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Your least favorite romantic subplot?


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RJ does seem mad sexually repressed and as unromantic as they come. The relationships in the book are just laughable in their naivette and old fashioned nature. Tolkien was almost more progressive and human,..which is saying a lot. But then none of us probably read RJ's work for his love relationships in the book, they're just a necessary evil to endure and read through to get to the good stuff which he actually can write well.

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Well, RJ'd rather have those love stories written by his wife, men just can't write credible love stories, but RJ sucked at it (IMHO).

 

Bit of hyperbole there. I've read many, many compelling and realistic love stories/relationships written by men. And plenty of awful love stories written by women.

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But then none of us probably read RJ's work for his love relationships in the book, they're just a necessary evil to endure and read through to get to the good stuff which he actually can write well.

 

Like women´s embroidered dresses and the architectual wonder that is Cairhien and Tar Valon. Lol... jk.

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My least favorite has to be the Thom/Moiraine thing. Thom needed to finally get a woman that doesnt flip out on him (Morgase) or die (Dena). Moiraine also needed something in her life to supplement her causes. That being said, how in Randland do they end up together???? *sigh*

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Always hated the romantic subplot with Bayle Domon and Egeanin Lifeless. The man's property now plus they were way cooler before they hooked up, he was a smuggler and she was badass... Now they're just plain boring.

 

Galad and Berelain, the white knight and the cunning beauty queen from the swamps, their relationship was foretold by Min but when it finally happened I wasn't thrilled. But it could be interesting in the future. I'm sure Galad is a virgin, which Berelain is definitely not. What will happen when the noble leader of the Whitecloaks discovers the pleasures of the flesh?

 

AMOL preview:

 

BORNHALD: "My Lord Captain Commander. Come out and lead the Children in battle! It has begun. There are Trollocs everywhere. Tarmon Gaidon is upon us! The storm has come!"

 

GALAD: "Oh, yeah? Can't you read, Child Bornhald? The sign on my tent? What part of 'Do not disturb!' didn't you understand? I'll be in here with The First of Mayene until we're finished. Important business. Politics, treaties and such. Could you please fetch us another bottle of wine and some fresh towels?"

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But then none of us probably read RJ's work for his love relationships in the book, they're just a necessary evil to endure and read through to get to the good stuff which he actually can write well.

 

Like women´s embroidered dresses and the architectual wonder that is Cairhien and Tar Valon. Lol... jk.

 

And drinking tea. Don't forget about drinking tea!

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If Galad's still a virgin, he's the biggest hero in Randland by far, he's about 30 years old and literally every woman he meets is lusting after him. And this is Randland we are talking about, half of these women are really gorgeous.

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And Berelain told perrin at one point that she had only "bedded" one man or something like that right after faile is taken... she just looks scandalous haha

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My choice for worst relationship is Perrin and Faile. I don't care what he became, she ruined him for me. She's STILL out to get her glory (all be it through her husband this time), after everything that happened. She STILL chafes at not being the top cheese in the bucket. Blah.... she's a complete waste of paper and always has been in my book. lol

I agree with Perrin and Faile, but not for the reasons you stated. I honestly liked Perrin's characterization as a soft, humble character, and Faile is pretty much the opposite for him. I agree with what Min said when she found out they were married. Something along the lines of "She'll ruin him."

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If Galad's still a virgin, he's the biggest hero in Randland by far, he's about 30 years old and literally every woman he meets is lusting after him. And this is Randland we are talking about, half of these women are really gorgeous.

 

Galad is a virgin. Haven't we been told on numerous occasions that Galad "always does the right thing" and that he has been like that since he was a young boy? And having sex before you're married in Randland - and Andor in particular - is something that is frowned upon. Even an act as innocent as kissing can lead to an unpleasant form of shotgun wedding - consider Lini's and Perrin's reactions when they suspect that Tallanvor and Morgase/Maigdhin are romantically involved... And Galad is no ordinary guy either - he joined a society of fighting monks because he liked Lothair Mantelar's beliefs, and that man was a true ascetic in every sense of the word.

