason to do it, but Taim still has the excuse of disguise. Now, one problem with creating a new person is that that person doesn't have a history - so if you pry into that person's past, you find nothing. Now, if there's no reason to look, that's not a problem, but in acting suspicious you give a reason to look. Taim-as-Taim is fine - you can look all you want, this guy has a genuine life. Demandred-as-Taim, well, you've taken over this guys life. Demandred-always-as-Taim, there's no life to take over. It doesn't matte rif Taim is suspicious, because he's real. It does matter if Demandred is suspicious, because "Taim" isn't real. People questioning his identity is a problem for him. Now, unless he uses reversed compulsion weaves and is able to hide that he's holding the Source while he does it, he has no way to guarantee Bashere's reaction. Even then, he has no way to control Rand's. Given that he has no control over whether or not seeds of suspicion will take root and flourish, encouraging those seeds to be sown is not in his interest. If Taim was always Taim it doesn't matter, because it can be shown that he is not a Chosen, that he is who he says he is.

 

 

No, but any Chosen looking to get close to Rand would likely take his suspicion and awareness of their habit of getting close to him like this into account. You don't have to do it via decoys, but the decoys take Rand's suspicions into account and use them to the advantage of Lanfear and Asmo. The same is not true of Bashere's suspicions of Taim, which serve only to cast doubt and suspicion on Taim - which Demandred wouldn't want. Osan'gar didn't try to get close to Rand (Rand picked him) and Anath didn't try to get close to him either. Thus neither of them needed to take his suspicions into account in their plan to get close to him, because they didn't have one. According to Taimandred, Demandred did have a plan, and he apparently went about it in a very slapdash and incompetent way - by showing up and having Bashere question his identity, because he didn't look enough like Taim. He acts so as to provoke Rand's suspicions, not allay or misdirect them. True, suspicion doesn't take root, but that's not due to "Demandred". He would be considered to have gotten lucky.

Lanfear's usage of decoys doesn't translate to the other chosen doing the same.

 

I never said that it did. "You don't have to do it via decoys". Seems quite clear to me. The Chosen know that Asmo went over to Rand. Therefore, they know he has knowledge of the AoL. Even if you don't respect Rand's intelligence, even if you don't respect Asmo's competence as a teacher, it's still quite a leap for them to tempt fate like that. Yes, Sammael is dismissive, but Sammael keeps his distance, he attacks from afar, he doesn't try to get close to Rand like that. So Demandred knows Rand has at least some knowledge of them, yet takes no precautions, and even tempts fate?

 

We've also seen trying to get close to Rand have little success, and book 6 features Demandred being given a new masterplan from Shai'tan. So the obvious set up is they keep doing what they've been doing before? "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" means "try and get close to Rand again"? We see Demandred passing instructions to the others, so clearly this plan is bigger than just Demandred. Dumai's Wells is a triumph - the Light attacking the Light, driving a wedge between the White Tower and Rand - why would he not be talking about that triumph? There are plenty of things going on in LoC. Why would you assume that the ending is about just Taim? But for Taim to be just another pawn in Demandred's game, that fits just as well, if not better. Yes, Taim is suspicious, but there is a world of difference between "suspicious" and "Demandred". When the Taimandred evidence can all be spun multiple ways, when the argument for minion Taim is as strong as Taimandred, and there are notable problems with Taimandred that minion Taim doesn't have, why assume Taimandred?

Just because Lanfear had tried to get close to Rand or the light team and now the DO has a new plan doesn't mean that they dont try that again. They just do it better and work together. The fact is, up until book 6, the forsaken mostly went their own way with their own path. When that failed, the DO took more control and used Demandred reign most everyone in and let them know what he wanted. That doesn't necessarily mean that getting close to principles is now out. Indeed, we see Halima did just that with regard to Egwene. So the technique is sound. It was the execution by Lanfear (who was always playing her own game) that had made it not work.

 

I never said they don't try that again, I asked why you would assume the new plan is simply repeating the old one? And Halima getting close to Egwene is different, because Egwene isn't Rand.

 

And while the BT wasn't the only thing going on in LOC (by any means), when one is looking for a forsaken (as we would be expected to be, especially after he was thrust into such a position of prominence through his appearance in the prologue, his being chosen by the DO to be his spokesman (and possible Naeblis) in view of a dead Ishamael, and finally his indication that he had much to do with some major events in LOC, well Taim really seemed to be the best possibility. Without any context or veracity for Sammael's words concerning proxies (which all this turned out to be) Taim fit best. And the similarities and perceived similarities between Taim and Demandred, as well as LTT rantings and perceived double-meanings to Taim's statements and actions (which similarly later identified Dashiva as a forsaken), it seems natural.

Firstly, I don't see why you're looking for a Chosen. The hand of a Chosen, yes, but it doesn't follow that they have to be acting in person. Especially as Sammael's comment on proxies turned out to be accurate, even if not in the way he intended - events to the South (the BT) did involve Demandred's proxy, Taim. Again, it's another clue, right up front, that Taim is a minion, not Demandred. Even LTT's rantings prominently feature Sammael - yes, Demandred is featured more heavily, but he rants about the both of them. 

 

Remember too that up to that point, we had no evidence that Taim was even a darkfriend, so the Minion-Taim wasn't possible. Up to that point, he had done nothing, other than be arrogant to Rand and resent him, that showed dark allegiences. Suspicious, but that's it. So he was either who he said he was and just acted suspicious or he was Demandred. By the end of LOC those were our only 2 options. And given that LOC seemed to have Demandred as a major player, Taim as Demandred fit.

Minion Taim was as possible as Taimandred. We have legitimate grounds for suspicion of Taim, but we also have a couple of pieces of evidence that weigh against Taimandred. Minion Taim was the theory best supported by the evidence available at the time, in that it explains the suspicions we have while also explaining the Taimandred stumbling blocks.

 

 

Well, most every theory but Graendal had massive holes. By the end, she was the only one with any real credibility. Plus, RJ admitted that he didn't tell people because he enjoyed messing with the fanbase - the same reason he gave for not disabusing people of Taimandred. "Intuitively obvious" was never intended to be taken seriously. That's a little different to his statements on Taimandred.

 

Not really. There were a lot of viable suspects, including Sammael and even Slayer. After we had learned that Slayer had killed Amico and Joiya and was the shadow's assassin (made clear from WH forward) he became a favorite. If I recall correctly, the FAQ of 2001 makes it clear that he had jumped from a "looney theory" to a really viable suspect. Graendal, in my opinion, was a ho-hum suspect. We never had a good motivation for her to be there. One of the reasons so many wondered about who killed Asmodean was the perception that it was being kept a secret because it betrayed a larger secret, regarding someone's plan or something. The fact that that wasn't true was one of the reasons that it was a let-down. In the end, Asmodean's killing did nothing beyond deprive Rand an assett. The need for secrecy was unnecessary. While I think that RJ did enjoy messing with the fanbase concerning Asmodean's killer, I think he felt that it really was clearly obvious. He said it too many times. The fact it his perception and reality regarding what was obvious or surprising was colored by what he clearly knew. I think it was similar with Taimandred.

One thing people have said many times is that one of RJ's teachers used to wind him up by claiming things were intuitively obvious when they weren't. Thus, his comments on Asmo were to be taken in the same vein. He was also up front about Asmo's killer not having any relevance. Sammael was ruled out in book 7, but was a big stretch even before that. Slayer required evidence that wasn't available at the time, and still had massive holes (we never knew if he and Asmo knew each other, when Asmo clearly knew his killer, and Slayer being an assassin means we now need to find the person who ordered the hit). Graendal was both the most solid at the time and became more so as time passed. She even makes sense intuitively, with her otherwise unclear role in the narrative compared to the others in the plan (Rahvin and Lanfear were both taken out, and Sammael was a decoy antagonist). Graendal makes sense on many levels, and most of the other candidates didn't.

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I'm only going to touch on a few things because at this point, I really don't see the point in arguing the beard thing any further. I think we have a difference of opinion regarding the whole shaving incident, And given that that is the primary objection to Taimandred (as of LOC) that people could make from the entire book, I'm just going to say that I disagree. I really don't think, esp in view of the preponderance of innuendo and subtle misunderstood clues (indicating a connection between Taim and Demandred), that the beard poses all that much of a problem.

 

 

 

Firstly, I don't see why you're looking for a Chosen. The hand of a Chosen, yes, but it doesn't follow that they have to be acting in person. Especially as Sammael's comment on proxies turned out to be accurate, even if not in the way he intended - events to the South (the BT) did involve Demandred's proxy, Taim. Again, it's another clue, right up front, that Taim is a minion, not Demandred. Even LTT's rantings prominently feature Sammael - yes, Demandred is featured more heavily, but he rants about the both of them. 

 

Why were we looking for a chosen?  His importance to the story is clearly indicated by his bookending the story. He literally appears in the prologue as the first scene and is set up to be the DO's hand to carry out his will, a new movement in the dark's plans- something more coherent and focused and deadly. At the end of the book, we see Demandred basking in the GL's laughter as presumably things are going according to plan. Given that sort of presentation, it's only natural to believe that what he had just read had Demandred's hand all over it and that he was directly involved.

 

And the ONLY indicator that Demandred might not actually be directly involved was a throw-away comment by Sammael that wasn't even accurate. Sammael said events "to the south." If he was referring to south of where he was- visiting Graendal in Arad Domon- then he was referring to Tarabon, where the Seanchan took over. If he was referring to his base of Illian, south of there would be the ocean, but perhaps what was going on in the ocean (the buildup of Seanchan forces, who were soon to launch an attack on Altara at the end of POD, or perhaps what was going on in the Sea Folk isles.) In either case, the BT was not indicated by his comment (as Andor is south of Arad Domon in the same way California is south of New York- wrong major axis). If anything, Sammael's comment had us looking at the Seanchan forces for the location of Demandred, esp since we did not yet know Semirhage was with them. Yes, the term proxy turned out to be very accurate, but it's a stretch to build a theory from that one statement when you have a whole book making you look everywhere for Demandred specifically- esp when you have a guy running around acting a lot like we'd expect Demandred to act (given what we knew of him at that point.)

 

Minion Taim was as possible as Taimandred. We have legitimate grounds for suspicion of Taim, but we also have a couple of pieces of evidence that weigh against Taimandred. Minion Taim was the theory best supported by the evidence available at the time, in that it explains the suspicions we have while also explaining the Taimandred stumbling blocks.

I disagree with this. Other than his dislike of Rand and being second to him (given his offer of a partnership at the beginning) nothing in Taim itself indicated he was a dark friend. Indeed, the only reason Taim seemed more than he was was the clues indicating a connection to Demandred. And those clues were of a nature that they convinced a large number of people that he WAS Demandred. Think about it. What clues were there indicating that Taim was actually a minion of Demandred (esp since we only had a minimal amount of accurate information about him)? Any such clues had to do with how he reacted to Rand, terms he used, and the fact that we were on the lookout for Demandred. So here comes this guy acting in many ways just as we'd expect Demandred to. But let's say we let the beard thing be the thing that kept us from accepting he was Demandred. At that point, I think we'd just say he's strange. Because nothing else he does, up to this point in the book, seems indicative of his loyalties. Indeed, it wasn't until book 9 that we actually had anything concrete indicating he was dark (barring everything up to that point that indicated Taimandred.)

 

Minion Taim was a weak theory (as of LOC) precisely because in LOC there is nothing indicating he is a dark friend. The only possible clues pointed to his BEING Demandred as much as associating with him because they were all based in nuance and audience expectation. We expected Demandred to be a major player and Taim fit. Therefore, everything he said and did was interpreted through that lens. But the perceived darkness we got through that lens only worked because we thought he was Demandred. Otherwise, he is like the hundred other characters who got pissy around Rand.

 

 

 

One thing people have said many times is that one of RJ's teachers used to wind him up by claiming things were intuitively obvious when they weren't. Thus, his comments on Asmo were to be taken in the same vein. He was also up front about Asmo's killer not having any relevance. Sammael was ruled out in book 7, but was a big stretch even before that. Slayer required evidence that wasn't available at the time, and still had massive holes (we never knew if he and Asmo knew each other, when Asmo clearly knew his killer, and Slayer being an assassin means we now need to find the person who ordered the hit). Graendal was both the most solid at the time and became more so as time passed. She even makes sense intuitively, with her otherwise unclear role in the narrative compared to the others in the plan (Rahvin and Lanfear were both taken out, and Sammael was a decoy antagonist). Graendal makes sense on many levels, and most of the other candidates didn't.

