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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
SingleMort

Rand Should Die

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My favorite movie is Gladitor and I think one of the big reasons is that he dies at the end. BUT...if his family had still been alive and he had died I would not have liked it anywhere near as much. Same goes with I am Legend. Therefore I propose that if Rand dies for good, and I am not sure which way I feel about that yet, then the three women should be dead as well. I mean seriously how awesome would that be. The three of them dying to protect him as he completes the...dragon stuff, and then him dying. I would feel pretty bad about all their kids but I just don't like the idea of the three wifes living on without Rand. Any thoughts?

Edited by Turok

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I have hoped for a long time that the last line of the series would be: "I have won again, Lews Therin."

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I have hoped for a long time that the last line of the series would be: "I have won again, Lews Therin."

We know it won't be, from RJ. I expect to hear it when Rand dies, but I expect that to be before the Last Battle is won.

 

I wrote up something concerning the prophecies and the general run of feelings on the subject from a literary perspective (which are, of course, subject to the prophecies in the end):

 

Blood on the Rocks

 

Of particular interest should be the Death Theories section, but the rest is of course pertinent.

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My feelings are ambivalent- I want Rand to die once and for all and I also want him to die and then be resurrected. The former could be the best from the literary PoV (the sad endings are usually the best ones, though they hurt), the latter would be the best for me or otherwise I will certainly die of crying. I would like to see him alive after the victorious battle... but, yeah, what would he actually do, what would they all do? I suppose it's better not to worry about that and think too much, but trust that RJ invented the best ending possible. I want to be surprised and amazed.

 

I'm of the opinion that we have already seen Rand 'die' and be 'resurrected' on Dragonmount in VoG. Certainly the old Darth Rand no longer exists; neither does the LTT-personality.

 

However, 'twice to live and twice to die' suggests - to me - that Rand may die a second time, this time in the body, and (probably) end up in T'A'R. If the Arthurian parallel hold, he won't be coming back after that. Until Mat blows the HoV, at least..

 

I think the DO is not to die. I used to wonder whether the war between him and the Creator was to end and if the Shadow could be annihilated... and if they would go to heaven then :biggrin: But having read all the interviews etc made me wiser. I guess, since both the Creator and the DO are beyond the Pattern the are not actually going to destroy each other, they just provide a balance. But... hmmm, right now I started to wonder again (I suppose the thread like this already exists and of course all the question below are the RAFO ones... but what do you think?): RJ said that the Dragon can just lose once- so let's say the Light's champion is finally annihilated by the DO... and now what? Ok, he can destroy the Pattern, transform the world due to his own will etc, but is it equal to the Creator's defeat? Don't think so- he will still exist. But it would certainly be the world's defeat, the Dragon's defeat. Anyway, the eternal war continues... and what will the Creator do? Will he heve another champion? Will the tables turn and he will be imprisoned instead of the DO (Don't think it would be possible given that he was the one who created the DO and thus had an advatage over him... but maybe the DO was not actually created and they are both eternal beings (probably yes)? If the war is endless- and they cannot destroy each other or do not intend to do it, then the win simply boils down to: who created the world on his own image and who is confined. Am I right, is this all about that? Anyway, still I don't really understand why the DO desires to convert Rand to the Shadow just as strongly as he wants to break free (or at least he did want- I haven't even read the book 10 yet), if the former means a draw and the latter means a win. Of course He could have lied to the Forsaken.

 

AIUI, RJ's Creator did not make the Dark One, they have existed from eternity alongside each other, forever at war. So no, I don't think the DO could actually be destroyed.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism#Duotheism.2C_Bitheism.2C_Ditheism

 

Neither do I think the Dragon can lose. If that were possible, in the infinity of time that the Wheel has existed, that would already have happened.

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I agree that I don't think the Dragon can lose and I would bet my lifesavings that he doesn't. But it does make me wonder about that line of the Dark One's "I have won again Lews Therin." Where does he get "again" from. surely that implies that he has won before?

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I agree that I don't think the Dragon can lose and I would bet my lifesavings that he doesn't. But it does make me wonder about that line of the Dark One's "I have won again Lews Therin." Where does he get "again" from. surely that implies that he has won before?

 

Have a look at this thread.

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Neither do I think the Dragon can lose. If that were possible, in the infinity of time that the Wheel has existed, that would already have happened.

 

I'm not convinced yet. I actually hope he can lose, otherwise it's not hazardous enough (and there's no actual balance if the DO is doomed to lose or achieve a draw at most). Just because it has not happened so far doesn't mean it's impossible. And we don't actually know how long has the world of the Wheel existed, do we? It's not the world which is eternal, but he, who created it at some point. But, of course, I may be wrong, I just don't like an option of ever invictible champion, that's all.

