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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
The Fallen One

Fain and the Dark One

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This is the first topic I have started, so bear with me. Also, I have been lurking a long time, and have seen similar topics but none that touches on the same idea as far as I know. If this has been mentioned, please forgive me.

 

First, we have seen Fain change through out this story for various reasons including the Dark One's touch, the Ruby Dagger, and possibly Mashadar or the Black Winds or whatever it is called. He has become more and more corrupt and evil. He has also manifested many new abilities gained from his contact with these things. Also, during all of this, his hatred for Rand has grown stronger and stronger. Fain is becoming very similar to the Dark One himself.

 

The Dark One does not want Fain around, don't have any quotes at the moment, but I am sure someone can provide me some. Now, here is where the conjecture comes in. What if the Dark One we are seeing has not been around forever. Lets say that the last time the third age rolled around that there was a different Dark One and that the Current Dark One replaced him. My theory is this, that the Dark One is afraid of Fain, because he is aware that if he does not get rid of Fain or defeat Rand and break the Wheel than he is doomed to be destroyed and replaced by Fain.

 

Okay, most of that has been mentioned before, but here is what made me start leaning towards this idea. I think that there was a little foreshadowing of this in Fain's short POV during the prologue of ToM. In this short time we see that Fain has become a paragon of evil in his own right. Also, Fain muses about his old names and how he needs a new one. I think his new one will be Shai'tan after the Dark One is destroyed in some way and that he will continue his hunt for Rand by battling the Dragon again and again until eventually Fain is replaced by some other evil.

 

That is it, let me know what you all think.

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This idea seems to be a popular one, and I really can't understand why. I've discussed it before, and I've explained why I'd say it won't ever happen. I've given quotes on the subject as well. Fain can't channel, for instance. There are a few other reasons as well. The Wheel destroying aspect of the DO is way above the corruption of Shadar Logoth (think "The Cleansing"). So, no, I'd say it can't ever happen. Fain isn't dangerous enough to kill or replace the Dark One.

Edited by Nightstrike

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The taint destroyed Shadar Logoth, so I'd say Fain can't be absorbed. The DO has no physical body, whilst Fain has a mortal body. I don't see how they would ever "meet". (We know the Wheel will still exist at the end of this story.)

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This idea seems to be a popular one, and I really can't understand why. I've discussed it before, and I've explained why I'd say it won't ever happen. I've given quotes on the subject as well. Fain can't channel, for instance. There are a few other reasons as well. The Wheel destroying aspect of the DO is way above the corruption of Shadar Logoth (think "The Cleansing"). So, no, I'd say it can't ever happen. Fain isn't dangerous enough to kill or replace the Dark One.

 

I get where you are coming from with the channeling aspect, but I do not see that as important to the theory. We have never been told that the Dark One's powers have much to do with channeling, other than the fact that he allowed the Forsaken to channel the TP. I cannot really back this up, but I believe by doing this the Forsaken are channeling the Dark One's essence. If this is true, than would the dark one really need to be able to channel to use power that is actually just his own evil essence?

 

I know that there is not a lot to go on with Fain's powers to compare him to the Dark One, but Fain does seem to have his own power's at this point and we have only seen his power become greater. Not saying Fain will be the one to kill the Dark One, I actually think Rand will be the one to do it with the help of maybe Callandor, Nynaeve, and another female channeler. However, I do think that Fain will have an important roll in the process. If Fain were to be perfectly sealed in a new prison and had thousands of year to sit around and do nothing but hate the dragon and life in general while letting his power build until a new bore was drilled than he could essentially be a new Dark One. Plus, enough time would have passed for no one to remember Padan Fain.

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Rand killing the Dark One? Rand is a human. Even the Creator hasn't managed to kill the Dark One. The Creator and the Dark One are each other's counterparts. The yin/yang and all that. Rand won't kill the Dark One any more than Moridin will kill the Creator.

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The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Will Fain be in the next book?

A: Padan Fain will be seen again. He’s a mixture of two things – Mordeth’s power, which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow, and the Dark One’s Hound. Brandon said that Fain’s number one goal is to kill Rand, and a close second is to kill the Dark One. Now that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed, all of the Mordeth power that remains in the world is in Fain.

->With a fraction of the DO's power.

 

Austin Moore on Twitter - 16 August 2010 12:01 pm

Who is nastier in your opinion between Padan Fain and Isam/Slayer?

Brandon - 17 August 12:22 am

Nastier? Fain. But I think Slayer is cooler.

->Brandon thinks Slayer is cooler, and Slayer won't kill Creator/Dark One (either).

 

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

(video) Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

 

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: What is Fain?

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA

 

Q: Can the Dark One be balefired?

RJ: No.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

->Fain would have had to have been pretty special if he'd been powerful enough to kill/replace the Dark One. Edited by Nightstrike

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The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: Will Fain be in the next book?

A: Padan Fain will be seen again. He’s a mixture of two things – Mordeth’s power, which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren’t related to the Shadow, and the Dark One’s Hound. Brandon said that Fain’s number one goal is to kill Rand, and a close second is to kill the Dark One. Now that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed, all of the Mordeth power that remains in the world is in Fain.