I'd like to see that quote. I've never heard that RJ used that term as an inside joke referencing an old teacher of his. And I don't recall his saying that Asmo's killer had no relevance. Indeed, if one peruses the FAQ's from LOC to WH, many of the Asmo's killer theories were part of larger theories- houses of cards- and that's why we thought he kept it such a secret.

 

Slayer had been a looney theory up until book 9. And then we saw Slayer in action and the extent of both his powers, his interaction with the Chosen, and how he worked. We learned that it had been he that killed Amico and Joiya, as well as the grey man outside the girl's rooms in the white tower. When we looked back at TSR, all the clues for Slayer had been there. His powers, his role, and his MO. Suddenly, we looked at TSR through the lens of information we had received in WH and Slayer suddenly jumped into focus. He would exactly be someone that could have been used to kill Asmodean. If Fain had at least a passing familiarity with Isam (and TSR seemed to indicate he did) then it stood to reason that at least a few among the chosen, including Asmo knew who he was and what he did for the dark. Hence, his surprise and fear. He knew exactly why Slayer was there and what that meant for him. Slayer's abilities gave him an excellent in and out of the location. It perversely fit what RJ called "intuitively obvious". As to the reason RJ kept it secret, yes, then we'd need to know who ordered the hit. And knowing that would give stuff away. So RJ's being secretive about it seemed to actually have a purpose.

 

As for Sammael as a suspect, yes he was debunked in book 7. But there were still a number of possibilities, aside from Slayer. Lanfear, for one. We know she got away from the *finns because we knew Moiraine was going to. But we had no knowledge of how. When she showed up in book 8 as Cyndane, it only served to solidify the possibility that her first act, out of *finnland was to take away the advantage she had given to Rand (perhaps even on orders from Moridin. We know how the DO felt that Moghedien had been forced into helping the girls and removing that advantage was one of Halima's first acts once in the Salidar camp). We had no idea how long she had been there or what a Chosen might do or know in interacting with them- something Moiraine wouldn't have. So it might have fit the timeline.

 

The bottom line is, I cannot believe RJ didn't expect people to make the connection between Taim and Demandred- and more than that they associated together. The very bookend structure of LOC and the clues he gave were too strong for that. He had to at least suspect that people would think they were the same, esp given the similarities he wrote into the character. Even through POD, Taim still acted as we suspect that Demandred might. The only real monkey-wrench was thrown in in book 9, around the same time RJ publically denounced the theory. I still believe that as of LOC and even POD, Taimandred was the best theory for Demandred's location.

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All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

This right here. RJ had to have known what he was doing, either directly or indirectly. He can't have been surprised.
@ Mr Ares.

 

 

You failed to answer this. Yes or No?

 

 

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

Oxford english dictionary: renegade; a person who deserts a group or religion.

So what else could he mean?

If a ancestor of mine who lived after the American War of Independence, said so called or renegade Americans, that would be a understandable comment. For me to say it or any english man of our time to say it, we would most probably be asked to explain our comments. Americans now days are simply Americans, even if he was speaking about shaido ( he wasnt ) even they wouldnt be so called. To any third ager Aiel are simply Aiel.

 

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

 

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

 

 

Ps I know i said the beard thing wasnt worth debating ( it isnt ) but thought that last point worth a mention

Edited by damandred

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You want to search intuitively obvious to find that quote.

 

I think we can make the beard thing make sense, but only because we know the answers now :)

 

Is there a KoD instance of Dem being less these cave-men are useless to us except for the most trivial things than the other Forsaken? That would help a lot. I guess that isn't fair because we have 4 Dem scenes (one not from his PoV and two very short with more important things on his mind like hanging with the DO). In other words, taking the result then looking for corroborating evidence, which is fine for a court of law, but I thought we were above that sophistry.

 

Considering the amount of effort displayed here, thinking it would have been easier to just take everything Taim and Dem scene by scene--there really isn't that much :)

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Minion Taim was a weak theory (as of LOC) precisely because in LOC there is nothing indicating he is a dark friend.

 

I always thought the fact that he new a version lesser compulsion was a pretty good indication.

 

As for Asmo's killer, this was written after book 8 and RJ left a note saying it is spot on.

 

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/4975913/1/Sherlock-Holmes-Examines-the-Death-of-Asmodean

Edited by Suttree

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Minion Taim was a weak theory (as of LOC) precisely because in LOC there is nothing indicating he is a dark friend.

 

I always thought the fact that he new a version lesser compulsion was a pretty good indication.

 

As for Asmo's killer, this was written after book 8 and RJ left a note saying it is spot on.

 

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/4975913/1/Sherlock-Holmes-Examines-the-Death-of-Asmodean

 

You know I had totally spaced that part. Taim dead use a slightly weaker form of compulsion. It's been so long since I went over the actual evidence for Taimandred that I forgot that. I do remember, though, that up to that time, we pretty much had only seen forsaken use compulsion (Graendal, Rhavin, Moghedien). Liandrin used something that made a person more willing to listen in TGH and later TFOH, but it wasn't mentally invasive, from the descriptions. It made them a bit more susceptible to suggestion (eg: Lady Amalisa). I remember thinking the fact that Taimandred used a compulsion that seemed to have metally "ruined" (if I recall correctly) the 2 people Bashere had sent to kill him reminded me of the the ways Graendal used compulsion. For me, it seemed another piece of evidence for Taimandred.

 

But with Taim not Demandred, it would seem to point to him being a dark friend, at least as of LOC. Of course, in the prologue to POD, we see Verin also use compulsion and she is musing on how she pieced it together. She tells that almost all girls who start channeling before they come to the tower usually develop tricks of a certain sort. Those tricks could be broken up into 2 categories. Listening in on conversations (like Moiraine and her blue stone). And a sort of weak compulsion. Usually the compulsion-like tricks were hit on hard enough that most women forgot how they did it. But Verin, over the years, had teased enough information out of her sisters who used to do it that she was able to come up with a pretty effective form (though it required that the receiver come up with their own reason for obeying the compulsion.) So that would seem to indicate that not everyone who came up with a kind of compulsion was automatically a darkfriend and that would have applied to Taim as well.

 

But of course, all that was in POD, so that compulsion weave would have given credence to minion-Taim as of LOC if Taimandred wasn't true. I'm trying to think of anything else in LOC/COS/POD that would have given Taim's allegiences away. I don't recall any Verinisms, though of course that doesn't mean anything.

 

I do remember that Holmes-like piece concerning Graendal and I thought it was clever and pretty logical. Of course, RJ didn't say it was spot on right away, did he? As I recall he seemed content to let the waters churn. Can you refresh my mind as to when he said it was spot on, and in what context? I do seem to remember something about that, but it also seems out of character of him to do that while also telling fans "RAFO". I remember him saying that he had read at least one explanation that got it exactly correct, but I don't recall if he specifically said which one. Again, I just wonder as it seems odd of him to specifically answer a fan-theory when at the same time (and up to his death) he never specifically came out and said who the murderer was.

 

As I said, Graendal was definitely a major suspect. I won't say that I thought she was the only one though. As I mentioned, esp after book 9, Slayer seemed to be as strong a candidate and there weren't a lot of assumptions that had to be made for him to be a good fit. (Indeed, I think the only one was that Asmodean know who he was so he could exclaim "You! No!" Not a huge stretch.) Lanfear required a bit more (that she have gotten out of *finnland and was in Caemlyn in time.) But given what we didn't know about the *finns and the rules for interacting with them and leaving, it was not impossible. At least, from what we knew at that point. Still, some assumptions had to be made.

 

My point is not that Graendal was not a frontrunner. She definitely was (though because of that, maybe a bit boring, at least in my opinion). But there was at least 1 more possibility (and probably more if I care to dig up the old faqs and go over that monster section) that weren't just full of holes. And all of this goes to the statement that something RJ put out there was "intuitively obvious" when that was hardly the case. I view his "surprise" that people jumped on the Taimandred thing and stuck with it so long in the same vein. Certainly if, as he admits, he conceived of Gaidal/Olver as a red herring (based on only the minimalist of clues- ugliness and the disappearance of Cain) and was only surprised at how many people stuck to it, I cannot conceive that he really didn't expect that people wouldn't confuse Taim and Demandred (when he was leaving clues to show they were connected), esp when there was very little over books 6-8 that served to countradict that theory.

Edited by Ian Ohlander

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I'm only going to touch on a few things because at this point, I really don't see the point in arguing the beard thing any further. I think we have a difference of opinion regarding the whole shaving incident, And given that that is the primary objection to Taimandred (as of LOC) that people could make from the entire book, I'm just going to say that I disagree. I really don't think, esp in view of the preponderance of innuendo and subtle misunderstood clues (indicating a connection between Taim and Demandred), that the beard poses all that much of a problem.

So you can't explain an important discrepancy. One that shifts the most likely interpretation of the clues from Taim-is Demandred to Taim-is-Demandred's pawn.

 

 

Firstly, I don't see why you're looking for a Chosen. The hand of a Chosen, yes, but it doesn't follow that they have to be acting in person. Especially as Sammael's comment on proxies turned out to be accurate, even if not in the way he intended - events to the South (the BT) did involve Demandred's proxy, Taim. Again, it's another clue, right up front, that Taim is a minion, not Demandred. Even LTT's rantings prominently feature Sammael - yes, Demandred is featured more heavily, but he rants about the both of them.

 

Why were we looking for a chosen?  His importance to the story is clearly indicated by his bookending the story. He literally appears in the prologue as the first scene and is set up to be the DO's hand to carry out his will, a new movement in the dark's plans- something more coherent and focused and deadly. At the end of the book, we see Demandred basking in the GL's laughter as presumably things are going according to plan. Given that sort of presentation, it's only natural to believe that what he had just read had Demandred's hand all over it and that he was directly involved.

 

And the ONLY indicator that Demandred might not actually be directly involved was a throw-away comment by Sammael that wasn't even accurate.

 

As opposed to the non-existent indicators that he was directly involved? One indicator of a preference to act through others, none of a preference to act in person. Which is more likely, given what we knew of him at the time? Why, obviously that he acts through others. Therefore, LoC primes us to look for Demandred's proxies, not Demandred himself. The proof that Sammael was wrong came later, and we are discussing the evidence as of LoC. It is on that basis that I reach this conclusion. I ask again, why are you looking for the man himself, rather than just his hand? It's not at all a stretch to take into account one of the few things we know about Demandred and use that in our theorycrafting. Ignoring aspects of his character that are inconvenient doesn't help your case.

 

Minion Taim was as possible as Taimandred. We have legitimate grounds for suspicion of Taim, but we also have a couple of pieces of evidence that weigh against Taimandred. Minion Taim was the theory best supported by the evidence available at the time, in that it explains the suspicions we have while also explaining the Taimandred stumbling blocks.

 disagree with this. Other than his dislike of Rand and being second to him (given his offer of a partnership at the beginning) nothing in Taim itself indicated he was a dark friend. Indeed, the only reason Taim seemed more than he was was the clues indicating a connection to Demandred. And those clues were of a nature that they convinced a large number of people that he WAS Demandred. Think about it. What clues were there indicating that Taim was actually a minion of Demandred (esp since we only had a minimal amount of accurate information about him)? Any such clues had to do with how he reacted to Rand, terms he used, and the fact that we were on the lookout for Demandred. So here comes this guy acting in many ways just as we'd expect Demandred to. But let's say we let the beard thing be the thing that kept us from accepting he was Demandred. At that point, I think we'd just say he's strange. Because nothing else he does, up to this point in the book, seems indicative of his loyalties. Indeed, it wasn't until book 9 that we actually had anything concrete indicating he was dark (barring everything up to that point that indicated Taimandred.)

 

Minion Taim was a weak theory (as of LOC) precisely because in LOC there is nothing indicating he is a dark friend. The only possible clues pointed to his BEING Demandred as much as associating with him because they were all based in nuance and audience expectation. We expected Demandred to be a major player and Taim fit. Therefore, everything he said and did was interpreted through that lens. But the perceived darkness we got through that lens only worked because we thought he was Demandred. Otherwise, he is like the hundred other characters who got pissy around Rand.

