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What exactly did Demandred do?

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Also Rand still had a ways to go before he reached his full potential when he and Taim met, so it's unlikely that Taim is as strong as Demandred.

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So LTTs greatest competitor who went to the shadow because he was subordinated to LTT, and who made his first appearance in the first chapter of the same book- and Rand Al Thors closest competitor who was also relegated to be his second hand man and is repeatedly shown to be furious about it, and this parallel never occurred to Jordan? That bit of irony escaped him in a book book-ended by Demandred and dominated by Taim? Quite aside from physical mannerisms, referring to the Aiel as 'so-called' and 'renegade', Rand telling him to watch out for a forsaken imposter? Come on... If absolutely nothing else, you tell a reader (much less the author) about a powerful channeler that is incensed about serving under the Dragon and even despises being honored by him, who does that sound like? BAM- Demandred, instantly. Thats everything and the only thing we know about the guy. And Taim happen to be exactly the same in that respect. Jordan didn't realize that? No way.

 

I'm willing to accept the red herring theory, but the total coincidence theory? Really tough to swallow.

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Well, RJ said it wasn't intended as a red herring, so you either call RJ a liar or accept that theory is a non-starter. And I don't see what gain there is in lying. Maybe he really didn't see it, maybe he intended people to draw a different conclusion (Taim is like Demandred, not Taim is Demandred). But the man himself said that he never intended people to think of Taimandred, and he never planned that.

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Wait, people really think what Demandred did during this book was run around balefiring something important?

 

Don't read unless you want spoilers.

 

It's exactly what we saw. He orchestrated with Mesanna and Taim the capture, abuse, and release of Rand al'Thor. It was part of the Dark One's whole 'cause chaos' plan to weaken Rand's mind, to drive him insane, to increase his cynicism and suspicion and drive a wedge between him and Aes Sedai, and make him hate everything.

 

Edited by Agitel

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Well, RJ said it wasn't intended as a red herring, so you either call RJ a liar or accept that theory is a non-starter. And I don't see what gain there is in lying. Maybe he really didn't see it, maybe he intended people to draw a different conclusion (Taim is like Demandred, not Taim is Demandred). But the man himself said that he never intended people to think of Taimandred, and he never planned that.

 

Agreed. As someone posted above, RJ was looking at this story from a very different point of view. This wouldn't be the only case where what RJ tried to get across to his readers was taken the wrong way. The man seemed absolutely digusted with his fan base when it was revealed the citizens of Tremalking had committed mass-suicide due to the female Choden Kal's use at the end of Winter's Heart and a prophecy of theirs saying the world would end when "she" was activated (or something to that effect). He thought this would be obvious and profound, yet most of us glanced over it without a response.

 

I can tell you as an author myself (okay, so my "authorship" seldom goes beyond writing stories for RPGs I run) that many times something I think is important is disregarded by my readers (players). And, vice versa, something I include in the story as a triviality my readers (again, players) latch onto and think is an incredibly important detail.

 

I see it as very plausible that the seeming "connections" that tie Taim to Daemendred were never intended by RJ and instead were leaps of logic made by us.

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And the internet wasn't really around back when LoC came out right? So RJ would not really see the theory kicking around to know that people had the idea unless they mentioned it at book signings (which they did and he was caught off guard and surprised people thought that with). Personality wise, I don't think Demandred could disguise himself as Taim, then be able to fake being cool with Rand during the creation of the Black Tower with how much Demandred hated Lews Therin

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Let the lord of chaos rule quote which was only made by 2 people in that book,

 

Taim didn't say this until KoD. Long after RJ had disproved this theory.

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Agreed. As someone posted above, RJ was looking at this story from a very different point of view. This wouldn't be the only case where what RJ tried to get across to his readers was taken the wrong way. The man seemed absolutely digusted with his fan base when it was revealed the citizens of Tremalking had committed mass-suicide due to the female Choden Kal's use at the end of Winter's Heart and a prophecy of theirs saying the world would end when "she" was activated (or something to that effect). He thought this would be obvious and profound, yet most of us glanced over it without a response.

 

It seems I have still glanced over it. Can you explain this further?

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It seems I have still glanced over it. Can you explain this further?

Taken from the WoT Wiki:

The Amayar are the peaceful native people on the island of Tremalking... It is believed that all of the Amayar are now dead. When the female statue of the Choedan Kal melted during the Cleansing of saidin, the Amayar interpreted this as the end of the Time of Illusion and committed mass suicide.

