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Mat is Aemon


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Mat is Aemon Reborn, and Tuon is Elderene Reborn.

 

What is known about Aemon and Elderene - last KING and QUEEN of Mantherene where she was an Aes Sedai (POWER USER) bonded to Aemon - her husband and Warder. Aemon was leader of the Heart Guard and a general in battle, who also directed the Band of the Red Hand.

 

What we know of Tuon and Mat -- EMPRESS of the Seanchan, able to use the POWER (trains damane), her husband Mat is a general in battle, and has memories of directing battles in Mantherene prior to the Finn's giving him these extra memories.

 

If Rand who is Taveren can be Lews Therin Reborn, why cannot Matrim Cauthorn who is a Taveren be Aemon Reborn.

 

Your thoughts?

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Let's see:

1) We don't know Aemon was ta'veren, and there's nothing to indicate he was.

2) You're only proof that Yuon is Elderene reborn is that she is a power user, so Elderene could be approximately a quarter of the characters we've been introduced to.

3) Every other link you mention is very general. Why shouldn't it be Bryne and Morgase?

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It's a neat idea. I like it. I've thought similar things too.

 

When Mat first got his memories back, I figured all the Superkids had been some kind of heroes in previous lives.

 

Sadly, as the books wore on, it seemed that wasn't neccessarily the case.

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Let's see:

1) We don't know Aemon was ta'veren, and there's nothing to indicate he was.

2) You're only proof that Yuon is Elderene reborn is that she is a power user, so Elderene could be approximately a quarter of the characters we've been introduced to.

3) Every other link you mention is very general. Why shouldn't it be Bryne and Morgase?

 

1) Agreed, there is no proof that Aemon was Ta'veren, but he did lead the Band of the Red Hand for a time.

2) No, my only proof that Tuon is Elderene reborn is not just that she is a power user, but that she is a Queen/Empress, at the same time, and married to Mat, if in fact he is Aemon Reborn.

3) Bryne does not lead the Band of the Red Hand as Mat does, and The Band was present when Mantherene fell, it was at that time lead by Aemon. So no it isn't that general.

3) There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Mat was in Mantheren during the trolloc wars as a leader, and you failed to even consider that. Read TDR again where Mat has his Dream (pg 215 Chapter 19 Awakening). There is plenty of evidence there, and this is well before he met the Finn the second time. So being a general while Mantheren fell, supports him more than Bryne and Morgase.

On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently

Only Aemon could command the Heart Guard.

3) Bryne also didn't speak the old tongue during battle using Mantherene battle cries that refer to Elderene, but who did, let me think about it. Oh yes, Mat did as far back as book 1.

Edited by spoke
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For what it's worth Brandon has said:

 

sleepinghour

In TEotW, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

Terez

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?

Felix

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.

Brandon

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.

Brandon

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

 

For me I really dislike speculation that every character in the current books has to be a "hero" reborn.(Mat=Aemon, Elayne=Ilyena etc)

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Mat is Aemon Reborn, and Tuon is Elderene Reborn.

 

What is known about Aemon and Elderene - last KING and QUEEN of Mantherene where she was an Aes Sedai (POWER USER) bonded to Aemon - her husband and Warder. Aemon was leader of the Heart Guard and a general in battle, who also directed the Band of the Red Hand.

 

What we know of Tuon and Mat -- EMPRESS of the Seanchan, able to use the POWER (trains damane), her husband Mat is a general in battle, and has memories of directing battles in Mantherene prior to the Finn's giving him these extra memories.

 

If Rand who is Taveren can be Lews Therin Reborn, why cannot Matrim Cauthorn who is a Taveren be Aemon Reborn.

 

Your thoughts?

Might be true about Mat but the clues are way too scant to form anything like firm conclusions. It's a lot more likely that Mat might be of Aemon's blood but that is very different from being Aemon reborn. We have no examples of reborn souls being direct descendants of the originals. That's not how it seems to work in WoT. Definitely wild speculation about Tuon. Don't believe that one at all. We have no reason to believe that married people are reborn to be married again except for some Heroes of the Horn. For example, I'm quite sure that none of Rand's girls are Ilyena reborn. LT with his soul recognizing ability would have noticed something if she was. there is also no reason to believe that people are reborn to live similar lives in any way.

Edited by herid
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I think it's a strong possibilty that Mat is of Aemon's blood, (perhaps not a direct line but closer than Egwene). When he meets the Finns they look into his past and future, see his lineage and refer to him as "son of Battles", but it's unlikely that he (or Perrin) are heroes of the horn, else Hawkiwing would've referred to Mat by his title son of battles or Aemon, instead of trumpeter

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Exactly. That Mat is a blood relative of Aemon is in fact strongly implied. But that doesn't mean Mat is Aemon reborn. It doesn't even mean that Mat is a direct descendent of Aemon, and I doubt he is.

