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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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As a gay man myself, I have to agree that I didn't go into reading the Wheel of Time thinking "ooooh, I wonder where the gay male characters are!!" and that really isn't how I live my life in the regular world either. I understand that for heterosexual men, it's hard to really become aware that gay people are around you, work with you, go to your church, hang out with your friends or whatever unless it's specifically pointed out. This isn't a criticism it's just that we live in a predominantly heterosexual society so a gay person sort of has to announce themselves as gay or people will just assume that they aren't. (unless you enter the room with a giant feather boa and sparkling glitter on your face, you know :)

 

The ideology in RandLand is that sexuality is simply how you express it. I think it was Toveine who said that Galina was kind of shocked that Toveine didn't return her advances after being raised to the shawl, but Toveine didn't go "EWWWWW GROSS GALINA GET AWAY FROM ME YOU FREAK!!!" because sexuality is an accepted expression in her mind. During her time as a novice, she found comfort in women, sure, but her core sexuality was heterosexual while Galina's was lesbian. I think that although there is (and perhaps always will be) the constant battle between the sexes even in RandLand, the idea that ones' sexuality has a core (straight or gay) and also leaves room for fluxating in various circumstances is something that the characters don't really think about; it's just something that is commonly accepted. If the Black Tower had been an established entity and the mens' wives or girlfriends were NOT allowed to visit, or the men were discouraged from having relationships as they trained like in the White Tower, then it's quite possible that they would express their sexuality with other men - that doesn't seem to be completely outrageous for sexuality in RandLand.

 

If there is a gay character that shows up in AMOL, then cool. I guess it would be like any other character who has an alternative sexuality, I read it and go "hmmm...that's interesting" but I didn't read The Wheel of Time so I could find gay characters; I read it because the story is the fight against Light and Dark and the writing is amazing and creative and these things are fascinating to me.

 

I will say, though, that I hope the gay male character is not Androl. I mean...a gay male who has an impossible Talent creating holes? come on now.

Edited by balefireruinssteaks
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Personally I think its Taim:) That's why he has never liked Aes Sedai and why he has his 'favourites'.

 

 

It is guaranteed to not be Taim. Sanderson said it was not a character specified to be gay by RJ, that he was working it in to balance out the story more in what he felt was correcting an oversight in the lack of a gay character. He would not take that liberty with a major character like Taim that could majorly effect the way people view his part of the story. He is the type of character that would have extensive notes about him, and if his sexual proclivities were unusual I am sure it would hav ebeen illustrated in the character sketches and notes done by RJ. It may be a fairly well known or frequently seen secondary character although Androl seems to be the most popular and sensible candidate.

 

I dislike the bolded and here's why: If in the course of developing a character, a point that would describe his/her sexuality comes up (the guard ogling the serving maid as was mentioned before, or whatever) and the author feels the character should or could be homosexual, then make them homosexual. What bothers me is forcing it into the story "just to have a gay character". The very idea seems juvenile, pandering, and a bit condescending. Frankly, it's poor writing at best. The reverse holds true as well. In fact, it holds true for just about any character trait you can think of. "We don't have a peg-legged pirate with an eye patch and a parrot. Got to stick one in there!" And this amounts to the same thing.

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I dislike the bolded and here's why: If in the course of developing a character, a point that would describe his/her sexuality comes up (the guard ogling the serving maid as was mentioned before, or whatever) and the author feels the character should or could be homosexual, then make them homosexual. What bothers me is forcing it into the story "just to have a gay character". The very idea seems juvenile, pandering, and a bit condescending. Frankly, it's poor writing at best. The reverse holds true as well. In fact, it holds true for just about any character trait you can think of. "We don't have a peg-legged pirate with an eye patch and a parrot. Got to stick one in there!" And this amounts to the same thing.

 

 

I always found that to be a huge oversight and kind of offensive myself. Bayle Domon, Egeanin and every Sea Folk seen being fully intact is a slap in the face to handicapable pirates everywhere.

