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Mat alKaff

What actually is the Horn of Valere?

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No, it has never been stated that this is the final battle by any authoratative source. Ishamael, who probably knows the most about the subject has pretty much stated that it isn't.

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And, there's the rub. It all comes down to what Ishy said.

 

As we are all well aware, Ishy is not the most reliable source of information.

 

Ask yourself, "How would Ishamael know what he claims?"

 

There was a known history for Elan Morin Tedronai. A birthdate, childhood, education, and adult career before the Bore. Thus Elan Morin did not personally experience any of the things that he claims. So, in order for those claims to be objective fact, he must exist in an equivalent state to the Heroes of the Horn when in T'a'r, possessing access to all of his past lives and past memories. Further, he must be the counterbalance to the Dragon, present, and an active antagonist at all previous "Last Battles".

 

That seems unlikely. Especially since the Dark has obviously failed in every single one of those endless previous attempts to break the DO free.

 

"Beating my head against this here stone wall feels SOOOOOO good that I'm just gonna keep on doing it for the remainder of all time.", is worse than irrational. Not even the most confirmed masochist wants to get beaten all day every day. Therefore TG being just one skirmish in an endless battle is unlikely to be an accurate picture of reality. Not even Ishamael is so crazy that he could endure endless defeat. The human mind can't accept such a thing. He'd either become uselessly delusional, or simply go catatonic.

 

Far more likely is that the endless Last Battles, and the Dragon having been subverted and sometimes fighting for the Dark, etc., is just so much propaganda.

 

The Wheel may have turned countless times, but there was no Bore at every turning. And, there has been no previous Tarmon Gaidon.

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So, in order for those claims to be objective fact, he must exist in an equivalent state to the Heroes of the Horn when in T'a'r, possessing access to all of his past lives and past memories.

 

Or the Dark One could have told him.

 

"Beating my head against this here stone wall feels SOOOOOO good that I'm just gonna keep on doing it for the remainder of all time.", is worse than irrational.

 

Thats right. Since he's lost before several times, I'm sure the Dark One is just going to say "Meh ... freedom is overrated, I give up."

 

Far more likely is that the endless Last Battles, and the Dragon having been subverted and sometimes fighting for the Dark, etc., is just so much propaganda.

 

The bit about the Dragon converting probably is false, but the bit about the cycle of "Last Battles" comes from more sources than Ishamael.

 

The Wheel may have turned countless times, but there was no Bore at every turning. And, there has been no previous Tarmon Gaidon.

 

Pure, unadulterated speculation, in direct contradiction to the author's statements. I love it. Vintage Bob.

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And, we all know that the DO is totally tustworthy, so anything he might have told Ishy HAS to be true.

 

Ishy isn't the DO. While the DO wouldn't give up, Ishy would retreat into some fantasy existence where he didn't always lose.

 

Please cite your "more sources than Ishamael".

 

Certainly it's speculation. So is the idea that the Bore always gets drilled and Tarmon Gaidon gets refought in every turning of the Wheel.

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Ishamael was a philosopher--a world renowned one by all acounts, and trust me, that doesn't happen without thousands of philosophers going through your theories in the enth detail.

 

What im saying is that this sort of thing was his speciality. He WOULD know what he was talking about.

 

Now that being said, he would also lie... he was trying to convert Rand, not educate him. Propaganda would be present, but unless i miss my guess it would be distorted truth, not utter fabrications. The fact that we have seen other people, including philosophers (namely Herid Fel) state the same things supports this.

 

Its always been my assumption that that is where Ishamael's knowledge came from. That and incidents with the Dark One, though i dont personally see the dark One sitting Ishamael down and giving him an intro to metaphysics lecture. Still, things can be gleaned from experience and deduction.

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If everything was as set in stone as you seem to think, Jordan wouldn't have needed to create the Portal Stone Worlds.

 

They exist to handle all, including even the most unlikely, possible occurrences. Two such extremes would be one PSW where the Bore always gets drilled ( and redrilled ) with every Turning, with TG always getting fought ( and refought ) with every turning, and another where neither thing ever happens.

 

The "reality" that Rand inhabits is supposed to be somewhere between those extremes. The Pattern allows for the possibility of the Bore and TG, but it neither mandates them nor prohibits them.

 

Thus the Bore and TG may be sometime things or they may be one time things. But, they definitely aren't "always" things or there would be no need for any PSW.

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it was my understanding that the portal stone worlds were off shoots of the whell,not exactly nescessary for existence....with only three constants,the creator,the dark one, and the fact that the dark one is currently trapped in all the them.that the portal stones were made to tap into these worlds.they came in handy,aftre all thats wher the seanchan animals came from.

 

i think it betrays the whole nature of the wheel of time series if ther is no bore with every turn,if there is no TG with every turn,but thats just my opinion (and a few others) your free not to buy it...but as afore mentioned it seems to be the belief of pretty much every educated randlander that these incidents are recurring ones.

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