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Well, I guess that I finally FOUND IT!!! ... (The MOMENT that...)


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I began to HATE Egwenw. ... You know, the mayor's kid?

 

Well, maybe not the moment...but definitely and certainly The BOOK.

 

FOH.

 

The way she treated Elayne (who is FAR from Miss Perfect herself, but still) and my girl Nynaeve - ESPECIALLY in the Dreamworld.

 

Where did she Get OFF arrogantly lording over the other two Super Chicks in that book???

 

You know...after LOVING her in TGS and being DISGUSTED by the mayor's kid in TOM, I realized that, really, the ONLY book in the entire series where I really liked her was TGS!!! ... Why is that, LOL??? ... Your answers as good as mine, lol! ;)

 

 

- Fish

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Yeah - you start to hate her in tDR, but with an "annoying kid" attitude cause she's just stubbornly disagreeing with Nynaeve; then she starts to really grow an ego due to TAR.

 

I think the consistent with Egwene (and indeed a vast majority of the main characters, but MOSTLY Egwene) is that when she's the downtrodden one, you like her; but when she's in a position of power she's a complete biz-natch who feels the need to shove it down everyone's throat.

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It makes me worry about my own character that, from memory, I tend to agree with Egwene and most of the methods she is forced to use. I'm a long way away from hating her, that's for sure.

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Yeah - you start to hate her in tDR, but with an "annoying kid" attitude cause she's just stubbornly disagreeing with Nynaeve; then she starts to really grow an ego due to TAR.

 

I think the consistent with Egwene (and indeed a vast majority of the main characters, but MOSTLY Egwene) is that when she's the downtrodden one, you like her; but when she's in a position of power she's a complete biz-natch who feels the need to shove it down everyone's throat.

 

 

I agree with alot of what you say: Mat and Perrin are really the only two characters in the entire series that get elevated to positions of high authority and don't become A$$es.

 

 

 

- Fish

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It makes me worry about my own character that, from memory, I tend to agree with Egwene and most of the methods she is forced to use. I'm a long way away from hating her, that's for sure.

 

 

Don't feel worried about yourself: I agree with alot of Egwene's choices and beliefs early in the series too - EXCEPT about the 3 Oaths; on THAT one I was with Siuan all the way - but her ATTITIUDE was beyond repugnant. MASSIVE redemption in TGS...Then epic relapse in TOM :(

 

 

- Fish

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I don't get the hate.

 

Here's a little story....

 

I used to play softball with a guy who used to play professional baseball for the Pirates. He was just about the cockiest guy I ever played on a team with. Trouble is, he was also every bit as good as he talked himself up to be. He claimed he could make me a better hitter if I just listened to what he said I needed to change. Now, I was a better-than-average player myself at the time, and I had the requisite ego that goes along with being successful at sports. It was very difficult to get past his bombast and accept that he really DID have the ability and knowledge he claimed to have--especially since he was about 7-8 years younger than me at the time. Once I let myself accept his superiority in hitting, he helped me tremendously. Pride pricked. Ego flattened. Swing vastly improved.

 

It ain't braggin' if it's the truth.

 

Egwene is much the same. She has achieved a high standing in the world BECAUSE she has acted bravely and well. Based on that, why wouldn't she expect others to comply with her way of thinking? Yes, she thinks too highly of her own personal view of things, and yes, she has a tendency to infantilize others around her. But those others are going to have to concede that Egwene's way of doing things HAS unified the Tower, HAS brought huge numbers of women who can channel into the Aes Sedai fold, HAS resulted in the deaths of dozens of Black Ajah members, HAS effectively blunted the effect of a Seanchan raid, HAS ferreted out and mentally destroyed a Forsaken in the midst of Tar Valon, and HAS at least normalized relations with the Dragon Reborn.