There are a number of suspicious points about Taim. Most of these can be interpreted multiple ways. We expect Demandred to be a major player. We also expect him to use proxies, given we're told early on he likes to use them. Connect the dots. There might be nothing indicating he's a Darkfriend, but that also indicates a lack of evidence of him being a Chosen. If you're not looking for the hand of Demandred there, what's so bad about him?

 

 

One thing people have said many times is that one of RJ's teachers used to wind him up by claiming things were intuitively obvious when they weren't. Thus, his comments on Asmo were to be taken in the same vein. He was also up front about Asmo's killer not having any relevance. Sammael was ruled out in book 7, but was a big stretch even before that. Slayer required evidence that wasn't available at the time, and still had massive holes (we never knew if he and Asmo knew each other, when Asmo clearly knew his killer, and Slayer being an assassin means we now need to find the person who ordered the hit). Graendal was both the most solid at the time and became more so as time passed. She even makes sense intuitively, with her otherwise unclear role in the narrative compared to the others in the plan (Rahvin and Lanfear were both taken out, and Sammael was a decoy antagonist). Graendal makes sense on many levels, and most of the other candidates didn't.

I'd like to see that quote.

 

Frankly, so would I. I've seen plenty of people reference it, but that's it.

And I don't recall his saying that Asmo's killer had no relevance. Indeed, if one peruses the FAQ's from LOC to WH, many of the Asmo's killer theories were part of larger theories- houses of cards- and that's why we thought he kept it such a secret.

And it died out after that because RJ kept saying he just enjoyed watching us squirm.

 

Slayer had been a looney theory up until book 9.

Precisely. It was possible to be worked out using only evidence available as of book 5. Slayer wasn't possible based on that because he was too much of an unknown. And, because he couldn't be predicted based on that, he must therefore be wrong. Also, we know he hadn't met all the Chosen. Even as of book 14 there's a big question mark over the recognising factor, even more so as of book 5.

 

As for Sammael as a suspect, yes he was debunked in book 7. But there were still a number of possibilities, aside from Slayer.

All weak, with notable holes. We'd just seen Lanfear die, apparently. To assume that she could get out at some point is one thing, to assume she would do so within hours, then go and kill Asmo of all people, is a massive stretch and doesn't really make any sense. Why wouldn't she take out Avi? And we'd not seen Shai'tan transmigrate by that point. Moiraine? Same problem. Bashere? No means, motive, or opportunity. Aviendha? No motive, last seen elsewhere, Asmo's reaction doesn't fit. Moridin? Not introduced, same with Shaidar Haran, and neither would be recognised. I've argued against all these theories, and more. The problems with every theory but Graendal are well documented. Yes, there were suspects besides her. None were nearly as strong. She may have been boring, but there was nothing against her.

 

 

 

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

This right here. RJ had to have known what he was doing, either directly or indirectly. He can't have been surprised.

 

@ Mr Ares.

 

 

You failed to answer this.

 

No, I didn't. I said it's not at all a stretch to think that he might have overlooked Taimandred because he was busy laying the clues down in a different direction.

 

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

Well, what did he mean by them anyway? We know now that Taim isn't Demandred, so we know he wasn't speaking from direct knowledge. That means Demandred gave him a history lesson that he really took to heart, or that he heard the phrase and picked up on it despite not knowing the meaning, or he meant something else altogether. Interestingly, I just checked Ideal Seek for "so-called Aiel" - the first use is Taim's own in LoC11. That makes Taim the originator of the phrase, and if we are discussing the the point of view of up to LoC, and not after, then we cannot see this phrase as a link to the Chosen (who have never used it). As Aiel means "dedicated" and he's casting doubt on them ("who knows what these so-called Aiel will do?") the most obvious implication is that he's questioning their dedication. As for renegades, he's talking about the Siswai'aman. The people who have broken away from the mainstream Aiel. Thus, renegades.

 

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat. It's an oddity about Taim, and the oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway. Why don't I do the same thing? "The not smiling thing is clearly not worth discussing because it's ridiculous. If you have any other clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness, please provide them." The indications that they are the same man are very thin, and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out.

 

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

Of course. But it could be neither of them noticed, or it was thought that this was clue enough and there was no need to hammer it home even more. As it is, no satisfactory explanation for that little oddity has been provided. And if your theory cannot adequately explain all the relevant points and mine can, mine is better.

 

Certainly if, as he admits, he conceived of Gaidal/Olver as a red herring (based on only the minimalist of clues- ugliness and the disappearance of Cain) and was only surprised at how many people stuck to it, I cannot conceive that he really didn't expect that people wouldn't confuse Taim and Demandred (when he was leaving clues to show they were connected), esp when there was very little over books 6-8 that served to countradict that theory.

Except he didn't admit that. He admitted that Olver has a reason to be there besides being a red herring, but that's not to say he was intended as a red herring, merely that he ended up being one, intended or not.

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 So you can't explain an important discrepancy. One that shifts the most likely interpretation of the clues from Taim-is Demandred to Taim-is-Demandred's pawn.

 

No, I just already gave my reasons. I don't think the beard thing was that big of a deal, especially when there was a reasonable alternative.

 

Look, I have no trouble conceding a point that the evidence convinces me of. I think I've shown that in my previous posts. But in this case, I just think we have to disagree.

 

I think the best way to prove my point is this:

http://www.drosi.de/wot/wt_faq.htm

This is the WOT faq from 1996. So it was current up to LOC and COS. It presents every theory and discussion that had taken place over months and (in the case of LOC and previous books) years. It presents the best understanding that the most hardcore of fans online had concerning the WOT and its mysteries, prophecies and so on. 

 

Scroll to section 1.43 and the discussion of Taim. I reread that section to review. You'll notice that as of 1996, no discussion is made of the Minion-Taim theory. No connection between Demandred and Taim is made EXCEPT THAT Demandred IS TAIM!! Period. At most, the other alternative was that he might be a dark friend (63%) or that he and Demandred may have similar character traits (arrogance, not prone to smile, etc- certainly not unique in Randland). But no other connection between Demandred and Taim was noticed in 2 years of heated and fiercly debated discussion and use of books 6 and 7. None. And I will bet that if I track down the post-POD (1998) faq it won't show any minion-Taim theory either.

 

I think that puts paid to the the argument that by LOC and COS, Minion-Taim was a better alternative than Taimandred. Obviously, not everyone believe Taimandred. But NO ONE mentioned Minion-Taim. The consensus was he was either Demandred, Taim, or some other random forsaken (including Osangar at 1%).

 

The fact is, Minion-Taim only became the best (and next obvious theory) AFTER Taimandred had been debunked by both RJ's comments and WH. Then is when Minion-Taim was born (which can be seen in THIS faq from 2004- (post COT) http://web.archive.org/web/20040307160245/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html

 

Regarding Graendal's being the best suspect, again I refer you to that 1996 faq, section 1.11- Who killed JoaR? The 1996 WOT consensus placed Lanfear at 24% and Graendal at 1%.

 

Moreover, the view regarding WHY RJ kept things so underwraps could best be summed up here:

 

 

Despite RJ's comments to the contrary, it is not at all obvious who did the dirty deed. One question to ask ourselves is WHY is RJ keeping it a secret. The lack of action on that front in LOC pretty much demonstrates that the murder itself is NOT a major plot thread, so

there is no point in keeping it secret for the sake of keeping the reader in suspense. Some people feel that Asm's killing is itself a clue to something else that is going on, which we don't know about yet; something like the return of Lanfear or Ish or some other "dead" character, or that it is tied into the question of who Mazrim Taim _really_ is, and what he's really up to.

 

Bottom line, my interpretation and recollection of events and what was obvious AT THE TIME is as I have always stated. I was there. I know what people picked up on and what they didn't. I know what was obvious (without the benefit of hindsight or the later books.)

 

BTW, that FAQ is kind of funny to check out- to see what clues where picked up on and what weren't, what people thought might be important and what they missed. IT's pretty cool actually.

 

 

 

Except he didn't admit that. He admitted that Olver has a reason to be there besides being a red herring, but that's not to say he was intended as a red herring, merely that he ended up being one, intended or not.

I apologize if this seems to imply that I was saying that Olver on existed as a red herring. That is not what I meant. But if RJ was aware of the connection of Olver and Cain (and that that was also intended as a red herring, in addition to the plot elements he served) then it is inconceivable to me that he didn't, especially when writing Taim and Demandred in LOC and COS not know how what he was doing was going to be interpreted. The fact that NO CONNECTION between Taim and Demandred was picked up on EXCEPT FOR TAIMANDRED only serves to highlight this point.

Edited by Ian Ohlander

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Damandred

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

This right here. RJ had to have known what he was doing, either directly or indirectly. He can't have been surprised.

 

 

You failed to answer this.

 

 

Mr Ares;

No, I didn't. I said it's not at all a stretch to think that he might have overlooked Taimandred because he was busy laying the clues down in a different direction.

 

 

Reply

I dont mean to be pendantic, but just to be clear. Do you belive RJ really had no idea that fans would think Taim was Demandred at the end of writting LoC? Yes or No please.

 

Damamdred

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

 

Mr Ares

Well, what did he mean by them anyway? We know now that Taim isn't Demandred, so we know he wasn't speaking from direct knowledge. That means Demandred gave him a history lesson that he really took to heart, or that he heard the phrase and picked up on it despite not knowing the meaning, or he meant something else altogether. Interestingly, I just checked Ideal Seek for "so-called Aiel" - the first use is Taim's own in LoC11. That makes Taim the originator of the phrase, and if we are discussing the the point of view of up to LoC, and not after, then we cannot see this phrase as a link to the Chosen (who have never used it). As Aiel means "dedicated" and he's casting doubt on them ("who knows what these so-called Aiel will do?") the most obvious implication is that he's questioning their dedication. As for renegades, he's talking about the Siswai'aman. The people who have broken away from the mainstream Aiel. Thus, renegades.

 

 

Damandred

The fact is only the forsaken had ever referred to the Aiel as anthing other than Aiel. Cant remember exact quotes but i know Lanfear and Asmo do. Nobody else except Taim. So just because they didnt use the exact wording as Taim doesnt make the point less valid.

 

 

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

 

Mr Ares

Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat. It's an oddity about Taim, and the oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway. Why don't I do the same thing? "The not smiling thing is clearly not worth discussing because it's ridiculous. If you have any other clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness, please provide them." The indications that they are the same man are very thin, and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out.

 

 

 

 

Damandred

Sigh

The beard can be spun for and against. IMO it is more in favor of Taimandred. So i didnt want to debate it because i didnt want to flog a dead horse. It is even more ridiculous as its weighted against all the clues for Taimandred, which you say dont exist. I posted a quote for the smile a few pages back from rand and mesanna' pov's describing word for word Taim and Demandred being as close as ever, to smiling, but you just dismiss that and every other clue, as us plebs overstating things and seeing what we want, then come back to the silly beard thing.

 

 

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

 

 

Mr Ares

Of course. But it could be neither of them noticed, or it was thought that this was clue enough and there was no need to hammer it home even more. As it is, no satisfactory explanation for that little oddity has been provided. And if your theory cannot adequately explain all the relevant points and mine can, mine is better.

 

 

 

Damandred

Why did Perrin grow a beard? Did that have anything to do with the plot? Dannil aquiring polish? Min wearing pants?

Sometimes a shave is just a shave. And you say others overstate, ha. I dont explain it because it doesnt matter. Dismissing all the clues for Taimandred, then carting out this dead horse, doesnt adequately explain anything. Dont forget im not trying to prove Taimandred, we know that its not true. To use hindsight as a way of saying its obvious from the start, is nonsense. The only point im trying to make is IMO RJ knew people would think Taim was Demandred, it is a matter of opinion and cannot be proven or not.

Edited by damandred

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So you can't explain an important discrepancy. One that shifts the most likely interpretation of the clues from Taim-is Demandred to Taim-is-Demandred's pawn.

No, I just already gave my reasons. I don't think the beard thing was that big of a deal, especially when there was a reasonable alternative.

 

When I point out that a given point has an issue and you ignore and repost the exact same point that I just pointed out the issue with, what do you expect me to take away from that? That's not "giving your reasons", that's "ignoring inconvenient points".

