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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

She had to take a stance. And she made the right one with the knowledge she had.

 

And could she not have waited to have additional knowledge (which Rand said he would give her) before taking a stance? She still could have done everything she has done. She just wouldn't be making an instinctive decision.

 

No.

 

He basically showed no respect for her or the tower's authority, and said he was breaking the seals. And you want her to do nothing for a month? And when they get more info what can they do if they are right? They be unprepared to do anything?

 

The rest of the tower fears him. They consider him warbringing, murdering, madman. Do you think they would stand to sit back and do nothing while he destroys the world? There would be a new person on the seat by the end of the day. And who ever they picked would not trust him an inch.

Read TFOH again. Egwene's behavior towards Rand, the Car'a'carn, the Dragon Reborn, and the current ruler of Cairhien and Tear did not exactly exude respect. Compared to Egwene, Rand was being downright courteous. He treated her as an equal, which is more than she had any reason to expect.

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But he stormed into her tower as if he owned the place and dropped a bomb on her (ba-doom-ching!). What would Elyane say to him if he did that in Caemlyn?

"We need to discuss this further in my bedroom". :cool:

 

Ta'veren effects aren't always for correcting the Pattern - often they just affect probability in a random way. I doubt the Pattern needed everyone in that village Rand passed on his way to Tear to get married, for example.

 

I'm going to guess you're kidding, since she was furious just for offering her Caemlyn when he had taken it for her. She instead insisted on having a contest for the crown.

Partly kidding, of course. But I disagree with your assessment that Elayne would make Egwene's reaction look "extremely hospitable" in comparison. Remember that when Egwene first told Elayne about Rand's pan for the seals, Elayne's reaction at first was "They are crumbling anyway", not like Egwene's "we have to stop Rand's plan at all costs".

 

And Elayne insisted on a contest for the crown to prevent a bigger war in Andor, but that's a different topic, discussedtoo many times, so let's leave it at this and keep this one about Egwene.

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Rand shows up and says he's going to break the seals. He refuses to explain his reasoning, and basically admits he doesn't have a plan. So, the seals, which are holding back Shai'tan, are to be broken and then Rand will improvise. That should fill Egwene with confidence. OK, once the seals are broken it won't be an instant release for Shai'tan, but presumably the seals are holding Him back, delaying Him, so keeping them in place gives them more time to plan. Despite her opposition, Egwene gives no indication of coming up with a rival plan - presumably she'll think of what to do next after she's stopped Rand. Rand has manoeuvred Egwene into opposing him for reasons that are not clear - I have no idea why he couldn't just try asking her to gather all the forces. Of course, if ta'veren was involved in Egwene's decision, then the Pattern wants her to oppose Rand. Is that an indication that Rand is going wrong somewhere and the Pattern means to stop him? From where I'm sitting, both sides look pretty damn stupid.

Rand isn't speaking to just Egwene; he's speaking to an audience. Speaking to Egwene in private might very well foil one of his main purposes behind the meeting; to make the shadow believe the light is divided. He has to assume the shadow knows every word said in that meeting, and that it is privy to at least some of Egwene's letters to the rulers of Randland. Think of it as enforced method acting. Right now the shadow has every reason to believe that tFoM is going to turn into a confrontation between two major forces of the light. As Napoleon said; never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. The shadow might sideline themselves so as not to remind everyone that there is a greater enemy to be fought. The fact that Rand intends to force unity through an ultimatum, namely refusing to show up for TG, has likely not occurred to anyone.

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Just some thoughts from RJ on Ta'veren

 

Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview

 

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

and a small piece from another

 

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

 

- The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one. You aren’t born ta’veren. Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created. I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.

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lews therin. the greatest channeller of his age is reduced to asking his lover for clues on how to seal the bore. No plan, no strategy. Now that is wtf.

 

i await with baited breath for amol chapter where he goes 'AHA! NOW I GOT IT!' Something he clearly overlooked back in the war of power

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More like, Rand had a lot of things to do, to little time to do it and Min wanted to help, so he entrusted her with finding out what the books are hiding regarding Callandor and The Bore.

