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Mrjon3s

Rand not killing women/protector

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He sends thousands of men into battle and watches them die but when a woman warrior dies he has to stop what hes doing and remember her face. This and that he wouldn't kill women forsaken even though the women forsaken seemed to do the worst things during the AOL really rubbed me the wrong way.

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Dunno about the women doing the worst things during AoL but I do agree with you on the not hurting women part especially considering the consequences.

Edited by Zentari

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Graendel would mind rape people.

Mesaana would have children killing their own parents.

Lanfear started releasing the dark one.

Semirhage forced people to tortue people.

Edited by Mrjon3s

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This is something we know to be a fault in Rand, its his way to try to not lose himself in what he has to do, and he ends up losing himself in large part because of it. He learns better in VoG, so yea, Rand was being an idiot.

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It was pretty crazy how he focused on the deaths of women.

 

...by which I mean, Rand absolutely was crazy in a literal sense, and that was one of the outward signs of his insanity. It was something he held on to as a way of holding onto his humanity. It was irrational. But, Rand was irrational, and became increasingly irrational as the series went on.

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I think it's wrong to say "he was being an idiot". That is just too simple.

 

The Westlands are a culture in which men fight and die and women.. don't. That's a universal trait amongst them from Shienar to Tanchico. It's all well and good for the Aiel but not for farm-boys like Rand who was brought up with certain values. At the time Rand's sanity was spiralling out of control. He was loosing his identity to the Dragon Reborn. His humanity was slowing being assumed into a legend. He was becoming faceless.

 

His attitude towards women was clearly a defence-mechanism. He was using them to try and hold on to himself. His natural desire not to see women hurt because they're.. well women, combined with the solid values ingrained in his culture, made it the obvious choice for him to anchor his very identity. Essentially whenever Rand looked into the eyes of a dead woman and took her name he was Rand. When he stood up he was the Dragon Reborn.

 

It wasn't healthy but it's damn understandable.

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Yeah, I was dissapointed when he wouldn't even touch Lanfear at the docks. I was dissapointed when he wouldn't hurt one evil female. He has improved a little bit on that but it was one of the things I hated about Rand.

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I think it's wrong to say "he was being an idiot". That is just too simple.

 

The Westlands are a culture in which men fight and die and women.. don't. That's a universal trait amongst them from Shienar to Tanchico. It's all well and good for the Aiel but not for farm-boys like Rand who was brought up with certain values. At the time Rand's sanity was spiralling out of control. He was loosing his identity to the Dragon Reborn. His humanity was slowing being assumed into a legend. He was becoming faceless.

 

His attitude towards women was clearly a defence-mechanism. He was using them to try and hold on to himself. His natural desire not to see women hurt because they're.. well women, combined with the solid values ingrained in his culture, made it the obvious choice for him to anchor his very identity. Essentially whenever Rand looked into the eyes of a dead woman and took her name he was Rand. When he stood up he was the Dragon Reborn.

 

It wasn't healthy but it's damn understandable.

 

 

See, the cultural reasoning is logical, but I hate accepting it. Seems like poor world building to me. I mean, in Randland, women are in general the ones in power. There is absolutely nothing to hint at any percieved weakness. Hence the protect women/don't harm them, a la the real world is misplaced. I think it was introduced to make the three farm boys more appealing to readers, by giving them values that are not uncommon in the real world.

I would have been able to ignore it, what really got me hating it was when in KoD, if I am not mistaken, Tuon thinks about Mat's qualms about harming a woman trying to kill him. She finds it weird, but she says something about it being oddly charming/appealing (dont have the book on me, so I am loosely paraphrasing). I mean, a Seanchan has absolutely no cultural excuse at all to see anything even remotely positive in it. When I read this but, my initial reaction was *gag* fan-service.

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I'm surprised so many feel so strongly about it.

 

For me, it seemed perfectly rational for Rand to be like that. The list always struck me as excessive, but the list was also how he hardenned himself when he felt he needed to, so I can understand that.

 

I think Perrin and MAt probably hold similar views, but haven't been in as many situations as Rand to act on them.

 

But anyway, far from hating Rand for refusing to hurt women, even Forsaken, it was something that let me identify with him strongly.

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I think he was clinging to what humanity he thought he could; the old Rand that wouldn't hurt a fly. He couldn't not kill anyone, so he tried to just not kill women. When you're holding onto sanity by a tether and you have the weight of the world on your shoulders, I can imagine something like that - your last connection to the humanity you're so scared of losing - becoming something of an obsession. It's irrational, but whoever said madness was rational?

 

I think it's quite telling that as he gets more and more affected by the madness he gets more irrational about not hurting women until he snaps in tGS. By that point, he doesn't have the humanity left.