 

Sorry if you find her condescending and demeaning to her former equals. They are no longer her equals. She is the Amyrlin Seat, and she is responsible for the Aes Sedai--making her responsible for the vast majority of the channeling forces in the world--the rapid growth of the Black Tower notwithstanding.

 

Her obvious competence and the equally obvious necessity for a hierarchy of authority have both conspired to put her in a place where her word must be unquestioned. Is she going to make mistakes? Yes. She's still human, and she's still young. But jumping on her case for getting a little hoighty-toighty???

 

Like I said, I don't get the hate.

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On my first read through of the series I kind of liked Egwene. However, on each re-read I have dis-liked her more and more. Or specifically her behaviour in the middle books of the series in particular her treatment of friends and getting AS to swear fealty to her. When I get to KOD I start liking her again and really find her character enjoyable in TGS in fact I really enjoyed her arc in this book and kept looking forward to her povs.

 

In TOM I found her character took a significant turn for the worse and so I went from liking her at the end of TGS to dis-liking her by the end of TOM. What I find incomprehensible is that while she informed the sisters outside the black tower about the black ajah in their midst she never bothered to tell Rand (at least we don't see it on screen - and surely in the scene where she thinks about how she notified her fellow sisters, she would have added and Rand) about the one whom as far know is still in his camp (Nalaene).

 

It also seems inconceivable that Aran'gar didn't use her time with Egwene to lay some subtle compulsion that will become evident in AMoL. I certainly think that would add something to the last book to find Egwene unknowingly working for the shadow.

Edited by sandoz12
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Egwene is much the same. She has achieved a high standing in the world BECAUSE she has acted bravely and well.

Actually she has achieved a high standing mostly thanks to luck (being born a powerful channeller in the same village as the Dragon Reborn, which are the reasons she was chosen for Amyrlin) and because her opponents (mostly Elaida, but also Romanda, Lelaine, etc) were dumbed down to a ridiculous degree to make her rise to power somewhat plausible.

 

But that's not really my problem with her. Lucky or not, she still reached such a high position at an unprecedented age and has all kinds of skills so it's normal to be arrogant. What I dislike about her is her blatant hypocrisy and the horrible way she treats her friends (especially Nynaeve). She summoned two brutes in TAR to scare Nynaeve out of her mind just to keep her lie to the WO hidden. Not only that, but she never even considered the possibility of apologising to Nynaeve for that. This is inexcusable in my book.

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So, when Egwene tricks Nynaeve into giving advice based on being a young Wisdom in Emond's Field, the substance of Nynaeve's "Advice" is wrong somehow? I think if you read that passage with an unbiased eye, you'll see that what Nynaeve inadvertently advises Egwene to do is precisely what she has done--and in my opinion, precisely what she must do.

 

If you want a justification for Egwene's acts since becoming Amyrlin to the rebels, you can't get much clearer than that. If you want a justification for her actions prior to that, I'd ask you to find a second plausible path that was as likely to lead to her current status. I don't think you'll find one.

 

The world needed Egwene to be raised to the Amyrlin Seat. Now, it needs her to BE the Amyrlin Seat. Lan and Rand are not the only ones who experience the weight of responsibility. Death may be lighter than a feather, but the prospect of having to distance yourself from previously close friends and establish yourself as an authority over them is not exactly "light" duty.

 

Nynaeve has the luxury of throwing her own independence in the faces of the Aes Sedai. Egwene does not. You don't have to like her to understand why her actions are necessary. No one else was so uniquely suited to give the White Tower what it needed at this crucial juncture than Egwene Al'Vere.

 

Like her or not, she is what she is because that was what she needed to be. The fact that she chose to act as she has only underscores the truth in Tam's words when he spoke to Rand about the will to choose. Egwene may have been "chosen" for this task just as surely as Rand was--ta'veren or not. Give the girl a break. She's swimming with the sharks and has managed to hold her own just fine. If she's abandoned some of the niceties that make people want to be her friend and sit and braid each other's hair and tell stories about hearth and home and husbands and babies, then so be it. Sometimes the cause is worth the losses you suffer on the way.

