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Moraine


Xeonicus
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Which is why I am supposing the theories that either the DO or the Finns directly affected how much she can channel. The fact that others haven't experienced this doesn't disprove that a capable body is needed at all, only that those people haven't angered the Finns or the DO enough.

 

It was discussed before that:

1) Channeling requires both physical and "soul"

2) The soul determines which half of the OP is accessible, hence SH's statement regarding body bending to soul.

3) The body determines whether or not it is possible.

 

I believe it was either SH or Moridin that stated those bodies were the best to be found in the Borderland raids. I'd say it would be fairly easy to scoop up a dozen or so people - but since channeling is a rare trait it would makes sense that finding a capable body would be what the difficulty was, not just finding someone in general.

 

There is not any direct evidence in the books, but it has been hinted at many times.

 

I don't disagree that Cyndane/Lanfear's weakness is NOT a result of the transmigration. I think it's a result of either the Finns or the DO.

 

<edit> As Maj has stated, I'm also fairly certain that RJ resolved this argument. I'm looking for it right now. </edit>

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I think it's a result of either the Finns or the DO.

 

Well ... I think it's a result of being stilled when the ter'angreal blew up and subsequently Healed by a female channeler ... but that is beside the point.

 

3) The body determines whether or not it is possible.

 

That's the only one I have issues with. I mean, if the ability to channel needs a physical expression, how can channelers channel in Tel'aran'rhiod, without entering it physically?

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Possibly because they are a mental apparition of their physical selves? I recall Rand losing his grip on saidin when Rhavin was turning him into a dog. It would also stand to reason why the Wise Ones told Egwene that you chould still channel in T'A'R, but it would not be a strongly, or have as strong as an affect , as in the real world. I also believe that's why Moggy was in need of clean undergarments during the battle between Rand and Rhavin - they could channel strongly and do more damage being there in the flesh.

 

I did find a reference that makes channeling genetic in the blogs, but nothing that specifies a specific link to the physical. However, if channeling can be said to be genetic, then it would indeed be physical. The blog makes reference to sul'dam remaining in the breeding pool, and therefor passing along the necessary genetic information.

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Well crap ... leave it to me to find my own disproof:

 

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the “present day†sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

from: http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=25

 

So, apparently there is a genetic component. :lol: So, now I can talk about all the things I didn't want to bring up earlier about the Two Rivers limited gene pool producing lots of channelers, and the madness of male channelers, as well as Aes Sedai's propensity for not having children, culling the population. I guess I shouldn't expect the mechanics of a fantasy ability to be constricted by the exigencies of reality.

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I did find a reference that makes channeling genetic in the blogs, but nothing that specifies a specific link to the physical.

 

Oh, and as an aside, Trib4l, genes are physical. Your argument was even stronger than you thought.

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Guest Majsju

See, wasn't that hard to find the Blog, was it :D

 

Had it been a reference from a source outside DM I would have quoted it from the start, but I think people hanging here on a daily basis should be comfortable browsing the Blog on their own, without me holding their hand :wink:

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I can't agree here, because we've only seen Healing work on a physical condition, never a "soul". Since Lanfear was placed into a new body, and the body had the physical trait to allow channeling, it seems unlikely that the new body's OP connection would have been cut and be in need of Healing.

 

I think in the case of stilling, there is a "conduit" that is metaphysical in nature that connects the body to the one power. I think stilling cuts the conduit on the metaphysical "side". The body is not robbed of its potential for channeling, we know stilled Aei Sedai can still sense saidar, they just can't touch it at all.

 

So it seems likely that the "damage" is on the side of the soul, not the body. Switch the soul to the new "channeling capable" body, and the soul is still damaged.

 

What I want to know is... what would happen if the DO saved Aginor's soul and put it into Bela's body? Huh?

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I can't agree here, because we've only seen Healing work on a physical condition, never a "soul". Since Lanfear was placed into a new body, and the body had the physical trait to allow channeling, it seems unlikely that the new body's OP connection would have been cut and be in need of Healing.

 

I think in the case of stilling, there is a "conduit" that is metaphysical in nature that connects the body to the one power. I think stilling cuts the conduit on the metaphysical "side". The body is not robbed of its potential for channeling, we know stilled Aei Sedai can still sense saidar, they just can't touch it at all.

 

So it seems likely that the "damage" is on the side of the soul, not the body. Switch the soul to the new "channeling capable" body, and the soul is still damaged.

