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100yearoldWhiskey

Your least favorite romantic subplot?

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yeah morgase/tallanvor seems odd to me, maybe out of place.. it seems like he is more of the fanatic.. like, having a band groupie end up with a member of a band.. just weird..

 

i've really been liking the siuan/bryne relationship. wish we got to see more of the transactions between them

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I hate the Mat-Tuon and Rand-Elayne ones the worst. Tuon's a two-dimensional character and those two dimensions are poorly written and terrible and any scene with her drags Mat down terribly. With Rand and Elayne, it looks like RJ decided to start the series by giving the hero the princess and then didn't know what to do with it because there's been no development of the relationship at all and it's just irrelevant that she's one of his three.

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And this is Randland we are talking about, half of these women are really gorgeous.

 

Until they get married and have children. They then become pleasantly plump. There are the exceptions of Aes Sedai and rulers as not all of them are plump. Morgase is still beautiful, a "flower in full bloom," when Alteima goes there after Tear fell.

fixed

 

They become pleasantly plump. That's a crucial difference. :biggrin:

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Worst in terms of believability, Rand-Elayne. The whole Rand and his chicas thing is kinda random, with Avi, she grew up with that sort of thing; but the other two – and especially Elayne. OK ladies how many of you brought up to expect monogamy are going to agree to share a man, and you’re not even spoiled princesses.

 

Worst in terms of tediousness, Perrin-Faille. A lot of people excuse a lot of this because “they’re so young,” sure they’re young, but they’re not 12. Faille’s whole kinda bi-polar thing screams mental illness issues; and frankly any woman who goes to those lengths to make you something you’re not, doesn’t really want you.

 

Moiraine-Thome, Egwene-Gawain, random, no real reason for them to be together.

 

Galad-Berelain, special case. OK I thought Galad was gay (smirk,) he should be gay, because there is no man so virtuous that he’s a virgin at 30 unless there’s a lack of interest, or he’s really, really, unattractive in some way or he’s neurotically shy. Plus it took the most beautiful, seductive woman in the world to get his attention. GAY! Anyway aren’t you ladies always saying the best looking ones are always gay? Even knowing that these two were going to get together it didn’t really make sense. How is Sir-extreme-position going to deal with a woman who’s slightly amoral, and definitely a realistic ruler?

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Worst in terms of believability, Rand-Elayne. The whole Rand and his chicas thing is kinda random, with Avi, she grew up with that sort of thing; but the other two – and especially Elayne. OK ladies how many of you brought up to expect monogamy are going to agree to share a man, and you’re not even spoiled princesses.

 

Worst in terms of tediousness, Perrin-Faille. A lot of people excuse a lot of this because “they’re so young,” sure they’re young, but they’re not 12. Faille’s whole kinda bi-polar thing screams mental illness issues; and frankly any woman who goes to those lengths to make you something you’re not, doesn’t really want you.

 

Moiraine-Thome, Egwene-Gawain, random, no real reason for them to be together.

 

Galad-Berelain, special case. OK I thought Galad was gay (smirk,) he should be gay, because there is no man so virtuous that he’s a virgin at 30 unless there’s a lack of interest, or he’s really, really, unattractive in some way or he’s neurotically shy. Plus it took the most beautiful, seductive woman in the world to get his attention. GAY! Anyway aren’t you ladies always saying the best looking ones are always gay? Even knowing that these two were going to get together it didn’t really make sense. How is Sir-extreme-position going to deal with a woman who’s slightly amoral, and definitely a realistic ruler?

 

Just because you grow up with a sort of thing doesnt mean that your values are going to be the same. For example, if your parents were monogamous doesn´t mean that you don´t tolerate a poly-relationship, or that you wont consider being in one yourself.

 

Faile and Perrin WERE young. She was 16 and he was what... 19? People are different, some mature late lol. And people have different personalites and live in diff cultures. That Faile is Saldaean explains alot, but she is also stubborn. If she would just speak her mind once and for all about what she wants/needs things would be easier for both of them.

 

Galad... he may be bi. Lol..

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I think it's Faile vanity that bothers me since Perrin seems to be so humble. I think it's more of, why would Perrin love HER? More than the relationship itself.

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NOTE: I'm only a few chapters in to ToM, so please keep that in mind when responding to my post, thanks!)

 

The whole gender dynamic in the world of WoT really bothered and sometimes angered me when I first read the series. It seems all male/female interactions center on "Men are buffoons who can't do a thing themselves" vs "women are all overbearing and controlling."