 

Scroll to section 1.43 and the discussion of Taim. I reread that section to review. You'll notice that as of 1996, no discussion is made of the Minion-Taim theory. No connection between Demandred and Taim is made EXCEPT THAT Demandred IS TAIM!! Period. At most, the other alternative was that he might be a dark friend (63%) or that he and Demandred may have similar character traits (arrogance, not prone to smile, etc- certainly not unique in Randland). But no other connection between Demandred and Taim was noticed in 2 years of heated and fiercly debated discussion and use of books 6 and 7. None. And I will bet that if I track down the post-POD (1998) faq it won't show any minion-Taim theory either.

Except minion-Taim is the Taim is a Darkfriend theory. Also, don't mistake popularity for quality. The quality of an argument is not determined by popular vote. Even when I first read the then-current version of the FAQ, some of their arguments didn't convince. I've seen a lot of popular arguments that weren't entirely sound.

 

 

Despite RJ's comments to the contrary, it is not at all obvious who did the dirty deed. One question to ask ourselves is WHY is RJ keeping it a secret. The lack of action on that front in LOC pretty much demonstrates that the murder itself is NOT a major plot thread, so there is no point in keeping it secret for the sake of keeping the reader in suspense. Some people feel that Asm's killing is itself a clue to something else that is going on, which we don't know about yet; something like the return of Lanfear or Ish or some other "dead" character, or that it is tied into the question of who Mazrim Taim _really_ is, and what he's really up to.

 

This quite nicely illustrates my point - "some people feel" it's a part of something bigger. That sort of thinking distracted people. It goes on to say that one of the Chosen must have had a reason for keeping it a secret - which ignores that while no-one would condemn them for killing a traitor, none of them trust the others. They are not friends, they are rivals. So telling them about what you've done is not the default state, they need a reason to advertise it. Make a few faulty assumptions and you can change the field of suspects dramatically.

 

 

Except he didn't admit that. He admitted that Olver has a reason to be there besides being a red herring, but that's not to say he was intended as a red herring, merely that he ended up being one, intended or not.

I apologize if this seems to imply that I was saying that Olver on existed as a red herring. That is not what I meant. But if RJ was aware of the connection of Olver and Cain (and that that was also intended as a red herring, in addition to the plot elements he served) then it is inconceivable to me that he didn't, especially when writing Taim and Demandred in LOC and COS not know how what he was doing was going to be interpreted. The fact that NO CONNECTION between Taim and Demandred was picked up on EXCEPT FOR TAIMANDRED only serves to highlight this point.

 

My point is that he might only have been aware of the Olver/Cain connection after the fact.

 

Damandred

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

 

 

You failed to answer this.

 

 

Mr Ares;

No, I didn't. I said it's not at all a stretch to think that he might have overlooked Taimandred because he was busy laying the clues down in a different direction.

 

 

Reply

I dont mean to be pendantic, but just to be clear. Do you belive RJ really had no idea that fans would think Taim was Demandred at the end of writting LoC? Yes or No please.

A yes or no answer would be inappropriate. I don't know what was in RJ's mind at the time of writing. Nor do you. I think it is entirely possible that he didn't realise how alike they would appear to us, and felt he's left enough clues to point in the right direction.

 

Damamdred

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

 

Mr Ares

Well, what did he mean by them anyway? We know now that Taim isn't Demandred, so we know he wasn't speaking from direct knowledge. That means Demandred gave him a history lesson that he really took to heart, or that he heard the phrase and picked up on it despite not knowing the meaning, or he meant something else altogether. Interestingly, I just checked Ideal Seek for "so-called Aiel" - the first use is Taim's own in LoC11. That makes Taim the originator of the phrase, and if we are discussing the the point of view of up to LoC, and not after, then we cannot see this phrase as a link to the Chosen (who have never used it). As Aiel means "dedicated" and he's casting doubt on them ("who knows what these so-called Aiel will do?") the most obvious implication is that he's questioning their dedication. As for renegades, he's talking about the Siswai'aman. The people who have broken away from the mainstream Aiel. Thus, renegades.

 

 

Damandred

The fact is only the forsaken had ever referred to the Aiel as anthing other than Aiel. Cant remember exact quotes but i know Lanfear and Asmo do. Nobody else except Taim. So just because they didnt use the exact wording as Taim doesnt make the point less valid.

I think you need to find that quote.

 

 

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

 

Mr Ares

Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat. It's an oddity about Taim, and the oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway. Why don't I do the same thing? "The not smiling thing is clearly not worth discussing because it's ridiculous. If you have any other clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness, please provide them." The indications that they are the same man are very thin, and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out.

 

 

Damandred

Sigh

The beard can be spun for and against. IMO it is more in favor of Taimandred. So i didnt want to debate it because i didnt want to flog a dead horse. It is even more ridiculous as its weighted against all the clues for Taimandred, which you say dont exist. I posted a quote for the smile a few pages back from rand and mesanna' pov's describing word for word Taim and Demandred being as close as ever, to smiling, but you just dismiss that and every other clue, as us plebs overstating things and seeing what we want, then come back to the silly beard thing.

The point is that I don't see how it can be spun for Taimandred. There are a number of clues that can point either way, but this isn't one of them. It's a curiosity that no answer has been provided for. Note that I never said the clues for Taimandred don't exist, I said the similarities between Taim and specifically Demandred were minimal - not smiling being just about the whole of it - and that most of the clues can be interpreted multiple ways. But if you add the clues that weigh against Taimandred against the ones for it and leave out the ones that work for either side, against is stronger. If you disagree, please provide the clues which work purely for Taimandred, not for other theories. I will also point out with regards to the non-smiling that your initial point was phrased so as to emphasise a difference in the mannerism, which I pointed out to you. I did not further pursue the point when the quote was provided, because the quote showed a greater degree of similarity than your words did. Thus my point was never that the two mannerisms were different, merely that your argument supported them being different. You didn't refute that, you changed your argument. Strawman and moving the goalposts are logical fallacies.

 

 

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

 

 

Mr Ares

Of course. But it could be neither of them noticed, or it was thought that this was clue enough and there was no need to hammer it home even more. As it is, no satisfactory explanation for that little oddity has been provided. And if your theory cannot adequately explain all the relevant points and mine can, mine is better.

 

 

 

Damandred

Why did Perrin grow a beard? Did that have anything to do with the plot? Dannil aquiring polish? Min wearing pants?

Sometimes a shave is just a shave. And you say others overstate, ha. I dont explain it because it doesnt matter. Dismissing all the clues for Taimandred, then carting out this dead horse, doesnt adequately explain anything. Dont forget im not trying to prove Taimandred, we know that its not true. To use hindsight as a way of saying its obvious from the start, is nonsense. The only point im trying to make is IMO RJ knew people would think Taim was Demandred, it is a matter of opinion and cannot be proven or not.

Not everything has to do with plot (you will note that I didn't say that they do). Some things have to do with character, or scene setting, or other things. If it serves no purpose at all, it shouldn't be there. It's a well known literary principle. A shave might be just a shave - but Bashere casts doubt on Taim's identity, causing Taim to prove he is who he says he is. The only explanation offered is he shaved due to the heat, but this is mockery, and we can say with reasonable certainty that is not intended to be taken as the genuine reason - after all, said scene also notes that Taim is untouched by the heat. And I have never lost sight of the fact you're not trying to prove Taimandred. I know exactly what you are saying.

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Shaving simply could of been to try and hide who he was.  After all he had the white tower and Saldea after him and he was alone, so a saldean beard would of made him stand out more.  Another reason that should of disproved the Taim was Demandred theory was that Osan'gar as put in the BT.  If Demandred had been Taim there was no reason nto put another forsaken there.  Was there some things that were the same between Taim and Dem, yes.  Neither one liked to be second best and thought they were superior to LTT/Rand.  In the end a few things imo should of disproved the Taimadred theory.

 

1. Dem would never of turned over a seal to the DO prison to Rand.  We know it was real because later someone was trying to find it and steal it from Bashere.

2. Dem would be unlikely to play second fiddle to LTT again which is what he would of been had he been Taim.

3. Dem might of killed Rand as soon as he saw him.

4. Its hard to impersonate a person, the reason Asan'gar didn't pretend to be the Aes Sedai and simply chose to say she was her secretary.  Mesana had to pick a Aes Sedai that had very few friends and was a loner.  Dem killing and impersonating Taim would of cared big risks.

5.  An later on finding out Osan'gar was a forsaken, again would of been no need to of placed him in the BT if Dem was already running it. 

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When I point out that a given point has an issue and you ignore and repost the exact same point that I just pointed out the issue with, what do you expect me to take away from that? That's not "giving your reasons", that's "ignoring inconvenient points".

No, what that means is that I made my arguments, you made yours, I responded with mine, you with yours, until we are now just repeating ourselves. That doesn't interest me. I don't agree with your conclusion or that this is that big of deal.

 

 

Mr Ares, on 20 Feb 2014 - 08:43 AM, said: Except minion-Taim is the Taim is a Darkfriend theory. Also, don't mistake popularity for quality. The quality of an argument is not determined by popular vote. Even when I first read the then-current version of the FAQ, some of their arguments didn't convince. I've seen a lot of popular arguments that weren't entirely sound.

Nope. You are now changing definitions. Minion-Taim is not DF Taim. Otherwise, Elza is a proxy for Demandred since she is a DF. Paitr (from EOTW and LOC) was a proxy for Demandred, since he was a DF.

 

Minion-Taim states that Taim was a minion of Demandred and was acting as his proxy and under his general orders. The connection between Taim and Demandred was because Taim was working for Demandred. Demandred, through his use of the proxy Taim, was responsible for carrying out the DO's orders in LOC. All of which is in fact what was actually happening.

 

I am not so foolish as to equate popularity with quality. Nor are the arguments in any WOT faq immune to criticism. I myself disagreed with points in it. However, the faq endeavored to be as comprehensive and inclusive as possible. It was not meant to be the final say in truth matters (esp since we all knew that RJ said the faq was 1/3 wrong at any given time.)

 

Instead, the faq was (and is) the best representation of the current state of understanding among the most ardent and devoted of wot,  the state-of-the-debate at that time. No theories or ideas got into the faq without having been the subject of extensive discussion and heated debate- as good as any you'd see on dragonmount or theoryland. The RJ newsgroup was the primary place, back in the mid-90s for fans to debate Rj's work in detail. The editors of RJ World of WOT were regular participants in the newsgroup (Patrick and Theresa Nielsen Hayden.) The proper way to look at it is the faq only included theories that were subjected to "peer-review". (see http://web.archive.org/web/20040428075951/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.02_one-third.html)

 

So I do not use the historical faq as a popularity tool to indicate truth.

 

You are the one claiming that Minion-Taim was far more viable and clear back at the time of LOC and COS and POD.

 

That is wrong. The faq's of those time periods make it clear that minion-Taim was not a gleam in anyone's eye. It was not debated back then.

 

Look again at the 96 faq.

Look at the 99 faq, current for POD, The world of Rj's WOT, New Spring novella and the Strike at Shayol Ghul, (incidently, this is also true in the faqs all the way to 2003, which were current for WH as well, sans the RJ comment that killed the theory.)

ftp://linuxmafia.com/pub/jordan/wot-cos.FAQ

We have, again, only 3 possibilities noticed by hardcore fans.

 

The idea is that the BA, or a Forsaken, or some Trollocs, broke Taim free from where he was being held in Saldaea. They took him to Semirhage, or someone else who could extract every bit of information from his skull (a la the AS Cabriana who Semirhage tortures) and drained him dry. Then they killed him. Demandred either 1) Looks kind of like Taim in the first place, or 2) Looks very different from Taim and is using an illusion (or maybe some kind of partial illusion) to look like the real Taim. This is why Bashere isn't sure that MT is Taim, and why MT says that he shaved his beard. This also explains why it is MT who brings up the things only he and Bashere know--to convince everybody that he is Taim.

 

Then again, MT may really be the original Mazrim Taim. The reason we think of Demandred when we see him is not because he is Demandred, but because he is similar to Demandred in personality--he wanted to be the Dragon, he doesn't like being second-best, etc. Taim could have the ultimate plan of supporting Rand as much as he can, helping him to win the Last Battle. Since Rand is expected to die in the Last Battle, Taim plans to bide his time and take control in the aftermath. After that, well, as MT says, the winners write the histories.