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See, the cultural reasoning is logical, but I hate accepting it. Seems like poor world building to me. I mean, in Randland, women are in general the ones in power. There is absolutely nothing to hint at any percieved weakness. Hence the protect women/don't harm them, a la the real world is misplaced. I think it was introduced to make the three farm boys more appealing to readers, by giving them values that are not uncommon in the real world.

 

There can be no doubt that women in general are in power.. but they're maintained there by swords carried by men. Morgase can politic all she wants but when the swords come out she turns to Bryne. The mentality of not harming women is down to their physical weaknesses not their intellectual or moral weaknesses.

 

I would have been able to ignore it, what really got me hating it was when in KoD, if I am not mistaken, Tuon thinks about Mat's qualms about harming a woman trying to kill him. She finds it weird, but she says something about it being oddly charming/appealing (dont have the book on me, so I am loosely paraphrasing). I mean, a Seanchan has absolutely no cultural excuse at all to see anything even remotely positive in it. When I read this but, my initial reaction was *gag* fan-service.

 

I'm sorry but using an isolated princess who's lived in a tower for most of her life and been trained to the teeth to be her own last line of defence both intellectually and physically isn't a way to win an argument unless you're discussing an isolated princess who's lived in a tower for most of her life and been trained to the teeth to be her own last line of defence both intellectually and physically :biggrin:!

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This was something that really annoyed me as I was reading through the books the first time round. Saying that, I think I do have to excuse it in part, as Rand was growing more and more insane at the time...

 

On the one hand, I get that not wanting to hurt women is a "Two Rivers thing", judging by Mat and Perrin, as well as Rand. I also get that it was Rand's way of clinging to his humanity- women are less involved in the military in the Westlands (though, of course, there are many exceptions), and thus, less likely to die in combat, so in a way, its far easier to mourn just the women than everyone he sees die. In a way, of course, it seems to make him worse, because of course, people dying due to the Dragon Reborn is inevitable, there will always be women dying for his cause, or because of his cause. And by refusing to harm female Forsaken at first, plenty of women were probably killed or tortured at their hands. So, whilst I think it was his way to cling to his humanity, it just made his mental state worse, until he snaps in tGS, then realises he needs to substantially change his outlook.

 

On the other hand, it still kind of irritates me. I mean, I can understand mourning the women who've died senselessly- but surely everyone who dies senselessly should be mourned. And yes, mourn your fallen comrades, but only the women, again? It annoys me that Sulin (I believe thats the right name) had to point out so harshly that the Maidens want to fight, they can fight, and they shouldn't be mourned more than others. I mean, they're a trained warrior society, some of the most effective in the world. Don't hold them back from the fights, you fool! And, of course, the whole "not wanting to kill women even when they kill me". Stupid... In the end (and I'm going to phrase this horribly simplistically now, so bear with me), all of those who weren't actively involved in the battle, who died because of bubbles of evil, bad luck, etc.- they were all tragic deaths, all victims of something beyond their control. All those who were killed after going into battle knew that they might die- in Moiraine's case, perhaps worse- but they took that risk, they made that sacrifice willingly. I could understand more if Rand mourned the people who died without being directly involved in the battles. To do otherwise does give off an air of "Oh, well, the men made brave sacrifices, but the women were poor helpless victims who aren't at all responsible for the sacrifices they made". Which does seem to be kind of how he thinks of women, remembering when he and Min had sex, and Min was angry with him for being so apologetic about it, wondering if he really thought she was too weak and stupid not to tell him if she didn't want him.

 

So, on balance, I can understand the viewpoint- I get that Two Rivers men seem to have it, I get that Rand's humanity is slipping away and he's trying to keep a grip on it any way he can, I get that he does eventually realise this is not the way to go (which is around the time I stopped wanting to slap Rand upside the head whenever I read him), but my instinctive reaction when I read it is one of intense irritation.

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It's not like it's just Rand who does this. I find Gawyn's inability to listen to Egwene's words about knowing what she is doing more troubling. RJ and BS both seem to crack down on him about that particular peccadillo--right up until the point where it actually saves Egwene's life.

 

I actually find myself on Perrin's side when he goes through the same thing with Faile. "I'm sorry, dear. Yes, I love you. It's just that I was raised to not raise my voice--let alone my fist--to a woman. Any woman. Especially my own wife." I get the idea of Faile's frustration. She doesn't want Perrin to think of her as some fragile flower that needs protection. Bu-u-u-u-ut... At the same time, she wants him to "grab her by the scruff of the neck and show her who is stronger" (to quote her mother).

 

There is definitely some contradiction in the expectations here. Not unrealistic ones. In fact, those contradictions--and the confusion and frustration they bring to characters of both genders--are part of what makes the series' interaction between genders so... well... so real.

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I wonder whether Rand would be able to kill women after VoG. I hope so, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's back to being a complete idiot in this respect.

