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Why did RJ turn the channeling system on its head?


alykyn
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RE stopping hearts: He was making a point that the pattern would obey him if he asked it something, it had NOTHING to do with Channeling. And it was just a bluff (unless he really is that strongly ta'veren, which clearly people IN THE BOOK believe he might be).

 

RE Egwene's 13x2 shield: He doesn't break it, he doesn't even TRY to break it, so how on earth would she know? She's just guessing by his complete lack of concern for his situation. If he was shielded by 6 circles and had the same attitude she would probably think he could break a shield of 78 Aes Sedai... doesn't make it true.

 

BTW this is odd for Egwene who just spent so much time putting up with beatings and humiliation while maintaining a similar air of 'in-control-ness' to prove "what must be endured, can be endured" (to quote Cadsuane). I blame the fact she's truly Aes Sedai and presumes weakness from everyone else.

 

Re Maradon: I posted the following quote in another thread: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/59424-how-was-it-that-rand-had-so-much-power-in-vog/page__st__20

 

I think you all overestimate the difficulty of destroying an army of non-channlers who are rushing from almost a fixed point. It's flashy, and makes for an epic looking scene to the non-channelers we get the PoV from, but I doubt Moridin would be as impressed.

 

I would bet Moridin could do it just as well, if not better, than Rand. The reason he doesn't is because there's no point. They are just ants to him. He can wipe them out whenever he wants, after Rand and the Tower(s) is/are dealt with. Non-channelers, even weaker ones, are a totally different story.

 

Remember WAY back in the series when Nynaeve fought one of the forsaken... I think it was Moghedien. It was all about trying to shield or even insta-still each other and slicing incoming weaves. At that point, as long as your spirit was strong enough to slice the incoming shields, it was more about channeling "agility" the more shields you could make, and the more slicing weaves you could make, the better your chances. There were no fireballs or balefire beams. From a non-channeler observer, they would just be staring at each other (love to see that done in a movie). It would, however, be QUICKLY exhausting.

 

[...]

 

As for comparing to LTT, LTT was fighting battles that were filled with, if not exclusively, channelers. I would assume A LOT of his agility was consumed with protective weaves: Shields, slicing incoming attacks, saving not only himself but his troops. He would either be holding them ready or actively using them constantly, invisibly, like the Nynaeve fight. Therefore the Capacity LTT would have for offensive measures would be much diminished. Rand had to do none of this at Maradon -- pure ownage.

 

I love the way Rand walks around like he's a god. And the deference people show him is quite awesome. But legends rarely live up to their reputations, even living legends. Also, it's just lame to have him destroy the Choden Kal and then say, "but don't worry he's still just as powerful because he's enlightened." Rand is the exact same channeler he was before enlightenment (minus sickness and LTT take-overs), he just has a different attitude. That attitude convinced other characters he's now unstoppable, and it convinced some of you too.

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Does no one wonder how LTT was able to seal the bore since male channelers cannot link and DO has unbelievably strong presence around Pit of Doom. I am using the premise that LTT is weaker than Rand (Ishmael strength, a notch above Demandred). Anyone? The "experts"?

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My speculations are that either

 

(1) The Creator is in-fact intervening

(2) Lews Therin was actually that powerful, and we are finally witnessing what a real AOL channeler can do in mass amounts (though this is hard to believe because the Forsaken should have the same abilities, and we haven't seen anything this crazy before without sa'angreal)

(3) Rand had a sa'angreal at Maradon

(4) Somehow, when Rand destroyed the CK, he BECAME the CK (this is a loose speculation that I just like)

(5) Maybe Rand now knows (because of his Lews Therin integration) just what his power limits are. Remember, Lews Therin channeled a TON of OP right before dying and creating Dragonmount. Maybe that somehow opened him up to be able to handle much more power than anybody else, and by extension, allows Rand to now do the same, or maybe Rand now knows through his experience as Lews Therin what his TRUE limits are without risking being burned out. Remember, a channeler can actually handle a crap-ton more power if they are willing to go the "burned out" route. Maybe Rand somehow has control over it. Maradon did leave him exhausted.

 

My bets are on 1, 4 or 5.