 

But I can tolerate it a bit more after re-reading the series, and approaching it from an understading that, since the Breaking, the mindset of "men who can channel are not to be trusted" evolved over time into "men in general cannot be trusted." And going along with this, that the female Aes Sedai re-establishing order in large part, has evolved to become a world in which, in almost every aspect of society, women are in charge and therefore ARE expected to control men.

 

That being said, my least favorite relationships would also have to be Perrin/Faile and Rand/Elayne.

 

While I get that Faile was raised in a society where women are expected to be argumentative and domineering, she seems to carry it too far. Perhaps she feels this is her "duty" as a wife but, since Perrin isn't Saldean it just comes across as bitchyness. That, and I'm sick of him never standing up to her ridiculous behavior. I also echo the thought that as with many of the relationships in the book, this one seemed to have very little development in progressing from "You're annoying, I hate you!" to "OMG marry me!"

 

Rand/Elayne seems to me to have the LEAST amount of development and makes the least sense. It's just written off as a "Ta'veren thing" pulling her to him but, if Tuon can manage to pull herself together long enough to resist Rand's more menacing effects, then I feel Elayne, being stubborn and independent, should be able to resist as well. Especially as a ruler for the good of herself and her people.

 

And unless you're Aiel and grew up around polygamous marriages, her accpetance of sharing Rand baffles me. There should at least be a bit more resistance to the idea I feel. I also felt that her wanting to sleep with Rand just because the others had cheapened the relationship even more, especailly since they hardly see each other or even communicate before and afterwards. It's a completely superfluous and unnecessary relationship that could be done without if you ask me. At least with Min, Rand liked her from the beginning and spends time with her; and with Aviendha there was a bit more put in to developing a relationship.

Edited by Nightangel486

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Worst in terms of believability, Rand-Elayne. The whole Rand and his chicas thing is kinda random, with Avi, she grew up with that sort of thing; but the other two – and especially Elayne. OK ladies how many of you brought up to expect monogamy are going to agree to share a man, and you’re not even spoiled princesses.

 

Worst in terms of tediousness, Perrin-Faille. A lot of people excuse a lot of this because “they’re so young,” sure they’re young, but they’re not 12. Faille’s whole kinda bi-polar thing screams mental illness issues; and frankly any woman who goes to those lengths to make you something you’re not, doesn’t really want you.

 

Moiraine-Thome, Egwene-Gawain, random, no real reason for them to be together.

 

Galad-Berelain, special case. OK I thought Galad was gay (smirk,) he should be gay, because there is no man so virtuous that he’s a virgin at 30 unless there’s a lack of interest, or he’s really, really, unattractive in some way or he’s neurotically shy. Plus it took the most beautiful, seductive woman in the world to get his attention. GAY! Anyway aren’t you ladies always saying the best looking ones are always gay? Even knowing that these two were going to get together it didn’t really make sense. How is Sir-extreme-position going to deal with a woman who’s slightly amoral, and definitely a realistic ruler?

 

Just because you grow up with a sort of thing doesnt mean that your values are going to be the same. For example, if your parents were monogamous doesn´t mean that you don´t tolerate a poly-relationship, or that you wont consider being in one yourself.

 

No but chances are that you would be heavily prepositioned against it.Now make the odds of one being for it while raised in a monogamous family times two (Avi's situation is not the same) and you'll see why it's kinda far fetched.

Edited by Zentari

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@ Zentari:

True that you could be heavily prepositioned against it, but it also depends on that person´s mindset. My parents values are not my own.

You can draw a parallell to the Aes Sedai, especially the green who have multiple warders, and some of them marry them, althought there is no polyrelationship in Randland so their decision must come from something else other then tradition or culture. But I do understand that Elayne and Rand readily accepting to share themselves not just with Avi but with Min seems odd. They go around saying it´s undecent and then babam!

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Rand/Elayne seems to me to have the LEAST amount of development and makes the least sense. It's just written off as a "Ta'veren thing" pulling her to him but, if Tuon can manage to pull herself together long enough to resist Rand's more menacing effects, then I feel Elayne, being stubborn and independent, should be able to resist as well. Especially as a ruler for the good of herself and her people.