 

No, they said his Bloodline is strongly implied. That means direct decedent, not some third cousin forth removed crap. Direct, as in Aemon was his Great X 80 Grampa.

 

Either way, we do know that Mat is related to Aemon period but it's only speculation it's his actual soul reborn.

However...we do know that Mat is a reborn soul, the Finns leave us with no doubt on that one.

So making the leap of Mat = Aemon with the available information is a pretty short one.

And of course under that premise, making the leap of Tuon = Elderene isn't hard either.

 

Not saying I agree 100% but it's definitely a plausible theory with the given information.

 

I don't put a whole lot of stock into what recognition Hawkwing offered at the sounding of the Horn. All we know for sure is that the Dragon HAD to be there at that time and he needed to recognize him.

Anything else inferred from that moment is pure conjecture with no base imo.

 

 

 

Also just because it's fun....if anyone has studied the evolution of their own surname and others, it's kinda cool and making the following leap is interesting...

 

Aemon al Caar al Thorin

Carrthorin

Cauthon

:biggrin:

Edited by Finnssss
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bloodline [ˈblʌdˌlaɪn]

n

all the members of a family group over generations, esp regarding characteristics common to that group; pedigree

 

Bloodline does not, in fact, mean direct descent. Never has. If you are of the same bloodline as Dave, that means you and Dave had a common ancestor, not that Dave was your great-grandpa.

 

Except for that tiny detail, upon which your entire argument rests, I am sure your reasoning is flawless.

 

Personally, I find it very hard to believe that if Aemon and Eldrene had a child, that child would have immediately been lost to history. Far more likely that the child would be a rallying point for the shattered community of Manetheren, as Lan is for the Malkieri.

 

As for your argument from the name, it doesn't fly.

 

Paet al'Caar has a more directly similar name.

 

And the al Thor's as directly similar a name.

 

Perrin had an uncle named Carlin.

 

How about Dael al'Toram? Adan al'Caar? What about the Ayellans? (Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlin) What about Marisa Ayellin? Every one has a nominal connection to the royal house of Manetheren at least as clear as Mat's, and a hell of a lot clearer than Tuon's.

Edited by randsc
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THe problem here is that Aemon is pretty insignificant besides being a cool story to tell way back in book 1. It doesn't add to Mat's character in any way especially since he has so many other fragments of other men in his head anyways. Why take a person who hates nobility and then make him the reincarnation of a king for no particular reason?

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2) No, my only proof that Tuon is Elderene reborn is not just that she is a power user, but that she is a Queen/Empress, at the same time, and married to Mat, if in fact he is Aemon Reborn.

 

Elayne is a Queen and Power user. Plus she actually does rule part of the land that used to be Manetheren.

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bloodline [ˈblʌdˌlaɪn]

n

all the members of a family group over generations, esp regarding characteristics common to that group; pedigree

 

Bloodline does not, in fact, mean direct descent. Never has. If you are of the same bloodline as Dave, that means you and Dave had a common ancestor, not that Dave was your great-grandpa.

 

Except for that tiny detail, upon which your entire argument rests, I am sure your reasoning is flawless.

 

Personally, I find it very hard to believe that if Aemon and Eldrene had a child, that child would have immediately been lost to history. Far more likely that the child would be a rallying point for the shattered community of Manetheren, as Lan is for the Malkieri.

 

As for your argument from the name, it doesn't fly.

 

Paet al'Caar has a more directly similar name.

 

And the al Thor's as directly similar a name.

 

Perrin had an uncle named Carlin.

 

How about Dael al'Toram? Adan al'Caar? What about the Ayellans? (Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlin) What about Marisa Ayellin? Every one has a nominal connection to the royal house of Manetheren at least as clear as Mat's, and a hell of a lot clearer than Tuon's.

 

 

 

First off it's not even my argument heh. I even stated that I'm not 100% sold on it.

I just pointed out that's there more than enough information to make the leap, more info than most theories around here have to go on, that's for sure.

 

Second, maybe I was being too anal about Bloodlines but all I was really trying to get across is that Mat has a strong bloodline to Aemon and isn't some distant cousin ten times removed.

 

Third, my thing about the name evolution was added as an aside, it was NOT part of an argument, merely an interesting, at least imo, aside.

 

My exact view is this, Mat is definitely a Reborn soul and is a strong blood relative to Aemon. That's it so far, that's all I'm 100% sold on.

If, I'm saying IF it turns out that Mat is indeed Aemon's soul reborn, then I would definitely be on board to Tuon also being Eldrene reborn.