 

In their view, life itself is an illusion, concealing the true life that is revealed after death. As such, the Amayar take little heed to the trifles of the outside world and instead live peacefully, since they believe that the current world does not truly exist in the first place. The Time of Illusion is likely what gave birth to the Water Way.

 

Although the exact wording of the Amayar's prophecies are unknown, the belief was that the Time of Illusion would end when the giant stone orb on Tremalking began glowing. The orb, in fact, was part of the buried female Choedan Kal, which glowed entirely during the cleansing of saidin. When the massive
sa'angreal
began to shine, the Amayar happily accepted the end of the Time of Illusion and committed a mass suicide of their people by way of toxic herbs.

 

The meaning of the suicide is known only to the outside world because the most potent herbs ran out and slower-killing concoctions had to be taken, allowing time for a few of the last people to be found.

“The Amayar were all dead or dying. Men. women"—her voice broke—"children…Everywhere I have been, it was the same. They gave their children a poison that put them into a deep sleep from which they did not waken. It seems there was not enough of that to go around, so many of the adults took slower poisons. Some lived long enough to be found and tell the tale. [...]

 

"Have none been saved?" Zaida asked. "None at all?" Tears glistened on her cheeks, too, but Harine could not fault her on that. Her own cheeks were wet. "None, Shipmistress.”

—Knife of Dreams, Chapter 22

Edited by FossMaNo1

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Agreed. As someone posted above, RJ was looking at this story from a very different point of view. This wouldn't be the only case where what RJ tried to get across to his readers was taken the wrong way. The man seemed absolutely digusted with his fan base when it was revealed the citizens of Tremalking had committed mass-suicide due to the female Choden Kal's use at the end of Winter's Heart and a prophecy of theirs saying the world would end when "she" was activated (or something to that effect). He thought this would be obvious and profound, yet most of us glanced over it without a response.

 

It seems I have still glanced over it. Can you explain this further?

 

I take it to mean that the mass suicide was supposed to be taken as a sign that the end is very close, because of the prophecy. A whole nation killing themselves because the end was here, when you actually think about it, is a pretty major thing. They did it because the Choeden Kal located in their land was activated, and to them that meant the end of time/whatever was imminent. In other words, the Cleansing was not merely a miracle of the Dragon Reborn, it is a miracle that came with a great price. His actions saved some but destroyed others. One shelters and one slays and all that.

 

Or maybe not.

Edited by Drekka Mort

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Well, RJ said it wasn't intended as a red herring, so you either call RJ a liar or accept that theory is a non-starter. And I don't see what gain there is in lying

 

Basically, you're right. My choice is to either accept something i find entirely implausible, or call the man a liar. I really think you have to step back and (indeed) look at it from Jordans pov. He writes a character subservient to LTT who goes Dark out of jealousy, and he writes a second character subservient to Rand who goes dark and is overflowing with jealousy... you might ask yourself if Taim is Taim and already undercover, why would he display such jealousy? It would be like a cop infiltrating a gang and being mad about not getting a high enough rank or whatever, not only does it risk blowing your cover but its crazy because you dont give a crap about the thing your infiltrating except to destroy it. Could he really write those two characters... in the same book mind you, and it never crossed his mind? He never considered what Taim was jealous of, assuming he already planned that he would be a dark friend?

 

As far as motive, if the Taimandred theory got revealed too widespread on the net (and btw there was a thriving usenet group that was the heart of all things WoT where all these old theories first sprouted, and of which Jordan was indeed well aware), what choices did he have? He could wait 7 more books for the most underwhelming reveal of all time, or he could change it. If he changed it, was he really going to tell his readership he did? It makes it look like he's making things up as he goes along instead of having a coherent storyline it takes 12 books to tell. It would certainly risk alienating a hardcore segment of the fan base. Its his story, he has every right in the world to lie about it to protect it. Why do we assume artists don't lie about there work... ask an editor if thats true.

 

So we either accept that an author renowned for careful detail to hundreds of characters accidentally wrote 2 characters in the same book with identical backstories, common mannerisms, and other unexplained oddities and never realized it... or the internet spoiled him, he changed his story, and lied about to not risk the credibility of his multi-decade franchise. The latter may not be true but I certainly dont think its impossible, or even outlandish.

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Agreed. As someone posted above, RJ was looking at this story from a very different point of view. This wouldn't be the only case where what RJ tried to get across to his readers was taken the wrong way. The man seemed absolutely digusted with his fan base when it was revealed the citizens of Tremalking had committed mass-suicide due to the female Choden Kal's use at the end of Winter's Heart and a prophecy of theirs saying the world would end when "she" was activated (or something to that effect). He thought this would be obvious and profound, yet most of us glanced over it without a response.

