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The_Fnorrll_Reborn

[SG Faire: WT & Warders] Warders' Thread

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Before the fun begins, I would like to tell you a bit about our Social Group:

 

The term "Aes Sedai" means "Servants of All" in the Old Tongue. The White Tower and Warders Social Group has used the philosophy of Servants of All to create a social setting based on the hierarchy, purpose and set-up of the White Tower and Warders in the WoT series. This inspires the way in which we interact and some of the activities which we organize, although we are a social community and not a role playing group.

 

We offer people of varying common interests - related to the books or otherwise - a chance to find their niche with like minded people in one of the Ajahs or the Warders guild. Whether you are a Warder or an Aes Sedai (here males can be Aes Sedai and females can be Warders), at the White Tower and Warders Social Group, you can live out that philosophy and have fun doing it!

 

 

Now for the info you're after - since we have two parts to our Social Group, the Aes Sedai pathed members will be running a few fun games and events you can participate in. Head on over to their thread for more info!

 

Here at the Warders, we decided to run a discussion on the role of the Warders within the books, to really give you a feel for exactly what it means to be a Warder, as that is at the crux of our side of the Social Group! We will be looking at a few different topics which we will raise slowly throughout the course of the Faire, such as Aes Sedai and Warder interactions on a personal level and how the Warders "Guild" as we call it fits into the books as an organization. We would love to hear your thoughts on exactly what it means to be a Warder! The thread will be led by Vanion, our Sword Captain, and Fnorrll, his Master at Arms. Several of the members of our Guild will be involved so that you can really get a feel for who we are as a group!

 

As well as that we will be holding a couple of other fun games and activities you can get involved in back at our own boards, so keep your eyes open for more info on that.

 

Honour to Serve. Tai'shar Dragonmount!

 

Vanion, Sword Captain of the Warders Guild.

Fnorrll, Master at Arms.

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*drags her blankie over ready for a nice nap*

 

*puts on a party hat and starts throwing streamers*

 

*adjusts her spurs and then starts swinging the lasso*

 

*sits rather demurely on a nice rock in the garden and enjoys the sun whilst awaiting the strapping Warders*

 

*wanders in and plops down next to Moon*

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*walks in serinely, sees a few muscular Warders practicing the forms shirtless and giggles; sits down next to Moon & Key and whispers something about Hotties and giggles some more*

 

 

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*Walks in wearing what looks like a full arsenal. A sword at his left hip, two swords strapped to his back, and baldric of throwing knives across his chest and a long, slightly curved hunting knife strapped to his right thigh, not to mention various other blades hidden about his person.*

 

All right Warders! Lets get this Faire going!

Edited by Vanion

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*Admires Van's arsenal whilst waiting for him to start the Discussion* :biggrin:

 

If anyone's ever wondered why we Aes Sedai have Warders ... it's ... well ... they're real purty to look at :rolleyes:

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Alright ladies a gentlemen.

 

We're going to kick this discussion off!

 

So, the role of the Warders in relation to the Aes Sedai in the books!

 

Now, as everyone is aware, Warders did not exist in the Age of Legends. The theory behind this could be that in that Age, there was no need for the Warder bond. Male Aes Sedai weren't going insane and breaking the world just yet, and were able to work in concert with female Aes Sedai, linking to perform great feats.

 

In that time, there was no "Three Oaths" either, preventing Aes Sedai from using the power as a weapon. They could simply wield it at their own discretion.

 

Move past the breaking though, and the Aes Sedai have lost a lot of respect and trust. After all, it WAS technically Aes Sedai who were responsible for the Time of Madness and the Breaking. After taking on the Tree Oaths in order to assure people the Power would not be used as a weapon like that again.

 

These creates the need for a protector role. Someone to guard the Aes Sedai while they are venturing into the world. Thus, the Warder is born.

 

The Bond gives certain perks to the Warder as well. Speed being one of them, and a greater physical constitution. Also, the ability to sense where the Aes Sedai is, which would be handy if they were separated due to unforeseen circumstances. Especially in the aftermath of the Time of Madness, where much of the world was destroyed.

 

So, what is everyone elses take on the Warder role? Any other thoughts?