 

 

Actually, now when I think back on it, I don't think he's put her on researching anything regarding The Bore since TGS, she only seems to talk about Callandor in ToM, nothing about The Bore..

Edited by Manscher
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lot of things to do? right. like sorting the impending implosion of the black tower? where aes sedai and ashaman alike are getting turned? like gathering all the armies of the world at the fields of merrilor....oh sorry that's what egwene is actually doing

 

so other than the maradon battle what else made him so busy? so busy as to ask his farmgirl lover for clues on sealing the bore?

 

still i can't blame him. he couldnt figure it out 3000 years ago amidst the company of powerful aes sedai. may be min knows something that even the most talented man of his age does not know.

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lot of things to do? right. like sorting the impending implosion of the black tower? where aes sedai and ashaman alike are getting turned? like gathering all the armies of the world at the fields of merrilor....oh sorry that's what egwene is actually doing

 

so other than the maradon battle what else made him so busy? so busy as to ask his farmgirl lover for clues on sealing the bore?

 

still i can't blame him. he couldnt figure it out 3000 years ago amidst the company of powerful aes sedai. may be min knows something that even the most talented man of his age does not know.

Hell, the WT couldn't figure anything out given 3000 years. What a failure they turned out to be.

 

As for what he did during that month. Well, we know some of it, but the fact that we only got one very short POV with Rand is probably very deliberate. Having his POV would likely have ruined some surprises.

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lot of things to do? right. like sorting the impending implosion of the black tower? where aes sedai and ashaman alike are getting turned? like gathering all the armies of the world at the fields of merrilor....oh sorry that's what egwene is actually doing

 

so other than the maradon battle what else made him so busy? so busy as to ask his farmgirl lover for clues on sealing the bore?

 

still i can't blame him. he couldnt figure it out 3000 years ago amidst the company of powerful aes sedai. may be min knows something that even the most talented man of his age does not know.

Hell, the WT couldn't figure anything out given 3000 years. What a failure they turned out to be.

 

As for what he did during that month. Well, we know some of it, but the fact that we only got one very short POV with Rand is probably very deliberate. Having his POV would likely have ruined some surprises.

 

 

it's not the WT's job to seal the bore. That is the dragon's job. The WT successfully located the dragon reborn before black ajah and padan fain got to him. They have done their job for most part.

 

As for his POV well it makes no difference to me. Apart from maradon rand has nothing in the last book that is worth anything.

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No, the WT didn't locate him, Siuan and Moiraine located him, they both states several times that they would most likely be stilled if other sisters knew what they were doing. Which is also what happens to Siuan after Elaida and her cronies figures it out.

 

As for Min finding out what to do with the Bore, there is absolutely NO HINT of her doing that in ToM, it's all about Callandor there, not The Bore or The Seals.

 

And what he's done? Well the only thing we do know is that he stopped the famine in Arad Domane and restored order, he saved Maradon from complete destruction and he got The Borderlanders to follow him. We only know of what he did for 4 out of 30 days between his meeting with Egwene and the meeting at FoM and if I'm not mistaken Brandon RAFO'd a question about what he did rest of the time.

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No, the WT didn't locate him, Siuan and Moiraine located him, they both states several times that they would most likely be stilled if other sisters knew what they were doing. Which is also what happens to Siuan after Elaida and her cronies figures it out.

 

Actually Tamra(Amyrlin) sent Siuan, Moiraine and other groups of sisters on the hunt. With the BA killing them off left and right the search had to stay underground. Then Siuan(Amyrlin) took it over inside the Tower while Moiraine searched in the field. Unless you discount those two Amyrlins as being part of the WT, instead of representing it to the world then yes the WT did locate him. Siuan would never have been stilled without the BA playing a role and assisting Elaida(Galina helped raise her to Sitter, Alvarian plotted the overthrow) in her extreme miscarriage of justice which ran counter to tower law.

Edited by Suttree
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I was always under the impression that Tamra never really sent Siuan and Moiraine out to hunt Rand down, but rather that they both just assumed it was their duty to find him, since they heard the foretelling.