 

And unless you're Aiel and grew up around polygamous marriages, her accpetance of sharing Rand baffles me. There should at least be a bit more resistance to the idea I feel. I also felt that her wanting to sleep with Rand just because the others had cheapened the relationship even more, especailly since they hardly see each other or even communicate before and afterwards. It's a completely superfluous and unnecessary relationship that could be done without if you ask me. At least with Min, Rand liked her from the beginning and spends time with her; and with Aviendha there was a bit more put in to developing a relationship.

I hand-wave it away via three assumptions.

 

Firstly, that Elayne is Ilyena reborn, and there's a certain level of recognition of souls happening.

 

Secondly, that since this happens every seven Ages or so, on some level Elayne is used to it. One theory I have about Min, Elayne and Aviendha is that they'll be combined like Luc/Isam; again, some sort of underlying sense of this was meant to happen might be making it easier to accept.

 

Thirdly the Wheel knows that Rand needs a lot of lovin'. Otherwise, he'll go off and destroy everything. So, Elayne, Min and Aviendha are all shaped all their lives to be able to get along and to be ready to share Rand when push comes to shove.

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@ Zentari:

True that you could be heavily prepositioned against it, but it also depends on that person´s mindset. My parents values are not my own.

You can draw a parallell to the Aes Sedai, especially the green who have multiple warders, and some of them marry them, althought there is no polyrelationship in Randland so their decision must come from something else other then tradition or culture. But I do understand that Elayne and Rand readily accepting to share themselves not just with Avi but with Min seems odd. They go around saying it´s undecent and then babam!

 

this is the hypocrisy of the true nature of human beings!! it's wrong until it benefits them, or they want to do it. Everyone always thinks they are the exception to the rule.

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I hand-wave it away via three assumptions.

 

Firstly, that Elayne is Ilyena reborn, and there's a certain level of recognition of souls happening.

 

I've been wondering about this as a possibility as well, considering Elayne is also described as having sun-colored hair. Still wish that there was something more to it than just the Pattern though *grumble*

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Re Rand's harem: I can't remember who it was that pointed this out - kudos to them - but far from being a randomly selected and pointless trio, Avi, Elayne, and Min are a representation of the Triple Goddess, which comprises Maiden (of the Spear - Avi), Mother (of possibly Calian and Shivan - Elayne), and, er, Crone (Min).

 

It's an interesting point, but I would say Min is the Mother Aspect: she is much more of a caregiver, while Elayne is the Crone Aspect -- not literally, but for her wisdom and leadership. Likewise, Avi is the Maiden Aspect for her passion and vitality.

 

I also think people are a bit too critical of the relationships. Keep in mind that what we see of the relationships is only what the author finds relevant to show. Fights are obviously more interesting than happily going about doing nothing.

 

Please also keep in mind that these people are having relationships during an incredibly stressful time: literally the End of the World! Think back to your own relationships and think about how you fared during your more stressful periods of life. It's not easy being "mature" and "rational" in these kinds of situations.

 

That said, my favorite couples are Rand + Min, and Perrin + Faile. They feel the most genuine and passionate. My least favorite is Mat + Tuon. It just feels so artificial and forced, as if Mat feels he *has* to love Tuon because he's prophecied to do so. It would have worked far better if Mat started developing his feelings *before* he knew who Tuon was. Plus, Tuon just turns me off with the whole slavery thing.

 

I actually also liked the Rand + Egwene relationship in the early books. Even though it was pretty apparent early on that they weren't going to end up together, some of Egwene's thoughts and reactions about Rand was really cute and sweet.

Edited by SolarZ

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@ Zentari:

True that you could be heavily prepositioned against it, but it also depends on that person´s mindset. My parents values are not my own.

You can draw a parallell to the Aes Sedai, especially the green who have multiple warders, and some of them marry them, althought there is no polyrelationship in Randland so their decision must come from something else other then tradition or culture. But I do understand that Elayne and Rand readily accepting to share themselves not just with Avi but with Min seems odd. They go around saying it´s undecent and then babam!

 

this is the hypocrisy of the true nature of human beings!! it's wrong until it benefits them, or they want to do it. Everyone always thinks they are the exception to the rule.

 

I wouldn´t label it hypocrisy, maybe change of hearts. And it´s always the hardest to see and analyze yourself fairly, while it´s easy to do that to others. I just wish Jordan showed more of their change of mind, little hints and pieces. Then the change wouldn´t seem so drastic.

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@ Zentari:

True that you could be heavily prepositioned against it, but it also depends on that person´s mindset. My parents values are not my own.