 

The rumours of Berelain's erotic activities are false, but she does know more about this than Galad. Consider her behaviour towards Rand in the Stone of Tear, when she tried to seduce him for the good of Mayene. Galad will melt like wax in her hands!

Edited by Hael Me
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Re Rand's harem: I can't remember who it was that pointed this out - kudos to them - but far from being a randomly selected and pointless trio, Avi, Elayne, and Min are a representation of the Triple Goddess, which comprises Maiden (of the Spear - Avi), Mother (of possibly Calian and Shivan - Elayne), and, er, Crone (Min).

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I agree with the general sentiment that RJ, no matter how gifted a storyteller in many other ways, was pretty bad as far as romance is concerned.

 

The worst one for me is Thom/Moiraine. I find it very hard to swallow that such a beautiful, young-looking, powerful and wise Aes Sedai as Moiraine would suddenly want to settle down with an old bugger like Thom. Yes, he is smart and worldly, but he's also a show-off and a bit of a pain, and did I mention old? I don't know. The way it is done is also terrible, with Moiraine turning into a simpering wreck at his feet or just about, not to mention that great idea that hey! Since they're in love, they should marry and be bonded, doesn't matter if Thom is old and limping, he'll be a great warrior for sure. I mean, what the heck? That's not what the Warder bond is supposed to be about.

 

Second worst, Egwene/Gawyn. They've spent very little time together, Egwene seemed a hell of a lot more interested in Galad until she suddenly changed her mind for no apparent reason. Most of the time, Gawyn seems to think of Egwene as some sort of incompetent, fragile and idiotic porcelain doll - why does he love her then, and how can she stand it? It's a mystery to me. As to Egwene, she mostly sees him as a hindrance (which he actually is a lot of the time). They just don't make sense - they neither know nor appreciate each other. And to top it off, here they go with that "I'm in love! We must be bonded!" charade. Is that a End of the Third Age thing?

 

Third worst, Rand/Elayne. It's been said several times already, their relationship is nothing but adolescent lust masquerading as true love. Stop the bullshit already. And guess what? They've bonded too! What a surprise.

 

Other relationships I'm really not keen on:

* Siuan/Gareth, their interaction isn't all that bad but once again we're seeing another spin on the really young/good-looking chick dates grizzled old man, and of course they must bond.

* Morgase/Tallanvor, there's something disturbing about the lovesick puppy dog thing. And when Morgase decides to join in and start simpering herself (let's get married, you're my true love after all puppy darling!), I want to rotate my eyeballs out of my skull. At least she has not used her meager skill in the Power to try to bond him (yet). Then again, I guess Tallanvor doesn't need bonding, it's in-built.

* Juilin/Amathera, Domon/Egeanin, relationships that seem to exist only to satisfy RJ's meticulous obsession in pairing people up.

* Mat/Tuon, kind of funny but hard to believe.

Edited by Toothbrush
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Well, Min is like 25 or something. De wimmins is pretty much all used up by then.

 

:tongue::tongue::tongue::wink:

 

(I was 3 weeks short of my 30th birthday when my eldest decided to put in an appearance..

 

..and the docs described me as an 'elderly primigravida' :ohmy::ohmy: )

 

Actually - and I was surprised myself - 'crone' has a much wider meaning. The link I gave says:

 

In Joseph Campbell's classic work The Hero with a Thousand Faces, the first encounter of the hero on his journey is with a protective figure who provides him with amulets or magic devices against the dangers he will face. The crone is one of the most common of these protective figures.

 

Of course, Min is helping Rand with advice from her research.

Edited by FarShainMael
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Well, Min is like 25 or something. De wimmins is pretty much all used up by then.

 

 

You surely must be feeling old then;) World was quite different just 60 years ago, let alone 300-400 years ago.

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Rand and his three women are by far the worst relationship(s). Rand and Min work, and while they were in the waste Rand and Avi worked really well - even though it was weird and awkward it had a sense of realism to it. Rand and Elayne is completely laughable, and the three women all sharing him is hilarious to me and totally unrealistic with the way they deal with it.

 

The only other relationship that I really dislike is the whole Moiraine/Thom thing. There is one scene in Tear to suggest that they are even remotely attracted to one another, and during that scene they clearly are not familiar with one another hardly at all beyond what they know from their "sources". I can see HOW they would get along and why they would fall in love, but it just flat out didn't happen in the books.