 

His inability to kill Lanfear at the docks was by far the dumbest act in the whole series, and that's really saying something. "I'll let the whole world get taken over the Dark One because I can't kill a woman who's as evil as it gets and is trying to kill me". :rolleyes: Rarely I have wanted to slap a fictional character upside his head so much as I did when I first read this scene.

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I wonder whether Rand would be able to kill women after VoG. I hope so, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's back to being a complete idiot in this respect.

 

His inability to kill Lanfear at the docks was by far the dumbest act in the whole series, and that's really saying something. "I'll let the whole world get taken over the Dark One because I can't kill a woman who's as evil as it gets and is trying to kill me". :rolleyes: Rarely I have wanted to slap a fictional character upside his head so much as I did when I first read this scene.

 

What's incredible is that, in that scene, Rand himself realizes how crazy he's acting, and yet still can not bring himself to kill Lanfear.

Edited by Master Ablar

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I wonder whether Rand would be able to kill women after VoG. I hope so, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's back to being a complete idiot in this respect.

I think he would be able to. But I think in general he'll be doing a lot less killing of people (except in terms of dispensing justice).

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Personally I felt this was one of the great strengths of Rand's character. It shows he's a goody, but remembering every face/name is a touch crazy :tongue: I find I can relate to him a lot more with this, rather than him sacrificing loads of people for the "greater good".

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there's a lot of chivalry in the WOT. it doesn't bother me.

 

rand gets over his problem killing female forsaken, though it's pretty much like playing bop the gopher. they just pop right back up again anyway.

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Rand was eccentric due to the madness etting in, the Two River's culture emphasized protecting women, and more importantly it was largely due to the guilt of having killed Ilyena that caused the worst of it.r

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See, the cultural reasoning is logical, but I hate accepting it. Seems like poor world building to me. I mean, in Randland, women are in general the ones in power. There is absolutely nothing to hint at any percieved weakness. Hence the protect women/don't harm them, a la the real world is misplaced. I think it was introduced to make the three farm boys more appealing to readers, by giving them values that are not uncommon in the real world.

That was probably part of it, but I don't think it's unrealistic for those attitudes to exist even in a world like WoT's. No matter who holds the power, women are still physically smaller and weaker, so there's always going to be an element of "pick on someone your own size." It's also a matter of ensuring your people's survival: 10 men and 100 women would be able to have more children than 100 men and 10 women.

 

See, the cultural reasoning is logical, but I hate accepting it. Seems like poor world building to me. I mean, in

I would have been able to ignore it, what really got me hating it was when in KoD, if I am not mistaken, Tuon thinks about Mat's qualms about harming a woman trying to kill him. She finds it weird, but she says something about it being oddly charming/appealing (dont have the book on me, so I am loosely paraphrasing). I mean, a Seanchan has absolutely no cultural excuse at all to see anything even remotely positive in it. When I read this but, my initial reaction was *gag* fan-service.

Tuon grew up in an environment where even siblings kill each other for power, so maybe it's not surprising that she would find it charming when Mat refuses to kill certain people, even if she doesn't understand his reasons. She reacted in much the same way when Mat set a snake free instead of killing it.

 

"A strange man, who lets poisonous serpents go," Tuon said. "From the fellow's reaction, I assume a blacklance is poisonous?"

"Very," he told her. "But snakes don't bite anything they can't eat unless they're threatened." He put a foot in the stirrup.

"You may kiss me, Toy."

I wonder whether Rand would be able to kill women after VoG. I hope so, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's back to being a complete idiot in this respect.

He has to know that whoever he asks to link with him might end up dead too, but he still mentioned Aviendha and Elayne as candidates, which suggests he's mostly gotten over the trauma of having killed Ilyena. On the other hand, he felt concern for Cyndane despite knowing who she was, so it wouldn't surprise me if he'll still have a hard time killing her.

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See, the cultural reasoning is logical, but I hate accepting it. Seems like poor world building to me. I mean, in Randland, women are in general the ones in power. There is absolutely nothing to hint at any percieved weakness. Hence the protect women/don't harm them, a la the real world is misplaced. I think it was introduced to make the three farm boys more appealing to readers, by giving them values that are not uncommon in the real world.

That was probably part of it, but I don't think it's unrealistic for those attitudes to exist even in a world like WoT's. No matter who holds the power, women are still physically smaller and weaker, so there's always going to be an element of "pick on someone your own size." It's also a matter of ensuring your people's survival: 10 men and 100 women would be able to have more children than 100 men and 10 women.

 

See, the cultural reasoning is logical, but I hate accepting it. Seems like poor world building to me. I mean, in

I would have been able to ignore it, what really got me hating it was when in KoD, if I am not mistaken, Tuon thinks about Mat's qualms about harming a woman trying to kill him. She finds it weird, but she says something about it being oddly charming/appealing (dont have the book on me, so I am loosely paraphrasing). I mean, a Seanchan has absolutely no cultural excuse at all to see anything even remotely positive in it. When I read this but, my initial reaction was *gag* fan-service.

