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Aelfinn & Eelfinn


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I apologize in beforhand for any spelling or error. Its my first time writing a topic so it will not look tidy ;)

Now to the topic :

 

I would like to catalogue all the answers and gift the characters have gotten from Aelfinn and Eelfinn. I will start :

Moiraine to Thom : " A quiet life would kill you, I think... Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the first oath, you know it for truth" ( TsR p, 272)

Thom later thinks about this and wonders how she knows. We know of course. She asked a question which gave her the answer that Thom will not die if he goes to Tanchico

Thus we are left with two questions

And two (items?)

---------------------------

We have Rands three questions also, and i do not know if we have gotten to know all three answers?

Please fill in more if you know !

Thanks!

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Very interesting topic, I think its out there somewhere catalogued, but ill give you what I know.

 

The Moiraine Thom thing, there is debate over it. I am one who tends to think that it wasnt because of the Finns question she knew it, but because of Min's viewing wayyyyy back in EotW. For 2 reasons.

 

1) Now I may have got this completely wrong, but I recall this scene was before she went through the doorway. She tells the girls that she knows who her husband will be better than they do when they are talking bout Rand/Lan and such after questioning the BA.

 

2) Moiraine would not waste one of her 3 questions on something so stupid as Thom, as much as she likes him, she is totally dedicated to the Dragon Reborn. You can bet your kids that all three questions involved helping Rand in some way against the Shadow.

 

So, for her questions, its anyones guess, although there are probably hints around.

 

As for Rand's questions, i recall two at least.

 

How do I win the Last Battle and Survive?

 

How do I defeat the DO?

 

Not exactly quoted, as he is remembering it.

 

The answers were, in order

 

"To live you must die."

 

the whole thing about the south and west must be as one. North and east must be as one. Two must be as one.

 

He also thinks to himself, there was more to it (possibly both of the questions) so we only know partial answers.

 

The other isnt quoted, but he asked something along the lines of how to clense Saidin.

 

For the life of me I cannot remember the answer they gave, but it is there.

 

 

 

As for Moiraine's wishes, well we know one, the angreal she has, but as for the other two, they are her secrets :moiraine:

 

 

Edit: Sorry for the vagueness of the post. Dont have the books with me at the moment!

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I apologize in beforhand for any spelling or error. Its my first time writing a topic so it will not look tidy ;)

Now to the topic :

 

I would like to catalogue all the answers and gift the characters have gotten from Aelfinn and Eelfinn. I will start :

Moiraine to Thom : " A quiet life would kill you, I think... Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the first oath, you know it for truth" ( TsR p, 272)

Thom later thinks about this and wonders how she knows. We know of course. She asked a question which gave her the answer that Thom will not die if he goes to Tanchico

Thus we are left with two questions

And two (items?)

---------------------------

We have Rands three questions also, and i do not know if we have gotten to know all three answers?

Please fill in more if you know !

Thanks!

 

There are hints as far back as TEOTW that Moiraine knew that she would Marry Thom, and that Min was the source of that knowledge. So what her three questions were is very difficult to puzzle out, especially because she recieved a letter from the Dream-Walkers and their foreknowledge clouds anything she knew and then going through the rings of Rhuidean also added to more foreknowledge, so it is hard to say what she asked. However we do know that she was very serious and concerned about the relationship between Lanfear and Rand.

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I apologize in beforhand for any spelling or error. Its my first time writing a topic so it will not look tidy ;)

Now to the topic :

 

I would like to catalogue all the answers and gift the characters have gotten from Aelfinn and Eelfinn. I will start :

Moiraine to Thom : " A quiet life would kill you, I think... Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the first oath, you know it for truth" ( TsR p, 272)

Thom later thinks about this and wonders how she knows. We know of course. She asked a question which gave her the answer that Thom will not die if he goes to Tanchico

Thus we are left with two questions

And two (items?)

---------------------------

We have Rands three questions also, and i do not know if we have gotten to know all three answers?

Please fill in more if you know !

Thanks!

