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Verin (spoilers) and what you knew


NitroS
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im quite new to wot and started reading after TGS was released but you lots of theories going around did anyone predict the theory of verin being black ajah or was that a complete suprise to everyone? i noticed in the GH that verin refered to the do and the great lord or something along those lines did u theories work it out? what about the matt and hes ashendare(sp)?

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Verin has been suspected since she was caught lying in TGH. See the WOT FAQ: http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/88 :smile:

I never understood even in hindsight why Verin told such a blatant and easily discoverable lie in TGH. She was very careful about it at all other times. She had no need to appeal to Moiraine's authority to join Ingtar's party. so why lie about it?

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I always thought she was a badass, but never knew exactly how much until all was revealed.

 

Also, I liked the philosophical/theological aspect to that revelation. She sold her soul to the Dark One, but never truly served him and was secretly serving the Light the entire time. It brings up the question of her soul and if she is condemned by the Creator for eternity (or until the next Age or whatever). Imagine how pissed the DO is with her: she swore her soul to him and then betrayed him by finding a loophole right before dying. I have a feeling her torment is going to be infinitely greater than anyone else's.

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Yeah it's a bunch of "I know eternity will suck, but must do one tiny iota of goodness".

 

I must admit I didn't see the BA thing coming. I never really caught the Verin is different hype until coming here and reading theories about her.

 

 

 

(Tiny Iota btw... what a brilliant sportsman)

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Yes, to be fair, the fan-base was generally divided between those who thought her basically good and those who thought her BA. It turned out both sides were right, and I guess both now claim their 'rightness' was more 'profound' (yes, I do as well, I guess). I didn't really see anyone suggest something similar to the truth before TGS, but it's entirely possible someone did.

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I didnt think she was Black, I didnt even think she lied outright, I thought she was bound and was just telling a misleading halftruth of "Moiraine sent me" but that the words themselves meant nothing because she hadnt stated when or where Moiraine had sent her.

 

So yeah, I got that one wrong.

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I never thought much about Mat and the Ashandarei - much to my shame!

 

As for Verin, when she told her lie about being sent by Moiraine, I thought "oh, she is definitely BA". But I am easily swayed by other peoples arguments so when people put up their theories on here that she wasn't BA, that she released herself from the OR for other reasons (can't remember the reasons), I was unsure again.

 

So it was still a lovely surprise when she went to Egwene and told her she was a double agent BA working for the light! It was great! I loved Verin... Her sacrifice was huge - knowing she would burn for all eternity (well, hopefully only until Rand does what he has to do - hopefully then all the poor souls being held and tortured by the DO will be released, the same way his mother was...) and still continuing on with her mission to identify BA sisters - absolutely awesome character was Verin!

 

:-)

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I didn't see it coming either... I was stunned actually. I don't know if that means that I miss alot, but I didn't notice any of those clues on that list. I guess that's one of the main reasons I've started my first re-read of the series. I've already caught so much more then I did the first time. I'm about 100 pages into the TGH and I know that I am going to be playing a lot more attention to Verin this time around.

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Funny enough, although the idea that she might be BA was always in the back of my mind, I was still stunned by the revelation. I guess because it was such a kick-ass showdown. I mean "hi Eg, your dress is green, and so I am Black" - how insane/brilliant was that? :wub: It was so different from any other scene in WoT to just have someone come up with a startling truth about themselves in such a blunt, straightforward way.

 

I always thought she was a badass, but never knew exactly how much until all was revealed.

 

Also, I liked the philosophical/theological aspect to that revelation. She sold her soul to the Dark One, but never truly served him and was secretly serving the Light the entire time. It brings up the question of her soul and if she is condemned by the Creator for eternity (or until the next Age or whatever). Imagine how pissed the DO is with her: she swore her soul to him and then betrayed him by finding a loophole right before dying. I have a feeling her torment is going to be infinitely greater than anyone else's.

 

Agreed. Verin will always be one of WoT's greatest for that. One of a kind!