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(4) Somehow, when Rand destroyed the CK, he BECAME the CK (this is a loose speculation that I just like)

I don't know what he became exactly but he has definitely undergone some sort of change. We have his future kids strange ties to saidin, the apparent absence of channeling sickness in ToM, his super power at Maradon, his perceived ability to break through the shields in the Tower (he didn't do it but he seemed sure that he could), the whiteness in his brain that Nyn saw and also the light emanating from him at Maradon.

Light and Power exploded from the Dragon Reborn.

 

BS made a comment on twitter that this is important

 

Interesting. In EotW, Rand uses Light & Power. Is it significant that he uses Light & Power again in ToM?

 

Brandon

 

Yes.

This does suggest that he is either using a sa'angreal at Maradon or it's a result of his change in VoG. The former is quite unlikely IMO as discussed earlier in the thread. Callandor is too big and would have been seen and we don't know of Rand having any other sa'angreal.

Edited by herid
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I don't think Rand is a normal channeler anymore. When Nynaeve delved his mind to try and "heal" his madness, she noticed that an aura of light has enveloped all the tendrils from the madness..those lights were not present when she "healed" the first Ashaman ( forgot his name )so I am assuming this is unique to ZEN Rand.

 

Notice also that Darkfriends can no longer look at Rand directly, they are blinded by an inner light emanating from him somehow, also when Rand was killing all those shadowspawns in Maradon the Darkfriend lord and lady locked up on the other side of the building was driven mad by the light coming from his channeling.

 

All these things seem to be indicating that the Creator has made Rand his champion now and Rand is either using something more than the One power or if it is still the One Power it has been ramped up to more than what he can hold and use before VOG.

 

Also, the forsaken was credited with using balefire to destroy entire cities before they discovered that it was dangerous. How many people were they able to kill when using balefire that way? surely more than Rand did in Maradon. The impressive thing about maradon is not the number of trollocs killed but the number of weaves he can create at once.

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I don't think Rand is a normal channeler anymore. When Nynaeve delved his mind to try and "heal" his madness, she noticed that an aura of light has enveloped all the tendrils from the madness..those lights were not present when she "healed" the first Ashaman ( forgot his name )so I am assuming this is unique to ZEN Rand.

 

Notice also that Darkfriends can no longer look at Rand directly, they are blinded by an inner light emanating from him somehow, also when Rand was killing all those shadowspawns in Maradon the Darkfriend lord and lady locked up on the other side of the building was driven mad by the light coming from his channeling.

 

All these things seem to be indicating that the Creator has made Rand his champion now and Rand is either using something more than the One power or if it is still the One Power it has been ramped up to more than what he can hold and use before VOG.

 

Also, the forsaken was credited with using balefire to destroy entire cities before they discovered that it was dangerous. How many people were they able to kill when using balefire that way? surely more than Rand did in Maradon. The impressive thing about maradon is not the number of trollocs killed but the number of weaves he can create at once.

 

I agree with all this, but that can be (and I'm taking the position that it is) irrelevant to his channeling strength. I'm not saying he doesn't gain other "gifts" or talents. There are LOTS of talents irrelevant to Channeling.

 

And yes, he's exceptionally agile in his channeling. But he had that before as well. It was pointed out by Egwene back when he was a novice. And if you're really good at multi-tasking, then when you're only doing ONE thing, like cleansing saidin... that agility is wasted.

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What's light and how do you channel it? Is it essence of creator? How can Ituralde see it? From his perspective, wouldn't light simply be Rand glowing or something like that?

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I don't think Rand is a normal channeler anymore. When Nynaeve delved his mind to try and "heal" his madness, she noticed that an aura of light has enveloped all the tendrils from the madness..those lights were not present when she "healed" the first Ashaman ( forgot his name )so I am assuming this is unique to ZEN Rand.

 

Notice also that Darkfriends can no longer look at Rand directly, they are blinded by an inner light emanating from him somehow, also when Rand was killing all those shadowspawns in Maradon the Darkfriend lord and lady locked up on the other side of the building was driven mad by the light coming from his channeling.

 

All these things seem to be indicating that the Creator has made Rand his champion now and Rand is either using something more than the One power or if it is still the One Power it has been ramped up to more than what he can hold and use before VOG.

 

Also, the forsaken was credited with using balefire to destroy entire cities before they discovered that it was dangerous. How many people were they able to kill when using balefire that way? surely more than Rand did in Maradon. The impressive thing about maradon is not the number of trollocs killed but the number of weaves he can create at once.