 

It seems I have still glanced over it. Can you explain this further?

 

I take it to mean that the mass suicide was supposed to be taken as a sign that the end is very close, because of the prophecy. A whole nation killing themselves because the end was here, when you actually think about it, is a pretty major thing. They did it because the Choeden Kal located in their land was activated, and to them that meant the end of time/whatever was imminent. In other words, the Cleansing was not merely a miracle of the Dragon Reborn, it is a miracle that came with a great price. His actions saved some but destroyed others. One shelters and one slays and all that.

 

Or maybe not.

 

Well I got that. If that's it, what was there to "get" for RJ to be disgusted with his fans with? Or maybe he was just upset that his fans didn't find it to be as profound as he intended it to be.

 

what did demandred do?

 

absolutely nothing. what a useless waste of space forsaken.

 

 

lol no

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we just haven't seen Demandred do anything yet. According to Brandon Sanderson, Demandred has done quite a lot off screen and is gonna be one of the biggest contributors of the bad guys in the last book

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I don't think Taim was ever intended to be Demandred for one reason: Demandred turned to the Shadow for jealousy of LTT. He could not stand being second to LTT, so why would he intentionally take on exactly that role as Taim?

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Well I got that. If that's it, what was there to "get" for RJ to be disgusted with his fans with? Or maybe he was just upset that his fans didn't find it to be as profound as he intended it to be.

That's exactly my point. RJ thought this plot element would be something profound us readers would wail over. Yet, most of us didn't pay much attention to it. This is a case where the author's perspective and ours were completely different--just like his take on Taim versus ours.

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Wait, people really think what Demandred did during this book was run around balefiring something important?

 

Don't read unless you want spoilers.

 

It's exactly what we saw. He orchestrated with Mesanna and Taim the capture, abuse, and release of Rand al'Thor. It was part of the Dark One's whole 'cause chaos' plan to weaken Rand's mind, to drive him insane, to increase his cynicism and suspicion and drive a wedge between him and Aes Sedai, and make him hate everything.

 

 

People can multitask, the kidnapping itself even if ordered and/or devised by Demandred would have taken very little of his own time. There is a pretty well laid out theory about Demandred and balefire. Apparently close enough to the mark one way or another that Sanderson has said people should be reading it and paying attention.

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we just haven't seen Demandred do anything yet. According to Brandon Sanderson, Demandred has done quite a lot off screen and is gonna be one of the biggest contributors of the bad guys in the last book

 

 

too little too late

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we just haven't seen Demandred do anything yet. According to Brandon Sanderson, Demandred has done quite a lot off screen and is gonna be one of the biggest contributors of the bad guys in the last book

 

 

too little too late

 

I agree with Elan. If Demandred is to be portrayed as a mean Forsaken, RJ needs to show us something. The little hint in LoC and a Dark One laughing hysterically about some uberbadass scheme that Demandred is plotting isn´t enough. Even if he is to be suberbadguy in the last book it will be too late IMO. There wasn´t enough build-up in hos character, not enough PoV in my mind to establish him as a bad guy. I´m still hoping RJ/Brandon can pull if off, but I´m doubtful.

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I feel like Demandred got forgotten for the whole series. Like Logain, he is an interesting and popular character who has done... absolutely nothing.

 

Both of them are disappointing because there was huge build up around them doing something epic, and thus far neither of them has done anything.

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Agreed. As someone posted above, RJ was looking at this story from a very different point of view. This wouldn't be the only case where what RJ tried to get across to his readers was taken the wrong way. The man seemed absolutely digusted with his fan base when it was revealed the citizens of Tremalking had committed mass-suicide due to the female Choden Kal's use at the end of Winter's Heart and a prophecy of theirs saying the world would end when "she" was activated (or something to that effect). He thought this would be obvious and profound, yet most of us glanced over it without a response.

It seems I have still glanced over it. Can you explain this further?
RJ said there was a big GASP moment in KoD. After the book came out, people were left scratching their heads as to what this moment was, until RJ revealed it.

 

 

Well, RJ said it wasn't intended as a red herring, so you either call RJ a liar or accept that theory is a non-starter. And I don't see what gain there is in lying

 

Basically, you're right. My choice is to either accept something i find entirely implausible, or call the man a liar. I really think you have to step back and (indeed) look at it from Jordans pov. He writes a character subservient to LTT who goes Dark out of jealousy, and he writes a second character subservient to Rand who goes dark and is overflowing with jealousy... you might ask yourself if Taim is Taim and already undercover, why would he display such jealousy? It would be like a cop infiltrating a gang and being mad about not getting a high enough rank or whatever, not only does it risk blowing your cover but its crazy because you dont give a crap about the thing your infiltrating except to destroy it. Could he really write those two characters... in the same book mind you, and it never crossed his mind? He never considered what Taim was jealous of, assuming he already planned that he would be a dark friend?

