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Rand defeating the Dark One, for once and for all..


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My assumption about the end of the series is that Rand (imbued with LTT's memories, past mistakes and successes) will "kill" Shai'tan, in the broad sense of the word.

 

Why not? He reversed the DO's touch on saidin, a touch which effected the entire, incomprehensible well of saidin, stretching the Choeden Kal *spelling* to their limits at the same time. These apparently had enough power to challenge and kill the DO (Thanks Lanfear), and possibly the Creator. If he was able to do that, is it not possible that he will find some way to destroy Shai'tan? I know he doesn't have the Choeden Kal anymore, but it's Rand guys, anything could happen.

 

He'll change EVERYTHING, otherwise there will be no real closure in the ending. We know it will all happen again, and that's just not good enough for me.

 

Thoughts?

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My assumption about the end of the series is that Rand (imbued with LTT's memories, past mistakes and successes) will "kill" Shai'tan, in the broad sense of the word.

 

Why not? He reversed the DO's touch on saidin, a touch which effected the entire, incomprehensible well of saidin, stretching the Choeden Kal *spelling* to their limits at the same time. These apparently had enough power to challenge and kill the DO (Thanks Lanfear), and possibly the Creator. If he was able to do that, is it not possible that he will find some way to destroy Shai'tan? I know he doesn't have the Choeden Kal anymore, but it's Rand guys, anything could happen.

 

He'll change EVERYTHING, otherwise there will be no real closure in the ending. We know it will all happen again, and that's just not good enough for me.

 

Thoughts?

Well it's called the Wheel of Time for a reason, It's supposed to happen again, and therefor I don't think he will kill the DO permanently. He (DO) has been around since creation and I think that's the way it's supposed to be. Yin/Yang, Good/Evil and all that....

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Do agree that-

 

knowing that the DO won't die at the end is just as bad as knowing that Rand and co. have been pretty much invulnerable through 14 books.

 

I don't mind if he doesn't kill the DO

but surprise is necessary, something dramatically different has to happen.

 

Saying that the name of the novel is the reason why its 'ok' for the DO to be sealed and the Wheel to continue is circular reasoning.

( The Do will be sealed because its called the Wheel of Time and its called the Wheel of Time because the DO will just be sealed.)

 

 

 

Please do not defend the idea of circular reasoning as being part of the appeal to a book called the Wheel of Time :)

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Do agree that-

 

knowing that the DO won't die at the end is just as bad as knowing that Rand and co. have been pretty much invulnerable through 14 books.

 

I don't mind if he doesn't kill the DO

but surprise is necessary, something dramatically different has to happen.

 

Saying that the name of the novel is the reason why its 'ok' for the DO to be sealed and the Wheel to continue is circular reasoning.

( The Do will be sealed because its called the Wheel of Time and its called the Wheel of Time because the DO will just be sealed.)

 

 

 

Please do not defend the idea of circular reasoning as being part of the appeal to a book called the Wheel of Time :)

 

It's not really circular reasoning. It's the basic cosmology of the world in the WoT. Ages came and pass and eventually come around again. It's not the fact that the name is "Wheel" it's the fact that circular time is the basic premise of the world in these books. I think if Rand is to kill the Dark One, there will need to be an evil to replace him (like Fain). RJ liked his yin/yang two sides to everything philosophy. There will have to be some kind of evil entity at the end of the books.

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I'm quite certain that in the end, Rand will manage to defeat the DO, and in the long run people will forget he even exists (thus, again world coming to pre-bore state). I think there isn't need to state whether he really managed to kill DO, or to fully recover his prison. In the short run, they are no different. I would personally be extremely disappointed if he somehow managed to really kill/destroy the DO.