 

I find the Faile/Perrin relationship to be fairly well done. Some people really don't like Faile while others dont mind her...that illustrates the realism of the characters and their relationship IMO.

 

Lan and Nynaeve works IMO, but I just dont really like what happened to Lan since he went to Nynaeve's side. He turned into a whipped little girl.

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Rand and his three women are by far the worst relationship(s). Rand and Min work, and while they were in the waste Rand and Avi worked really well - even though it was weird and awkward it had a sense of realism to it. Rand and Elayne is completely laughable, and the three women all sharing him is hilarious to me and totally unrealistic with the way they deal with it.

 

It's a bit of a stretch, but I can see that sort of sharing going on. Weirder things have been known to happen. Especially around such a ta'veren as Rand. The part of the foursome I have the hardest time believing actually has nothing to do with Rand himself - who in their right mind can possibly think Avi and Elayne work as first sisters? Unbelievable. Sometimes I wish Egwene had been Rand's 3rd woman instead of Elayne, at least their romance came from somewhere and Egwene having spent so much time with the Aiel and with Avi would have been the perfect first sister to her. But no.

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i think faile would have been better with rolan.. perrin with berelain... and i think egwene has lost touch with all her personal relationships in a way which makes me sad...

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i think faile would have been better with rolan.. perrin with berelain... and i think egwene has lost touch with all her personal relationships in a way which makes me sad...

 

I would have HATED to see Perrin with Berelain, lol. Love or hate Faile, she loves Perrin, and he adores her, to the point where he would act with questionable morality, and let the world go to hell, to get her back.

 

Berelain, on the other hand, is fairly honest (in the last book at least), that her chasing of Perrin was mostly for Mayene's political gain, by giving herself a strong tie to the Dragon Reborn. Perrin is annoyed by her advances, and thinks she's attractive, but his heart lies with Faile throughout- and, I've always wondered if this might have something to do with why Berelain chases him so persistantly- because she and Faile have never gotten on since their first encounter, and she is noted as being one of the most beautiful women in the world, as well a clever politician, and here's this man, who began life as a country bumpkin, living his whole life in a tiny town, whom she pretty much offers herself to, and he... turns her down. For this girl Berelain doesn't like, who's not ugly, but not exactly a great beauty, either. I'm not saying that Berelain didn't like Perrin, or that she didn't respect him as an ally, or even consider him a friend at times, but if you compare her calculated behaviour regarding Perrin with her reaction to Galad, its quite obvious, IMO, that she doesn't love Perrin. And I don't believe he comes anywhere near loving her.

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i think faile would have been better with rolan.. perrin with berelain... and i think egwene has lost touch with all her personal relationships in a way which makes me sad...

 

I would have HATED to see Perrin with Berelain, lol. Love or hate Faile, she loves Perrin, and he adores her, to the point where he would act with questionable morality, and let the world go to hell, to get her back.

 

Berelain, on the other hand, is fairly honest (in the last book at least), that her chasing of Perrin was mostly for Mayene's political gain, by giving herself a strong tie to the Dragon Reborn. Perrin is annoyed by her advances, and thinks she's attractive, but his heart lies with Faile throughout- and, I've always wondered if this might have something to do with why Berelain chases him so persistantly- because she and Faile have never gotten on since their first encounter, and she is noted as being one of the most beautiful women in the world, as well a clever politician, and here's this man, who began life as a country bumpkin, living his whole life in a tiny town, whom she pretty much offers herself to, and he... turns her down. For this girl Berelain doesn't like, who's not ugly, but not exactly a great beauty, either. I'm not saying that Berelain didn't like Perrin, or that she didn't respect him as an ally, or even consider him a friend at times, but if you compare her calculated behaviour regarding Perrin with her reaction to Galad, its quite obvious, IMO, that she doesn't love Perrin. And I don't believe he comes anywhere near loving her.