 

I never truly understood that light part inside his head when I read the book but now that I think about, it might be something similar to Rand "healing" the land around him. Just like he protects the land from DO's influence, he is able to protect his own head from DO's compulsion. Does that mean he should be heal his wound too, the one given by Ishmael? I don't know.

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Maybe the light Nyn sees inside his head indicates that he is continuously connected now to OP in some weird way (like his kids by Avi)? Therefore, he cannot be shielded, since his access cannot be cut off - it's always there inside him.

 

Above is just a theory- we don't actually have any proof that he could actually have broken the shield in TV in a normal way (through ta'vere-ness is different - that could break the shield in many random ways).

We also have an apparent indication that he can be OP-shielded by the FM Guardian - he tells Cadsuane to be ready to pull an evac., So there is some way of shielding him from OP.

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as mentioned before, it was most likely an updated version of the crazy shadowspawn killing Rand did in tSR in the Stone. With that, Shadowspawn are easy to kill. Nothing really "new" about it.

 

Remember Bashere or Ituralde commenting on how nobody could be that accurate striking the shadowspawn.

 

Exactly the same as in the Stone.

 

Rand didn't use that tornado of lightning this time. He used waves of fire, which followed the course of the land, ice, and firespouts and all without destroying the fortifications Ituralde had held before he retreated inside Maradon.

 

Half of things you are claiming are either not in the book or you just read the book the way you want to and not whats written. The story is not about how you "feel" like it. I hope you are not the voice of majority because this is downright silly.

 

Of course I'm reading between the lines sometimes, but I feel I've explained why I do so when I did. If you disagree with my reasoning make your own arguments, but if all you are going to do is reject it without arguments you can just shut up. Please.

 

RE Egwene's 13x2 shield: He doesn't break it, he doesn't even TRY to break it, so how on earth would she know? She's just guessing by his complete lack of concern for his situation. If he was shielded by 6 circles and had the same attitude she would probably think he could break a shield of 78 Aes Sedai... doesn't make it true.

 

Of course not, but Egwene may be speaking with the voice of the author in this case telling us that Rand could actually break those shields. Now if we hadn't seen that kid of his no one would make the claim that he might be able to break the shield, but we did.

 

 

I think you all overestimate the difficulty of destroying an army of non-channlers who are rushing from almost a fixed point. It's flashy, and makes for an epic looking scene to the non-channelers we get the PoV from, but I doubt Moridin would be as impressed.

 

I would bet Moridin could do it just as well, if not better, than Rand. The reason he doesn't is because there's no point. They are just ants to him. He can wipe them out whenever he wants, after Rand and the Tower(s) is/are dealt with. Non-channelers, even weaker ones, are a totally different story.

 

Remember WAY back in the series when Nynaeve fought one of the forsaken... I think it was Moghedien. It was all about trying to shield or even insta-still each other and slicing incoming weaves. At that point, as long as your spirit was strong enough to slice the incoming shields, it was more about channeling "agility" the more shields you could make, and the more slicing weaves you could make, the better your chances. There were no fireballs or balefire beams. From a non-channeler observer, they would just be staring at each other (love to see that done in a movie). It would, however, be QUICKLY exhausting.

 

[...]

 

As for comparing to LTT, LTT was fighting battles that were filled with, if not exclusively, channelers. I would assume A LOT of his agility was consumed with protective weaves: Shields, slicing incoming attacks, saving not only himself but his troops. He would either be holding them ready or actively using them constantly, invisibly, like the Nynaeve fight. Therefore the Capacity LTT would have for offensive measures would be much diminished. Rand had to do none of this at Maradon -- pure ownage.

 

True it's different from a fight between channellers.

Which is why you have to look at the scope of his fight. How many weaves he used at the same time how large those weaves were and for how long he used them.

 

By the way what you describe seems to be how women of nearly equal power fight, the men, if Rand's fight is any measure, take a more direct approach of who can smash the other with more powerful weaves until one side is out of power to defend himself. XD well unless one side knows balefire that is.

 

I love the way Rand walks around like he's a god. And the deference people show him is quite awesome. But legends rarely live up to their reputations, even living legends. Also, it's just lame to have him destroy the Choden Kal and then say, "but don't worry he's still just as powerful because he's enlightened." Rand is the exact same channeler he was before enlightenment (minus sickness and LTT take-overs), he just has a different attitude. That attitude convinced other characters he's now unstoppable, and it convinced some of you too.

