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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
ironisles

Day that dawns twice

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I think it's this: When Rand comes at Shayol Ghul, he is in a circle with Nyn and Alivia. The clouds above SG break, and this is the first dawn (yes, for mourning, read on:). Then Alivia turns out to be a DF, and steals Callandor, and gives it to Demandred, who arrived there earlier. Demandred kills Rand, and the clouds return. But Rand doesn't just die. Because of his connection with Moridin, he comes in Moridin's head (almost the same as LTT in Rand's head). He tells Moridin about what he found out in VoG, and then their souls become one, and Moridin+Rand will be the new Champion of the Light. And then the clouds break again. This time for birth (of the new Champion of the Light). If you aren't satisfied with this one, maybe Moridin will use the TP to bring Rand back to his body. And also imagine the difference this would make. No doubt Moridin can kill Alivia and Demandred before they know what is going on, and Cyndane and Moghedien are mind-trapped. Only Graendal is left...

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Great thread here, lovin some of these ideas. I actually got a theory for the day dawning twice thing, unfortunately i feel like i should save it for a future blog, i cant run out of material too quick! I think yall will like it tho, it really seems to fit.

 

Mik I really like the layout and premise of your theory in general, and I too would love it if this is how it ended, but it still seems to be a little matrixy, the idea of the seed of chaos thing. I do think that the Dragon and the DP are very closely connected though.

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Actually Mik you might be even closer than I was thinking before: what about Min's vision that she sees a black void around Rand, and endless sparks of light trying to fill it up. Sounds like perfect foreshadowing for your theory.

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Mik I really like the layout and premise of your theory in general, and I too would love it if this is how it ended, but it still seems to be a little matrixy, the idea of the seed of chaos thing. I do think that the Dragon and the DP are very closely connected though.

I think it fits perfectly. It's why the Dragon is always there to confront the Shadow; the weaving of the Dragon into the Pattern brings the weak spot.

 

"All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.” (TEotW, Prologue – Dragonmount)

 

This is right at the start of the series and dates from the 4th Age. The age right after the Last Battle. It's not that the Dragon willingly frees Shai'tan, but him being spun into the Pattern is just the key ingredient.

 

Actually Mik you might be even closer than I was thinking before: what about Min's vision that she sees a black void around Rand, and endless sparks of light trying to fill it up. Sounds like perfect foreshadowing for your theory.

Thanks! :myrddraal:

You might want to re-read the sections where Rand & co. travel through the Ways. So much of what happens in TEotW is a small event foreshadowing key-events later in the books. I think a lot can be found when viewing the Ways as a smaller version of the Shadow.

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So much of what happens in TEotW is a small event foreshadowing key-events later in the books. I think a lot can be found when viewing the Ways as a smaller version of the Shadow.

 

the eye of the world has always seemed an excellent stand alone to me, and foreshadows the whole nearly interminable plot expansion to come.

 

my favorite in the series, though an unpopular choice. the storytelling was at its best for me here. what comes after is, in many ways, superfluous.

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Just a wild line of speculation:

 

I guessing the Randland equivalent of a nuclear detonation, the Trinity test of the Atomic bomb, May 1945, has been describeded as the day the sun rose twice...

 

Elayne seems to have invented a tac nuke by her unknotting a Gateway while escaping the Kin Farm north of Ebou Dar. From scouting reports of the Seanchan, they initially thought it was a weapon of mass destruction.

 

I don't know about Elayne's Gateway-unweaving is strong enough to be considered "nuclear" but I do like the connection to the Trinity Test. Seeing as RJ was a history buff and a soldier, he definitely would have known about this, and with all the symbolism in the story about the power of 3, I think that this could hold some serious merit. What if the three on Callandor are Rand (using saidin), Nynaeve (using saidar), and Moridin returning to the Light (using the TP)? All three together would definitely have some serious power and be able to create something resembling the pure power of a nuke.

 

As for the Day That Dawns Twice, I really like Mik's idea. It seems well thought out, cohesive, and all around solid.

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This entire discussion is very interesting, and with some very well thought out and well-written theories... but I have personally always thought it would be both a literal day with two dawns (solar eclipse, see cover for aMoL), and a figurative/metaphorical day of two dawns as well (as possibly described in above theories).

 

The only problem I have with theories of the Last Battle, is that it needs it to actually be the last battle. If its just the same ol' repeating battle between the light & shadow, who cares? Doesn't matter who wins, because the wheel will turn and it will come around again. Any ending that results in the WoT continuing to turn in the same manner it always has, with the cyclical balance of the battle between tDO & Light would mean that it's not REALLY the last battle. For it to be a really satisfactory ending for myself, the pattern & wheel have to be changed into something new, that doesn't repeat endlessly, but instead is linear and ever changing.... otherwise its just the same ol' story repeating itself again.

 

To me, the Last Battle is different in that the Wheel becomes permanently broken (which is what the DO wants), and just as the DO thinks it has won and will reshape the pattern to its own design, Rand throws a curve and remakes it into something new and of the Light, but different from the WoT & absent the balance of the shadow.

 

Its not really a fleshed out theory, but my primary premise is that the Last Battle has to actually be the last battle, and the Wheel will not exist afterward. I make no qualms about knowing what will exist in its stead, just that the Wheel will be no more.

 

(Edit: just realized I revived a dead thread... just started my Grand ReRead and was searching for answers on why the shadow didn't kill protagonists in Chapter 1 (myddrall were there looking at them), in which the answers I found eventually lead me here, as it usually goes, on and on).