 

Finally, there is the possibility that there never was a "real" Taim; only Demandred. The first mention of Taim is at the beginning of TGH [TGH: 5, The Shadow in Shienar, 55], and "trouble in Saldaea" is mentioned in TEOTW. At that point, at least some of the other Forsaken are loose, so it is possible that Demandred was, too. We don't know enough about the timing of events to decide for sure.

 

Oh, and Taim=Osangar is thrown in as a sort of looney theory because it was debated at least by a few.

 

So I ask you, why did none of fandom piece the evidence together properly? Why did we not take Sammael's proxy statement, combine them with Demandred/Taim similarities, and then add in Demandred's evident involvement in what went down in LOC and not come up with Minion-Taim? Do you think, had you been among the discussion back then (and I am increasingly certain that you weren't reading these books back then), you would have been arguing Minion-Taim, when no one else was?.

 

Do you not think this might be a case of hindsight being 20/20? See, the beauty of arm-chair quarterbacking and hindsight is that you have the advantage in knowing what mattered and what didn't. So you can give Sammael's proxy statement EXACTLY the weight it should have...because you already know it is right. You can try logically explain away "so-called Aiel" as an indicator of a show-offy 3rd ager trying to speak like he knows something...because you know that Taim evidently had been trained by Demandred and that's where he learned that kind of stuff. You can deduce that Demandred would never have tried to be "under" Rand....because you know that he never did.

 

You do not speak as a person guessing based on limited information. You speak as a person trying to restrict what evidence he has to prove what he already knows from a larger pool of evidence, able to mentally throw out or minimize information or evidence you already know means nothing.

 

Don't you find it curious that up to POD, no mention is made of Minion-Taim in the faq? Instead, Taim is either Demandred or is working primarily for himself?

 

And then, the moment WH presents some (very debatable- see http://web.archive.org/web/20031210122826/http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html 3: The battle of Shadar Logoth) evidence that Taimandred is false and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, RJ speaks and rejects Taimandred completely in January of 2003 (in the same way that "Sammael was toast" ended speculation he had faked his death and was the mysterious Chosen commanding Slayer- 99 faq 1.1.5), then, and ONLY THEN does Minion-Taim spring into being (the 2004 faq I linked earlier).

 

Why do you think that is? Isn't it possible that when RJ completely closed the door on that theory, we were forced to reexamine all the evidence and finally- finally- were able to see that while Taim wasn't Demandred they were clearly related. And then- then- is when Sammael's proxy statement takes on new meaning. Suddenly, we see the way to reconcile Demandred's apparent importance to the plot of  LOC with his not actually being Taim. Suddenly, Minion-Taim explains it all. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040225090546/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.01_intro.html sections 1.1.5, 1.5.6, and 1.4.10)

 

But Minion-Taim only became something people thought of once RJ said he couldn't be Demandred. Up till then, any Demandred/Taim connection was seen as proof that they were the same person.

 

Does that not make sense to you? Or do you still insist that you would have seen it from the beginning, that Minion-Taim was obvious from the start?

 

Mr Ares, on 20 Feb 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:This quite nicely illustrates my point - "some people feel" it's a part of something bigger. That sort of thinking distracted people. It goes on to say that one of the Chosen must have had a reason for keeping it a secret - which ignores that while no-one would condemn them for killing a traitor, none of them trust the others. They are not friends, they are rivals. So telling them about what you've done is not the default state, they need a reason to advertise it. Make a few faulty assumptions and you can change the field of suspects dramatically.

You need to read this again. The argument wasn't made that the Chosen didn't tell anyone whether or not they had killed Asmo. No one was under the delusion that they were besties and sharing the latest gossip with each other. All the forsaken socials they had were like a sea of armed camps. The point being made is why is RJ keeping this such a secret? Why wast his something to be cagey about? So immediately we tried to figure out why? And the fact that this continued on, book after book, until long after RJ's death only seemed to highlight this issue more and more. Why was he being so secretive about it unless it was important?

 

Because he decided he liked messing with us. Like Graendal was obvious, as of LOC:

INTERVIEW: Oct 22nd, 1994

 LOC Signing Report - Roxanne (Paraphrased)

ROBERT JORDAN

At one point, RJ raised his voice to scold his wife, "No! No hints! They can figure it out!" She was grinning, apparently not chagrined at all. But she did stop saying any more at that point. This leads me to believe that Mr. Jordan enjoys immensely weaving the puzzle, as much as writing the book.

He repeatedly reassured us that we have all the clues we need to figure out who killed Asmodean.

Again, at the time, we had a pretty large field of potential subjects. RJ knew it and let everyone stew. He had his fun.

 

He knew that people would see the Guidal/Olver connection and that it was a (at least slight) red-herring

 

 

 No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

 

In view of the previous, I will again state that Taimandred was the clearest and most viable of theories back when LOC, COS, and POD were out. It incorporated all the evidence, had the fewest reasons to question it, and made the most thematic sense. That is a matter of historical record. It is a fact. The only reason Minion-Taim became a theory is because RJ killed Taimandred.

Edited by Ian Ohlander

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Ah, finally done reading all this. I forget to visit the forum for a couple of weeks and you guys resurrect a Taim discussion. Sad panda. :(

 

Something I picked up along the conversation was the (moot) possibility of Taim having been Demandred all along... I always thought the "trouble in Saldaea" which is mentioned already in EotW was referring to Taim, which would be far too early for Demandred to be out and about.

 

Demandred was responsible for Taim - he freed him and sent him to Rand. So yes, he was responsible for that whole episode, and the DO's pleasure likely was from the Black Tower set-up. 

 

Is this confirmed or just a very likely way for it to have happened? Not trying to stir anything here; I've just been trying to hunt down anything "canon" on Taim's timeline for YEARS because I must admit that I'm quite fond of my own interpretation (in which Taim is recruited by Demandred some time after Dumai's Wells) but with the Shara stuff it's looking more unlikely than I'd like to admit.

 

Personally, I think the surface similarities were intentional - both in and out of the world - from RJ using it as a red-herring (which he didn't think people would believe so much) and intentional from Demandred as is his wont to use proxies and misdirect attention. Having a man that looks similar - but not enough that Lews Therin recognizes him, after all, Rand can recognize the faces of the Forsaken (granted, I'm not sure if he could do in LoC) - would make more sense.

 

You know, I've thought long and hard about LTT's instant hatecrush on Taim, because it's the thing that a lot of people cite when they say that they "knew instantly" that Taim had to be a Darkfriend. Because... LTT has a Darkfriend-radar since when..? (Dashiva, anyone? LTT hadn't a clue.) Eventually I explained it to myself as Taim having just enough physical resemblance to Demandred to set off the rage-mode. (Better than being annoyed at a bad plot device.)

Edited by NeverTame

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1. It is from a quote from Brandon saying a forsaken freed him and Demandred's PoV in aMoL confirming he was the one to do it. I did post the quotes somewhere in this thread. I believe the situation was something like Demandred showed up and gave Taim the option of being freed and becoming a Darkfriend or staying captured. 

 

2. The rage at Taim isn't really new. I think a lot is blow out of proportion. Lews Therin does it to all male channelers. Remember that Taim was the first non-forsaken (well, at the time anyway) male channeler he had seen. Lews Therin went crazy etc.. but we see in later books that Lews Therin does it for EVERY Asha'man, including the good ones like Narishma, Flinn, Hopwil etc.. 

I think the fact that Taim was the first set people's suspicions, when it really was something Lews Therin just did all along. 

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Hello, thank you, Barid! :)

 

I wasn't clear enough in my question number one, it appears. I'm aware of the Sanderson quote and the AMoL passage, both of which state that Taim was recruited by a Forsaken/Demandred after they were out of the Bore. (I have both pretty much memorised and I quote them at regular intervals to muppets who are still convinced that Taim must have been a Darkfriend for half his life. I may or may not be slightly obsessed with the case. Apologies.)

 

What I was after was whether we have anything more specific on when it happened. As in, whether it was definitely before he went to Caemlyn.

 

As for the other thing, I still thought the reaction to Taim was more extreme than anything the other Asha'man ever got... but fair enough. I'll take that.

Edited by NeverTame

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What I was after was whether we have anything more specific on when it happened. As in, whether it was definitely before he went to Caemlyn.

 

Well if Dem was the one that freed him from the AS it had to be before Caemlyn.

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Anyone know where to find the quote of BS saying it was Dem who freed Taim from the Aes Sedai? 

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@ Mr Ares

 

 

Damandred

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

 

 

You failed to answer this.

 

 

Mr Ares;

No, I didn't. I said it's not at all a stretch to think that he might have overlooked Taimandred because he was busy laying the clues down in a different direction.

 

 

Reply

I dont mean to be pendantic, but just to be clear. Do you belive RJ really had no idea that fans would think Taim was Demandred at the end of writting LoC? Yes or No please.

 

 

Mr Ares

A yes or no answer would be inappropriate. I don't know what was in RJ's mind at the time of writing. Nor do you. I think it is entirely possible that he didn't realise how alike they would appear to us, and felt he's left enough clues to point in the right direction.

 

 

Damandred reply

I dont see what is inappropriate about giving your opinion on a matter central to what we,ve been discussing. I am not asking for his exact thoughts on the matter, im well aware you cant give them. Other people have gave their opinion, you just seem to be dodging the question.

 

 

Damamdred

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

 

Mr Ares

Well, what did he mean by them anyway? We know now that Taim isn't Demandred, so we know he wasn't speaking from direct knowledge. That means Demandred gave him a history lesson that he really took to heart, or that he heard the phrase and picked up on it despite not knowing the meaning, or he meant something else altogether. Interestingly, I just checked Ideal Seek for "so-called Aiel" - the first use is Taim's own in LoC11. That makes Taim the originator of the phrase, and if we are discussing the the point of view of up to LoC, and not after, then we cannot see this phrase as a link to the Chosen (who have never used it). As Aiel means "dedicated" and he's casting doubt on them ("who knows what these so-called Aiel will do?") the most obvious implication is that he's questioning their dedication. As for renegades, he's talking about the Siswai'aman. The people who have broken away from the mainstream Aiel. Thus, renegades.

 

 

Damandred

The fact is only the forsaken had ever referred to the Aiel as anthing other than Aiel. Cant remember exact quotes but i know Lanfear and Asmo do. Nobody else except Taim. So just because they didnt use the exact wording as Taim doesnt make the point less valid.

 

Mr Ares

I think you need to find that quote.

 

Damandred reply

I was mistaken, i was remembering lanfears slap a da' shain comment wrong, she says these Aiel.

Morridin calls them so called in CoS and Taimandred is still on at that point, but as we were speaking exclusively about LoC i will concede the point.

 

 

Damandred

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

 

Mr Ares

Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat. It's an oddity about Taim, and the oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway. Why don't I do the same thing? "The not smiling thing is clearly not worth discussing because it's ridiculous. If you have any other clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness, please provide them." The indications that they are the same man are very thin, and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out.

 

 

Damandred

Sigh

The beard can be spun for and against. IMO it is more in favor of Taimandred. So i didnt want to debate it because i didnt want to flog a dead horse. It is even more ridiculous as its weighted against all the clues for Taimandred, which you say dont exist. I posted a quote for the smile a few pages back from rand and mesanna' pov's describing word for word Taim and Demandred being as close as ever, to smiling, but you just dismiss that and every other clue, as us plebs overstating things and seeing what we want, then come back to the silly beard thing.

 

Mr Ares

The point is that I don't see how it can be spun for Taimandred. There are a number of clues that can point either way, but this isn't one of them. It's a curiosity that no answer has been provided for. Note that I never said the clues for Taimandred don't exist, I said the similarities between Taim and specifically Demandred were minimal - not smiling being just about the whole of it - and that most of the clues can be interpreted multiple ways. But if you add the clues that weigh against Taimandred against the ones for it and leave out the ones that work for either side, against is stronger. If you disagree, please provide the clues which work purely for Taimandred, not for other theories. I will also point out with regards to the non-smiling that your initial point was phrased so as to emphasise a difference in the mannerism, which I pointed out to you. I did not further pursue the point when the quote was provided, because the quote showed a greater degree of similarity than your words did. Thus my point was never that the two mannerisms were different, merely that your argument supported them being different. You didn't refute that, you changed your argument. Strawman and moving the goalposts are logical fallacies.