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what interests me most about the Warder bond is the connection formed between the two, the ability to feel eachothers feelings and such.

 

 

i've always wondered why it is Elayne had a hard time maskign her bond with Brigette, and how the Black Ajah AS were able to keep their Warders from finding out their were Darkfriends. in the case of a Balck Ajah bonding a non darkfriend, does the bond taint and turn them ...

 

 

also, i have to wonder if the effects of the Ashman bonds on their wives are different from teh Aes Sedia/Warder bond in any way and how the bonds between male channelers & female channelers differe from the bond between Aes Sedia and non channeling male.

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Interesting concept...

 

In the terms of the Bond's Asha'man use, based on the books, we can see that they have something of a compulsion aspect to them I believe. I am unsure if this is the same Bind type they use on their wives, but it was displayed when Logain bonded elements of the Aes Sedai delegation.

 

Similarly, when Rand cleansed the Source, I believe that one of the Aes Sedai with an Asha'man Warder drew on Saiden THROUGH that Bond and used it against one of the Forsaken. I believe that was how it was described. Could have been an error in the books. Can someone clarify that bit by chance? Been a while since I've gone back to that book.

 

However, it would make a certain kind of sense... It would be almost like a Permanent Linking of sorts...

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I always thought it was interesting that some Aes Sedai (i.e. Moiraine) bonded some men that were not trained at the Tower. Do you think there was any kind of tension between the WT trained Warders and the non-WT trained Warders when they met? Also, do you think those that were not trained at the WT then were required to meet with the MaA if/when they returned to the Tower?

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I agree that it seems the Ashaman bond to wives involves a bit of compulsion.

But I think the AS bond to warders makes the Warder slightly more receptive to compulsion from their Aes Sedai.

 

I seem to remember Alanna stating that after bonding Rand, she tried to "influence" him without success.

 

and Moiraine's silver coins to the Two Rivers boys in EoTW had something like the warder bond with them, and she tried to "influence" them to leave, and to leave without talking to anyone.

 

Rand was able to resist the compulsion both times [perhaps because he's TDR or perhaps because he's a channeler.]

But, i've always understood that the Warder/AS bond leaves a bit of compulsion.

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the compulsion aspect does kinda make sense. after all when push comes to shove the Warders tend to do what the AS say even if they disagree with it, like Lan stepping aside and letting Moriane get in harms way. but i think it's less of a compulsion like what Liandrin uses, and more of like what Rahvin uses, where the compulsee is more prone to suggestion from the compulser, rather than master/slave no questions asked type compulsion.

 

 

with Rand resisting Alanna, i think it has more to do with how powerful of a taveren he is tbh. or it might have to do with the fact that the bond was forced on him and how much stronger he is than Alanna in the OP. or, if you think Alanna is a DF like i do, it might have somethign to do with that as well; that rand is the ultimat good guy and less likely to be turned to the shadow, therefor the bond is weaker.

 

 

 

with warders not trained by the tower, i think it's kinda like the Wilder situation with channelers; only difference is, the Warders have a chance ot prove theirselves and earn respect depending on the feelings of the Master at Arms. with Lan, i don't think there would have been a problem considering his skill with the sword and who he is. but i'm thinking that a Warder who is bonded and not WT trianed would have an AS that wasntin the Tower that often as well.

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The Aes Sedai bond as used on non-channeling males does not have a compulsion factor as is. However, it is possible to "tweak" the bond in order to compel him slightly. This was mentioned only once, I believe, when Myrelle was waiting for Lan to come to her. The fact that Warders obey their Aes Sedai is down to the culture of Randland, and the oaths they swear to their Aes Sedai (reference Moiraine's bonding to Lan in New Spring).

 

The Asha'man bond however does seem to have a built-in compulsion factor. Logain mentions to the Red he bonded that the method of bonding was the same as what they did with their wives, but I can't recall off-hand if it's ever mentioned that the bond itself is exactly the same. Somehow I don't think the wives would be all that happy with it :tongue:

 

The coins Moiraine gave to the boys most likely had a "finder" weave placed on them, like Elayne later places on the clothes of the cutpurse they use to follow Mellor in Caemlyn.