I'm not saying that.What I am saying is more along the lines of what you did.They seemed to jump on that bandwagon way too fast without actually having prior experience with it

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@ Zentari:

True that you could be heavily prepositioned against it, but it also depends on that person´s mindset. My parents values are not my own.

I'm not saying that.What I am saying is more along the lines of what you did.They seemed to jump on that bandwagon way too fast without actually having prior experience with it

 

Okies, then we basically agree with each other. =) Although that is more a fault with RJ on how he wrote them.

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actually I disagree. The Nyn/Lan thing makes sense. Nynaeve was never going to be swooned by overly dramatic romantic gestures and Lan never had much use for swooning, giggling, ohmygoshyoursostrong lala princesses. Both have duty and responsibility as their primary virtue and principle, both are loyal and dedicated to their people beyond any measure of what could be generally expected and both are willing and capable of commiting immense sacrifices for the greater good. Those are the things they recognised in each other and what drew them together. Nynaeve, being a hell of a lot younger than Lan, however still needed to mature in age and experience in order to match his level of maturity while Lan, being consumed by his duty and single-mindedness to avenge his dead nation needed a reason, a real reason, to live.

 

They were never going to be swooning over each other as two lovesick puppies. That's just not how they tick.

 

 

My choice for worst relationship is Perrin and Faile. I don't care what he became, she ruined him for me. She's STILL out to get her glory (all be it through her husband this time), after everything that happened. She STILL chafes at not being the top cheese in the bucket. Blah.... she's a complete waste of paper and always has been in my book. lol

 

I agree with you 100%!! I love Nyneave and Lan, they make the most sense. They are both strong willed characters with strong senses of honor and duty and need the same in a mate. Someone with Nyneave's famous stubborness was needed to get Lan to see he had a reason so live, that life is not just avenging his homeland.

And I completely despise Faile, she ruined Perrin for me, as well. He used to be my fave character until he got paired up with her. I don't like her at all, she is all about herself and her own glory.

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I may have to read on, but insofar as I've read with the reconciliation of Egwene and Gawyn, Egwene has been incredibly level headed and not stupid about it. She has the emotions and all, but she is very logical about the situation. He is the one that ruins it. His naivety and ignorance is annoying how he is following her around but she's not giving into the whole cheesy relationship thing like other characters have done (rand/elayne). Just thought I would defend that part since I know there was a lot of hate going around about that one. I'm glad to see Egwene not crumbling and staying strong when I thought she would react different to seeing him again. Still don't really like the relationship, but it's not all that bad.

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The first moment the Rand and 3 women thing came in (Great Hunt, I think...well, technically Eye since Min had the viewing between Rand and Egwene), I didn't like it. BUT Rand and Min did end up making a good couple. I thought Min's involvement felt forced at first but it actually didn't. Rand and Aviendha made sense, too, because they were around each other a lot and one could see what was starting to build up in Shadow Rising and especially Fire of Heaven. Rand and Elayne...ehh, there really wasn't much chemistry there. I don't really know why Elayne was fauning over him after he fell into her garden (he did this twice, actually).

 

Nynaeve and Lan isn't bad either, but it felt too expected when Lan jumps in to save Nynaeve in A Crown of Swords when she's drowning from Moghedian's blast. However, in KoD, it's starting to get better.

 

Perrin/Faile...meh. Their storyline is the least interesting of the lot. Faile isn't too bad of a character, but at first she was soooo annoying (in Dragon Reborn) and afterwards she's just sort of been "there."

 

Egwene/Gawyn...hands down, the worst! I haven't gotten to them actually being with each other yet, though, so maybe it gets better, or maybe it gets worse. But here fauning for him is annoying. She's kind of creepy, too, since she keeps spying on his dreams. Pervert.

 

Mat and Tuon are working out pretty well up to where I've reached. Mat and Tylin, though, was kind of strange. It wasn't bad, but Tylin came on a bit too strong, especially for someone of her status.

 

Loial and Erith...I don't know how to compare Ogier relationships to human ones, lol

 

...if Rand had ended up with Lanfear, they would have made a hot couple. They'd be the Brad and Angelina of Randland.

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Mat and Tuon are working out pretty well up to where I've reached. Mat and Tylin, though, was kind of strange. It wasn't bad, but Tylin came on a bit too strong, especially for someone of her status.