 

Damandred reply

I will not got list all the Taimandred points against all the not Taimandred, as there is only one against, the beard, and that could be argued that, Demandred didnt want unnecessary complications on a mirrior of mist illusion. You are right in HINDSIGHT you can explain most of Taimandred, though the so called, Aiel comment is still odd in whatever context, it was said, i dont see how i was trying to point out different mannerisms in the smile thing, as it would be counter productive to the point i was trying to make. I was pointing out a word for word disciption by two different characters about Taim and Demandred smiling. I wrongly said " almost" when i should of said " as close as ever" it was a honest mistake and not moving goal posts.

As i have said the silmilaries between Taimandand can now be explained but as of LoC they couldnt. Thrown together with Demandreds scenes at the beginning and end of the book, i will say again for the umpteenth time Taimandred is a logical conclusion and one RJ must of saw. The beard thing IMO just adds weight to it and your attitude that its a major clue against, and everyone else is just too dumb to see it, is a little insulting. I dont doubt you were never convinced by Taimandred, and bully for you for your insight, but RJ was too canny to miss it and too good a writer to have done it by accident, that is my honest opinion on the matter, a opinion you wont give because of some mythical impropriety.

 

 

Damandred

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

 

 

Mr Ares

Of course. But it could be neither of them noticed, or it was thought that this was clue enough and there was no need to hammer it home even more. As it is, no satisfactory explanation for that little oddity has been provided. And if your theory cannot adequately explain all the relevant points and mine can, mine is better.

 

 

 

Damandred

Why did Perrin grow a beard? Did that have anything to do with the plot? Dannil aquiring polish? Min wearing pants?

Sometimes a shave is just a shave. And you say others overstate, ha. I dont explain it because it doesnt matter. Dismissing all the clues for Taimandred, then carting out this dead horse, doesnt adequately explain anything. Dont forget im not trying to prove Taimandred, we know that its not true. To use hindsight as a way of saying its obvious from the start, is nonsense. The only point im trying to make is IMO RJ knew people would think Taim was Demandred, it is a matter of opinion and cannot be proven or not.

 

 

Mr Ares

Not everything has to do with plot (you will note that I didn't say that they do). Some things have to do with character, or scene setting, or other things. If it serves no purpose at all, it shouldn't be there. It's a well known literary principle. A shave might be just a shave - but Bashere casts doubt on Taim's identity, causing Taim to prove he is who he says he is. The only explanation offered is he shaved due to the heat, but this is mockery, and we can say with reasonable certainty that is not intended to be taken as the genuine reason - after all, said scene also notes that Taim is untouched by the heat. And I have never lost sight of the fact you're not trying to prove Taimandred. I know exactly what you are saying.

 

 

Damandred reply

Gone over the beard thing. Why wouldnt Demandred use mockery, it wouldnt have been to difficult for Demandred to convince Bashere, its not like Bashere and Taim were close. Frankly it makes more sense for Demandred to laugh Basheres question away because he couldnt of said " well you see, im wearing this mirrior of mist.." were Taim can just say, " i didnt want to be reconized by your thugs".

Edited by damandred

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What I was after was whether we have anything more specific on when it happened. As in, whether it was definitely before he went to Caemlyn.

 

Well if Dem was the one that freed him from the AS it had to be before Caemlyn.

 

 

...This is precisely what I'm trying to find out; do we know for a fact that Demandred was behind the rescue.

 

But yeah, I'm probably just trying to will my pet theory into being possible still even though the above is much more likely. Don't mind me. x)

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I am with you NeverTame, I would like to see when BS or RJ said Dem was behind Taim escaping.  It seems so far like people are using Dem recruiting Taim to mean Dem freed him.

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When I point out that a given point has an issue and you ignore and repost the exact same point that I just pointed out the issue with, what do you expect me to take away from that? That's not "giving your reasons", that's "ignoring inconvenient points".

No, what that means is that I made my arguments, you made yours, I responded with mine, you with yours, until we are now just repeating ourselves. That doesn't interest me. I don't agree with your conclusion or that this is that big of deal.

 

Except I'm talking about an argument you didn't respond to, and pretended (more than once) hadn't been made. Sort of like what you're doing right now.

 

 

Mr Ares, on 20 Feb 2014 - 08:43 AM, said: Except minion-Taim is the Taim is a Darkfriend theory. Also, don't mistake popularity for quality. The quality of an argument is not determined by popular vote. Even when I first read the then-current version of the FAQ, some of their arguments didn't convince. I've seen a lot of popular arguments that weren't entirely sound.

Nope. You are now changing definitions. Minion-Taim is not DF Taim. Otherwise, Elza is a proxy for Demandred since she is a DF. Paitr (from EOTW and LOC) was a proxy for Demandred, since he was a DF.

 

Context matters - neither Elza nor Paitr have anything to do with Taimandred. Minion Taim and DF Taim have, of necessity, a significant amount of overlap. After all, minion is a subset of DF in this context.

 

I am not so foolish as to equate popularity with quality. Nor are the arguments in any WOT faq immune to criticism. I myself disagreed with points in it. However, the faq endeavored to be as comprehensive and inclusive as possible. It was not meant to be the final say in truth matters (esp since we all knew that RJ said the faq was 1/3 wrong at any given time.)

 

Instead, the faq was (and is) the best representation of the current state of understanding among the most ardent and devoted of wot,  the state-of-the-debate at that time. No theories or ideas got into the faq without having been the subject of extensive discussion and heated debate- as good as any you'd see on dragonmount or theoryland. The RJ newsgroup was the primary place, back in the mid-90s for fans to debate Rj's work in detail. The editors of RJ World of WOT were regular participants in the newsgroup (Patrick and Theresa Nielsen Hayden.) The proper way to look at it is the faq only included theories that were subjected to "peer-review". (see http://web.archive.org/web/20040428075951/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.02_one-third.html)

 

So I do not use the historical faq as a popularity tool to indicate truth.

 

You are the one claiming that Minion-Taim was far more viable and clear back at the time of LOC and COS and POD.

 

That is wrong. The faq's of those time periods make it clear that minion-Taim was not a gleam in anyone's eye. It was not debated back then.

Which would be an indicator of popularity. Not of its quality as a theory.

So I ask you, why did none of fandom piece the evidence together properly? Why did we not take Sammael's proxy statement, combine them with Demandred/Taim similarities, and then add in Demandred's evident involvement in what went down in LOC and not come up with Minion-Taim? Do you think, had you been among the discussion back then (and I am increasingly certain that you weren't reading these books back then), you would have been arguing Minion-Taim, when no one else was?.

Fandom is often blinded. We pick up on certain clues, miss others, put them together wrong, make connections we have no reason to, or fail to make the ones we should. And it has certainly been the case that inconvenient dissenting voices get shouted down. What was the solution for the beard thing back then? Did anyone mention that point? Was a solution offered? I've seen a lot of theories put forward, more than I would have come up with by myself. While most of those were poorly thought through and badly argued, I have to say that I have had my mind changed by sufficiently good arguments. Thus, I can conclude that it is quite possible I could have been convinced that Taimandred-is untrue was, if not true, then at least not false.

 

Why do you think that is? Isn't it possible that when RJ completely closed the door on that theory, we were forced to reexamine all the evidence and finally- finally- were able to see that while Taim wasn't Demandred they were clearly related. And then- then- is when Sammael's proxy statement takes on new meaning. Suddenly, we see the way to reconcile Demandred's apparent importance to the plot of  LOC with his not actually being Taim. Suddenly, Minion-Taim explains it all. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040225090546/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.01_intro.html sections 1.1.5, 1.5.6, and 1.4.10)

 

But Minion-Taim only became something people thought of once RJ said he couldn't be Demandred. Up till then, any Demandred/Taim connection was seen as proof that they were the same person.

Precisely my point - fandom was blinded. The evidence was accepted is being correctly interpreted in a certain light, and it is only once the established orthodoxy was overthrown that things could be looked at in the correct light.

 

 

Mr Ares, on 20 Feb 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:This quite nicely illustrates my point - "some people feel" it's a part of something bigger. That sort of thinking distracted people. It goes on to say that one of the Chosen must have had a reason for keeping it a secret - which ignores that while no-one would condemn them for killing a traitor, none of them trust the others. They are not friends, they are rivals. So telling them about what you've done is not the default state, they need a reason to advertise it. Make a few faulty assumptions and you can change the field of suspects dramatically.

You need to read this again. The argument wasn't made that the Chosen didn't tell anyone whether or not they had killed Asmo. No one was under the delusion that they were besties and sharing the latest gossip with each other. All the forsaken socials they had were like a sea of armed camps. The point being made is why is RJ keeping this such a secret? Why wast his something to be cagey about? So immediately we tried to figure out why? And the fact that this continued on, book after book, until long after RJ's death only seemed to highlight this issue more and more. Why was he being so secretive about it unless it was important?

 

"Now, we are not the only ones ignorant of the culprit. All of the characters (except one, obviously) are also ignorant of whodunnit (if they're Forsakens), or of what actually happenned (if they're Good Guys or rank-and-file DFs). So, if

one of the surviving Forsaken killed Asm, they must have a reason for hiding it. After all, it's not like anybody would condemn them for punishing a traitor." Turns out I don't need to reread, you do.

 

In view of the previous, I will again state that Taimandred was the clearest and most viable of theories back when LOC, COS, and POD were out. It incorporated all the evidence, had the fewest reasons to question it, and made the most thematic sense. That is a matter of historical record. It is a fact. The only reason Minion-Taim became a theory is because RJ killed Taimandred.

Except Taimandred doesn't explain all the evidence. Saying that hindsight is 20/20 doesn't change that - it just means that with hindsight we can see now the clues that Taimandred didn't answer. Thus the only thing which is a matter of historical record was that Taimandred was a popular theory - that doesn't mean it was the best. Minion Taim did a better job than Taimandred of explaining the evidence, had fewer reasons to question it, and made more thematic sense. But it didn't gain as much traction as Taimandred.

 

@ Mr Ares

 

 

Damandred

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

 

 

You failed to answer this.

 

 

Mr Ares;

No, I didn't. I said it's not at all a stretch to think that he might have overlooked Taimandred because he was busy laying the clues down in a different direction.

 

 

Reply

I dont mean to be pendantic, but just to be clear. Do you belive RJ really had no idea that fans would think Taim was Demandred at the end of writting LoC? Yes or No please.

 

 

Mr Ares

A yes or no answer would be inappropriate. I don't know what was in RJ's mind at the time of writing. Nor do you. I think it is entirely possible that he didn't realise how alike they would appear to us, and felt he's left enough clues to point in the right direction.

 

 

Damandred reply

I dont see what is inappropriate about giving your opinion on a matter central to what we,ve been discussing. I am not asking for his exact thoughts on the matter, im well aware you cant give them. Other people have gave their opinion, you just seem to be dodging the question.

I didn't say giving my opinion would be inappropriate, I said giving it as a yes or no would be. I have given my answer. My answer isn't a simple yes or no because I can't honestly answer the question you have asked with a simple yes or no. If you want a yes or no answer, ask a different question. I've already offered an accurate answer to this one. It is entirely possible RJ didn't pick up on Taimandred, or thought he'd put in enough to stop that being the dominant theory.

 

 

Damamdred

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

 

Mr Ares

Well, what did he mean by them anyway? We know now that Taim isn't Demandred, so we know he wasn't speaking from direct knowledge. That means Demandred gave him a history lesson that he really took to heart, or that he heard the phrase and picked up on it despite not knowing the meaning, or he meant something else altogether. Interestingly, I just checked Ideal Seek for "so-called Aiel" - the first use is Taim's own in LoC11. That makes Taim the originator of the phrase, and if we are discussing the the point of view of up to LoC, and not after, then we cannot see this phrase as a link to the Chosen (who have never used it). As Aiel means "dedicated" and he's casting doubt on them ("who knows what these so-called Aiel will do?") the most obvious implication is that he's questioning their dedication. As for renegades, he's talking about the Siswai'aman. The people who have broken away from the mainstream Aiel. Thus, renegades.

 

 

Damandred

The fact is only the forsaken had ever referred to the Aiel as anthing other than Aiel. Cant remember exact quotes but i know Lanfear and Asmo do. Nobody else except Taim. So just because they didnt use the exact wording as Taim doesnt make the point less valid.