 

There are hints as far back as TEOTW that Moiraine knew that she would Marry Thom, and that Min was the source of that knowledge. So what her three questions were is very difficult to puzzle out, especially because she recieved a letter from the Dream-Walkers and their foreknowledge clouds anything she knew and then going through the rings of Rhuidean also added to more foreknowledge, so it is hard to say what she asked. However we do know that she was very serious and concerned about the relationship between Lanfear and Rand.

 

When she told Thom he would be safe in Tanchico, she hadnt been to Rhuidean, so she couldnt have gotten the knowledge from there. I do not think Moiraine asked specifically about Thom, but perhaps he has an important role still in winning the TG. And i just cant see a scenario where Min knows that Thom must go to Tanchico?. That Moiraine knew she would marry Thom i can understand, but not the previous.

Thoughts?

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Very interesting topic, I think its out there somewhere catalogued, but ill give you what I know.

 

The Moiraine Thom thing, there is debate over it. I am one who tends to think that it wasnt because of the Finns question she knew it, but because of Min's viewing wayyyyy back in EotW. For 2 reasons.

 

1) Now I may have got this completely wrong, but I recall this scene was before she went through the doorway. She tells the girls that she knows who her husband will be better than they do when they are talking bout Rand/Lan and such after questioning the BA.

Yes, it was before - '"I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband." - and there is no debate over this. Pretty much everyone who is paying attention attributes the knowledge to a viewing of Min's back in TEOTW. I compiled all of the evidence for that here.

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I apologize in beforhand for any spelling or error. Its my first time writing a topic so it will not look tidy ;)

Now to the topic :

 

I would like to catalogue all the answers and gift the characters have gotten from Aelfinn and Eelfinn. I will start :

Moiraine to Thom : " A quiet life would kill you, I think... Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the first oath, you know it for truth" ( TsR p, 272)

Thom later thinks about this and wonders how she knows. We know of course. She asked a question which gave her the answer that Thom will not die if he goes to Tanchico

Thus we are left with two questions

And two (items?)

---------------------------

We have Rands three questions also, and i do not know if we have gotten to know all three answers?

Please fill in more if you know !

Thanks!

 

There are hints as far back as TEOTW that Moiraine knew that she would Marry Thom, and that Min was the source of that knowledge. So what her three questions were is very difficult to puzzle out, especially because she recieved a letter from the Dream-Walkers and their foreknowledge clouds anything she knew and then going through the rings of Rhuidean also added to more foreknowledge, so it is hard to say what she asked. However we do know that she was very serious and concerned about the relationship between Lanfear and Rand.

 

When she told Thom he would be safe in Tanchico, she hadnt been to Rhuidean, so she couldnt have gotten the knowledge from there. I do not think Moiraine asked specifically about Thom, but perhaps he has an important role still in winning the TG. And i just cant see a scenario where Min knows that Thom must go to Tanchico?. That Moiraine knew she would marry Thom i can understand, but not the previous.

Thoughts?

 

If she knows that she is going to marry Thom, then she knows Thom must LIVE to marry her. So she knows he will survive anything and everything, including Tanchico.

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Zigzackly - Moiraine's questions are unknown and we know just one of her bargains from the Finns - the angreal.

She had three known brushes with prophesy - Min, the Finns and Rhuidean - all offscreen.

She is also an accomplished eavesdropper so she may have picked somebody else's prophesies.

Min told her about Thom.

Her fears about Lanfear and Rand are clearly derived from the Rhuidean run, given the context and the way she described it in her letter to Rand - she saw the scene at the docks and sometimes Rand went away with Lanfear and came back her devoted slave, calling himself LTT.

She also knew about her captivity and rescue involving Mat and Thom plus 1.

Again, the way she describes it, with ifs and buts, makes it very likely it's Rhuidean-derived knowledge.

So we really know zilch about what she asked the Finns and what they replied.

For all we know, one of her "bargains" may have been the right to ask more questions of the Finns as well - if so, she could display more in the way of mysterious knowledge.

Edited by Sharaman
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Since Moiraine was granted 3 requests, what about Lanfear?

 

Perhaps one of her requests was along the lines of 'I want Rand to fall hopelessly in love with me'...

Moiraine said Lanfear was granted three bargains as well. We dunno what they were - or even if Moiraine knows what they were.