 

He isn't the same. Obviously he isn't nearly as strong unaided even enlightened than he was with the Choden Kal. But that's quite different from saying he hasn't gotten a significant boost in strength and ability since VoG. He isn't invincible by a long shot, he admits that himself after he finishes in Maradon.

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I always interpreted it as his understanding of the Wheel.

He's not threatened by a circle anymore because he knows the Wheel will watch out for him, and let him do what needs to be done.

It's like he is so connected he can almost predict the future.

 

It seemed clear to me when he was willing to travel to meet with the Borderlanders that he doesn't feel threatened by mortals anymore.

 

Then again, maybe it's because he knows he can grasp the True Source, in each of those situations we don't know that a shield would stop him from doing that.

Edited by DocBean
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Maybe the light Nyn sees inside his head indicates that he is continuously connected now to OP in some weird way (like his kids by Avi)? Therefore, he cannot be shielded, since his access cannot be cut off - it's always there inside him.

that's a reasonable theory and it has been discussed before but it doesn't explain his behavior in Far Madding. He was pretty clearly shielded from the OP there, yet he gave no sign of getting channeling sickness when entering the area covered by the Far Madding Guardian. He should have if he was permanently connected to saidin. He was getting extremely sick when either seizing or releasing saidin by the end of tGS and it's unlikely he could hide it.

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He isn't the same. Obviously he isn't nearly as strong unaided even enlightened than he was with the Choden Kal. But that's quite different from saying he hasn't gotten a significant boost in strength and ability since VoG. He isn't invincible by a long shot, he admits that himself after he finishes in Maradon.

 

If he's gotten a overall "Channeling Prowess" boost. I would suggest it's due to his lack of apprehension about channeling. Since he no longer has the sickness or the worries about LTT taking control. He can channel freely and most effectively now. I think all the theories about tapping directly into the creator or being one with the source are just silly.

 

Of course not, but Egwene may be speaking with the voice of the author in this case telling us that Rand could actually break those shields. Now if we hadn't seen that kid of his no one would make the claim that he might be able to break the shield, but we did.

 

Writing something as a fact that your character has no way to know is not how this PoV style of writing works. Even if it is true, which I admit it could very well be, Egwene is not an authority on the topic. Unless he tested the shield AND Egwene was one of the ones holding it, she would have zero idea of his power level. The opinion was formed based on his casualness of his attitude given his situation, possibly some Ta'veren-ness thrown in.

 

By the way what you describe seems to be how women of nearly equal power fight, the men, if Rand's fight is any measure, take a more direct approach of who can smash the other with more powerful weaves until one side is out of power to defend himself. XD well unless one side knows balefire that is.

 

While it may be skewed by gender (similar to how women are more likely to use poison to murder), I assume tactics in a 1v1 channeler fight are based on the style(specialties) of the channelers. And of course your defenses will change based on what they throw at you. I was just giving an example of the exact opposite of a fire-and-lightning-based battle like at Maradon where mass killing of non channelers may be less tiring than trying to kill even 1 channeler.

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I agree with the OP. Rand's entire transformation into super Rand needs to be explained pretty well in the final book or else it may ruin the entire series completely.

 

Also - that line about Egwene saying she thought he was strong enough to break a shield was put there intentionally to assure us of his newfound strength. Throw in what he did at Maradon and his "light coated taint barbs" on his mind and we have a legit Super Rand that appears to have lost the battle for the light, but was saved by some miracle on the mountain that also transformed him into a minor deity of some kind.

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Not sure why everyone balks at the Maradon scene.

 

 

Rand and about 30 channelers take out 100k darkspawn quite easily in KoD. With Rand's new found knowledge from LTT, he should be able to do that himself.

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I just don't see why people find Maradon so confusing. It's simply a demonstration of what Lews Therin/Rand Sedai can really do. I didn't get a hint that Rand had somehow increased in the Power, but rather what he could do with it. The sheer finesse of his weavings. The Dragon is the perfect channeller with the raw strength of men and the dexterity of women (and I hold that Lanfear is his nearest equal, not Moridin, her having the dexterity of women and strength of men).

 

The reason that the other Forsaken haven't done the same is simple. They were not, up until this point, fighting their war in that manner. It was all cloak and daggers and doing things like Rand Sedai did at Maradon is rather counter-point to that. This will all change in AMOL however.