 

Mr Ares

I think you need to find that quote.

 

Damandred reply

I was mistaken, i was remembering lanfears slap a da' shain comment wrong, she says these Aiel.

Morridin calls them so called in CoS and Taimandred is still on at that point, but as we were speaking exclusively about LoC i will concede the point.

Thank you.

 

 

Damandred

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

 

Mr Ares

Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat. It's an oddity about Taim, and the oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway. Why don't I do the same thing? "The not smiling thing is clearly not worth discussing because it's ridiculous. If you have any other clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness, please provide them." The indications that they are the same man are very thin, and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out.

 

 

Damandred

Sigh

The beard can be spun for and against. IMO it is more in favor of Taimandred. So i didnt want to debate it because i didnt want to flog a dead horse. It is even more ridiculous as its weighted against all the clues for Taimandred, which you say dont exist. I posted a quote for the smile a few pages back from rand and mesanna' pov's describing word for word Taim and Demandred being as close as ever, to smiling, but you just dismiss that and every other clue, as us plebs overstating things and seeing what we want, then come back to the silly beard thing.

 

Mr Ares

The point is that I don't see how it can be spun for Taimandred. There are a number of clues that can point either way, but this isn't one of them. It's a curiosity that no answer has been provided for. Note that I never said the clues for Taimandred don't exist, I said the similarities between Taim and specifically Demandred were minimal - not smiling being just about the whole of it - and that most of the clues can be interpreted multiple ways. But if you add the clues that weigh against Taimandred against the ones for it and leave out the ones that work for either side, against is stronger. If you disagree, please provide the clues which work purely for Taimandred, not for other theories. I will also point out with regards to the non-smiling that your initial point was phrased so as to emphasise a difference in the mannerism, which I pointed out to you. I did not further pursue the point when the quote was provided, because the quote showed a greater degree of similarity than your words did. Thus my point was never that the two mannerisms were different, merely that your argument supported them being different. You didn't refute that, you changed your argument. Strawman and moving the goalposts are logical fallacies.

 

Damandred reply

I will not got list all the Taimandred points against all the not Taimandred, as there is only one against, the beard, and that could be argued that, Demandred didnt want unnecessary complications on a mirrior of mist illusion. You are right in HINDSIGHT you can explain most of Taimandred, though the so called, Aiel comment is still odd in whatever context, it was said, i dont see how i was trying to point out different mannerisms in the smile thing, as it would be counter productive to the point i was trying to make. I was pointing out a word for word disciption by two different characters about Taim and Demandred smiling. I wrongly said " almost" when i should of said " as close as ever" it was a honest mistake and not moving goal posts.

As i have said the silmilaries between Taimandand can now be explained but as of LoC they couldnt. Thrown together with Demandreds scenes at the beginning and end of the book, i will say again for the umpteenth time Taimandred is a logical conclusion and one RJ must of saw. The beard thing IMO just adds weight to it and your attitude that its a major clue against, and everyone else is just too dumb to see it, is a little insulting. I dont doubt you were never convinced by Taimandred, and bully for you for your insight, but RJ was too canny to miss it and too good a writer to have done it by accident, that is my honest opinion on the matter, a opinion you wont give because of some mythical impropriety.

There are two anti-Taimandred points as of LoC. There is one pro-Taimandred point as of LoC. There are several neutral points (that is, they can be argued for either side) as of LoC. If I have two and you have one, who has more evidence? I do. If your evidence is easily explained by pointing out that the two could easily share a mannerism, but my evidence cannot be explained away quite so simply, whose evidence is stronger? Mine. You weren't trying to point out different mannerisms. You did anyway - you made a point opposed to the one you wanted to make, due to poor wording. When you actually provided a quote, I didn't contest the point.

Actually, the evidence could be explained as of LoC. People didn't necessarily pick up on the correct pieces of evidence, or didn't put them together correctly, but all points can be explained as of that book. And I have already admitted there was evidence for Taimandred. Whether RJ would have picked up on it on his own is due to too much knowledge - he knows what things are meant to signify. He knows all the clues he has put in. I maintain that Taimandred gained a lot of traction not due to a lack of supporting evidence, so much as the counter clues being overlooked or not given proper weight, and the neutral clues being spun wrong. Maybe RJ was sitting at home, reading the web and saying to himself "why aren't they picking up on it? Why would a guy who can ignore the heat shave his beard off? Come on guys, I just told he he uses proxies...".

 

 

Damandred

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

 

 

Mr Ares

Of course. But it could be neither of them noticed, or it was thought that this was clue enough and there was no need to hammer it home even more. As it is, no satisfactory explanation for that little oddity has been provided. And if your theory cannot adequately explain all the relevant points and mine can, mine is better.

 

 

 

Damandred

Why did Perrin grow a beard? Did that have anything to do with the plot? Dannil aquiring polish? Min wearing pants?

Sometimes a shave is just a shave. And you say others overstate, ha. I dont explain it because it doesnt matter. Dismissing all the clues for Taimandred, then carting out this dead horse, doesnt adequately explain anything. Dont forget im not trying to prove Taimandred, we know that its not true. To use hindsight as a way of saying its obvious from the start, is nonsense. The only point im trying to make is IMO RJ knew people would think Taim was Demandred, it is a matter of opinion and cannot be proven or not.

 

 

Mr Ares

Not everything has to do with plot (you will note that I didn't say that they do). Some things have to do with character, or scene setting, or other things. If it serves no purpose at all, it shouldn't be there. It's a well known literary principle. A shave might be just a shave - but Bashere casts doubt on Taim's identity, causing Taim to prove he is who he says he is. The only explanation offered is he shaved due to the heat, but this is mockery, and we can say with reasonable certainty that is not intended to be taken as the genuine reason - after all, said scene also notes that Taim is untouched by the heat. And I have never lost sight of the fact you're not trying to prove Taimandred. I know exactly what you are saying.

 

 

Damandred reply

Gone over the beard thing. Why wouldnt Demandred use mockery, it wouldnt have been to difficult for Demandred to convince Bashere, its not like Bashere and Taim were close. Frankly it makes more sense for Demandred to laugh Basheres question away because he couldnt of said " well you see, im wearing this mirrior of mist.." were Taim can just say, " i didnt want to be reconized by your thugs".

I didn't say mockery was inappropriate, I said the only answer he offered was mockery, and clearly not intended to be taken as the real reason for shaving. So, why shave? To not want to bother with Illusion complications is silly - he wants to be recognised as Taim, so it's worth the effort. To hide is more reasonable, but doesn't apply to Demandred.

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When I point out that a given point has an issue and you ignore and repost the exact same point that I just pointed out the issue with, what do you expect me to take away from that? That's not "giving your reasons", that's "ignoring inconvenient points".

No, what that means is that I made my arguments, you made yours, I responded with mine, you with yours, until we are now just repeating ourselves. That doesn't interest me. I don't agree with your conclusion or that this is that big of deal.

Except I'm talking about an argument you didn't respond to, and pretended (more than once) hadn't been made. Sort of like what you're doing right now.

 

Mr Ares, on 20 Feb 2014 - 08:43 AM, said: Except minion-Taim is the Taim is a Darkfriend theory. Also, don't mistake popularity for quality. The quality of an argument is not determined by popular vote. Even when I first read the then-current version of the FAQ, some of their arguments didn't convince. I've seen a lot of popular arguments that weren't entirely sound.

Nope. You are now changing definitions. Minion-Taim is not DF Taim. Otherwise, Elza is a proxy for Demandred since she is a DF. Paitr (from EOTW and LOC) was a proxy for Demandred, since he was a DF.

Context matters - neither Elza nor Paitr have anything to do with Taimandred. Minion Taim and DF Taim have, of necessity, a significant amount of overlap. After all, minion is a subset of DF in this context.

I am not so foolish as to equate popularity with quality. Nor are the arguments in any WOT faq immune to criticism. I myself disagreed with points in it. However, the faq endeavored to be as comprehensive and inclusive as possible. It was not meant to be the final say in truth matters (esp since we all knew that RJ said the faq was 1/3 wrong at any given time.)

 

Instead, the faq was (and is) the best representation of the current state of understanding among the most ardent and devoted of wot, the state-of-the-debate at that time. No theories or ideas got into the faq without having been the subject of extensive discussion and heated debate- as good as any you'd see on dragonmount or theoryland. The RJ newsgroup was the primary place, back in the mid-90s for fans to debate Rj's work in detail. The editors of RJ World of WOT were regular participants in the newsgroup (Patrick and Theresa Nielsen Hayden.) The proper way to look at it is the faq only included theories that were subjected to "peer-review". (see http://web.archive.org/web/20040428075951/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.02_one-third.html)

 

So I do not use the historical faq as a popularity tool to indicate truth.

 

You are the one claiming that Minion-Taim was far more viable and clear back at the time of LOC and COS and POD.

 

That is wrong. The faq's of those time periods make it clear that minion-Taim was not a gleam in anyone's eye. It was not debated back then.

Which would be an indicator of popularity. Not of its quality as a theory.

So I ask you, why did none of fandom piece the evidence together properly? Why did we not take Sammael's proxy statement, combine them with Demandred/Taim similarities, and then add in Demandred's evident involvement in what went down in LOC and not come up with Minion-Taim? Do you think, had you been among the discussion back then (and I am increasingly certain that you weren't reading these books back then), you would have been arguing Minion-Taim, when no one else was?.

Fandom is often blinded. We pick up on certain clues, miss others, put them together wrong, make connections we have no reason to, or fail to make the ones we should. And it has certainly been the case that inconvenient dissenting voices get shouted down. What was the solution for the beard thing back then? Did anyone mention that point? Was a solution offered? I've seen a lot of theories put forward, more than I would have come up with by myself. While most of those were poorly thought through and badly argued, I have to say that I have had my mind changed by sufficiently good arguments. Thus, I can conclude that it is quite possible I could have been convinced that Taimandred-is untrue was, if not true, then at least not false.

Why do you think that is? Isn't it possible that when RJ completely closed the door on that theory, we were forced to reexamine all the evidence and finally- finally- were able to see that while Taim wasn't Demandred they were clearly related. And then- then- is when Sammael's proxy statement takes on new meaning. Suddenly, we see the way to reconcile Demandred's apparent importance to the plot of LOC with his not actually being Taim. Suddenly, Minion-Taim explains it all. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040225090546/http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/0_admin/0.01_intro.html sections 1.1.5, 1.5.6, and 1.4.10)

 

But Minion-Taim only became something people thought of once RJ said he couldn't be Demandred. Up till then, any Demandred/Taim connection was seen as proof that they were the same person.

Precisely my point - fandom was blinded. The evidence was accepted is being correctly interpreted in a certain light, and it is only once the established orthodoxy was overthrown that things could be looked at in the correct light.

 

Mr Ares, on 20 Feb 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:This quite nicely illustrates my point - "some people feel" it's a part of something bigger. That sort of thinking distracted people. It goes on to say that one of the Chosen must have had a reason for keeping it a secret - which ignores that while no-one would condemn them for killing a traitor, none of them trust the others. They are not friends, they are rivals. So telling them about what you've done is not the default state, they need a reason to advertise it. Make a few faulty assumptions and you can change the field of suspects dramatically.

You need to read this again. The argument wasn't made that the Chosen didn't tell anyone whether or not they had killed Asmo. No one was under the delusion that they were besties and sharing the latest gossip with each other. All the forsaken socials they had were like a sea of armed camps. The point being made is why is RJ keeping this such a secret? Why wast his something to be cagey about? So immediately we tried to figure out why? And the fact that this continued on, book after book, until long after RJ's death only seemed to highlight this issue more and more. Why was he being so secretive about it unless it was important?

"Now, we are not the only ones ignorant of the culprit. All of the characters (except one, obviously) are also ignorant of whodunnit (if they're Forsakens), or of what actually happenned (if they're Good Guys or rank-and-file DFs). So, if

one of the surviving Forsaken killed Asm, they must have a reason for hiding it. After all, it's not like anybody would condemn them for punishing a traitor." Turns out I don't need to reread, you do.

In view of the previous, I will again state that Taimandred was the clearest and most viable of theories back when LOC, COS, and POD were out. It incorporated all the evidence, had the fewest reasons to question it, and made the most thematic sense. That is a matter of historical record. It is a fact. The only reason Minion-Taim became a theory is because RJ killed Taimandred.