 

Clearly, Egwene was born to be a Blue.

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Two problems with the "she is what she needs to be" argument.

 

1. She became what she is long before she needed to. She was already showing the arrogance, hypocrisy and lack of self-reflection many criticise her for long before her accomplishments or position justified those character traits;

 

2. The role she must play may explain her actions toward others. It does not excuse them. It is possible to hold a high leadership position without throwing over your friends, never mind assaulting and torturing them.

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So, when Egwene tricks Nynaeve into giving advice based on being a young Wisdom in Emond's Field, the substance of Nynaeve's "Advice" is wrong somehow? I think if you read that passage with an unbiased eye, you'll see that what Nynaeve inadvertently advises Egwene to do is precisely what she has done--and in my opinion, precisely what she must do.

The advice is good, I don't see anyone here objecting to it. But there's a big difference between 'make sure your friends respect your station and don't get overly familiar in public" and Egwene's "I have no problem letting Nynaeve get almost killed in her test to gain a small political advantage by appearing impartial to a fault", to name just one example.

 

If you want a justification for her actions prior to that, I'd ask you to find a second plausible path that was as likely to lead to her current status. I don't think you'll find one.

So treating her friends terribly and being a blatant hypocrite was absolutely necessary to make her rise to an Amyrlin plausible? How exactly, for example, summoning the two brutes in TAR to scare Nynaeve to cover up her lies to the WO helped make her rise more plausible?

 

2. The role she must play may explain her actions toward others. It does not excuse them. It is possible to hold a high leadership position without throwing over your friends, never mind assaulting and torturing them.

Exactly. We can see it even in WoT, where many other characters managed to do it.

Edited by David Selig
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Mark, while I don't agree with you about much, I wouldn't want you banned. I'm pretty sure the acceptable language standard here has been described as "PG". Maybe you should edit that post.

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Well Egwene might be amyrlin but I believe Nynaeve would be far more legendary in history.

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Egwene is simply an highly insecure megalomaniac girl suffering from a Napoleonic complex. I shudder to think of a world with her in a prominent power position for an elongated period of time. While not as bad as a borderline sociopathic Elaida, it certainly isn't optimal.

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I dont hate her actions or her choices. I just hate the way she tries and succeeds to be Rands female equivalent. Its not that I think he shouldnt have one, its the way SHE does it. I mean Rand has the whole mass determination thing and has endured more pain than one can imagine. Egwenes response? Getting beaten by Aiel so she could stand being beaten by Elaida. Its too obvious, she tries to be Ta'veren, and somehow succeeds without actually being one.

 

You could say its Rands Ta'veren ta'marallelogram but Im not interested!

 

Rand: I have past life knowledge, you have seen it. I must break the Seals that I made.

Egwene: Been around for five minutes, get loads of praise for stuff anyone could do. Havent a clue about any of this. You shouldnt do it because I say so.

 

I cant wait til she is dead.

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I find her complete inability to admit to being wrong quite infuriating. Well, not that humility is exactly a strong point with most of RJ's characters but this is the one person I've never seen second guessing herself once. Nor does she ever try to see things from the other person's point of view when she disagrees with them. She constantly whines about Rand's ever-swelling head but has she ever looked at herself? And I think her points of view shift too quickly. First she wants to be Wisdom. Then Moirane tells her she can channel and suddenly her greatest loyalty is to the White Tower and cannot understand why her fellow Emond's Fielders have reservations about the Aes Sedai. Then she becomes an apprentice to the Wise Ones and suddenly wants to follow ji'e'toh.

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I dont care if her actions make sense. In fact, there really is nothing wrong with her outward actions, she has done a great service to the Light. I dont like her simply because she is a...well... i cant put it the way I want so i will just say she is not someone I would want to talk to.

