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Metaphysics of the Dark One


Morist
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Why does the DO want war?  

39 members have voted

  1. 1. Why does the DO want war?

    • Super secret dark ritual w/o any interference from the light-siders
      0
    • Needs to subdue the Dragon because only the Dragon can prevent him from escaping
    • Distraction for the light-side so that the DO can secretly do the real stuff
    • Cannot escape as long as there is a sufficient number of people who are "loyal to the light"
    • Suffering of common folk as a catalyst to break his prison
    • DO can only escape his prison if the Dragon helps him and converting the Dragon through war is easiest
    • Does not want really to escape and this is all just a huge playground for him
    • The whole war idea was created by Forsaken and Dark One went along to keep them happy
    • The whole war idea was created by the Dark One to keep Forsaken occupied
    • DO and the Creator have a wager that the DO can turn the whole world Darkfriend
    • Other
    • UPD: DO needs to weaken the pattern to escape (e.g. balefire)


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We know the DO is stuck in his fiery toilet pool of lava in SG and his Forsaken minions are breeding Trollocs, bringing them into Randland, recruiting Dreadlords.

 

All of this is to start a mass assault on the world and conquer it.

 

One question has never ceased to bug me: WHY?

 

Why does the Dark One need to conquer the world? Why does he need Trollocs?

Let's imagine his armies destroy the light-side armies, what next?

How will accomplishing that help him escape his prison?

 

Various possibilities:

  • He needs the remaining Forsaken to perform a super secret dark ritual w/o any interference from the light-siders and needs to subdue everyone first
  • He needs to subdue the Dragon because only the Dragon can prevent him from escaping, after that no one can stop him and he can take his time
  • All-out war is a distraction for the light-side so that the DO can secretly do the real stuff needed to escape his prison
  • He cannot escape as long as there is a sufficient number of people who are "loyal to the light" (they prevent his escape through "belief and order")
  • He needs suffering of common folk as a catalyst to break his prison (i.e. critical mass of suffering in the world will break his prison)
  • He can only escape his prison if the Dragon helps him and converting the Dragon through war is easiest
  • He does not want really to escape and this is all just a huge playground for him (i.e. he is having fun)
  • The whole war idea was created by Forsaken and Dark One went along to keep them happy
  • The whole war idea was created by the Dark One to keep Forsaken occupied until they are his completely, then he can use them to escape somehow
  • He and the Creator have a wager that the DO can turn the whole world Darkfriend, and then the Creator will personally free him (so DO decided to eliminate all non-Darkfriends)
  • Other (post your suggestion in comments and I will add it to the poll if allowed)

 

What do you think?

Edited by Morist
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I voted that the DO is using the DF and the shadow's forces as a distraction until he can escape the bore enough to obliterate the pattern, but I also want to add that he's relishing the destruction since he is the Lord of Chaos as well.

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I voted that the DO is using the DF and the shadow's forces as a distraction until he can escape the bore enough to obliterate the pattern, but I also want to add that he's relishing the destruction since he is the Lord of Chaos as well.

The phrase "Lord of Chaos" means something like a fool. The Darksiders use it to refer to Rand, not the Dark One.

 

As for the reason for the war, I think that Rand explains one reason in ToM: The Dark One wants to destroy the hope and will of those loyal to the Light. The Dark One depends upon the treason of those living in the Pattern to destroy the Pattern--on its own the Pattern is sufficient to hold back the Dark One, and he requires human beings within the Pattern to serve him to create the conditions for him destroying it--and this war encourages such treason against the Pattern. Some, like Ingtar, betray out of hopelessness. Others betray because they see in the Dark's war a way to gain selfish ambitions. The Dark One also needs the war to create the conditions for the widespread use of balefire, which weakens the Pattern and allows him greater influence.

 

I wouldn't rule out other reasons but both of those strike me as very important reasons for needing a war with the Light.

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opinion - nothing in creation can successfully defy the will of the creator, including the dark one. the dark one exists, as does all of creation, to serve the will of the creator, which is to raise humanity spiritually until it becomes so like the creator as to be unified with all of creation and the creator himself. the dark one, in challenging humanity over and over again, forces humanity to unite against this challenge, to resist the challenger, and in so doing, to resist its own desire to do evil. the dark one's actions actually drive humanity to become closer to the creator. in this struggle, and in the healing of the world that must follow any outcome, humanity gradually learns true altruism. not the kind of altruism that is based in egoism and secondary gain, but true altruism, bent only on seeking what is good for all the world and giving freely toward that goal. humanity ascends to the level of the creator, and the collective soul, rent into countless shards at creation, reuinites into one completely interconnected world soul. job done. lion, meet lamb. steel, become plowshare. the end.