 

 

...if Rand had ended up with Lanfear, they would have made a hot couple. They'd be the Brad and Angelina of Randland.

 

I don´t know about Tylin, she was Ebou Dari after all. She is supposed to be the agressor, Ebou Dari culture is like the mirror to Saldaean. Although to be honest, I know there was a discussing if Tylin raped Mat. I´ve just read that part, and... hmm. It seems so. I mean, Mat says he was supposed to be the one that hunted, so that implies that he was just surprised when she was so forward, but she used a knife, and ripped clothes and all that... so I dk really, because Mat was trying to avoid her and hide from her, so maybe he was raped after all... but he didn´t feel bad and that feels odd. Hmm.. I notice I´m rambling. Sorry, this is abit off topic.

 

If there was a movie Angelina could play Lanfear, their personality matches =P

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I cried when tylin died!! I think Mat really did care a lot about her, but didn't like everyone knowing their business. It seems like once he gave in when they were in private, he enjoyed himself. Deep down, I think he REALLY liked it, but didn't want anyone to know :) Like the pink ribbons thing when Tuon brings it up, he doesn't get mad or anything, he thinks Tuon knows about it and is making fun of him for it. "what it means to him" type of thing. So sad that Tylin died :(

 

true source creator- you have the perrin faile thing perfectly! yeah, it was a whole bunch of "ew" and then she was just sort of there. exactly. thank you.

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Gawyn and Egwene was the worst for me. She's first in love with Galad, and then all of a sudden she switches over to Gawyn without even having spent a lot of time with him in between. Elayne/Rand was almost as bad, especially since I really think that Min is the best match for Rand, even if he loves all three.

 

Perrin/Faile is sometimes annoying to me, but I always thought they suited each other well, even if Faile gets a little too jealous.

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Mat and Tuon are working out pretty well up to where I've reached. Mat and Tylin, though, was kind of strange. It wasn't bad, but Tylin came on a bit too strong, especially for someone of her status.

 

 

...if Rand had ended up with Lanfear, they would have made a hot couple. They'd be the Brad and Angelina of Randland.

 

I don´t know about Tylin, she was Ebou Dari after all. She is supposed to be the agressor, Ebou Dari culture is like the mirror to Saldaean. Although to be honest, I know there was a discussing if Tylin raped Mat. I´ve just read that part, and... hmm. It seems so. I mean, Mat says he was supposed to be the one that hunted, so that implies that he was just surprised when she was so forward, but she used a knife, and ripped clothes and all that... so I dk really, because Mat was trying to avoid her and hide from her, so maybe he was raped after all... but he didn´t feel bad and that feels odd. Hmm.. I notice I´m rambling. Sorry, this is abit off topic.

 

If there was a movie Angelina could play Lanfear, their personality matches =P

 

The Tylin/Mat relationship was messed up (but it was supposed to be, in-story, so it's not something to get mad at RJ about). It's pretty clear that she sexually assaulted him, and kept him prisoner. Sure, he came to sort of enjoy it, but that doesn't make it any better. It was sexual assault, where Mat developed a sort-of Stockholm Syndrome like affection for Tylin.

 

Egwene/Gawyn relationship wasn't very good, and the Elayne/Rand relationship is just weak, very, very weak.

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I've had some thoughts on the romance aspect of the series. A large part of the romantic pairing did seem to stem from nowhere - like the oft-mentioned example of Egwene and Gawyn. We've had foreshadowing of pretty much every other relationship except that one, and it seems to the most forced one of the lot.

 

My explanation, though, is a somewhat simple one and it stops me from groaning too much when we hit those awkward moments.

 

If anyone has ever read the Belgariad by David Eddings, they will be familiar with the concept of "predestined love" - people were just 'supposed' to fall in love for the good of the Prophecy (and in this case, Pattern) because their union would eventually result in the Champions of Light for that series.

 

In a similar vein, I think blaming the Wheel itself for these awkward romances is probably the best way to look at them. Our characters HAVE to love certain people because doing so serves the Will of the Pattern as it weaves towards (and hopefully beyond) Tarmon Gai'don. This very handily explains why people can fall in love for absolutely no reason whatsoever, like the horrid way in which Egwene and Gawyn do.

 

Lastly, a lot of people have criticised Rand and his harem... I can't help but feel that he NEEDS to be attached to these three women romantically for a reason. Min's Talent is unique, as far as we know, and maybe this has something to do with it.

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