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Please do not defend the idea of circular reasoning as being part of the appeal to a book called the Wheel of Time :)

 

 

How about this: DO is near omnipotent and it's just crazy to even contemplate the thought of Rand killing a GOD? On one hand we have a entity with power to span multi-universes and on another hand we have a man who can only counter a very very very tiny fraction of DO's power (at the moment) when DO is probably using a fraction of it's power in first place? So how do they stack of against each other? What weapon could possibly be used a man to kill a GOD? You cannot Balefire DO (even if you could use whole universe as a Sa'angreal) because DO is not part of the pattern. Only reason we are even entertaining this thought because we simply don't wanna believe that our bad guy cannot be defeated but only denied. So no, we want DO to go down, not the story. If DO ever gets free, it will simply smash the Wheel and Dragon/Fain...all will just disappear.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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I don't think Shai'ton can "die", literally. Figuratively, his death would relate to a fading memory of his existence, but literally, a "being" like him shouldn't be able to die. I would argue that he's not technically "alive", just that he "is". It's a whole paradox that involves actually observing what Shai'ton is, and, quite frankly, I don't think one could call him something that's living to begin with. It's just the embodiment of evil, the antithesis to the good will created by the Creator, which I also figure to just be a "thing" or embodiment. So unless you can completely destroy evil (how the heck do you do that anyways?) Shai'ton can't be defeated for eternity.

 

I'd like a rather different than expected ending, though. Too many fantasies end with the bad guys being defeated. I want WoT to pull a really risky ending, something revolutionary for fantasy if possible. I don't want it to cop out in the end.

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My assumption about the end of the series is that Rand (imbued with LTT's memories, past mistakes and successes) will "kill" Shai'tan, in the broad sense of the word.

 

Why not? He reversed the DO's touch on saidin, a touch which effected the entire, incomprehensible well of saidin, stretching the Choeden Kal *spelling* to their limits at the same time. These apparently had enough power to challenge and kill the DO (Thanks Lanfear), and possibly the Creator. If he was able to do that, is it not possible that he will find some way to destroy Shai'tan? I know he doesn't have the Choeden Kal anymore, but it's Rand guys, anything could happen.

 

He'll change EVERYTHING, otherwise there will be no real closure in the ending. We know it will all happen again, and that's just not good enough for me.

 

Thoughts?

Well it's called the Wheel of Time for a reason, It's supposed to happen again, and therefor I don't think he will kill the DO permanently. He (DO) has been around since creation and I think that's the way it's supposed to be. Yin/Yang, Good/Evil and all that....

 

 

Yeah, but he creates minions that destroy people's souls. This needs to end or else everyone will have their soul destroyed at some point. Their is no real victory for anyone at the end because you and your family will have your souls destroyed while you beg for mercy. If not in this Age than in another. Moridin will have been right all along. Just the rock you are standing on will continue. And maybe the Dragon.

Edited by Awakened
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So in ToM Min thinks she is on to something with this phrase from her books...

 

ToM "A Storm if Light"

 

light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized

 

Anyone have guesses as to what that could be referring to? Min seems to think it's a dangerous flaw in callandor but it could be key in what Rand ends up doing.

Edited by Suttree
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Like I said, I'm not concerned if he doesn't kill the DO.

But if something doesn't happen thats dramatically different then the entire book reinforces the distorted logic of Moridin. If the DO is just sealed for next time then Moridin is right. Moridin's philosophy needs to be proven untrue by the end of AMoL.

 

Considering his philosophy, that the DO has eternity to wait until his victory because he cannot be defeated, then how can you prove Moridin wrong unless you

 

a;) permanently seal the DO

b;) Kill the Do

c;) Convince Moridin of VoG 'love philosophy' (which I don't think he'll care much for)

 

So take your pick I guess.

 

Many have remarked on how at the end of the book the DO might say 'I have won again Lews Therin' and leave us in the dark. Personally i feel it's so borderline "I'll be back" that it makes me a little queasy.

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^^Life is not fair. So I am guessing you definitely don't want DO to win?

 

 

Idea of defeating DO goes beyond defeating an "chaotic" entity. "Evil" inside men's heart cannot be defeated but kept at bay. People by nature are corrupt and they don't need a DO to do bad things. DO| here merely represents larger than life evil. Just like evil men will always be there, so will it be. And they lived happily ever after never happens.