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Rand said that the Guardians at Far Madding only blocked the OP. The clear implication is that he could have channeled the TP. I think the reason he could have defeated the double circle at TV was by using the TP.

 

I would love to discuss the nature of the TP, but I don't want to hijack this thread. However, I will say that I don't think the rules of channeling have changed. We are seeing Rand's changed understanding of the TP.

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Rand said that the Guardians at Far Madding only blocked the OP. The clear implication is that he could have channeled the TP. I think the reason he could have defeated the double circle at TV was by using the TP.

 

I would love to discuss the nature of the TP, but I don't want to hijack this thread. However, I will say that I don't think the rules of channeling have changed. We are seeing Rand's changed understanding of the TP.

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Rand said that the Guardians at Far Madding only blocked the OP. The clear implication is that he could have channeled the TP. I think the reason he could have defeated the double circle at TV was by using the TP.

 

I would love to discuss the nature of the TP, but I don't want to hijack this thread. However, I will say that I don't think the rules of channeling have changed. We are seeing Rand's changed understanding of the TP.

 

 

Only thing clear is that if Rand had accepted the offer of Borderlanders first time around, he would have used TP. Also shield for one power also seems to work on TP (I think I read it somewhere)..

Edited by WhiskyJack
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Rand said that the Guardians at Far Madding only blocked the OP. The clear implication is that he could have channeled the TP. I think the reason he could have defeated the double circle at TV was by using the TP.

 

I would love to discuss the nature of the TP, but I don't want to hijack this thread. However, I will say that I don't think the rules of channeling have changed. We are seeing Rand's changed understanding of the TP.

 

 

Only thing clear is that if Rand had accepted the offer of Borderlanders first time around, he would have used TP. Also shield for one power also seems to work on TP (I think I read it somewhere)..

 

I don't believe that is "clear", it's just possible.

 

When he showed up the first time he was standing outside the guardian's influence and IIRC he raised the Chodan Kal as if to use it. So he was more than likely going to throw something INTO the area: lighting, giant rocks, some sort of fire and brimstone storm. All of that would work just fine to destroy the borderlander's army as long as you're channeling from outside the Guardian's influence.

 

Plus, I think he made the statement as part of the power-play posturing he's done a lot of since enlightenment. He goes out of his way to make sure people see him as unstoppable and invincible (I don't believe that he is, but he sure wants people to think it). If that's the case then the details of what he meant is irrelevant. If he just wanted to create awe and mystique, that's what he did.

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I just don't see why people find Maradon so confusing.

people don't find it confusing at all. most just have firm opinions which differ.

It's simply a demonstration of what Lews Therin/Rand Sedai can really do. I didn't get a hint that Rand had somehow increased in the Power, but rather what he could do with it. The sheer finesse of his weavings. The Dragon is the perfect channeller with the raw strength of men and the dexterity of women (and I hold that Lanfear is his nearest equal, not Moridin, her having the dexterity of women and strength of men).

 

The reason that the other Forsaken haven't done the same is simple. They were not, up until this point, fighting their war in that manner. It was all cloak and daggers and doing things like Rand Sedai did at Maradon is rather counter-point to that. This will all change in AMOL however.

it was not all cloak and dagger. They had plenty of opportunities to show their prowess on a large scale. Sammael fought Rand and his armies in Cairhien in FoH, and then later he fought Rand's armies in Illian in CoS. Rahvin fought Rand and his attack force in FoH. Most of the Forsaken fought at the cleansing. None of them showed anything even remotely close to Rand's abilities in Maradon. If they could they would have. IMO Rand is obviously hugely increased in his power post VoG and no amount of "finesse in the weaving" could explain that.

 

Rand said that the Guardians at Far Madding only blocked the OP. The clear implication is that he could have channeled the TP. I think the reason he could have defeated the double circle at TV was by using the TP.

 

I would love to discuss the nature of the TP, but I don't want to hijack this thread. However, I will say that I don't think the rules of channeling have changed. We are seeing Rand's changed understanding of the TP.