->With a fraction of the DO's power.

Austin Moore on Twitter - 16 August 2010 12:01 pm

Who is nastier in your opinion between Padan Fain and Isam/Slayer?

Brandon - 17 August 12:22 am

Nastier? Fain. But I think Slayer is cooler.

->Brandon thinks Slayer is cooler, and Slayer won't kill Creator/Dark One (either).

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

(video) Isabel: When Mat had the dagger, Moiraine and Verin thought he would contaminate other people with the evil of Shadar Logoth, and they would contaminate other people. Fain does seem to be influencing without contaminating people. Is it as dangerous as it seems? Could also normal people become evil, and would they also contaminate other people?

 

Jordan: No. Fain can contaminate people because he has the dagger; it is the dagger. What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know. In other words, a lot of people believe they know more than they actually know. One of the themes I have running through the books is that whatever you think you know, some of it is almost certainly wrong, and it may even be the most crucial bit that is wrong. But even when you are aware that some of your information may be wrong you still have to go ahead and make a decision. You...you cannot afford the luxury of saying, well I don't know everything and some of what I know may be wrong, so I am not going to do anything, I am just going to sit here and wait and see if I can find out some more, because that only leads to sitting still forever.

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: What is Fain?

RJ: Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

 

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA

 

 

Q: Can the Dark One be balefired?

 

RJ: No.

 

As for the first quote, I think what is meant here is that Fain has a small part of the Dark One's power, not that Fain's power is only a fraction of the Dark One's.

 

Second quote, I do not see how this is relevant to this theory. Can you elaborate?

 

Third, same as the second quote.

 

Fourth, again, I am not sure that the channeling matters. Thanks though, I could not remember if Fain had actually gained power from the Black Wind or not.

 

Fifth, yeah I know he cannot be Balefired, RJ did not say he could not die however.

 

Nightstrike, in case you got the wrong idea, I am not trying to provoke you. Just like to debate.

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As for the first quote, I think what is meant here is that Fain has a small part of the Dark One's power, not that Fain's power is only a fraction of the Dark One's.

The taint came through the Bore. It was only a fraction of the Dark One's power, and it annihilated Shadar Logoth. Shadar Logoth was a fraction of the Wheel, which the Dark One can destroy. Shadar Logoth could not destroy the Wheel, even from within.

 

Second quote, I do not see how this is relevant to this theory. Can you elaborate?

You'd have to be pretty cool if you can kill/replace the Dark One. Much cooler than Slayer, anyway.

 

Fourth, again, I am not sure that the channeling matters. Thanks though, I could not remember if Fain had actually gained power from the Black Wind or not.

No, "professional courtesy".

 

Fifth, yeah I know he cannot be Balefired, RJ did not say he could not die however.

I can't see how it could be done, if the Creator can't do it.

 

Nightstrike, in case you got the wrong idea, I am not trying to provoke you. Just like to debate.

Same here. :smile:

Edited by Nightstrike

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I am with Nightstrike here. No offence to the OP, but i have always HATED any theory to do with Fain killing or becomming the DO.

 

I am not saying it cant happen in terms of the plot, I am just saying that from a theoretical PoV, looking at all of the "rules" of the Wheel of Time, it is impossible.

 

As Nightstrike said, the DO is not of the pattern, he is one of two entities that is not bound, the other being the creator. Not even the creator can destroy the DO, it had to seal the DO away.

 

Fain is only a small part of the pattern. He is definitely unique, but he is no Creator, and certainly not ABOVE the creator.

 

The DO literally has his own Channeling power. The TP. He can DESTROY THE PATTERN ITSELF. The bore is actually quite small, he was never actually free in the AoL, he could just fit his proverbial "hand" through the bore. The seals still hold up until now, although they are very weak. Considering all of this, LOOK AT WHAT THE DO is doing to the world! Dead walking, pattern unravelling, and its not even a fraction of what he can do.

 

Fain is just one madman with a bit of power. Shadar Logoth, while pretty cool, is no match for the DO.

 

As I said, I am not saying that it WONT happen. I very much fear that fain will do something like this. But technically, it CANT happen.

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^^I have a feeling that SH will meet his end at the hand of Mordain and vice versa. Both are unique in this age and both are going to kill each other.

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Nightstrike, I see what you mean about Brandon's quote about Slayer and Fain, however I do not think that BS's personal opinion about Slayer being cooler has much to do with either of the character's roles in the conclusion. Could just mean that he likes the concept of Slayer over Fain.

 

As for the Dark One being able to die or not, I have to concede that I do not see how it can be done, but in TGS Rand did state it as a possible goal. Rand may not have mentioned it again in ToM, but he could still be thinking about it. I guess we will just have to wait and see his mind set on the subject when we actually get some PoVs from him in AMoL.

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This idea seems to be a popular one, and I really can't understand why. I've discussed it before, and I've explained why I'd say it won't ever happen. I've given quotes on the subject as well. Fain can't channel, for instance. There are a few other reasons as well. The Wheel destroying aspect of the DO is way above the corruption of Shadar Logoth (think "The Cleansing"). So, no, I'd say it can't ever happen. Fain isn't dangerous enough to kill or replace the Dark One.