Also the obverse, does Lanfear-Cyndane know what Moiraine asked for, or even that Moiraine got her bargains?

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Lanfear didn't have the benefit of the ter'angreal in Rhuidean that Moiraine did (that we know of). I'm betting that she got next to nothing that was useful out of the deal. It will certainly be interesting to find out what they both asked for though.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just because they were sucked dry - does not mean that they were not protected by the agreements.... it just means that the two ladies didn't negotiate their OWN deals well while protected by the agreements. And I don't think that the burned doorways would have given the snakes/foxes much problem... however it could have caused the two ladies a problem in getting out if they werent aware of it being destroyed... (which they may or may not have been given the fact they were locked in mortal combat at the time)

 

Personally I am inclined to believe that Moraine never attempted to get out with her three wishes (given prior knowledge that she was either going to (or needed to) be their prisoner), while Lanfear on the other hand merely failed to do so...

 

At the time Lanfear fell into the doorway she was filled with rage towards Rand and/or LTT and his ladies (possibly thinking Moraine was one; which may have been the reason Moraine sleeping with Rand would have led to disaster) due to her perception that Rand had discarded her; so while making Rand fall in love with her (or else some key to retribution) may have been one such wish... the others may well have had to do with his lovers.

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what I find interesting is that they wherent protected by the agreements. the did enter thruogh a doorway and not the tower, so technically they should have been protected

 

I never understood that either. I figured it had to either be because ter'angreal was destroyed or because they shouldn't have both gone through at once. Even when Moiraine, Rand, and Mat were all in the other doorway at once, they did not enter together, nor did they see each other until they came out. I doubt the Finns would like it if you came to them with friends.

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I'm fairly certain one of her requests was something along the lines of "Tell me about this place". Of course with a better wording.

 

When she's out of the doorway she tells Mat and Thom about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, how they 'delight' in emotion. How does she know that?

She certainly didn't use one of her three questions on that.

 

Also, Moiraine didn't know you got three wishes beyond the second gate. She probably handled it better then Mat though.

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I'm fairly certain one of her requests was something along the lines of "Tell me about this place". Of course with a better wording.

 

When she's out of the doorway she tells Mat and Thom about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, how they 'delight' in emotion. How does she know that?

She certainly didn't use one of her three questions on that.

 

Also, Moiraine didn't know you got three wishes beyond the second gate. She probably handled it better then Mat though.

Other AS also knew about the Finns - Edesina for example, in KoD. Even the Seanchan had a garbled version of the legend around. there is info about Finnland scattered around.

It's possible Moiraine (apart from her running around Rhuidean visions, and whatever she learnt in Tear and from Min) would have researched the Finns at some stage - perhaps in the WT, or in Arafel when she spent time with the twins. Or maybe in the Tear library when she decided to ask the questions.

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what I find interesting is that they wherent protected by the agreements. the did enter thruogh a doorway and not the tower, so technically they should have been protected

 

 

Remember Mat went through the same doorway and because he didn't set a good price he was hanged.

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What I find cool is that Mat's character development is the same as The King of Norse Gods, Odin Allfather.

 

Odin wore a wide rimmed hat low down to cover one of his eyes, which he sacrificed for wisdom.

 

He hung from the world tree Yggdrasil for nine days upon his spear "Gungnir" to gain the wisdom of the universe.

 

 

Sounds exactly like what the Aelfinn/Eelfinn have done to Mat so far, and to top it off he also gained knowledge and wisdom from the encounters.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Why doesn't anyone ask for the Forces of the Light to win Tarmon Gai'don, for the ability to channel the True Power, to be the stongest channeler ever to have existed, for the DO to die, for the ability to kill the DO permanantly, to control all Shades...

 

The possibilities are endless. Why hasn't anyone asked for direct help in winning TG?

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I've wondered why Rand didn't ask the finns how to seal the Bore at least..

 

..but maybe, he did. And they didn't answer, but chased him out. Recall that we saw Rand backing out of the doorway in Tear, saidin sword in hand (TSR15). He was obviously defending himself against them.

 

As to why they refused to answer, it may be they considered he'd used up his allocation. Kudos to the person (whose name escapes me) who pointed out that his question 'How can I win the Last Battle and survive' may be taken as two separate questions - 'how do I win the LB' and 'how do I survive'. Certainly the answer they gave could be seen as two parts -

 

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.