Except Taimandred doesn't explain all the evidence. Saying that hindsight is 20/20 doesn't change that - it just means that with hindsight we can see now the clues that Taimandred didn't answer. Thus the only thing which is a matter of historical record was that Taimandred was a popular theory - that doesn't mean it was the best. Minion Taim did a better job than Taimandred of explaining the evidence, had fewer reasons to question it, and made more thematic sense. But it didn't gain as much traction as Taimandred.

@ Mr Ares

 

 

Damandred

All im asking is do you really believe RJ was that surprised, Really? Do you believe that in writting LoC one little thought didnt enter his head that some people might notice similiarities between Taim and Demandred and conclude there the same guy? He was to canny for that. If olvers ugliness was a red herring for cain, 1 thing. How could he fail to notice the Taimandred arc in LoC, he couldnt. That why droves of fans independently believed it, just like RJ wanted them to.

 

 

You failed to answer this.

 

 

Mr Ares;

No, I didn't. I said it's not at all a stretch to think that he might have overlooked Taimandred because he was busy laying the clues down in a different direction.

 

 

Reply

I dont mean to be pendantic, but just to be clear. Do you belive RJ really had no idea that fans would think Taim was Demandred at the end of writting LoC? Yes or No please.

 

 

Mr Ares

A yes or no answer would be inappropriate. I don't know what was in RJ's mind at the time of writing. Nor do you. I think it is entirely possible that he didn't realise how alike they would appear to us, and felt he's left enough clues to point in the right direction.

 

 

Damandred reply

I dont see what is inappropriate about giving your opinion on a matter central to what we,ve been discussing. I am not asking for his exact thoughts on the matter, im well aware you cant give them. Other people have gave their opinion, you just seem to be dodging the question.

I didn't say giving my opinion would be inappropriate, I said giving it as a yes or no would be. I have given my answer. My answer isn't a simple yes or no because I can't honestly answer the question you have asked with a simple yes or no. If you want a yes or no answer, ask a different question. I've already offered an accurate answer to this one. It is entirely possible RJ didn't pick up on Taimandred, or thought he'd put in enough to stop that being the dominant theory.

 

Damamdred

For the so called/ renegade Aiel comments. What else could he mean, if he had no awareness of the Aiel' forswearing of the first covenent?

 

Mr Ares

Well, what did he mean by them anyway? We know now that Taim isn't Demandred, so we know he wasn't speaking from direct knowledge. That means Demandred gave him a history lesson that he really took to heart, or that he heard the phrase and picked up on it despite not knowing the meaning, or he meant something else altogether. Interestingly, I just checked Ideal Seek for "so-called Aiel" - the first use is Taim's own in LoC11. That makes Taim the originator of the phrase, and if we are discussing the the point of view of up to LoC, and not after, then we cannot see this phrase as a link to the Chosen (who have never used it). As Aiel means "dedicated" and he's casting doubt on them ("who knows what these so-called Aiel will do?") the most obvious implication is that he's questioning their dedication. As for renegades, he's talking about the Siswai'aman. The people who have broken away from the mainstream Aiel. Thus, renegades.

 

 

Damandred

The fact is only the forsaken had ever referred to the Aiel as anthing other than Aiel. Cant remember exact quotes but i know Lanfear and Asmo do. Nobody else except Taim. So just because they didnt use the exact wording as Taim doesnt make the point less valid.

 

Mr Ares

I think you need to find that quote.

 

Damandred reply

I was mistaken, i was remembering lanfears slap a da' shain comment wrong, she says these Aiel.

Morridin calls them so called in CoS and Taimandred is still on at that point, but as we were speaking exclusively about LoC i will concede the point.

Thank you.

 

Damandred

By your own admition RJ drew similarities between Taim and Demandred, but you say they point to Taim being Demandred' minion. In hindsight we know this to be true. But the significant thing is, is that RJ consciously drew comparisons between Taim and Demandred. As has been pointed out by others, the prologue and Taims attuide in LoC, Taimandred is a logical conclusion. You say there were clues that it wasnt. The beard thing is ridiculous and not even worth debating, if you have any more reasons i would like to hear them.

 

Mr Ares

Why is the beard thing not worth debating? Clearly it's there for a reason, clearly that reason is not to do with the heat. It's an oddity about Taim, and the oddities about Taim were what brought about Taimandred anyway. Why don't I do the same thing? "The not smiling thing is clearly not worth discussing because it's ridiculous. If you have any other clues that meet my arbitrary standards of worthiness, please provide them." The indications that they are the same man are very thin, and the resulting problems as of LoC have been pointed out.

 

 

Damandred

Sigh

The beard can be spun for and against. IMO it is more in favor of Taimandred. So i didnt want to debate it because i didnt want to flog a dead horse. It is even more ridiculous as its weighted against all the clues for Taimandred, which you say dont exist. I posted a quote for the smile a few pages back from rand and mesanna' pov's describing word for word Taim and Demandred being as close as ever, to smiling, but you just dismiss that and every other clue, as us plebs overstating things and seeing what we want, then come back to the silly beard thing.

 

Mr Ares

The point is that I don't see how it can be spun for Taimandred. There are a number of clues that can point either way, but this isn't one of them. It's a curiosity that no answer has been provided for. Note that I never said the clues for Taimandred don't exist, I said the similarities between Taim and specifically Demandred were minimal - not smiling being just about the whole of it - and that most of the clues can be interpreted multiple ways. But if you add the clues that weigh against Taimandred against the ones for it and leave out the ones that work for either side, against is stronger. If you disagree, please provide the clues which work purely for Taimandred, not for other theories. I will also point out with regards to the non-smiling that your initial point was phrased so as to emphasise a difference in the mannerism, which I pointed out to you. I did not further pursue the point when the quote was provided, because the quote showed a greater degree of similarity than your words did. Thus my point was never that the two mannerisms were different, merely that your argument supported them being different. You didn't refute that, you changed your argument. Strawman and moving the goalposts are logical fallacies.

 

Damandred reply

I will not got list all the Taimandred points against all the not Taimandred, as there is only one against, the beard, and that could be argued that, Demandred didnt want unnecessary complications on a mirrior of mist illusion. You are right in HINDSIGHT you can explain most of Taimandred, though the so called, Aiel comment is still odd in whatever context, it was said, i dont see how i was trying to point out different mannerisms in the smile thing, as it would be counter productive to the point i was trying to make. I was pointing out a word for word disciption by two different characters about Taim and Demandred smiling. I wrongly said " almost" when i should of said " as close as ever" it was a honest mistake and not moving goal posts.

As i have said the silmilaries between Taimandand can now be explained but as of LoC they couldnt. Thrown together with Demandreds scenes at the beginning and end of the book, i will say again for the umpteenth time Taimandred is a logical conclusion and one RJ must of saw. The beard thing IMO just adds weight to it and your attitude that its a major clue against, and everyone else is just too dumb to see it, is a little insulting. I dont doubt you were never convinced by Taimandred, and bully for you for your insight, but RJ was too canny to miss it and too good a writer to have done it by accident, that is my honest opinion on the matter, a opinion you wont give because of some mythical impropriety.

There are two anti-Taimandred points as of LoC. There is one pro-Taimandred point as of LoC. There are several neutral points (that is, they can be argued for either side) as of LoC. If I have two and you have one, who has more evidence? I do. If your evidence is easily explained by pointing out that the two could easily share a mannerism, but my evidence cannot be explained away quite so simply, whose evidence is stronger? Mine. You weren't trying to point out different mannerisms. You did anyway - you made a point opposed to the one you wanted to make, due to poor wording. When you actually provided a quote, I didn't contest the point.

Actually, the evidence could be explained as of LoC. People didn't necessarily pick up on the correct pieces of evidence, or didn't put them together correctly, but all points can be explained as of that book. And I have already admitted there was evidence for Taimandred. Whether RJ would have picked up on it on his own is due to too much knowledge - he knows what things are meant to signify. He knows all the clues he has put in. I maintain that Taimandred gained a lot of traction not due to a lack of supporting evidence, so much as the counter clues being overlooked or not given proper weight, and the neutral clues being spun wrong. Maybe RJ was sitting at home, reading the web and saying to himself "why aren't they picking up on it? Why would a guy who can ignore the heat shave his beard off? Come on guys, I just told he he uses proxies...".

 

Damandred

If harriet pointed Taimandred out and he wanted to discourage it, he could of done it well more decisively than Taim losing his beard.

 

 

Mr Ares

Of course. But it could be neither of them noticed, or it was thought that this was clue enough and there was no need to hammer it home even more. As it is, no satisfactory explanation for that little oddity has been provided. And if your theory cannot adequately explain all the relevant points and mine can, mine is better.

 

 

 

Damandred

Why did Perrin grow a beard? Did that have anything to do with the plot? Dannil aquiring polish? Min wearing pants?

Sometimes a shave is just a shave. And you say others overstate, ha. I dont explain it because it doesnt matter. Dismissing all the clues for Taimandred, then carting out this dead horse, doesnt adequately explain anything. Dont forget im not trying to prove Taimandred, we know that its not true. To use hindsight as a way of saying its obvious from the start, is nonsense. The only point im trying to make is IMO RJ knew people would think Taim was Demandred, it is a matter of opinion and cannot be proven or not.

 

 

Mr Ares

Not everything has to do with plot (you will note that I didn't say that they do). Some things have to do with character, or scene setting, or other things. If it serves no purpose at all, it shouldn't be there. It's a well known literary principle. A shave might be just a shave - but Bashere casts doubt on Taim's identity, causing Taim to prove he is who he says he is. The only explanation offered is he shaved due to the heat, but this is mockery, and we can say with reasonable certainty that is not intended to be taken as the genuine reason - after all, said scene also notes that Taim is untouched by the heat. And I have never lost sight of the fact you're not trying to prove Taimandred. I know exactly what you are saying.

 

 

Damandred reply

Gone over the beard thing. Why wouldnt Demandred use mockery, it wouldnt have been to difficult for Demandred to convince Bashere, its not like Bashere and Taim were close. Frankly it makes more sense for Demandred to laugh Basheres question away because he couldnt of said " well you see, im wearing this mirrior of mist.." were Taim can just say, " i didnt want to be reconized by your thugs".

I didn't say mockery was inappropriate, I said the only answer he offered was mockery, and clearly not intended to be taken as the real reason for shaving. So, why shave? To not want to bother with Illusion complications is silly - he wants to be recognised as Taim, so it's worth the effort. To hide is more reasonable, but doesn't apply to Demandred.
Why not a yes or no answer? Saying somethings entirely possible or he thought he'd..... is not answering the question.

Do you think, in your opinion, RJ had no idea that people would think Taim was Demandred.

Do you think he was entirely suprised by Taimandred.

I can phrase it however you want but the question remains the same. That is the question i want you to answer, why would i ask another?

I believe no he wasnt suprised, and yes knew people would think Taim was Demandred. That has ever been the main thrust of my posts. That you keep failing to give a definitive answer gives a whiff of sophistry.

You say you didnt ( sportingly) point out my mistake on the smile thing at first, then you say i made the wrong point, when it was obviously just a mistake on wording, then i point this out, and you bring it up again. This reads to me that you are trying to score points that are not there..

You say the mirror of mists reason for the beard is silly which is absurd. Demandred could of measured the risk of not adding the beard to people casting doubt on his identity and concluded that a imperfect illusion was a greater risk than people casting brief doubts because he shaved. The proxy comment could have been taken as a attempt to turn people off Taimandred which would be understandable, given all the hints for. Now you continue to insist that theses two point are some major clues of RJ discouraging Taimandred, i dont see it that way. You also claim there is only one for, but that is simply not true. Please explain the one that can go "either way". It is not just the smile thing, but others , you have pointed out Taim was the original user on the so called comment, but it was still a odd comment to make and one you would exspect from a forsaken and not a proxy, same with the rage thing on pinning the pins on, there is also other referances that draw similararties, such as the way they domminated rooms, put together with how the book finishes and ends, how is that one point?

So your two BIG points, one imo is more for Taimandred, and the other could of ( reasonibly) been seen as misdirection. While a whole book of telling similarites and a more than sugestive beginning and ending to the book is clumped together as one point.

Concratulations your capacity to twist evidence to favor your own arguments is truely awe inspiring.

Edited by damandred

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