 

With regards to using the "opposite" power: they don't draw on Saidin through their bonded. Rand linked with Nynaeve, for instance, and in one of the other circles which contained Merise, her Asha'man Narishma and Elza, Elza melded the flows.

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Its entirely possible that I am thinking of when she drew on Saiden, through her Asha'man holding Callandor. I remember mention of her drawing from the sword, through him...

 

Its hazy. Been a while since I've read that book, as I mentioned.

 

But yes, I do believe the Aes Sedai Bond has elements of compulsion as well. Lan is the prime example. It was setup so that if Moraine died, than the Bond would pass to Merise, and he was required to seek her out. Which he did. Through the most violent route possible lol

 

Heh.. Lan.. I love that guy!

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i dont tihnk the warders bonded outside the tower would have too answer too an maa or similar function in the books, that is the army structure that makes up the tower guard. A warder is an Aes Sedai personal body guard and would forfeit being part of the army even if he once trained with them once he got bonded, he or she answer too and only need prove themself too their Aes Sedai. Further more anyone could come train in the yard, with or without joining the tower guards eventually, or becoming a warder, as is aparent with the fact that andors first born son sworn too be the queens man too lead her armies train there, as was the two river boys able to train there when visiting. Some train there surely to go back too where they came from better swordsmen, some become warders, and some become tower guards serving in the army of the White Tower. I am sure all would follow some ground rules in the training yard, but ultimatly only the tower guard would in the end have too answer too the leaders of the yard, those just training temporarily can leave, and the warders answers too their independant Aes Sedai.

 

Could you not just see the political drama if not? would you as the head of an army try to tell any one Aes Sedai, let alone a tower full of them that their warder had to do anything? And how long would the Amerlyn who tried to rule over her sisters warders by giving someone else command over them last? The warder is not as such i think party too an army following orders of a general or answering too a master of arms, they are personal body guards who train in the yard with the tower guard, but their answer goes towards only their Aes Sedai I believe, if not they wouldnt function as well as a body guard.

 

Just imagine the scenario of the head of the tower guards trying to tell Nynaeve that Lan had to do something, they would get their ears boxed, or worse yet, try to tell Cadsuane her warder if she had one would have to do anything but what she asked, or prove themself too anyone else...I cant begin to imagine her answer...it just wouldnt work, these are women who advice and play games with kings and rulers all the time, they choose their warders themselves, and the thought of anyone telling their chosen body guard anything without them likely taking offence to meddling in their business...

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yeah i think i get what you guys mean about it being more of a "Finder" type weave. with the Warder bond and AS can always tell the general location or direction her Warder has gone. with the coins, after a certian distance the ability to tell where they were had disappated and Moraine stated she would have to be within a few miles to be able to locate them when Nyn asked about it.

 

Moriane also couldn't tell which of the boys had crossed the river, only that one had and was walking away from them. had it been a warder bond, i'm guessing she would have been able to tell it was Perrin. as Rand is able to tell which ball of emotions in his head belongs to which of his bondeds multiple times in the series.

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Get ready for our next instalment, which will be led by Raijin and Visar :biggrin:

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So we've talked some about the nature of the bond and some of the benefits the warder receives from it. One of the benefits I remember that would be handy would be to be able to function well with much less sleep or food (I guess that goes into constitution). I could do so much with life if I didn't have to get a solid 7 hours of sleep every night to function decently!

 

I'd like to know more about the attitudes and reasonsing of Aes Sedai bonding Warders. Why do they do it? What does an Aes Sedai look for in a warder? Are there Ajah trends that can be gleaned from what we know in the books?

 

I seem to remember that Moiraine bonded Lan because they had a similar calling to fight the Shadow and worked well as partners to that cause, fitting neatly into the whole Blue Ajah being about causes.

 

And while some Green Ajah sisters can potentially bond multiple warders, it seems to me that they would be most likely to choose a warder that works well with them as a fighting team. And it is in the Green Ajah that passionate/romantic relationships (or even just platonic relationships where there is some sort of mutual affection) tend to be most prevelent from what I recall. If you love someone, you're more likely to fight hard for them, and there might be that sort of choice going on in the decision process. That's my theory anyway, though I'm sure there are plenty of Green Ajah sisters in the books that don't seem to be extremely close to their warders in that way.