Let's see...

 

Fain has a lot more power than channelers, I don't see how him channeling has any influence on this topic. He shows signs of having his own kind of power, in his own right, that people of another age could call "True Power". who knows.

As the OP said, he has been changing/getting more powerfull really fast. Who knows what he looks like now? Who knows what he'll be capable of when he reches the pit of doom ?

 

He clearly is the "third guy" in this game, so these kind of theories make perfect sense. Other theories also make sense... that's the point !

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Fain certainly has weird powers - "more than channelers" may be putting it too strongly. His powers are different -and he controls mashadar of course.

But he's vulnerable to channeling, he can't even sense it, nor can he enter TAR (that we know of), he could be killed fairly easily by a hidden channeler or by a physical assailant surprising him by jumping out of TAR.

BTW Does the GLoD explicitly want Fain killed, or it Ishamel-Moridin acting on his own initiative as far as we can tell from the narrative?

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Fain's power is not the True Power, for we have seen that one must weave the True Power and that channelers càn be taught to weave it. Mordeth's power drives normal people insane, instead of given them power. The True Power is addictive, far more addictive than the One Power, but that is different from the possessive nature of the effects of Mordeth's power, as we have seen with Mat. The level of addictiveness linked to the True Power only comes from 'using' it. The more a channeler uses it, the more he becomes addicted to it. With Mordeth's power the insanity comes whether one is channeling or not. The corruption grows, even if one doesn't do anything with it. It acts like a bacteria spreading on it's own, rather than a drug as the True (and One) Power are explained to be. The only reason it's not killing Fain is because he's possessed by Mordeth who is made of that power, which is the evil that is 'man'-made (as per RJ's own words). Neither the One nor the True Power are man-made, therefore Mordeth's power can never be the True Power.

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I've also entertained the idea that the DO and Mordeth may end up merged somehow. I've posted my thoughts on this here: link

 

Granted, it's a purely theoretical idea and may not hold in WOT. But if Fain somehow manages to kill teh DO that would greatly reduce the menace of the DO as being the Creator's counterpole. And I doubt RJ would have gone that route.

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We have been told that something needs to 'touch' the dark one in order for the seal to be made, maybe that is what Fain will be a vehicle for.

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We have been told that something needs to 'touch' the dark one in order for the seal to be made, maybe that is what Fain will be a vehicle for.

If that's the only way to undo the Bore, then the "Shadar Logoth" concept ("Mordeth", or the "Dagger") must have existed every previous turning of the Wheel. It's possible, but I think it will be done some other way. We can't tell for sure. Maybe something needs to touch the DO, or maybe the Bore will just heal up, if there's Ogier/Aiel/something else there to help with the undoing. Edited by Nightstrike

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Creator used his mojo to build prison for DO. It's not "power" built (Saidar/Saidin) or DO would have destroyed it long time ago. So how to "heal" something you don't even understand? I bet Moiraine has the answer.

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If that's the only way to undo the Bore, then the "Shadar Logoth" concept ("Mordeth", or the "Dagger") must have existed every previous turning of the Wheel. It's possible, but I think it will be done some other way. We can't tell for sure. Maybe something needs to touch the DO, or maybe the Bore will just heal up, if there's Ogier/Aiel/something else there to help with the undoing.

Last time, it was Saidin that was used and therefore tainted; each time the wheel turns and the age comes about once again, it is not the same events just similar... so something was used to seal away the dark one.... perhaps in previous ages they didnt even have something touching Him, or perhaps whatever was used no longer exists; we will never know (probably).

 

Creator used his mojo to build prison for DO. It's not "power" built (Saidar/Saidin) or DO would have destroyed it long time ago. So how to "heal" something you don't even understand? I bet Moiraine has the answer.

The creator's power... now THERE is an interesting discussion... Personally I like the idea the creator uses the 'True Power' (yes DO's uber evilness), then again I ascribe to the theory that the Dark One is the Creator gone mad

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Something needs to touch the Dark One in his prison, so that the One Power does not.

 

Right now, my guess is that something that gets stuffed down the Bore like wax sealing in a jar is Fain.

Edited by Hopefire

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Pet theory I'm working on...

 

Rand will die thanks to Fain. Fain will then distract the DO for the time being. Nyn and company will go in TAR and bring him back. To do this, you need the creator's power. They will travel by need in TAR and be forced to travel by boat to the right place. Underneath the boat is not water /Min's vision, but the creator's power (like seen in the eye of the world). The superwomen will revive Rand using this power and we will meet SuperRand (who is born literally of the creator's power) who has access to the creator's power. This is where my theory kinda needs more work. A. He will not be reborn in a body and will literally become one with the land. The land he creates will become the seal. B. He will simply use creator's power to create the seal and have superbabies.

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Not even the creator can destroy the DO, it had to seal the DO away.

 

Where is this in the books? I thought it was clear that the Creator could destroy the DO but didn't and doesn't because the DO is necessary to the Creator's pattern (need both light and dark for the weave).

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