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Well, if Rand simply seals the DO away again, Shai'tan has won.

RJ focused on this age and gave us the WoT philosophy, as well as Moridin's own philosophy, and if Rand doesn't do something totally different then there has been no real win or conclusion. I just don't think RJ was that sort of writer.

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The whole purpose of the Wheel of Time is the Wheel is forever turning with Ages coming and going, people living/dying/reborn. It is the basis of the Rand Revelation on Dragonmount in Gathering Storm. A part of the Wheel and Ages is the Dark One. To change that would be to break the Wheel jsut as badly as Shai'tan ever wanted to. It would be a piss poor ending that would feel cheap and like the author contorted an ending just to give the readers that Saturday Night TV Movie feel-good ending.

 

Victory in Wheel of Time would be the world living to see the sunrise after the Last Battle.

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Idea of defeating DO goes beyond defeating an "chaotic" entity. "Evil" inside men's heart cannot be defeated but kept at bay. People by nature are corrupt and they don't need a DO to do bad things. DO| here merely represents larger than life evil. Just like evil men will always be there, so will it be. And they lived happily ever after never happens.

 

Metaphorically this just doesn't work for me not in WoT

The DO is the big-bad bogeyman. The evil inside men's hearts doesn't matter in the slightest. Your presumption is that the DO is evil. How is the DO evil? His plan is to destroy the Pattern. People refer to him as evil, just like people in our world refer to God as good. I think its prudent to understand that in much the same way that no fathomable way to kill the DO can be discovered or understood, so too can no mortal in the Pattern understand and comprehend his frame of mind. Maybe he's not evil. To be childish, maybe he really just doesn't like whatever colour the Creator made the pattern. Am I evil for killing mosquito's? or discarding a mug because its baby blue?

 

I'm not defending the cause of the DO here, I'm just saying that to draw a comparison to the evil in mens hearts is wrong in terms of the book. For the evil of the DO to carry on existing as a metaphor of the evils we continue to see in our world, despite the fact that numerous religions have long since brought us our salvation, isn't representative of the purpose, drive, motivation and result of evil in WoT aside from the fact that they are both repeating or seem to be endless. Which is more about action, rather than reason.

 

As an example. LotR - Very much a representation of the evils in our lives. Sauron wishes to 'cover the land in darkness' and 'RULE' over the world. This relates to greed, hate, jealousy and things that are very much in our hearts and the hearts of the characters. As is said in the Silmarillion, the evil that Morgoth seeded in the hearts of elves and men oft sprouted anew and bore fruit (Feanor, Numenor, Saruman, We see the weakness of Boromir, Denethor etc etc. We see this in our own lives quite readily, greedy corporations, despotic rulers, war, genocide etc.

 

How many people in the past have decided that the Earth is crap and should be done away with along with all of us? None?

 

In WoT. The DO's purpose isn't clearly enough defined for us to judge it so. Why does he want to destroy the Pattern? Because it's his nature?

 

Besides, the evil of man represented by Mordeth is evil vs. evil. Not evil twisting good to evil for evil purpose. And it sure is distinct in it's difference to the evil of the DO (Cleansing of Saidin). If a duality between the evil of the DO and the evil of man was to be used in the books as such, this would've been the perfect opportunity for the writer to do so and he didn't.

 

 

Well, if Rand simply seals the DO away again, Shai'tan has won.

RJ focused on this age and gave us the WoT philosophy, as well as Moridin's own philosophy, and if Rand doesn't do something totally different then there has been no real win or conclusion. I just don't think RJ was that sort of writer.

 

This is bang on the head. You cannot provide an antagonist philosophy which we can and have identified for 14 books as being 'bad' and then at the end of the book, allow that philosophy to be correct, without it shining throughout your writing that you're fighting a losing cause.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Just hoping for a distinct, different or interesting ending

Knowing how a book ends is no good for me. Especially when the last page, for all intensive purposes is going to say - for continuation of the story, please see page 1.