 

She almost killed Nynaeve for her own political gain. (the Testing) Just so she could prove her dominance. I dont care if it was politically sound, for chirst sake, you dont do that to a friend. There is no excuse.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 18 March 2011

 

Brandon

They have very different perspectives, though, which often brings them to arguments. Nynaeve sees people; Egwene sees goals.

 

This is the source of the problem of Egwene, from the beasts mouth itself, so to speak.

 

Edit: oh, i suppose for those who like to say "oh but Rand..."

 

Yes, Rand was. But it is different for 3 reasons.

 

1.Almost every single character in the book hated him for it. They all coomplain about the Dragon being a force of destruction. He used people because he had to aswell. Yet he gets world emnity while Egwene is praised as the Lord Almighty.

 

2. Rand ALWAYS hated it. He always mentioned how it sickened him, doing what he was. Even at the height of his madness/darkness he was repulsed by his actions (see the little voice he refers to, and his reaction to nearly killing Tam)

 

3. A bit of point 1 and 2. He was slowly going insane. The taint messed him up badly. Everyone hated him for it, and he hated it himself, but he was insane, plus the DO focused almost all its efforts to turning Rand to the Shadow. Taint + DO trying to turn you = you cant help but be crazy.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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well lets hope egwene finally gets to eat some humble pie and learn a lesson from it and not become a tyrant like Elaida.

Edited by rand4747
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LOL another egwene bashing thread. when AMOL is done and dusted, egwene will be the most powerful person in all of randland (Disregarding logain) Not your lord dragon,not your 'legendary' nynaeve, your bootlicker moraine, not your grandma cadsuane, the aiel wise ones, the crazy ass woman married to mat, the sea folk etc etc

 

Egwene al vere. The sooner you accept her dominance the better really. The last one who didnt got her mind broken in half.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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LOL another egwene bashing thread. when AMOL is done and dusted, egwene will be the most powerful person in all of randland (Disregarding logain) Not your lord dragon,not your 'legendary' nynaeve, your bootlicker moraine, not your grandma cadsuane, the aiel wise ones, the crazy ass woman married to mat, the sea folk etc etc

 

Egwene al vere. The sooner you accept her dominance the better really. The last one who didnt got her mind broken in half.

 

We all do love to bash Egwene... maybe there is a reason for it. I don´t like how Egwene´s character is build up, she may have done some great things as Amyrlin (rooting out the Black Ajah, and unifying the Tower... if that can be called a good thing) but that doesn´t balance out her other actions, her lack of introspect and self-analysis, her hypocritical stand, and her view that people are no more then goals to further her agenda. I don´t know if she will be the most powerful in Randland, disregarding Logain of course. (And Logain would whip her bottom =)) If she will, I´ll still dislike her, cause I doubt she would have changed.

And my point is, it doesn´t matter if she is powerful, if that is the kind of person she is then I simply don´t care.

 

If Egwene is the most powerful after AMOL then fine, but she isn´t yet so I don´t see why that would be an argument. If she ISN´T the most powerful after AMOL then what will you say?

And the argument about her kicking Mesaana is a noargument. So what... Rand has faced off other Forsaken in the series. Proves nothing.

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I lurv me some Egwene. First overall pick, that girl. Her character got a bit Sandertarded in ToM.

 

Goal oriented no holds barred super-girls get me all messed up, shew! *looks around for change of pants

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Starting in tDR where she bickers with Nynaeve for no reason other than to argue because she wants to pull Nynaeve down a peg and show her she's not the Wisdom anymore.

 

As people have said, it's her blind arrogance and hypocrisy that is annoying with her. One of the things I hate most about the Seanchan is that the concept that their beliefs and structures are wrong are completely foreign to them - Channellers are dangerous animals, period. Of course the same could be said about the Whitecloaks - Aes Sedai are all Darkfriends for using the power, and anyone who doesn't like us is a Darkfriend. Three very opposing parties with equally arrogant and unyielding beliefs...

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