 

What are some other Ajah examples of their attitudes towards bonding that you can remember from the books?

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well we get alot of look at Verin's interaction with her warder Tomas in the earlier boks. he seems to be stnad offish as a person, while she's the typical Brown as to "seeming to be in another world the entire time". also she seems to see him more as a book holder and suprised at his need/willingness to go out and fight.

 

 

aside from that, i can't think of another one. we don't really see many Greys or Whites and the ones we do don't have Warders that i recall.

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From what I remember, Browns don't have many warders, since the life as a scholar does not necessarily lend itself to "needing" one.

Verin was a special case, because her Bond with Tomas was in part due to both wishing to redeem themselves.

 

It actually seems that Greens and Blues are the ones who have warders most often, while the rest, not so much.

Their Ajah missions (Fight and Crusade) Are pretty close, and would send the Aes Sedai out into the world more often, with more need of "protection" in situations where they cannot channel.

Which is, I believe, the strongest benefit of having a warder- protection when you can not channel.

 

Whites don't bond unless it is logical to do so.

Yellows: I don't remember many yellow bondings, off the top of my head, but I think that Yellows might need Warders to help protect them while healing in the heat of battle.

Grays: I don't think Grays bond often, but I imagine that when they do, it is out of diplomatic necessity. Perhaps they'll bond someone with connections to a place where they are acting as advisors.

 

And Reds: The early reds, being tagged as "man haters" don't bond. While many think this is out of hating men, I think that is not necessarily the case. The Reds are stand-on-their-own kinda gals. Perhaps the early Reds {pre-the series} saw the "need" of a warder as weakening their members. If you are hunting a male channeler, a warder won't do you much good, and may be a deficit, if that channeler kills your warder before you can act.

I like that they are now looking to bonding male channelers, as a shift in their Ajah purpose, I just hope it keeps them as fiery and independent as they always were.

 

 

 

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cant remember such details from books but generally i agree that for all purpose and intent the ones with the more use for a warder and finding it practically is probably greens, blues and yellows, and posible greys pending how much they are out and about and where, as some games for thrones can be rather leathal

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I find one of the most interesting pieces of information about the bond to be the complete lack of not only its use in the Age of Legends, but even of the actual mechanics of the weave used to create the bond. I believe it is Semirhage who is interrogating an Aes Sedai and her warder and she marvels at how the "savages" have discovered something that she didn't understand how it worked.

 

To me, all of this reaches back to the Breaking. Imagine the female Aes Sedai coming out of the battle against the Dark One at the end of the Age of Legends. For millennia, male and female Aes Sedai worked together with no restrictions on their power. Once the men started going mad, and we know that lasted several decades, if not into the centuries, female Aes Sedai still bore some blame for the breaking (remember that female Aes Sedai were among those helping drill the Bore that released the Dark One). The need for physical protection, even before the Three Oaths, would have been very quickly evident. I wonder who started experimenting with weaves to attempt to create what ended up being the bond. And was it started as a path towards the more compulsive aspects of the bond and simply settled out into the modern version, or was there an intent to create benefits for the men that agreed to serve the Aes Sedai in this - an attempt to keep the tradition of "Servant of All".

 

Interestingly, I don't recall any mention of the Ajahs in pre-Breaking discussions. Which makes some sense, since the Green and Red, at least, seem to have post-Breaking causes (The Last Battle for the Green and gentling male channellers for the Red). Given that the Ajahs must be post-Breaking, that means their attitudes towards warders would have been developed at least concurrently with the creation of the warder bond, if not significantly after its existence. After all, it's entirely possible that female Aes Sedai had been bonding men as warders for centuries before the creation of distinct Ajahs. That means that there might actually have been intentional philosophies behind the use of warders in certain Ajahs. The Green, obviously, would seek to foster an institutional attitude of acceptance towards multiple warders. Some might not have any specific attitude, leaving it up to their individuals members, like the Grey or White.

 

It is perhaps a problem of trying to tease out a universal truth about a fictional world that is only revealed through novelization. It hardly advances the story to spend several pages of text giving us the history of the use of warders in Ajahs that don't feature prominently into the plot.

 

Which doesn't make it any less fun to speculate! :biggrin:

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