 

But no, I do not consider the action of 2(3) sisters to be an act of The White Tower, when most of the Tower would still them on the spot for what they where doing, and that fear of being discovered and stilled really has nothing to do with the Black Ajah, but rather the general mentality of The White Tower. Just as you can not excuse Elaida and the other sitters actions on the Black Ajah alone, yes they helped and send the snowball rolling, but it was still the majority of the sitters who voted for Elaida. Allowing her to Still Siuan and Leana, and kill Siuans Warder, before ever questioning their motives, proving just exactly how flawed and wrong The Tower and the Aes Sedai in general is.

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it's not the WT's job to seal the bore. That is the dragon's job.

 

Yeah, that would make a really good excuse once the Dark One is loose.

 

Like Spiderman said: "with great power comes great responsibility". It's not about the White Tower's "jobs", it's about their responsibilities.

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If it's the DR's job to handle the bore/seals/Dark One, then he's going to do it how he see's fit. You can't have it both ways. Fact of the matter is that he is the most qualified to handle it.

If by the time we get to FoM, the WT is able to present any alternative to breaking the seals, whether it turns out to be a better plan or not, then this whole opposition is perfetly reasonable. If, on the other hand, the alternative is nothing beyond "no you shouldn't", then the entire exercise would have been proven ridiculously juvenille.

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I was always under the impression that Tamra never really sent Siuan and Moiraine out to hunt Rand down, but rather that they both just assumed it was their duty to find him, since they heard the foretelling.

 

But no, I do not consider the action of 2(3) sisters to be an act of The White Tower, when most of the Tower would still them on the spot for what they where doing, and that fear of being discovered and stilled really has nothing to do with the Black Ajah, but rather the general mentality of The White Tower. Just as you can not excuse Elaida and the other sitters actions on the Black Ajah alone, yes they helped and send the snowball rolling, but it was still the majority of the sitters who voted for Elaida. Allowing her to Still Siuan and Leana, and kill Siuans Warder, before ever questioning their motives, proving just exactly how flawed and wrong The Tower and the Aes Sedai in general is.

 

Was referring NS Tamra specifically moved Siuan and Moraine to were they would see all the reports coming in and yes with the groups of hunters being killed that was the og reason for the search going underground. Have you read NS? That explains why they keep it a secret.

 

They would not have been stilled under regular circumstances. Don't forget that the BA were playing there little game controlling the sitters and it was only Elaida's sneaky politics with the help of the BA that made it happen at all. If the Amrylin is the one ordering something be done you better believe all the resources of the tower are on the problem, even if the Tower doesn't realize that is what they are working on.

 

That is just finding the DR though. Take it back a bit farther, w/o the WT's influence(Gitara convincing the Daughter-Heir of Andor to become a maiden) the DR would never have even been born. You cant just cherry pick away things the better AS have done while in the same breath say Elaida is representative of the whole WT.

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They would not have been stilled under regular circumstances. Don't forget that the BA were playing there little game controlling the sitters and it was only Elaida's sneaky politics with the help of the BA that made it happen at all. If the Amrylin is the one ordering something be done you better believe all the resources of the tower are on the problem, even if the Tower doesn't realize that is what they are working on.

Siuan and Moiraine themselves seemed to think that was a risk back in TGH:

 

The Amyrlin stepped back. "No, I would not give it up. Most of the time, no. But there have been times I envied that village goodwife. At this moment, I almost do. Moiraine, if anyone, even Leane, discovers what we plan, we will both be stilled. And I can't say they would be wrong to do it." [...]

Moiraine had known the risk from the first, and she knew it was necessary. That did not mean it was pleasant to dwell on.

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Ultimately Rand holds the trump card. Everybody knows and from what we can tell they also believe that Rand has to be at the last battle or the world will fall to the shadow. So Rand can threaten to simplay walk away from the last battle to the nearest portal stone if they don't want to agree with his plan. I personally don't think his character would do that but it is a credible threat. I don't think Egwene in particular is any worse than 99% of all men and women who can channel. They tend to believe that because they can channel, they are better people than those who can't. So I don't understand just Egwene bashing when it should include many others as well. The few exceptions I have found to this are primarily the wise ones.