 

"If you would live, you must die."

 

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/aelfinn.html

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Why doesn't anyone ask for the Forces of the Light to win Tarmon Gai'don, for the ability to channel the True Power, to be the stongest channeler ever to have existed, for the DO to die, for the ability to kill the DO permanantly, to control all Shades...

 

The possibilities are endless. Why hasn't anyone asked for direct help in winning TG?

The Finns abilities are far from limitless. They can do none of these things and asking for them would not have helped. In particular, they can not affect outside world at all. Certainly, killing the DO is completely out of reach. They also can not increase someones channeling strength (except maybe by giving them a sa'angreal) or grant them access to TP. Both RJ and BS commented on this in interviews.

Edited by herid
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Why doesn't anyone ask for the Forces of the Light to win Tarmon Gai'don, for the ability to channel the True Power, to be the stongest channeler ever to have existed, for the DO to die, for the ability to kill the DO permanantly, to control all Shades...

 

The possibilities are endless. Why hasn't anyone asked for direct help in winning TG?

The Finns abilities are far from limitless. They can do none of these things and asking for them would not have helped. In particular, they can not affect outside world at all. Certainly, killing the DO is completely out of reach. They also can not increase someones channeling strength (except maybe by giving them a sa'angreal) or grant them access to TP. Both RJ and BS commented on this in interviews.

OK, sorry, I never knew this. Is there some compilation of their interviews somewhere?

So they can grant material items, and that's it? What are the limits on sa'angreal, could you perhaps ask for another Choedan Kal-type one?

 

If they can suck your ability to channel from you (Moiraine) then I would have thought they could do the reverse, albeit grudgingly.

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Here's my take on it.

 

The Eelfinns aren't genies in a bottle that can grant you any 3 wishes you want. The Aelfinn only provide answers, and they're often vague. The things that the Eelfinn give have to be things they are capabale of giving, and even then they make you pay for what you want in a bargain. The price for each thing has to be something they consider a fair trade. This is why they considered Mat foolish to not set the price for his demands in his first visit.

 

Even if they could grant those things, imagine what someone would need to give up in a bargain to obtain them.

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Why doesn't anyone ask for the Forces of the Light to win Tarmon Gai'don, for the ability to channel the True Power, to be the stongest channeler ever to have existed, for the DO to die, for the ability to kill the DO permanantly, to control all Shades...

 

The possibilities are endless. Why hasn't anyone asked for direct help in winning TG?

The Finns abilities are far from limitless. They can do none of these things and asking for them would not have helped. In particular, they can not affect outside world at all. Certainly, killing the DO is completely out of reach. They also can not increase someones channeling strength (except maybe by giving them a sa'angreal) or grant them access to TP. Both RJ and BS commented on this in interviews.

OK, sorry, I never knew this. Is there some compilation of their interviews somewhere?

The best place I know is Interview database on Theoryland.

Here are the most relevant quotes

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfinn. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

 

 

 

Matt: Would the 'Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?

 

Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party ter’angreal, angreal, this sort of thing.

 

Matt: So, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?

 

Brandon: Certainly not permanently; as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability.

 

Matt: From a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?

 

Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of ter’angreal or…

 

Matt: …some item of Power?

 

Brandon: Some item of Power, something like that…of which they have great stores…

 

[what???]

 

Matt: Really? Heh, so the obvious question, where did the 'Finns get great stores of ter’angreal, angreal, and is that part of the Pact they made?

 

Brandon: RAFO…but if you just think about it, we don’t even have to go to the notes for this if you think about it logically, we know of them providing certain items of Power to certain individuals that they were able to match very nicely with certain requests very easily. If you run the statistics on that, it's either a huge coincidence or they have very many to choose from.

 

 

So they can grant material items, and that's it? What are the limits on sa'angreal, could you perhaps ask for another Choedan Kal-type one?

They have many objects of power (presumably from previous dealings with Aes Sedai) according to BS and they might have some sa'angreal among them but they don't make them themselves so they would not have another Choedan Kal.

Edited by herid
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