Edited by cindy
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I voted for 3 options:

  • DO can only escape his prison if the Dragon helps him and converting the Dragon through war is easiest
  • Does not want really to escape and this is all just a huge playground for him
  • Other

I think the ultimate goal for the Dark One is to destroy the Wheel. The "prison" aspect is not important, but destroying what the Creator created is really important. The "escape" means access to the Wheel, and that will mean the end of the Wheel. Maybe not for all the souls inside the Wheel (ordinary afterlife?)?

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He wants to destroy the Pattern and create chaos everywhere. One of the best ways to do that is through war. Plus he wants the side of the Light to lose all hope of a future. It would be better for him if the people fighting him at Tarmon Gaidon are beaten in spirit, otherwise he wouldn't win.

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In my oppinion the Dark One needs channelers because he cant get into the Pattern without them. To break the Pattern, I think he must enter it, possess a thread thats already part of the system. He needs to grant them True Power access so he can possess them, he can only do that with a channeler.

 

Armies and such like are, as already said, a distraction. Distractions he wouldnt reveal are distractions until the Light plans on using the army. Its all chaos. If the Pattern is organized, its strong, and the prison holds. If he can weaken it by causing chaos, its easier for him to touch. Imagine a piece of paper on a table. Can you pierce it without first bending the paper? Maybe so, but if you can crumple the paper up a bit first its easier to grab and rip. Lanfear and Beidemon pierced the paper by accident, giving the Dark One new edges that he can pull at.

 

I voted converting the Dragon on the poll, because its like... time forms around the Dragon, if the Dragon was dark, time would be forming around him in a different way, one that helps the Dark One. If people starve like TGS threatened, there are less threads in the Pattern, less iron bars in the prison, the Dark One has more flexing room. If the Dark One could possess the Dragon himself, then the ultimate timeshaping mechanism isnt going to shape time around stopping him, because he has control over said mechanism. But I dont think turning the Dragon is the ONLY way, just the most likely to succeed.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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He wants help from the Darkfriends, and to destroy Light forces that could potentially clear the way for his resealing. If Rand doesn't make it to Shayol Ghul, the Shadow wins. Now, he can't keep Rand away by relaxing in his giant fiery toilet-the Pattern weakens as he begins to break free, and it's going to be blatantly obvious to humanity that there is a massive threat emerging. A Light counterattack is thus inevitable-the Shadow's only chance of victory is to be able to meet that attack and break it. For that they need armies. Everything the Shadow has aimed at has been to prevent another Strike at Shayol Ghul: raising Shadowspawn legions, instigating fighting between the Seanchan and Westlanders, between the Shaido and everyone else, between Black Ajah and true Aes Sedai, causing massive famine. The most important Dark plan was to drive Rand over the edge, guarenteeing he wouldn't be resealing the Dark One because they'd be fighting on the same side (Ba'alzamon's origional plan) or Rand would break the Wheel himself (the plan later in the series, right up until Rand's epiphany). All of this makes it harder to prevent Shai'tan getting loose, something that would be pretty easy if the Shadow just focused on chipping away at the Prison.

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Guest PiotrekS

I agree with a lot of the above comments - DO certainly has many games that he plays in order to free himself, but we have to remember he is a rather nasty deity.

So he encourages all these wars, killing and cruelty not only because it could somehow help him out of the prison, but also because he likes it. Remember what Rand said in ToM, the DO enjoys breaking people's spirit. If he breaks free, his motivation to do evil will remain the same, only his power to affect the world will increase greatly.

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I voted for "Other".

 

Maybe the DO is imprisoned by the pattern? Chaos is the anti-thesis of the pattern, so the DO has his minions sow chaos to weaken the pattern while eroding support for the light's champion by ensuring there is a correlation between the chaos and the Dragon Reborn.

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I always wonder what it takes for the Dark One to win. We have quotes from Jordan stating the the Champion of the Light has been turned to the dark, but still is imprisoned. Do we have any clues to how the Dark One can win?

 

 

??

 

 

DO can win by fighting directly. The moment he is out, war ends.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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I dont believe that the dark one DOES need to conquer anything, that the artifically created shadowspawn hordes are in fact nothing more than a tool of the foresaken (which the DO of course decided to put its hooks into)... world domination may be a plan of the foresaken, after all they are concerned with their own welfare WITHIN THE PATTERN. On the other hand the DO wants to destroy the pattern... tbh I think the foresaken are simply a little blinded by their own ambitions, to eager for their rewards for service that they completely ignore what it is that their master is after. At a stretch, I believe that the war against the light (for which the foresaken are just as much tools as the trollocs) is designed to bring about a situation where the confines of the DO's prison are in some way weakened (perhaps beyond that which the bore itself is capable of accounting for).

