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Moiraine's 'death' like Gandalf's 'death'


alykyn
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  1. 1. Did you ever think about how similar their deaths/reborns were?



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Just curious if anyone has already talked about how Moiraine 'died' by fighting Lanfear and toppling into the

door frame was almost exactly like Gandalf fighting the Balrog and toppling into the dark abyss.

 

And then!

 

Both of them appear 'changed' and apparently more powerful than before (sort of in Moiraine's case)

 

Anyway, I guess RJ 'borrowed' that a bit, but I never noticed it until someone started mentioning something about how the two were alike.

 

Thoughts?

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Moiraine and Gandalf are, indeed, cut from similar cloth. I believe the WoT FAQ over on WoTMania had a good part about this actually.

 

They are also similar in the role they play within the story (early story in Mo's case).

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Sooner or later the wise, older character has to exit stage left so the bright young thing can step up and rule without the safety net of the wise older character having their back. Then the trick is--every one loves wise, older character, and wants to see them again, so how do you reintroduce them?

 

Gandalf and Moiraine are far from the only example--Dumbledore's another, and Obi Wan, those too taking the ghostly path of speaking from beyond the grave, but still the same principal.

 

It's a fairly generic technique. RJ's trapping them in an insane hell dimension was quite nice. In Buffy Giles simply moves to England... oh wait, never mind. Same dif.

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Actually, Moiraine and Cyndane both emerged much weaker than before.

Moiraine got a really powerful angreal, but that's kind of different, as while angreal aren't exactly common, there's lots kicking around, and another sister with a smilarily powerful one (like the white rod Egwene and Siuan use in TGS) they'd be just as powerful.

 

But yes, the circumstnces are quite similar, harkenning back to the massive similarities between The Eye of the World and Lord of the Rings

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it was speculated and offered as evidence long before we were able to read Thom's letter.

 

However, I will say that this was done much more tastefully that the Gandalf's because he was just sent back without explanation as to why or how.

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it was speculated and offered as evidence long before we were able to read Thom's letter.

 

However, I will say that this was done much more tastefully that the Gandalf's because he was just sent back without explanation as to why or how.

 

 

No, I know. It's just that never occurred to me that Moiraine LITERALLY fell through an abyss JUST like Gandalf did.

 

Maybe because I never really cared much for LotR I didnt see the connection before.

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So far everyone is split about 50/50 on noticing how similar Moiraine and Gandalf's deaths were, so it appears I'm not the only one who didn't notice that her falling thru the doorway ter'angreal fighting Lanfear was extremely similar to Gandalf falling through the dark abyss fighting the Balrog.

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However, I will say that this was done much more tastefully that the Gandalf's because he was just sent back without explanation as to why or how.

 

Gandalf was meant to be mysterious though.

If the book said, "Oh I died, went to Valinor, chilled with Manwe a little, then he gave me a new body and told me to go back because I still had work to do" - then it would be off character.

We are encouraged to read a little more into the LOTR texts, especially if you're looking for hints into the wizards.

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However, I will say that this was done much more tastefully that the Gandalf's because he was just sent back without explanation as to why or how.

 

Gandalf was meant to be mysterious though.

If the book said, "Oh I died, went to Valinor, chilled with Manwe a little, then he gave me a new body and told me to go back because I still had work to do" - then it would be off character.

We are encouraged to read a little more into the LOTR texts, especially if you're looking for hints into the wizards.

 

when I say that this one was done more tastefully, I am speaking of not how it was done specifically, but how it was foreshadowed. With Moraine, there were lots of clues that it was coming, and careful reading would have prepared the reader for it. With Gandalf, there was very little foreshadowing and nothing to prepare the reader, so when he appeared again, it was like a slap in the face, no way to see it coming. That is what I mean by "tastefully done."

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when I say that this one was done more tastefully, I am speaking of not how it was done specifically, but how it was foreshadowed. With Moraine, there were lots of clues that it was coming, and careful reading would have prepared the reader for it. With Gandalf, there was very little foreshadowing and nothing to prepare the reader, so when he appeared again, it was like a slap in the face, no way to see it coming. That is what I mean by "tastefully done."

 

what about the fact that aragorn is adamant about not going into moria, and says that he fears something bad will happen to gandalf?