If Rand doesn't show up for the Last Battle, then he and everyone he loves will die. That's not much of a trump card from where I'm sitting.

 

 

But he stormed into her tower as if he owned the place and dropped a bomb on her (ba-doom-ching!). What would Elyane say to him if he did that in Caemlyn?

"We need to discuss this further in my bedroom". :cool:

 

Ta'veren effects aren't always for correcting the Pattern - often they just affect probability in a random way. I doubt the Pattern needed everyone in that village Rand passed on his way to Tear to get married, for example.

I disagree, its been said time and time again in the books that Ta'veren is the pattern trying to correct its weave. Even if its effect seem random our limited POV prevents us from seeing what the pattern really needed sometime in the future. For example, in the village where Rand is where everyone got married. It might be that after the Last Battle there would be a massive loss of population and the Pattern is making attempts now to weave future threads in via a massive baby boom hence its effect.
As I recall, everyone in the village got married (save those who already were), regardless of age - so even people no longer capable of having children are now married.

 

 

Rand shows up and says he's going to break the seals. He refuses to explain his reasoning, and basically admits he doesn't have a plan. So, the seals, which are holding back Shai'tan, are to be broken and then Rand will improvise. That should fill Egwene with confidence. OK, once the seals are broken it won't be an instant release for Shai'tan, but presumably the seals are holding Him back, delaying Him, so keeping them in place gives them more time to plan. Despite her opposition, Egwene gives no indication of coming up with a rival plan - presumably she'll think of what to do next after she's stopped Rand. Rand has manoeuvred Egwene into opposing him for reasons that are not clear - I have no idea why he couldn't just try asking her to gather all the forces. Of course, if ta'veren was involved in Egwene's decision, then the Pattern wants her to oppose Rand. Is that an indication that Rand is going wrong somewhere and the Pattern means to stop him? From where I'm sitting, both sides look pretty damn stupid.

Rand isn't speaking to just Egwene; he's speaking to an audience. Speaking to Egwene in private might very well foil one of his main purposes behind the meeting; to make the shadow believe the light is divided. He has to assume the shadow knows every word said in that meeting, and that it is privy to at least some of Egwene's letters to the rulers of Randland. Think of it as enforced method acting. Right now the shadow has every reason to believe that tFoM is going to turn into a confrontation between two major forces of the light. As Napoleon said; never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. The shadow might sideline themselves so as not to remind everyone that there is a greater enemy to be fought. The fact that Rand intends to force unity through an ultimatum, namely refusing to show up for TG, has likely not occurred to anyone.
The Shadow has decided to move into centre stage for the final act - they are not sidelining themselves, quite the reverse. Consequently, the pretence (or reality) of division within the Light is no longer enough to make much of a difference to the Shadow's plans.
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If it's the DR's job to handle the bore/seals/Dark One, then he's going to do it how he see's fit. You can't have it both ways. Fact of the matter is that he is the most qualified to handle it.

If by the time we get to FoM, the WT is able to present any alternative to breaking the seals, whether it turns out to be a better plan or not, then this whole opposition is perfetly reasonable. If, on the other hand, the alternative is nothing beyond "no you shouldn't", then the entire exercise would have been proven ridiculously juvenille.

 

alternative plan to breaking the seals?

 

that's not the WT's position. The seals have to be broken. Every tom, dick and harry knows that. The question is what do you do after that? what's rand's plan after he smashes the seals and tarmon gaidon ensues?

 

Smashing the seals for the sake of it is no plan.

 

when he was asked by egwene, in her own words 'we should plan' he simply said 'right i am outta here please dont try to stop me'

 

in any other situation we would be saying wtf? But ofcourse he's the lord dragon.

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that's not the WT's position. The seals have to be broken. Every tom, dick and harry knows that. The question is what do you do after that? what's rand's plan after he smashes the seals and tarmon gaidon ensues?