 

I have a THEORY that negative emotions such as envy, fear, hatred, despair etc (or perhaps some subset of those) somehow either strengthen the dark one or weaken its constraints (or both)... so if that IS the case, then perhaps the war itself exists to inspire those negative emotions, while those tools - foresaken, darkfriends, shadowspawn... - they are harnessed because firstly they are prone to such negative emotions and secondly because they act in such a way as to bring about those emotions in others. I believe this is the reason why the bore increased in size before the war of power (and perhaps since) and the eventual resurgence of the DO through the weakening of the seals.

 

So i voted for "Suffering of common folk as a catalyst to break his prison"... though i think that is only partially correct

 

 

edit: Oh and the dark one can win if it breaks free of the pattern (or perhaps destroys it - thats unclear) which has yet to happen on ANY of the 'worlds that may be' as seen through the portal stones... however we have seen ones where everyone that opposes him is dead - yet the DO was still imprisoned because he was imprisoned on ONE world... to be honest this is a major issue to my theory, but the whole 'if he is freed on one he is freed on all yet if he is captive on one he is captive on all' line is one that Im not exactly sure how to adjust for.

Edited by Stitch
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Belief and order give strength to oppose the Dark One. Chaos, fear, suffering appear to make the Dark stronger. I expect that the stronger the Dark is, the faster the Bore widens.

 

The Dark One also can potentially get the Dragon to think like he does, and blow up the world. Two separate ways that the Dark can achieve victory. Organizing betrayal after betrayal towards the Dragon, causing untold suffering the world to break the Dragon's spirit, hurting the Dragon physically so that he lives every moment in agony beyond what any normal human could bear, and hurting those close to the Dragon.

 

The Dark One's plan so far in the Third Age has essentially just been to build up forces while hurting Rand at every step. The primary victory method (to have the Dragon destroy the world) has failed; the secondary plan is now in operation. Cause enough suffering in the world to open the Bore wide enough for the Dark One to rip apart the Pattern.

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Once his prison is opened he needs armies, channelers, ect., to hold off those who might be able to seal him back up. As has been shown, the bore will gradually expand all on its own, probably giving him greater and greater power as it does. All he needs is for others to buy him some time, after which the Bore will widen enough to let him do what ever the heck he wants, including destroying the Pattern entirely.

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I think the 'Dark One' is really the good one. He sees humanity stuck on the endless wheel of time of Dharma. He is trying to eliminate suffering and free people from this endless wheel so that they can all reach nirvana. Since people graspingly cling to life by going to war he helps reduce the amount of suffering and helps him to succeed in his goal to end all suffering on earth. This is why Ishamael the wisest philosopher quickly came over to his side as he saw the merit and virtue in the 'Dark One's' goals.

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I voted that the DO is using the DF and the shadow's forces as a distraction until he can escape the bore enough to obliterate the pattern, but I also want to add that he's relishing the destruction since he is the Lord of Chaos as well.

The phrase "Lord of Chaos" means something like a fool. The Darksiders use it to refer to Rand, not the Dark One.

When? When do they refer to Rand as the Lord of Chaos?

 

opinion - nothing in creation can successfully defy the will of the creator, including the dark one.

How very Christian. However, I would disagree, firstly on the grounds that Shai'tan is not part of Creation, and secondly because the theological underpinnings of the series are not Christian - the dualistic theology is more akin to Zoroastrianism, for example.

 

Now, as to the topic at hand, I would say the answer lies in the Prologue to PoD. Specifically, the sha'rah game. We are told their are three ways to win: control the Fisher and guide him to your goal line, let the other side control the Fisher but force them to move it onto your goalline, and all out destruction. Given that Rand is the Fisher, attempts to turn him, or force him to act in ways that benefit the Shadow clearly fit types one and two, but warfare and destruction, aside from any assistance it might give to those attempts to turn or manipulate Rand, also serve to kill off lots of people. Thus, enough war and fighting leads to all out destruction, and thus victory. It might not be the best way to win, but if all else fails it'll do. Of course, there might well be other reasons for Him to do it, but I contend that at least part of the reason is this, to work towards eventual victory - by one means or another.

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The phrase "Lord of Chaos" means something like a fool. The Darksiders use it to refer to Rand, not the Dark One.

When? When do they refer to Rand as the Lord of Chaos?

