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The ways


Will the ways be cleansed in the end?  

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  1. 1. Will the ways be cleansed?



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Since the cleansing of saidan, I'm just curious if somehow that'll leech the energy from the black wind and cause the ways to grow green again.

 

What do you think? :) I sure hope so...considering the ways have been mentioned in about every book.

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I voted "maybe" because I don't think they'll heal on their own, but I do think that male channelers could go and fix them now with the "talisman of growing" or whatever it's called and with the cleansed male half. So, no, they won't heal on their own, yes, they can BE healed.

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I voted "will be destroyed". Recently, it seems that darkfriends and shadowspawn have been the only ones using them and there is evidence (depending on who you talk to) of Demandred moving his armies through them. With that in mind, I have a feeling that they will be destroyed by the forces of light in some sort of trap or otherwise desparate manuver to take as many down as they can in one foul swoop. Loial is gonna be pissed...

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I voted "will be destroyed". Recently, it seems that darkfriends and shadowspawn have been the only ones using them and there is evidence (depending on who you talk to) of Demandred moving his armies through them. With that in mind, I have a feeling that they will be destroyed by the forces of light in some sort of trap or otherwise desparate manuver to take as many down as they can in one foul swoop. Loial is gonna be pissed...

The thing that allows the dark side to use the Ways is that the dark leaders are willing to accept some "shipping loss" in the same way that egg producers know that some eggs are lost in transit. The egg producer cares about the resource waste in shipping, but doesn't get emotionally involved in the loss of the individual eggs. The dark side knows that they need to send 2 or 3 fists into the system to get 1 fist out. The Chosen might care about the resources represented by the Trollocs, but they don't have any emotional or moral investment in the Trollocs themselves.

 

I think the Ways would be pretty hard to destroy. Realistically "killed" is probably more accurate than "destroyed." I am not sure if the light would be willing to go to the effort unless there was a huge strategic payoff. A few dozen fists of trollocs popping out here and there probably isn't worth the effort, especially since the dark side seems to have figured out how to use portal stones to move shadowspawn. Portal stones are potentially more useful than the Ways, so shutting down the Ways would have limited payoff.

 

The waygates are supposedly warded. That raises the question in my mind about how the trollocs are getting through the Caemlyn waygate. There are two possibilities. One is that the dark forces have discovered and learned how to defeat the ward Rand had placed on the waygates. In that case I wonder why RJ went to the trouble of having Rand send out the Team Waygate. The other possibility is that the ward is still in place. The ward was supposed to kill shadowspawn that passed through it, but it was a delayed reaction. If the ward is still working, then the fires might have been started before the ward killed the emerging trollocs. In that case the battle in Caemlyn is likely to be mercifully brief as the trollocs die from the effects of the ward. (A third possibility is that Loial missed the waygate in Caemlyn, but that seems highly unlikely.)

 

If the Ogier play an important role in the last battle then I would not be surprised to see light-siders try to clean the Ways as thanks to the Ogier. However, there are so many topics that must be covered in AMOL that I doubt that it will happen there unless it is incidental.

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Since the cleansing of saidan, I'm just curious if somehow that'll leech the energy from the black wind and cause the ways to grow green again.

 

I don't see it happening that way. male channelers who were tainted by using saidin prior to the cleansing have to be healed. they don't get better on their own. I expect the same to be true of the Ways. They might be cleansed somehow but that would likely require some sort of active action by the channelers. I don't see them healing by themselves just because saidin has been cleansed, not even if the DO is sealed for good or even destroyed.

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I thought they would, at first, but then something occurred to me - have we seen any other case where the taint has affected something done with saidin after the weaving itself has finished? Because as far as I can remember, the weaves themselves are pure, the taint affects only the channeler. I'm wondering how the ways became tainted in the first place...

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I voted "will be destroyed". Recently, it seems that darkfriends and shadowspawn have been the only ones using them and there is evidence (depending on who you talk to) of Demandred moving his armies through them. With that in mind, I have a feeling that they will be destroyed by the forces of light in some sort of trap or otherwise desparate manuver to take as many down as they can in one foul swoop. Loial is gonna be pissed...

The thing that allows the dark side to use the Ways is that the dark leaders are willing to accept some "shipping loss" in the same way that egg producers know that some eggs are lost in transit. The egg producer cares about the resource waste in shipping, but doesn't get emotionally involved in the loss of the individual eggs. The dark side knows that they need to send 2 or 3 fists into the system to get 1 fist out. The Chosen might care about the resources represented by the Trollocs, but they don't have any emotional or moral investment in the Trollocs themselves.