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Let's see:

1) We don't know Aemon was ta'veren, and there's nothing to indicate he was.

2) You're only proof that Yuon is Elderene reborn is that she is a power user, so Elderene could be approximately a quarter of the characters we've been introduced to.

3) Every other link you mention is very general. Why shouldn't it be Bryne and Morgase?

 

1) Agreed, there is no proof that Aemon was Ta'veren, but he did lead the Band of the Red Hand for a time.

2) No, my only proof that Tuon is Elderene reborn is not just that she is a power user, but that she is a Queen/Empress, at the same time, and married to Mat, if in fact he is Aemon Reborn.

3) Bryne does not lead the Band of the Red Hand as Mat does, and The Band was present when Mantherene fell, it was at that time lead by Aemon. So no it isn't that general.

3) There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Mat was in Mantheren during the trolloc wars as a leader, and you failed to even consider that. Read TDR again where Mat has his Dream (pg 215 Chapter 19 Awakening). There is plenty of evidence there, and this is well before he met the Finn the second time. So being a general while Mantheren fell, supports him more than Bryne and Morgase.

On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently

Only Aemon could command the Heart Guard.

3) Bryne also didn't speak the old tongue during battle using Mantherene battle cries that refer to Elderene, but who did, let me think about it. Oh yes, Mat did as far back as book 1.

1) Mat's BotRH was named after Manetheren's BotRH.

3) You can't say that just because one this doesn't match up they aren't the same person. We know that not all lives are the same. Bryne leads an army, was chief general of the nation which contains the land of Manetheren, and is married to a queen who actually is known to channel.

3 again) The Trolloc Wars were (I think) around 300 years long. There were probably a lot of kings during those times, let alone leaders.

3 for the third time) And finally, Bryne was just an example of how parallels don't necessarily mean that you are a reincarnation of somebody. There is a HotH who is described as a peace maker. That doesn't mean that he is reincarnated as everybody who ever wrote a treaty.

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The long and short of it is: We know that Mat is either directly descended from Aemon or Aemon reborn. We don't know which, and probably never will for sure, but Old Blood seems more likely because of geography. It could possibly be both, which might explain why the Old Blood is so strong in Mat, but that could be explained by other things like ta'veren and old things coming back, and none of the other instances of rebirth seem to be tied to blood.

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The long and short of it is: We know that Mat is either directly descended from Aemon or Aemon reborn. We don't know which, and probably never will for sure, but Old Blood seems more likely because of geography. It could possibly be both, which might explain why the Old Blood is so strong in Mat, but that could be explained by other things like ta'veren and old things coming back, and none of the other instances of rebirth seem to be tied to blood.

 

Nice proclamation .. But no, we don't Know he's either one. It's unconfirmed speculation; but of course it's now been proclaimed, so it must be so. If some returned Hero hails him as Aemon when Mat next toots his horn .. THEN I'm certain it'll be "I told ya' so" time.

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Unless he had an aiel mistress. (Just joking. I don't believe that.)

 

I don't know who Mat was, or who has Aemon's soul now. I'm not convinced that Mat is Aemon reborn. I don't think we have enough info. I guess it's possible, though.

 

 

 

1) Agreed, there is no proof that Aemon was Ta'veren, but he did lead the Band of the Red Hand for a time.

2) No, my only proof that Tuon is Elderene reborn is not just that she is a power user, but that she is a Queen/Empress, at the same time, and married to Mat, if in fact he is Aemon Reborn.

Yeah, those are similarities (Mat being a leader of an army & Tuon being a channeler). I don't know what it means, if indeed...

 

Birgitte is involved with the same soul again and again. Rand on the other hand has 3 women now. Soulmates, or not?

Edited by Nightstrike
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Unless he had an aiel mistress. (Just joking. I don't believe that.)

 

I don't know who Mat was, or who has Aemon's soul now. I'm not convinced that Mat is Aemon reborn. I don't think we have enough info. I guess it's possible, though.

 

 

 

1) Agreed, there is no proof that Aemon was Ta'veren, but he did lead the Band of the Red Hand for a time.

2) No, my only proof that Tuon is Elderene reborn is not just that she is a power user, but that she is a Queen/Empress, at the same time, and married to Mat, if in fact he is Aemon Reborn.

Yeah, those are similarities (Mat being a leader of an army & Tuon being a channeler). I don't know what it means, if indeed...

 

Birgitte is involved with the same soul again and again. Rand on the other hand has 3 women now. Soulmates, or not?

 

 

Maybe the three becoming one is Elayne, Min and Avi...wouldn't that be a kick in the ass eh :biggrin:

 

 

*Runs away quickly*

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