Edited by dragonfire613

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This entire discussion is very interesting, and with some very well thought out and well-written theories... but I have personally always thought it would be both a literal day with two dawns (solar eclipse, see cover for aMoL), and a figurative/metaphorical day of two dawns as well (as possibly described in above theories).

 

The only problem I have with theories of the Last Battle, is that it needs it to actually be the last battle. If its just the same ol' repeating battle between the light & shadow, who cares? Doesn't matter who wins, because the wheel will turn and it will come around again. Any ending that results in the WoT continuing to turn in the same manner it always has, with the cyclical balance of the battle between tDO & Light would mean that it's not REALLY the last battle. For it to be a really satisfactory ending for myself, the pattern & wheel have to be changed into something new, that doesn't repeat endlessly, but instead is linear and ever changing.... otherwise its just the same ol' story repeating itself again.

 

To me, the Last Battle is different in that the Wheel becomes permanently broken (which is what the DO wants), and just as the DO thinks it has won and will reshape the pattern to its own design, Rand throws a curve and remakes it into something new and of the Light, but different from the WoT & absent the balance of the shadow.

 

Its not really a fleshed out theory, but my primary premise is that the Last Battle has to actually be the last battle, and the Wheel will not exist afterward. I make no qualms about knowing what will exist in its stead, just that the Wheel will be no more.

 

(Edit: just realized I revived a dead thread... just started my Grand ReRead and was searching for answers on why the shadow didn't kill protagonists in Chapter 1 (myddrall were there looking at them), in which the answers I found eventually lead me here, as it usually goes, on and on).

I thought that for a while but I don't agree. I think the wheel cannot be destroyed because if it is then the DO has won as that is exactly what he wants to do - destroy the wheel and control destiny. if anything, maybe the wheel can be forced to weave a new end/beginning so that when tarmon gaidon is supposed to happen again something else comes around.

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The only problem I have with theories of the Last Battle, is that it needs it to actually be the last battle. If its just the same ol' repeating battle between the light & shadow, who cares? Doesn't matter who wins, because the wheel will turn and it will come around again. Any ending that results in the WoT continuing to turn in the same manner it always has, with the cyclical balance of the battle between tDO & Light would mean that it's not REALLY the last battle. For it to be a really satisfactory ending for myself, the pattern & wheel have to be changed into something new, that doesn't repeat endlessly, but instead is linear and ever changing.... otherwise its just the same ol' story repeating itself again.

 

To me, the Last Battle is different in that the Wheel becomes permanently broken (which is what the DO wants), and just as the DO thinks it has won and will reshape the pattern to its own design, Rand throws a curve and remakes it into something new and of the Light, but different from the WoT & absent the balance of the shadow.

 

It's not the "Last Battle", just the one for this age. Per RJ there is nothing that makes this age unique(yes I know he said Fain is something new). Just posted it in another thread but also Herid Fel says...

 

LoC Ch. 18

"What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

 

The kicker is the DO needs to only win the "ultimate victory" once.

Edited by Suttree

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I thought that for a while but I don't agree. I think the wheel cannot be destroyed because if it is then the DO has won as that is exactly what he wants to do - destroy the wheel and control destiny. if anything, maybe the wheel can be forced to weave a new end/beginning so that when tarmon gaidon is supposed to happen again something else comes around.

 

I like that idea as well...

 

It would just be a little anti-climatic to me if we get a "and the DO is sealed up again until the next time the wheel turns around & the bore is discovered and we do this all again" kind of ending... not to say it wouldn't still be awesome... I guess I'm just expecting a little more than what has always happened before. (Edit: Although, on second thought, in reality I can't say that "what has always happened before" won't be satisfying, since we are yet to see what that is).

Edited by dragonfire613

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I am reading TGH, and am on the part where Rand meets Thom again..Thom recited some prophecy. Could the part with the day with two dawns be referring to an eclipse of the Sun?

 

I think it's important to give credit where credit is due. Rulius got this right over a year ago (proof is on the book cover) -- congrats sir!

 

Mik, that's a really nice theory. I have some ideas on how that sequence of events will be portrayed in the book, but I haven't decided where to post them yet.

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Not sure about the whole day dawning once in the real world and once in TAR. I got the strong impression there was no sun in TAR, just ambient light. Did I miss something in the books saying there were celestial bodies in TAR?

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I am reading TGH, and am on the part where Rand meets Thom again..Thom recited some prophecy. Could the part with the day with two dawns be referring to an eclipse of the Sun?

 

I think it's important to give credit where credit is due. Rulius got this right over a year ago (proof is on the book cover) -- congrats sir!

 

Mik, that's a really nice theory. I have some ideas on how that sequence of events will be portrayed in the book, but I haven't decided where to post them yet.

 

Why thank you hehe.

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Not sure about the whole day dawning once in the real world and once in TAR. I got the strong impression there was no sun in TAR, just ambient light. Did I miss something in the books saying there were celestial bodies in TAR?

well brigitte mentions that the time there flows different then her and nyn compare how long in days it has been since they saw each other and it was different

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It would just be a little anti-climatic to me if we get a "and the DO is sealed up again until the next time the wheel turns around & the bore is discovered and we do this all again" kind of ending... not to say it wouldn't still be awesome... I guess I'm just expecting a little more than what has always happened before. (Edit: Although, on second thought, in reality I can't say that "what has always happened before" won't be satisfying, since we are yet to see what that is).
The end of the main series might come after Tarmon Gaidon.

And Outrigger novels were planned.

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