 

I think the Ways would be pretty hard to destroy. Realistically "killed" is probably more accurate than "destroyed." I am not sure if the light would be willing to go to the effort unless there was a huge strategic payoff. A few dozen fists of trollocs popping out here and there probably isn't worth the effort, especially since the dark side seems to have figured out how to use portal stones to move shadowspawn. Portal stones are potentially more useful than the Ways, so shutting down the Ways would have limited payoff.

 

The waygates are supposedly warded. That raises the question in my mind about how the trollocs are getting through the Caemlyn waygate. There are two possibilities. One is that the dark forces have discovered and learned how to defeat the ward Rand had placed on the waygates. In that case I wonder why RJ went to the trouble of having Rand send out the Team Waygate. The other possibility is that the ward is still in place. The ward was supposed to kill shadowspawn that passed through it, but it was a delayed reaction. If the ward is still working, then the fires might have been started before the ward killed the emerging trollocs. In that case the battle in Caemlyn is likely to be mercifully brief as the trollocs die from the effects of the ward. (A third possibility is that Loial missed the waygate in Caemlyn, but that seems highly unlikely.)

 

If the Ogier play an important role in the last battle then I would not be surprised to see light-siders try to clean the Ways as thanks to the Ogier. However, there are so many topics that must be covered in AMOL that I doubt that it will happen there unless it is incidental.

Haha trust me there's no confusion on my part as to why the shadow is willing to use the ways where the light is not, I was merely pointing out that their destruction wouldn't hurt the light's forces much. What I could see happening is the Ways being destroyed while shadow forces are travelin through them, the damage coming from loss of forces not from loss of the ways.

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I thought they would, at first, but then something occurred to me - have we seen any other case where the taint has affected something done with saidin after the weaving itself has finished? Because as far as I can remember, the weaves themselves are pure, the taint affects only the channeler. I'm wondering how the ways became tainted in the first place...

the ways are almost a living thing.

 

they could be clear now though. In order to bring enough trollocs through to effectively attack/destroy Caemlyn they would have to bring a ton of trollocs through, so it may be clear enough that they could bring large amounts of troops with very limited casualties

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I thought they would, at first, but then something occurred to me - have we seen any other case where the taint has affected something done with saidin after the weaving itself has finished? Because as far as I can remember, the weaves themselves are pure, the taint affects only the channeler. I'm wondering how the ways became tainted in the first place...

 

Pretty sure the only long term (3000 yrs) weave of tainted Saidin was the original ward around Callandor that protected it from any hand but that of the Dragon Reborn. And that was interwoven with Saidar, which may or may not have had an ameliorating effect on any potential taint damage to the weave itself. I'd say too little evidence to go on.

 

As far as the corruption of the ways, I don't think it's ever explicitly stated, as no one has been able to make effective study of the ways since they went dark, (the one Ogier that tried had her brain eaten by Machin Shin IIRC), so we're just assuming it's the taint that did it. If it is the taint, then it'll be like madness and must be actively healed.

 

There is the possibility that, like any living thing, the ways got a parasite IE the black wind, and that caused the corruption, growing from some small contaminant and darkening the ways until it became noticeable as the black wind. Thinking about it, in either case, it would likely require a very skilled weaving of some kind (possibly a healing if the ways are alive) to remove the corruption. Probably not a priority. Maybe after Tarmon Gaidon good ol' Damer Flinn will need a new project.

Edited by astarz
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Isn't there an RJ quote to the effect that Machin Shin is something like a fungus that found the corrupted, tainted Ways a conducive environment and hence,just cleaning saidin wouldn't automatically cleanse the Ways of MS?

Nobody from the Light side has been in the Ways since the Cleansing. We don't know whether the Ways fell any cleaner as such, though we do know (KoD) that the Dark has been able to transport huge armies, which was earlier impossible.

Perhaps a cleansing would require something like a reformat/ reboot of the Ways using male channelers and the Talisman of Growing.

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Methinks that machin shin is another facet of evil outside of the dark one which is why Fain (as another facet of all the different types of evil) feels a kinship with it... It therefore wouldn't be destroyed by the cleansing of the taint etc but i think WILL have to be destroyed or resealed with the Dark One...

 

Cos i think that the dark one isn't the only source of evil in Randland, he is only the most overt one and only represents one major facet of the whole. I should really type up a theory about this...

Edited by Justanotherfacet
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DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: About Machin Shin in the Ways: since it seems to absorb the creatures that pass through there, could you regard them as a servant of the Dark One or perhaps almost as a Forsaken?