Tuon grew up in an environment where even siblings kill each other for power, so maybe it's not surprising that she would find it charming when Mat refuses to kill certain people, even if she doesn't understand his reasons. She reacted in much the same way when Mat set a snake free instead of killing it.

 

Well, not raising your hand at a woman, i understand. not killing a murderous uber villainess, or a woman with a knife thrusting towards you, is retarded. i think that was part of where i was going with the Mat incident. not hitting a woman is fine, but the extreme, i will not defend myself from murder bit should have been restricted to Rand. It could indicate how warped his psyche is and you could postulate several reasons for it. When it was extended to Mat, it lost value in my mind. As some people have said on this thread, they relate to it and find it generally endearing- the playing to the galley is how I read it, and it doesn't sit well with me.

Your observation about Tuon is probably accurate, but I find it hard to believe that she would have been as approving of his actions, had he been as charitable towards the male assassins.

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There's still a difference between Mat's actions and Rand's. Mat has killed at least two women, without hesitation if not without remorse: Melindhra, who tries to kill him after hearing that he intends to go to Caemlyn, and he throws a knife, fatallly wounding her (TFOH51); and Renna, when they are travelling with Valan Luca, she stabs Egeanin and flees, and Mat and the Redarms go after her and he orders his men to shoot her (CoT29). I believe he also killed a third unnamed DF woman but I can't find that reference right now. Rand wouldn't even do that- not until, much later, he mercy-kills Liah, the Aiel woman who was lost in Shadar Logoth (ACOS41).

Edited by FarShainMael

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There's still a difference between Mat's actions and Rand's. Mat has killed at least two women, without hesitation if not without remorse: Melindhra, who tries to kill him after hearing that he intends to go to Caemlyn, and he throws a knife, fatallly wounding her (TFOH51); and Renna, when they are travelling with Valan Luca, she stabs Egeanin and flees, and Mat and the Redarms go after her and he orders his men to shoot her (CoT29). I believe he also killed a third unnamed DF woman but I can't find that reference right now. Rand wouldn't even do that- not until, much later, he mercy-kills Liah, the Aiel woman who was lost in Shadar Logoth (ACOS41).

didnt rand slay an anomomous df woman on his way to tear?

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There are differences now between the Rand who would not/could not use the full extent of his power on Lanfear at the docks and the Rand who came down changed after his epiphany on Dragonmount.

 

The "old" Rand had the same scruples as the "new" Rand. He still has an extreme distaste for killing or allowing the killing of women. The big difference is that he has now grown up. He is not unlike a lot of people in this world today who have pie-in-the-sky dreams of what a world would be like if only people were nicer to each other. As an ordinary joe--no big deal, just out living my own life--anyone can indulge himself in the high-minded ideals of Rand's (and Perrin's and Mat's) upbringing. When you assume a position of power or influence, though, pragmatism takes a much larger role than idealism. There are bad people in the world, and they have to be dealt with in ways that some people have a hard time stomaching. The Rand of ToM would have destroyed Lanfear on the docks--not because he is more cruel (that Rand would be the Rand post-attacking-Min but pre-"moment-of-enlightenment"), but because he knows that he has a duty to fulfill that takes precedence over his distaste for killing women. He cannot allow her to destroy him, the mountain that he carries on his shoulders cannot be eased in that way.

 

The younger Rand would have thought his "rule" about killing women to be inviolate; the wiser Rand knows that nothing--not even the destruction of a woman here or there--can be permitted to interfere with the completion of the responsibility that is his, uniquely and completely his.

 

The younger Rand would have thought that he could find some way out, some other option that would allow him to live and still not break his precious rule. The wiser Rand would have known that it was his responsibility to act in a distasteful way then (slaying a woman) in order to avoid an even more distasteful event (sa-a-a-a-y... the total victory of the Dark One) later.

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There's still a difference between Mat's actions and Rand's. Mat has killed at least two women, without hesitation if not without remorse: Melindhra, who tries to kill him after hearing that he intends to go to Caemlyn, and he throws a knife, fatallly wounding her (TFOH51); and Renna, when they are travelling with Valan Luca, she stabs Egeanin and flees, and Mat and the Redarms go after her and he orders his men to shoot her (CoT29). I believe he also killed a third unnamed DF woman but I can't find that reference right now. Rand wouldn't even do that- not until, much later, he mercy-kills Liah, the Aiel woman who was lost in Shadar Logoth (ACOS41).

didnt rand slay an anomomous df woman on his way to tear?

 

Ah yes - TDR36. He's in Murandy at the time.

 

(Edited)

Edited by FarShainMael

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