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Evil is very much what WE don't like..It has no absolute meaning. There is no such thing as evil unless there's a perspective. DO wants to destroy (literally/figuratively) human way of life. He is evil.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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The DO's motive for destroying the Pattern is not just spite. The Pattern is what forms the walls of the DO's prison. SO naturally, he would want to destroy the restrictions on his power. The Dragon is the Creator's Guardian. He is there to ensure the DO stays in his prison and the Pattern is preserved.

 

If the DO could be killed, then why didn't the Creator do it? Why leave it up to us to do? The answer is that the DO is as eternal as the Creator. To destroy the DO would require the mutual annhilation with the Creator. So rather than mutual destruction which would mean nothing would exist, the Creator chose to block the DO away in a prison built by the Pattern.

So, no, Rand cannot kill the Creator even with the Choden Kal. I think Lanfears claims of being able to challenge the DO in a power pissing match was her enormous Ego talking.

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The DO's motive for destroying the Pattern is not just spite. The Pattern is what forms the walls of the DO's prison. SO naturally, he would want to destroy the restrictions on his power. The Dragon is the Creator's Guardian. He is there to ensure the DO stays in his prison and the Pattern is preserved.

 

I don't agree. Power is only 'Power over...'. If the Pattern is destroyed, the DO would have more power over what precisely? I get that he wants to break his prison, but he needs a purpose

 

If the DO could be killed, then why didn't the Creator do it? Why leave it up to us to do? The answer is that the DO is as eternal as the Creator. To destroy the DO would require the mutual annhilation with the Creator. So rather than mutual destruction which would mean nothing would exist, the Creator chose to block the DO away in a prison built by the Pattern.

So, no, Rand cannot kill the Creator even with the Choden Kal. I think Lanfears claims of being able to challenge the DO in a power pissing match was her enormous Ego talking.

 

If there is true balance in the WoT, the Creator wouldn't be able to kill the DO because he is as his name states, 'The Creator'. May as well ask the wise old Carpenter why he can't kill the manly Swordsman. He can't, but he can build a box to put him in.

I guess the gleanings of information we can gather from RJ's comments is all we have to go on, but again - I'm not bothered if the DO doesn't die. Permanently sealing him feels like the best.

 

Conflict resolution feels very necessary in this case. Imagine Rand dying after sealing the DO and spouting rubbish like, 'Well, in 10 000 years he'll get another crack, but I'll be here.'

We'd need an endless supply of WoT books. I'd go insane :)

 

Can anyone else think of a conflict resolution to the series that doesn't end in these ways

 

- Rand kills DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand permanently seals DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand seals DO temporarily (Which effectively means Moridin is correct)

- Fain becomes DO (Plausible yet incredibly unlikely scenario we've seen on the boards)

 

What else could really happen?

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Can anyone else think of a conflict resolution to the series that doesn't end in these ways

 

- Rand kills DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand permanently seals DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand seals DO temporarily (Which effectively means Moridin is correct)

- Fain becomes DO (Plausible yet incredibly unlikely scenario we've seen on the boards)

 

What else could really happen?

 

 

The flaw in Callandor becomes apparent when he tries to seal the Dark One away and the Dark One slips his essence in Rand through Callandor when Rand is channeling the One Power. Now Rand and the Dark One are one and the Dark One is seconds away from being truly free. But the Light in side of Rand combined with his double wound makes Rand a surprisingly good prison for the Dark One himself and Rand is able to contain the entirety of the Dark One and gives Rand just a couple of seconds where he can hold the Dark One back from the Pattern with Alivia's help. Padin Fain steps in and kills Rand/Dark One by stabbing them in the heart and Rand dies Jesus style. Rand moves on to his next life where he lives a quiet existence since there is no longer a need for him and the Dark One is dead. Padin Fain is killed somehow and the people of Randland now have to learn how to live with each other. And hopefully Tuon becomes a Dammane and Mat marries that Fireworks maker.