Oh and gandalf was not sent back by Manwe but by direct divine intervention of the Creator (Eru) Himself - the fourth time He has intervened (after giving the Dwarves sentience, sending Luthien and Beren back to live a mortal life, and destroying Numenor and removing the Undying Lands).

 

Are they similar? In a sense yes, the wise magic user is taken away, leaving the hero to fend for themselves without benefit of the magic user's advice or knowledge. Then the magic user comes back and is key to aiding the final victory (I am assuming moiraine is back for more than just snuggling up with Thom). Its better than the rip off of Allanon vs a skull bearer in Paranor and falling off into the firepits there (although allanon comes back after 10 minutes :rolleyes: )

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I personally didn't think about how similar their returns were because there's plenty of stories where the mentor/wise guide etc dies to come back in some way. This to me wasn't more specifically like Gandalf's than any other death/return.

 

A lot of people like to mention the two stories in the same breath but I really don't see the similarities because every text influences every other way back to the Bible and beyond.

 

I'm not really a LotR fan and watching the films and knowing they're there means I never have to read the book again, but on the other hand I can't wait for WoT to finally finish so I can start the reread! :mat:

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Had not yet read Towers of Midnight. Would vote when I have.

 

 

I have seen similarities::

-both have fought with a servant of the enemy when they fell

-both were like trapped in another place

-both have magical abilities.

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Well moiraine isn't exactly coming back stronger though. Gandalf came back with nearly all his Maiar powers restored.

 

With the angreal, she is stronger than before. Plus, I think she's probably armed with knowledge now. I bet she uses it well.

 

 

Exactly. While most channelers seem to totally forget about angreals 95% of the time I'm sure that Moiraine won't just be leaving her (basically) sa'angreal under her kitchen cupboard.

Edited by alykyn
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Well moiraine isn't exactly coming back stronger though. Gandalf came back with nearly all his Maiar powers restored.

 

With the angreal, she is stronger than before. Plus, I think she's probably armed with knowledge now. I bet she uses it well.

 

she had it before and didn't like using it, even if she uses it it's not by choice.

 

and anyways, she isn't on the same level as gandalf is in tolkien's universe. her presence is not about her strength.

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Actually, Moiraine and Cyndane both emerged much weaker than before.

Moiraine got a really powerful angreal, but that's kind of different, as while angreal aren't exactly common, there's lots kicking around, and another sister with a smilarily powerful one (like the white rod Egwene and Siuan use in TGS) they'd be just as powerful.

 

But yes, the circumstnces are quite similar, harkenning back to the massive similarities between The Eye of the World and Lord of the Rings

 

That is the same angreal that Lanfear used against Rand.

 

With it Moraine could be around Cyndane's strength...

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Gandalf's was far superior. The guy fell into an abyss of darkness and drowned a bloody Balrog. If that isn't enough he then spends eight days hunting the thing and driving it to confrontation. Then two days and nights of constant battle with it. A Balrog.

 

Gandalf was meant to be mysterious though.

If the book said, "Oh I died, went to Valinor, chilled with Manwe a little, then he gave me a new body and told me to go back because I still had work to do" - then it would be off character.

We are encouraged to read a little more into the LOTR texts, especially if you're looking for hints into the wizards.

 

Actually he wasn't given a new body. He was restored to his own body and awoke naked. Gwaihir the Eagle then took him to Lothlórien where his body was healed and he was clothed in his new robes as the head of his order.

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It's interesting you bring this up because as I am nearing the conclusion of the series I can't help but notice that similarities to LOTR seem to be surfacing - Moirane's return from the Dead, Aaragorn/Lan's acceptance of his kingship, Orcs/Trollocs pouring from Mordor/The Blight and overruning Gondor/Saldea, just to name a few.

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Well as I told in another thread before they both are placed as "mentor"s in the stories. it's no surprise they're similiar. As for this aspect, one difference is that gandalf shined, sparkled and literally leveled up like a game hero unlike moiraine whose powers are reduced.

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Aaragorn/Lan's acceptance of his kingship

 

This is one of the things I hate about Jackson's perversion of the characters. In the book Aragorn always accepted his kingship and was never scared of his heritage. It was simply a matter of the appropriate timing for him to take his throne.

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