Yes, RJ did include a character who was subservient to LTT and went to the Shadow out of jealousy in LoC. That man's name was... Sammael! He also included a character who fits that description in TDR: Be'lal. So we have three Chosen who fit the description given. Why Demandred? OK, so Be'lal was balefired, and Sammael was in Illian while Demandred was a mystery, but there's still a jump between "this guy's description matches that given to three Chosen, therefore he must be one in particular, rather than a new variation on the same theme" and "hmm, this guy is a bit like a Third Age Demandred." Especially as theories about Taim being on his own side, not necessarily a Drakfriend were around even after KoD. It's more a gradual build up of evidence (some coming after Taimandred was shot down) that made Taim out to be a Darkfriend. And hell, if the Taimandred evidence was so compelling, why have some of the exact same points been used to fuel Taim/Be'lal and Taim/Moridin theories (and no doubt there are others besides)? "So-called Aiel" was, I believe, a Moridin/Ishamael phrase. Let the Lord of Chaos rule came from Demandred, but the last Chosen we saw use it before Taim does is Semi. There's very little to really link Taim and Demandred specifically.

 

As far as motive, if the Taimandred theory got revealed too widespread on the net (and btw there was a thriving usenet group that was the heart of all things WoT where all these old theories first sprouted, and of which Jordan was indeed well aware), what choices did he have? He could wait 7 more books for the most underwhelming reveal of all time, or he could change it. If he changed it, was he really going to tell his readership he did? It makes it look like he's making things up as he goes along instead of having a coherent storyline it takes 12 books to tell. It would certainly risk alienating a hardcore segment of the fan base. Its his story, he has every right in the world to lie about it to protect it. Why do we assume artists don't lie about there work... ask an editor if thats true.
If the theory was well known on the internet, so what? Even now, internet fandom is only a small percentage of fandom as a whole - back then it would have been even less so. If a mere handful of people guessed the reveal, then it might spoil it for that mere handful, but the overwhelming majority of readers would not be aware of the online speculation. Also, we have evidence of RJ making reveals of stuff that was guessed by the fans - Semi being Anath, Graendal killing Asmo, etc. So what is so special about this one instance, this one theory, that makes RJ so desperate for a good reveal he'll lie to protect it, change the story, but then never show any indication of doing this otherwise? As for lying, RJ was human - of course he lied on occasion. Some people do it more than others, or for better reason, but everyone does it. But what evidence do we have to indicate that he ever lied to his fans about the books and his plans (as opposed to just using RAFO)? None. And what eveidence do we have that he lied on this specific instance? Again, absolutely none. So the accusations of lying come across as an unfounded accusation for no better reason than people being desperate to cling to a treasured theory and an inability to realise that maybe, just maybe, RJ didn't see things in the same way as you.

 

So either we accept that RJ created in Taim a mysterious character, with elements of backstory similar to that displayed by some of the Chosen, with some mannerisms that are still unexplained, and some people got the wrong idea, or we accept that RJ for the one and only time decided to include a shocking swerve to trick his most hardcore fans despite there being no hint at all that this is true. The latter is decidedly more outlandish and implausible than the former.

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I feel like Demandred got forgotten for the whole series. Like Logain, he is an interesting and popular character who has done... absolutely nothing.

 

Both of them are disappointing because there was huge build up around them doing something epic, and thus far neither of them has done anything.

 

Logain isn´t disappointing. He is doing some major glory-stuff offscreen... lol. But I agree with you, I am still waiting for Logain´s awesome glory, and when you wait for so long, you imagine it to be really good. I have a nagging feeling it won´t be though.

Gods, I have no idea how Brandon is gonna make it all fit in ONE book without making you feel like you´re reading a comicbook...

Mr Ares: Wanna share what that big gasp moment was?

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Mr Ares: Wanna share what that big gasp moment was?

 

KoD "To Make An Anchor Weep"

 

The Amayar mass suicide.

 

As far as motive, if the Taimandred theory got revealed too widespread on the net (and btw there was a thriving usenet group that was the heart of all things WoT where all these old theories first sprouted,

 

This point always makes me laugh. Do you know how ridiculously small the portion of the fan base that would have been on usenet was?

Edited by Suttree

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