The new Rand would never use TP. TP is the essence of the DO as is pure evil. That's made very clear in the book. Rand used it once for a short time and we saw what happened to him after that. The new Rand is well aware of this and would never ever use it by choice. This is also made clear by his behavior in Far Madding. He asked Cadsuane to be ready with a gateway from her puny well. There would be no need if he was going to use TP. The old Rand would use it if attacked in Far madding as his remark about the guardian not blocking TP indicates. the new Rand would never do it. If he thought he could break the shield in the White Tower it wasn't TP he was going to use.

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it was not all cloak and dagger. They had plenty of opportunities to show their prowess on a large scale. Sammael fought Rand and his armies in Cairhien in FoH, and then later he fought Rand's armies in Illian in CoS. Rahvin fought Rand and his attack force in FoH. Most of the Forsaken fought at the cleansing. None of them showed anything even remotely close to Rand's abilities in Maradon. If they could they would have. IMO Rand is obviously hugely increased in his power post VoG and no amount of "finesse in the weaving" could explain that.

 

Different situations, different tactics. Rand was facing an great force of shock troops and applied the necessary tactics. At the Battle of Cairhien they were not out to mass-destroy his forces but to tempt Rand into a fight between himself and Sammael in which Rhavin and the others would ambush him.

 

And really.. so what if the other Forsaken haven't done anything like him? They only three who really could are Moridin, Sammael and Demandred. The others had different personalities and abilities. Aginor was immensely strong but was a pure soldier for example. Moridin's personality doesn't suit such tactics, Demandred hasn't came out of the closet yet and the tactics simply weren't useful to Sammael at the time.

 

And even then we're dealing with Lews Therin. This is the guy who led the Strike at Shayol Ghul. This is the man who owned the Betrayer of Hope in the Hall or the Servants and at the Gates of Heaven. He is just that damn good.

 

But his Power means nothing. As in the end the fight with the Dark One will not be about strength in the One Power. Rand has said it himself.. he will not fight the war, that will be up to others. He'll fight the final battle.

 

Funny that.. he's never been more strong.. and it's never been more useless :biggrin:!

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it was not all cloak and dagger. They had plenty of opportunities to show their prowess on a large scale. Sammael fought Rand and his armies in Cairhien in FoH, and then later he fought Rand's armies in Illian in CoS. Rahvin fought Rand and his attack force in FoH. Most of the Forsaken fought at the cleansing. None of them showed anything even remotely close to Rand's abilities in Maradon. If they could they would have. IMO Rand is obviously hugely increased in his power post VoG and no amount of "finesse in the weaving" could explain that.

 

 

 

I have heard this being repeated so many times that one might actually believe all this to be true. Unfortunately it' not. Sammael didn't "fight" an army. I am pretty sure the way it went down, Sammael killed anyone and everyone who came close enough. Rand's army was smart enough to not go suicidal and most just stayed away. Worse, this army had Asha'man (weak ones but still) and yet they couldn't move. In case of Rahvin, Rand actually brought very few soldiers but he came personally and Rahvin only tried to kill Rand (he didn't attack his soldiers). In Maradon, dumb trollocs just went wild and kept attacking a guy who was not even chasing them. And more Rand killed, harder it became for future shadowspawn to attack him since he killed nearest ones first. Rand and about 20 more Asha'man/Aes Sedai offed 100k shadowspawn just like that. Not only most were weak, they didn't even know how to kill such a large host. The scene never gave the idea they could have lost the battle albeit getting almost no warning and fighting such a close battle. Death gates and Fire lotus, albeit not being very complicated or power draining (good number of asha'man could do it) proved way more effective than simple shooting the fire at trollocs. On the other hand Asha'man at Maradon, lacking such knowledge proved less effective. Most Asha'man are just poorly trained.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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Let me add this also, in VoG, Rand finally figured out that he and LTT were one and the same and what truly was the purpose of his existence. At no point he discovered that he was "stronger" than before. All he got from VoG was an understanding. Now his tav'eren power surely has gone wild and he saw that first hand(he actually knew this would happen I think). But what about One Power? When he marched on to that massive host of shadowspawn with just two maidens, what made him think he will not lose? Perhaps an old memory? He had never wielded this much power before, unaided so it be sheer suicide for him to just attack 100s of thousands of trollocs and what not. Thoughts?

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I would like to point out that Rand considered what he did at Maradon to actually be pretty stupid, because any of the forsaken could have showed up afterwards and killed him. Given the paranoid and survival-oriented mindset of the forsaken, I can't imagine any of them would take that chance.

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