 

The Feast of Fools

Celebrated in Tammaz (in Arad Doman and the Borderlands) or Saven (everywhere else), the exact day varying according to locality. A day in which all order is deliberately inverted; the high perform low tasks (running errands, serving at table, etc.) while the low do no work and give orders to their usual superiors. In many villages and towns the most foolish person is given a title such as Lord/Lady of Unreason/Misrule/Chaos or King/Queen of Fools. Not an honor sought, but for that one day everyone has to obey whatever orders, however foolish, are given by the chosen one. (Called the Festival of Unreason in Saldaea; the Festival of Fools in Kandor; Foolday in Baerlon and the Two Rivers.) Note: In Tear, Illian, and the southern half of Altara, the time between the Feast of Abram and the Feast of Fools is considered the most propitious for a wedding.

Now who do you suppose that the Darksiders consider "the most foolish person" or the "lowest person" whom they might decide to allow to "rule" temporarily? Whom do they want to spend his time making things worse through foolish decisions preparing the way for the "true" chosen rulers of the world to return? Is there any person but Rand?

 

This is what the Dark One means when he tells Demandred to "let the Lord of Chaos rule." He is saying, "Let the Dragon do this thing for now. The time will come for the rightful rulers--just me really, but let's pretend that you might be one too Demandred--to return, but right now we're going to let the Lord of Chaos rule and let his foolishness serve our ends." What ends were those? The Dark One and Moridin knew that the purpose was the destruction of the pattern. They wanted the pressure of ruling to drive Rand insane. But the others could plausibly have thought that Rand was simply meant to muck things up while they prepared their armies etc. to take over his dispirited subjects.

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opinion - nothing in creation can successfully defy the will of the creator, including the dark one.

How very Christian. However, I would disagree, firstly on the grounds that Shai'tan is not part of Creation, and secondly because the theological underpinnings of the series are not Christian - the dualistic theology is more akin to Zoroastrianism, for example.

 

 

while christianity may have its roots in kabbalah, the "theology" i opine here, while not completely kabbalistic (because there's no dark one in kabbalah, or anyone that could rival the creator, cause, he's like, the creator), is the nearest i can come to fitting the DO into anything that makes any sense to me. personally, i find it a bit silly that any "creature" could be outside "creation" by definition. and i don't get that from the books, but i do miss a lot, no matter how many times i read them, so. i get the belief that the DO's outside the pattern, which i take to be another matter, which again, i could be very mistaken about.

 

as for why kabbalah (and not christianity, not that there's anything wrong with that), that's because the WOT is chock full of kabbalistic imagery, vocabulary, concepts, what have you. and lots and lots of freemasonry, though i don't know how that relates to kabblah, as i do not build anything.

 

yes, i know the author went to a christian church. but he had all kids of ideas. and some of them were straight out of kabbalah, which doesn't leave room for any kind of dark one.

 

and now back to your story.

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opinion - nothing in creation can successfully defy the will of the creator, including the dark one.

How very Christian. However, I would disagree, firstly on the grounds that Shai'tan is not part of Creation, and secondly because the theological underpinnings of the series are not Christian - the dualistic theology is more akin to Zoroastrianism, for example.

 

 

while christianity may have its roots in kabbalah, the "theology" i opine here, while not completely kabbalistic (because there's no dark one in kabbalah, or anyone that could rival the creator, cause, he's like, the creator), is the nearest i can come to fitting the DO into anything that makes any sense to me. personally, i find it a bit silly that any "creature" could be outside "creation" by definition. and i don't get that from the books, but i do miss a lot, no matter how many times i read them, so. i get the belief that the DO's outside the pattern, which i take to be another matter, which again, i could be very mistaken about.

 

as for why kabbalah (and not christianity, not that there's anything wrong with that), that's because the WOT is chock full of kabbalistic imagery, vocabulary, concepts, what have you. and lots and lots of freemasonry, though i don't know how that relates to kabblah, as i do not build anything.

 

yes, i know the author went to a christian church. but he had all kids of ideas. and some of them were straight out of kabbalah, which doesn't leave room for any kind of dark one.

 

and now back to your story.

 

Doesn´t Christianity have it´s roots in Judaism... Kabbalah is just the Jewish mysticism branch? Oh and cen you mention some kabbalistic symbols in the WoT for the unenlightened?

I do think the Dark One is a part of the Creator, without him there would not be a Creator, it´s all about balance. Hmm I think..It´s hard cause we don´t know much about the Dark One or the Creator.. and what the people in the WoT-world believe may be false.

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Guest PiotrekS

I have always thought that the "theology" of WOT, if you will, had a strong Manichaean flavour. There is a strong dualism, the Creator is probably not omnipotent, the DO is almost equal to him and the fight is fought with proxies...

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