 

You're right, I just love Perrin, hate Faile. Love Berelain, hate Galad.... well I don't HATE him like I do Faile, but yeah... When Berelain punched Galina in CoT (i think) it made me go from kinda liking her to absolutely LOVING her. She's intelligent and aware of her beauty ... But in my head, she's too tall for Perrin too... but if I had my way I would have had Perrin/Berelain happen....

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Ah, fair enough, I'm the other way round, I love Faile and Perrin (most of the time, anyway- I didn't start to like Faile until after tDR), fairly neutral on Galad (though he's climbing in my estimation with each book), and don't really like Berelain. I do appreciate her intelligence and her political abilities, and her devotion to Mayene. Really, I mostly dislike her because she messes with my Faile :P Views are always coloured a little by the characters we like, though, I guess

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One possibly controversial thing I'll chip in with is that I think in the last couple of books, Brandon Sanderson has done a really good job of resuscitating some of the least-convincing relationships and making them actually plausible. Egwene/Gawyn was a relationship that's been around for umpteen books, based on a couple of iffy dreams and one heavy petting session in an inn. Now, finally - love 'em or hate 'em - at least they're spending time together and building a relationship. (Maybe not the healthiest of relationships, depending on your POV, but at least it's evolving.) Morgase/Tallanvor was a relationship that was pretty visible earlier on and then went almost ignored for a few books - I seem to remember Faile thinking that they'd started sleeping together, and being shocked that this happened 'off-screen', although BS seems to have factored that back out again. In ToM, I was pleasantly surprised by how much screentime was given to wrapping up the Morgase/Tallanvor relationship, which was always one of my favourites.

 

Finally, the Gareth-Siuan thing always felt completely unrealistic - for Siuan, especially, it was a classic RJ 'Oops - I seem to have fallen head over heels in love with someone. How did that happen? Oh well.' It really did feel like randomly shoving two characters together. But in tGS, again it was given enough time to actually build at a natural pace and reach a conclusion.

 

Having said all that, while I'm normally against sudden outbreaks of loveness like the above - I still loved Galad and Berelain in ToM. The teacups scene was hilarious!

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I'm going to have to say pretty much all of them are annoying and overly forced, though I'm only half way through Book 7. Aviendha/Min/Rand miht be the least painful for me since there was lead up and situation given to it all... But Elayne/Rand is annoying, "let's neck in Stone of Tear and then I, daughter-heir, shall swoon and think of how great it will be to bond the Dragon Reborn as my warder... sure we can all triple team him, but he's mine first and foremost. We have something real, you know... only spending a few superficial days together and then trying to ensnare him and all"

 

Also, Perrin was my favorite up until Faile starts yelling at him for talking to Berelain. The woman needs to chill. I feel like if I were a friend of Perrin's it'd be one of those awkward situations where I'd be thinking "Man, you're not as fun since you hooked up with that crazy broad of yours."

 

Also, please dear god, do not get me started on the trainwreck of idiocy that is Lan/Nynaeve.

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I really, really like the Mat-Tuon relationship. It works very, very well. Yes, both of them were 'tricked' into it by the pattern (with prophecies/etc), but once they realized that they were destined to marry each other, they decided to actually, you know, get to know the other person! (Shocking, isn't it?)

Perrin/Faile, Siuan/Gareth, Lan/Nynaeve, Rand/Min and Rand/Aviendha all work. Why? Because the characters actually spent time together before professing their undying love.

 

On the other hand, we have those two, lovely lovely relationships - Elayne/Rand, and Egwene/Gawyn.

Elayne and Rand do not love each other. At best, they like each other and lust after each other. Their relationship, however, does not work. Why? Because they hardly spend any time together!

Gawyn I can understand liking Egwene. He spent a lot of time in the tower mooning after her, is strongly attracted to her and has been trained since birth to follow women around and do what they say. Egwene, on the other hand, is not good at those odd, interpersonal relationship thingies. Her love for Gawyn doesn't really make since, either.

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A lot of them really do feel very superficial and forced. Someone commented above that Egwene and Gawyn deserved each other and I totally agree - they are two of my least favourite characters due to being so horrendously arrogant and refusing to acknowledge their own mistakes.

 

Faile's immature BS really annoyed me to no end - although that's in no small part due to the fact my wife is much the same...must be a women-in-general thing ;)

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