 

What I want to know is... what would happen if the DO saved Aginor's soul and put it into Bela's body? Huh?

 

This would also explain why Nyneave used Fire and Spirit to Heal Logain, Siuane and Leanne.

 

Danger Will Robinson!! Danger!!! Wild unprovable specualtion coming:

 

Given the descriptions of saidin and saidar would it make sense that Grady uses Water and Spirit to Heal the women rather than the Fire and Spirit that Nynaeve uses?

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Given the descriptions of saidin and saidar would it make sense that Grady uses Water and Spirit to Heal the women rather than the Fire and Spirit that Nynaeve uses?

 

 

Or maybe Air. But yeah, I could buy that. Obviously there has to be some difference. With Water and Air being stronger generally for women, and Earth and Fire for men, that would make sense.

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I agree that Moraine was stilled when she entered Finland. I think one of the great ironys of the story will be that Nyneave, who agreed to study in White Tower for the sole purpose of bringing Moraine down, will ultimalty use what she has learned to heal Moraine instead.

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Well, actually, given that Rand knows what Damer did, and Nynaeve is with Rand, he'll probably make sure it is Damer that Heals her so she gets full Power back.

 

An interesting side thought ...if Damer did use Water or Air with Spirit in place of Fire, would that mean that a woman using the other flows could Heal a woman fully?

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That could be... it still bothers me though. Why have a black sister restore Cyndane? Isn't the DO capable of doing that himself? If he isn't, or wasn't willing to, why have a female do it, why not get one of the male forsaken to do it and restore her fully? Surely they can't say no to the DO, though I suppose it would have been a simpler matter to have a black sister do it in secret than inviting Demandred back to Shayol Ghul. That still begs the question... Moghedian learned to heal severing from Nynaeve, do you think Moghedian would have taught such a thing to the black sisters or did healing severing become common knowledge (I don't remember).

 

At that time the Shadow had no knowledge of the male version of the weave. Additionally, i do not believe Moghedian knows it either, which is why i suggest that it is more likely the work of a Black Sister. And yes, the weave is common knowledge amongst the Rebels. Nynaeve herself taught them all.

 

As for the Dark One... it seems unlikely given the reason Robert states, and the fact that Cyndanes healing shows the imperfections of human healing.

 

I can't agree here, because we've only seen Healing work on a physical condition, never a "soul". Since Lanfear was placed into a new body, and the body had the physical trait to allow channeling, it seems unlikely that the new body's OP connection would have been cut and be in need of Healing. Also, we have seen that women healing women results in a far lower ability with the power. With someone like Lanfear I think it would have put her on level ground with Moiraine, not with Graendal as we see later.

 

Actually this isn't the healing weave. Secondly we have seen through the wise ones the use of the soul in healing, why not the use of healing on the soul. Thirdly we have seen the one power affect the soul (the hedgehog and dream ter'angreal etc).

 

Next. What the Dark One does is not like rebirth. Yes, genetics has an effect on the strength and ability to channel (learning or sparking etc) but that is in the nature development of channeling as a natural function of rebirth. Channeling is a function of the soul, the genetics merely influences the ability of the body to handle that soul.

 

But all of that is pointless because we have seen that what occurs in recycling is nothing like rebirth. Aside from Cyndane, all of the recycled Forsaken have been at exactly the same strength. Aran'gar continues to channel saidin despite being in a female body--unless you are claiming that is a function of genetics, then we must assume that what the Dark One does is different.

 

My guess is genetics has to do with development. As the body grows the soul's facet-personality grows to match it. If it has the genetic suitability for channeling, then that ability will start to unfurl as the body grows to a stage of readyness for it. But in the case of the Forsken their souls do not match their bodies at all, the growth of the two have not effected each other. The function of channeling is therefore not constrained by the bodies historical development.

 

Finally, the point of the decline in strength. Suines decline may not be as dramatic as it seems, the requirement being that the aes Sedai have a large varience in strength. Remember that Suine is not actually at the bottom of the pecking order. She is just much further down then she used to be. Aes Sedai, who only admit women over a certain strength, and have been commented on that no women have come of a certain strength since Cadsuane... well i dont think a comprable conclusion can be drawn. Suine's decline could very well match that of Lanfear's--which must, i might remind you, have been enough to be commented on, remembering that exactly addressing a womens strength and comparing it to your own is hard without dueling, it means the decline must have been significant enough to be noticed.

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