Edited by Kal11
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Male homosexuals were alluded to in New Spring:

[in] the space of half a week, every last male clerk in the Tower had been dismissed without a character, supposedly for flirting with novices or Accepted, or for "inappropriate looks and glances," which could have meant anything. Even men so old their grandchildren had children went, and some who had no liking for women at all.
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I personally think it would be really cool if Tolmanes was gay. Yes, I know about him "loving several women before" but we never saw it. Plus, wouldn't he be expected to court women anyway being a high noble and all. I wonder what's society's stance is on homosexuality in WOT.

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I see this thread. I think: What, one that hasn't been locked yet? I have a look and see people discussing what they were meant to discuss in the original thread that got locked, and in a civilized way. What is happening to the world?

 

As a gay man myself, I have to agree that I didn't go into reading the Wheel of Time thinking "ooooh, I wonder where the gay male characters are!!" and that really isn't how I live my life in the regular world either. I understand that for heterosexual men, it's hard to really become aware that gay people are around you, work with you, go to your church, hang out with your friends or whatever unless it's specifically pointed out. This isn't a criticism it's just that we live in a predominantly heterosexual society so a gay person sort of has to announce themselves as gay or people will just assume that they aren't. (unless you enter the room with a giant feather boa and sparkling glitter on your face, you know :)

 

The ideology in RandLand is that sexuality is simply how you express it. I think it was Toveine who said that Galina was kind of shocked that Toveine didn't return her advances after being raised to the shawl, but Toveine didn't go "EWWWWW GROSS GALINA GET AWAY FROM ME YOU FREAK!!!" because sexuality is an accepted expression in her mind. During her time as a novice, she found comfort in women, sure, but her core sexuality was heterosexual while Galina's was lesbian. I think that although there is (and perhaps always will be) the constant battle between the sexes even in RandLand, the idea that ones' sexuality has a core (straight or gay) and also leaves room for fluxating in various circumstances is something that the characters don't really think about; it's just something that is commonly accepted. If the Black Tower had been an established entity and the mens' wives or girlfriends were NOT allowed to visit, or the men were discouraged from having relationships as they trained like in the White Tower, then it's quite possible that they would express their sexuality with other men - that doesn't seem to be completely outrageous for sexuality in RandLand.

 

If there is a gay character that shows up in AMOL, then cool. I guess it would be like any other character who has an alternative sexuality, I read it and go "hmmm...that's interesting" but I didn't read The Wheel of Time so I could find gay characters; I read it because the story is the fight against Light and Dark and the writing is amazing and creative and these things are fascinating to me.

^this! Ehm.. I mean, this, minus the "male" part.

 

I agree with Terez that it is likely to be Androl. I kind of think that this is a sad thing to be discussing,though. Firstly because i don't understand why we care. This, in all likeliyhood,will have no bearing on the plot, on who will live or die or die and then live and all of that. That we still discuss this so vigourously is maybe a sign that the world still is a little bit from where it should be. Yet, I discuss it myself, and moreso than i discuss plot related stuff on Dragonmount. In the world such as it is today this is an issue. It really shouldn't be, though.

 

Secondly because discussing who is most likely to be gay means accepting that characters with some traits are more likely to be gay than others, i.e. that some traits are more "gay" than others. I don't think I like that.

 

I have experienced earlier that I have some trouble getting my meaning through. English is my second language and I am not all that great at expressing myself even in my mother tongue. I hope I was able to communicate the basics of my thoughts, though.

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You expressing yourself has nothing to do with English being your second language, it has to do with you being Norweigan, lol. J/K

Jag älskar Norge... nej, men dess grannland! =P

 

I do agree with your second point, when we heard there was to be a gay char I think many of us went looking to see if there was any char that had certain characteristics that we interpret to be more "gay" then others. But that I think goes almost with any discussion, for example being woman or feminine enough, or how a child is supposed to be/act.

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I agree with Terez that it is likely to be Androl. I kind of think that this is a sad thing to be discussing,though...because discussing who is most likely to be gay means accepting that characters with some traits are more likely to be gay than others, i.e. that some traits are more "gay" than others. I don't think I like that.

In this case, it has nothing to do with that, and more to do with things Brandon has said on the subject. Androl is not in any way stereotypical. It's not a 'sad' thing to discuss, though. It's a curiosity like any other; we care because we care about the details in WoT, period.