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Here's the thing: we don't know for certain that the Dark One knows that Verin betrayed him. As Demandred noted in Lord of Chaos, the Dark One can be surprisingly ignorant of what's happening in the world. It's even possible that the Dark One is attuned to the Oaths taken to him, and would only be aware of betrayal if the Oaths were broken - since Verin only broke her Oaths in spirit, rather than the specific wording of them, the Dark One might be under the impression that Verin has been a faithful servant. After all, she seems to have been a member of the Black Ajah that the other Black Ajah stepped carefully around, and Verin herself alludes to having committed a great many sins as a member of the Black Ajah.

 

If the Dark One can sense her ambition, the more the better. If nothing else, she was ambitious, if not in quite the way that the Dark had in mind. I think that it'd be vaguely awesome to see the Dark One give her a new body, and raise his "faithful" servant to the rank of Chosen. :myrddraal:

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I will say that Verin's death was one of the best ever written. I even....felt....some emotion :(

 

But I don't think Verin is being tortured.

Edited by MauricXe
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I am interested to know if anybody has any idea if Verin did anything to Alanna.

 

Back in Winter's Heart when Alanna suddenly became unconscious, Cadsuane saw that Verin was very afraid. In TOM, we find out that Alanna received one of Verin's letter before disappearing. \

 

I am curious as to what Verin did ( if any ) to Alanna, did she compel the green sister? or were they in on a secret plan between the two of them?

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I don't think Verin did anything to Alanna. She collapsed in a reaction to Rand getting bonded to Elayne, Min, and Avi. (WH13)

 

Yes, I agree that Verin did not cause Alanna to collapse, what I am wondering is why Verin seemed very afraid when Alanna did collapse.

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I had my suspicions of her being BA, but I always thought she was good, or at least helping Rand get to the Last Battle (much like Elza).

 

I wont say I saw the whole Double Agent thing, it was new to me, but I had thought she was a reforming DF or something like that, so it didnt come as a totally big suprise.

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I remember Stone Dog's page back in the 90's had a Loony Theory that Verin was an agent for the Light, turns out he was bang on the money!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Do we know if it was Verin that brought the Trollocs to the Two Rivers in tSR?

I'm pretty sure that was Padan Fain (again), because remember he was trying to lure Rand by hurting him again, since Toman Head didn't go as he planned, and so he brought the Whitecloaks as well and corrupted as many of them as possible. That or it was Isam/Luc because remember he was around that time as well, killing wolves.

 

What I do wonder about is how much Verin knew about Isam/Luc around that time because remember he was lurking around there as well in that time, and Verin if nothing else had one hell of a good memory for things like history.

 

Also with Verin, I've always wondered what was in Corianin Nedeal's notes that she decided against giving to Egwene, and even considered destroying. My OWN theory with that is that Verin had proof that Corianin Nedeal was BA herself, and thus would give Egwene proof of the BA (beyond what Egwene already knew when chasing down Liandrin's 13). I am really hoping that in all that info she gave Egwene there at the end of her life there is an explanation with that where we get Egwene's POV and her thoughts on it.

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Do we know if it was Verin that brought the Trollocs to the Two Rivers in tSR?

it was Slayer who brought the Trollocs, not Verin and not Fain.

 

From the thick branch of a leafy oak on the edge of the Westwood, Ordeith stared at Emond’s Field, a mile to the south. It was impossible. Scourge them. Flay them. Everything had been going according to plan. Even Isam had played into his hands. Why did the fool stop bringing Trollocs? He should have brought in enough to turn the Two Rivers black with them!

-tSR, Ch56

 

He originally brought them to hunt Fain. He even told Perrin about it himself.

 

 

“It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died.” Slayer’s voice became angry. “The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower.” Abruptly he chuckled. “But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out. What do you say to that, Goldeneyes?”

-tSR, Ch 43

Edited by herid
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Still re reading tSR, so I would have gotten to it eventually, but I'm impatient. I guess part of what I want to know in regards to Verin is, do we have any idea how much blood was on her hands from being BA?

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I don't think Verin did anything to Alanna. She collapsed in a reaction to Rand getting bonded to Elayne, Min, and Avi. (WH13)

 

Yes, I agree that Verin did not cause Alanna to collapse, what I am wondering is why Verin seemed very afraid when Alanna did collapse.

 

The way I figured this, was that Verin was the one of the only AS who knew that Alanna had bonded Rand, as she was there when it happened. She might have been afraid that Alanna collapsed because Rand had been seriously injured or killed.

Edited by Dakota
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