RJ: It's not a servant of the Dark One. It will kill Trollocs or anything else. You can say it's a parasite that grew in the Ways because of the taint and the One Power that was used to initially create the Ways, and the Talisman of Growing that was used to extend the Ways. So it's not a servant of the Dark One, but its definitely on the evil side.

Q: Would it be cleaned with the cleansing of saidin?

RJ: No. It's like a bacteria breed. Just by cleaning up the chemicals that caused the bacteria to come into existence, unless its feeding on that, those chemicals, you are not going to destroy the bacteria. You simply cut off what helped to create it.

Edited by Terez
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I voted "will be destroyed". Recently, it seems that darkfriends and shadowspawn have been the only ones using them and there is evidence (depending on who you talk to) of Demandred moving his armies through them. With that in mind, I have a feeling that they will be destroyed by the forces of light in some sort of trap or otherwise desparate manuver to take as many down as they can in one foul swoop. Loial is gonna be pissed...

The thing that allows the dark side to use the Ways is that the dark leaders are willing to accept some "shipping loss" in the same way that egg producers know that some eggs are lost in transit. The egg producer cares about the resource waste in shipping, but doesn't get emotionally involved in the loss of the individual eggs. The dark side knows that they need to send 2 or 3 fists into the system to get 1 fist out. The Chosen might care about the resources represented by the Trollocs, but they don't have any emotional or moral investment in the Trollocs themselves.

 

I think the Ways would be pretty hard to destroy. Realistically "killed" is probably more accurate than "destroyed." I am not sure if the light would be willing to go to the effort unless there was a huge strategic payoff. A few dozen fists of trollocs popping out here and there probably isn't worth the effort, especially since the dark side seems to have figured out how to use portal stones to move shadowspawn. Portal stones are potentially more useful than the Ways, so shutting down the Ways would have limited payoff.

 

The waygates are supposedly warded. That raises the question in my mind about how the trollocs are getting through the Caemlyn waygate. There are two possibilities. One is that the dark forces have discovered and learned how to defeat the ward Rand had placed on the waygates. In that case I wonder why RJ went to the trouble of having Rand send out the Team Waygate. The other possibility is that the ward is still in place. The ward was supposed to kill shadowspawn that passed through it, but it was a delayed reaction. If the ward is still working, then the fires might have been started before the ward killed the emerging trollocs. In that case the battle in Caemlyn is likely to be mercifully brief as the trollocs die from the effects of the ward. (A third possibility is that Loial missed the waygate in Caemlyn, but that seems highly unlikely.)

 

If the Ogier play an important role in the last battle then I would not be surprised to see light-siders try to clean the Ways as thanks to the Ogier. However, there are so many topics that must be covered in AMOL that I doubt that it will happen there unless it is incidental.

 

I would say that Rand didnt account for the possibility of such a large force of trollocs in the ways. So it may just be weight of numbers that defeats his wards... its all pure speculation though.

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I just noticed a reference to Rand possibly cleansing the Ways on my reread.

 

“It might have to be used without time for fetching anything,” Rand told him. All the Ways might have to be used, whatever the dangers. If he could cleanse them somehow . . . that was almost as grandiose as his boast to Taim that he would cleanse saidin.

-LoC, Ch 21

This could be a foreshadowing. Rand did manage to cleanse saidin so maybe he can cleanse the Ways too. He is supposed to do nine impossible things after all. This could be one.

 

Also, as the the waygates being warded, as far as we know Rand only warded the waygates in Shienar (the one in which Moiraine cut a hole) and in Shadar Logoth. He didn't ward any others as far as we know. He blocked some (presumably by removing the Avendesora leaves) and put guards on them but that seems to be it.

 

“Shadowspawn are using the Ways,” Rand said before Haman could speak. “I have set guards on the few I can reach.” Including the one outside Stedding Tsofu, plainly after their departure. These three could not have walked all the way from Stedding Tsofu after his last futile visit. “A bare handful. All of them need to be guarded, or else Myrddraal and Trollocs can come boiling out of nowhere, as far as anybody they catch is concerned. But I don’t even know where they all are.”

-LoC, Ch 20

 

"Loial, I've sealed the Waygates I know, in Caemlyn and Cairhien, Illian and Tear, and I put a very nasty trap on the one that was cut open near Fal Dara, but I couldn't find the one near Far Madding. Even when I know there's a Waygate actually in a city, I can't find it by myself, and then there are all those cities that don't exist anymore. I need you to find the rest for me, Loial, or Trollocs will be able to flood into every country at once, and no one will know they're coming until they're in the heart of Andor or Cairhien."

-KoD, Ch 20

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