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I agree with Terez that it is likely to be Androl. I kind of think that this is a sad thing to be discussing,though...because discussing who is most likely to be gay means accepting that characters with some traits are more likely to be gay than others, i.e. that some traits are more "gay" than others. I don't think I like that.

In this case, it has nothing to do with that, and more to do with things Brandon has said on the subject. Androl is not in any way stereotypical. It's not a 'sad' thing to discuss, though. It's a curiosity like any other; we care because we care about the details in WoT, period.

It´s not about the details, it´s about a character being gay and saying otherwise is... dishonest. If it was about the details then we would discuss why the Borderlanders don´t get any aid from the rest of the nations or the similarities between the Seanchan and Japanese culture or how the games of house really looks like among the servants. But a mention of a char being gay quickly brings a topic to 18+ pages. So it has nothing with it being a detail and everything with a male character enjoying sex with another man and falling in love with another man.

Edited by Logains Pet
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I agree with Terez that it is likely to be Androl. I kind of think that this is a sad thing to be discussing,though...because discussing who is most likely to be gay means accepting that characters with some traits are more likely to be gay than others, i.e. that some traits are more "gay" than others. I don't think I like that.

In this case, it has nothing to do with that, and more to do with things Brandon has said on the subject. Androl is not in any way stereotypical. It's not a 'sad' thing to discuss, though. It's a curiosity like any other; we care because we care about the details in WoT, period.

It´s not about the details, it´s about a character being gay and saying otherwise is... dishonest. If it was about the details then we would discuss why the Borderlanders don´t get any aid from the rest of the nations or the similarities between the Seanchan and Japanese culture or how the games of house really looks like among the servants.

We do discuss things like that, and all the time.

 

But a mention of a char being gay quickly brings a topic to 18+ pages.

That has more to do with the number of people who have a problem with it, for whatever reason, which is indeed sad.

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That has more to do with the number of people who have a problem with it, for whatever reason, which is indeed sad.

 

Which is what I meant. Bad at getting my meaning through, I did warn you.

 

Logains Pet, hvorfor betyr det at jeg er norsk at jeg ikke kan uttrykke meg? Hvordan visste du forresten det? Har jeg sagt det før?

 

I agree that stuff Brandon has said is what makes Androl likely. What I meant was that it is sad when people use steorotypes to argue that this or that character is or isn't gay, which very easily happens.

 

I have a feeling even this post somehow managed to say the opposite of what it was meant to, so i will shut up now, before I cause any more confusion.

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But a mention of a char being gay quickly brings a topic to 18+ pages.

That has more to do with the number of people who have a problem with it, for whatever reason, which is indeed sad.

 

Or is it sad you can't listen to any other reason than your own? Or that you would jump to the assumption that their reason is sad. It takes two to discuss things and closed minded comments like this will always kill a discussion. :wink:

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But a mention of a char being gay quickly brings a topic to 18+ pages.

That has more to do with the number of people who have a problem with it, for whatever reason, which is indeed sad.

 

Or is it sad you can't listen to any other reason than your own? Or that you would jump to the assumption that their reason is sad. It takes two to discuss things and closed minded comments like this will always kill a discussion. :wink:

 

My reason is sound, not sad... lol. I still stick to my own, that the reason is the topic of gay men, not that it is a detail as any other.

 

Hold On To The Night:: Jag bara skojade. Sverige hata Norge, Norge hata Sverige du vet =P Du uttrycker dig bra! Förlåt om du tog det som en förolämpning. Jag såg att du var norsk.. det står Norge under ditt namn =)

Now back to english before we get banned =O

Edited by Logains Pet
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Hold kæft jer beggebiggrin.gif

 

Lol! Don´t soil your tongue with those sounds. But I forgot.. you live in Skåne, you are practically dansk! :tongue:

Edited by Logains Pet
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Hold kæft jer beggebiggrin.gif

 

I think you have posted in not English before (if not you then someone else and that time figuring out the translation was worse); when you do please at least identify the language. That took me 5 minutes to get Google to translate :smile:, although I can't argue with the sentiment.

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I think the questions been answered, and after last time I'm not permitting fighting on the subject of whether it was right for Brandon to do this. If you wish to discuss the social issues of any minority being included in any form of media for whatever reasons, that discussion belongs on the debates and discussions board.

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