I can't help but point out the irony here,that of YOU saying that while conveniently ignoring Egwene's position :rolleyes:

Edited by Zentari
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lews therin. the greatest channeller of his age is reduced to asking his lover for clues on how to seal the bore. No plan, no strategy. Now that is wtf.

 

i await with baited breath for amol chapter where he goes 'AHA! NOW I GOT IT!' Something he clearly overlooked back in the war of power

 

Why am I not surprised Egwene's greatest champion had managed to turn the thread away from Egwene. This thread has no relevance to Rand as it only deals with Egwene. Go start your own "Wtf Rand?" thread.

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I don't recall Egwene saying any such thing. LTT failed 3000 yrs ago because among other things he didn't have the True Power, since I'm pretty sure there's a better reason for him getting it than balefiring Semirahgue and Elza.

I have said multiple times that Rand isn't perfect and I criticize Egwene. I don't recall too many fans of Egwene admitting she's not perfection itself, but I have seen a few.

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that's not the WT's position. The seals have to be broken. Every tom, dick and harry knows that. The question is what do you do after that? what's rand's plan after he smashes the seals and tarmon gaidon ensues?

I can't help but point out the irony here,that of YOU saying that while conveniently ignoring Egwene's position :rolleyes:

 

None of us Egwene supporters are saying she's right, and that Rand is wrong. We're defending her actions based on how Rand acted. That is all.

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lot of things to do? right. like sorting the impending implosion of the black tower? where aes sedai and ashaman alike are getting turned? like gathering all the armies of the world at the fields of merrilor....oh sorry that's what egwene is actually doing

 

so other than the maradon battle what else made him so busy? so busy as to ask his farmgirl lover for clues on sealing the bore?

 

still i can't blame him. he couldnt figure it out 3000 years ago amidst the company of powerful aes sedai. may be min knows something that even the most talented man of his age does not know.

actually, he was busy mending what he has broken, giving strength and order to what he abandoned, revamping his image so that him winning won't be terrible. Some of the most important things for a leader to do.

 

he has been solidating his support, and asking his gf who shows a remarkable incline towards philosophical thoughts and ideas... your right thats madness! why doesnt he just ignore the world and dwell on that problem while it all slips into chaos. Besides if you ever took advanced programming courses you would have been told that sometimes new eyes is what is needed to fix a problem

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that's not the WT's position. The seals have to be broken. Every tom, dick and harry knows that. The question is what do you do after that? what's rand's plan after he smashes the seals and tarmon gaidon ensues?

I can't help but point out the irony here,that of YOU saying that while conveniently ignoring Egwene's position :rolleyes:

 

None of us Egwene supporters are saying she's right, and that Rand is wrong. We're defending her actions based on how Rand acted. That is all.

Way for missing my point.I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about Elan's comment here.

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I think I see where the problem is.

 

Egwene supporters are arguing that she is right to oppose Rand based on how he explained nothing, basically stated he had no plans for after the seals were broken and may still have sanity problems from her perspective. Egwene's detractors on the other hand are arguing that her decision to oppose Rand breaking the seals came far too quickly and that she is not even allowing for the possibility that Rand is correct.

 

To be honest, I think both sides have some merit. I really don't like Egwene, but her trepidation regarding the seals is totally understandable given the possibility of the Dark One's influence extending still further over the world. Neither her nor any of her Aes Sedai supporters know what might happen when the seals are broken, though undoubtedly it would be something bad. She is reacting exactly like any normal person would when told that an ultimate evil is about to be unleashed.

 

And therein lies the problem. She's acting like a normal person, rather than the Amyrlin Seat, leader of the White Tower which, for better or worse, has stood strong through 3000 years of history. A leader must consider every possibility and never jump to conclusions, which Egwene automatically did when Rand went to see her. She is not going to Merrilor to discuss breaking the seals, she is going there with her mind already made up with no willingness whatsoever to discuss anything. Even if your local Messiah figure is widely suspected of being insane, to simply dismiss his claims outright and never even consider that he may have a point is really quite shortsighted. Even when Nynaeve, Elayne and the Wise Ones claim that Rand has changed for the better, she still stubbornly clings to her own conclusions.

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