Edited by Awakened
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Can anyone else think of a conflict resolution to the series that doesn't end in these ways

 

- Rand kills DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand permanently seals DO (Lets say its impossible)

- Rand seals DO temporarily (Which effectively means Moridin is correct)

- Fain becomes DO (Plausible yet incredibly unlikely scenario we've seen on the boards)

 

What else could really happen?

 

 

The flaw in Callandor becomes apparent when he tries to seal the Dark One away and the Dark One slips his essence in Rand through Callandor when Rand is channeling the One Power. Now Rand and the Dark One are one and the Dark One is seconds away from being truly free. But the Light in side of Rand combined with his double wound makes Rand a surprisingly good prison for the Dark One himself and Rand is able to contain the entirety of the Dark One and gives Rand just a couple of seconds where he can hold the Dark One back from the Pattern with Alivia's help. Padin Fain steps in and kills Rand/Dark One by stabbing them in the heart and Rand dies Jesus style. Rand moves on to his next life where he lives a quiet existence since there is no longer a need for him and the Dark One is dead. Padin Fain is killed somehow and the people of Randland now have to learn how to live with each other. And hopefully Tuon becomes a Dammane and Mat marries that Fireworks maker.

 

:biggrin: You do realize that you cannot "stab" DO to death? Even if it somehow "posses" Rand's body, killing Rand's body will kill just Rand! DO will just move on. It doesn't have blood, nor flesh. You are only stabbing flesh of a human. This would all make more sense if DO actually can walk the world in his own flesh. Taking over someone's body is like a ghost taking over your body. You kill the body and it just walks away. Worse, DO is Lord of Grave. Fain stabs Rand and DO simply keeps Rand's soul in his body. Rand can get stabbed million times and he still might not "die". My 2 cents.

 

P.S: Even if DO can "posses" a human body, I think that body would disintegrate in billionth of a second or something.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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So in ToM Min thinks she is on to something with this phrase from her books...

 

ToM "A Storm if Light"

 

light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized

 

Anyone have guesses as to what that could be referring to? Min seems to think it's a dangerous flaw in callandor but it could be key in what Rand ends up doing.

Personally, I think it was his VoG jaunt up Dragonmount.

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- Rand seals DO temporarily (Which effectively means Moridin is correct)

 

Moridin would only be correct if the DO manages to outsmart the pattern, which, until now (& who knows how many AoL & 3rd ages there have been) he hasn't been able to do. It makes me wonder if the DO is capable of original ideas.

 

The DO most certainly won't be killed or sealed forever, because he's needed to create the next 3rd age.

 

Let's say you have a bunch of rabid dogs & you live in a relatively big house. As night aproached, you'll let them out of their kennel& tie them to a pole close to the area where potential criminals are likely to enter. When morning aproaches you'll have to try to get those dogs back into the kennel. The animals WILL resist, but, since you're quite experienced, they'll fail.

 

The 3rd age is your garden at night. It's most certainly not the safest place to be, but it is that way for a reason (although I admit we don't know the exact reason).

 

Remove the dogs & criminals would have free access to your house. Remove the DO & who knows what might happen.

 

I don't agree. Power is only 'Power over...'. If the Pattern is destroyed, the DO would have more power over what precisely? I get that he wants to break his prison, but he needs a purpose

 

 

The WoT universe is about balance. The only thing the Creator is able to do (& wants to do) is, like you already said yourself, create. The counterpart of the creator is the DO. The only thing he cares about is destroying things (the opposite of creating things).

 

Another writer, R. Feist, also had a deity who'se only purpose was to destroy. He was apparently a bit smarter than the Do and managed to figure out that once he destroyed everything, there'd be nothing left for him to destroy. Still the only thing he could & would do was destroy whatever he came across. Eventually this deity went mad.

 

Maybe the DO is also mad or maybe the DO isn't smart enough to look that far into the future, but I don't think he's after power, he simply wants to destroy.

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