Edited by gwenifer

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We're on complicated ground here, and it helps to have some knowledge of physics. Fasten your safety belts, this is going to get bumpy..

 

First off, the Wheel and the Pattern it generates, all of space-time, is a product of RJ's Creator. The Creator made time, and therefore must exist outside time. Think of him as a computer programmer running a simulation. From his point of view, he put the whole program in at once, but the people in the simulation don't know that. From their PoV, it's always been there and always will be there.

 

Until the DO hacks it, that is.. or just pulls the plug!

Edited by FarShainMael

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Until the DO hacks it, that is.. or just pulls the plug!

 

The "Wheel" is some kid sitting at his game console playing 7 games in turn, and the Forsaken are the Bosses on the Way, and Moridin is the Big Boss Fight. The Dark One wins when the kid gets angry when he keeps losing to the Big Boss, and throws the computer at the wall.

Edited by Carnivean

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Until the DO hacks it, that is.. or just pulls the plug!

 

The "Wheel" is some kid sitting at his game console playing 7 games in turn, and the Forsaken are the Bosses on the Way, and Moridin is the Big Boss Fight. The Dark One wins when the kid gets angry when he keeps losing to the Big Boss, and throws the computer at the wall.

 

I love it!!! :biggrin:

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The Prophecies seem to indicate Rand dying at Tarmon Gaidon. Whether it is a permanent death is uncertain.

If his other prophecies (Viewings/Dreams/Foretellings) have not yet been fulfilled by Tarmon Gaidon, then he would be resurrected in his own body.

 

The means of his resurrection I would guess would be either of these::

-balefire

-a technique similar to construct making

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If Rand has a "body swap" I'm gonna protest.

 

Rand dying is probably a good idea. The world doesn't need him anymore and I don't think he wants to be needed.

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If Rand has a "body swap" I'm gonna protest.

 

Rand dying is probably a good idea. The world doesn't need him anymore and I don't think he wants to be needed.

Agreed on the bodyswap thing especially. I really hope that the bodyswap theory doesn't come to pass.

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I really dont understand why people dont like the idea of body swapping. To me, its alot cooler, and better, then just being ressurected somehow. We already know that souls arent confined to a body, and that they can be relocated (i.e the Forsaken.) Rand being on the verge of death with a victorious Moridin standing over him, forces the body swap, theres a battle of immense wills, and then Moridin finds himself in Rands dying body. To me, that would be an amazing and strangely just way for Ishy to die; his ultimate victory turned against him. The foundations are already in place, the connection is there between them both, and we know it isnt impossible.

 

That is far better then just the stock standard "bring back from the dead" that happens to almost every major hero since Greek tragedy.

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^^Well you have assumed that those of us against Rand's body swap want his resurrection.

 

 

I want neither.

 

Truth be told, I do see some sort of "death" and "resurrection" happening because of the "foundations" set in place for something like this to happen. I'm just hoping it doesn't go down.

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I really dont understand why people dont like the idea of body swapping. To me, its alot cooler, and better, then just being ressurected somehow. We already know that souls arent confined to a body, and that they can be relocated (i.e the Forsaken.) Rand being on the verge of death with a victorious Moridin standing over him, forces the body swap, theres a battle of immense wills, and then Moridin finds himself in Rands dying body. To me, that would be an amazing and strangely just way for Ishy to die; his ultimate victory turned against him. The foundations are already in place, the connection is there between them both, and we know it isnt impossible.

 

That is far better then just the stock standard "bring back from the dead" that happens to almost every major hero since Greek tragedy.

To me, it sounds like something you'd see in a cheesy sci-fi movie from the 70s. It doesn't seem... fitting in the series for them to swap bodies.

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If Rand has a "body swap" I'm gonna protest.

Me too. I like the fact that he's Aiel, that's part of his identity. He will loose that uniqueness if the swap is carried out.

 

Rand dying is probably a good idea. The world doesn't need him anymore and I don't think he wants to be needed.

 

But his children does. I would assume most of the fathers here would agree being a daddy is a HUGE job in itself.

 

I personally don't want him to die for good. He deserves some happiness for what he does for the world. But, if that is how the wheel weaves then there is no stopping it. :sad:

 

I'm almost afraid to read the next book. It's going to be a tear jerk-er.

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To me, it sounds like something you'd see in a cheesy sci-fi movie from the 70s. It doesn't seem... fitting in the series for them to swap bodies.

 

 

Yes!

 

 

But his children does.

Heh, if Aviendha's visions are any indicator, they need him most of all! They need a spanking or two!

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Rand dieing or not dieing is a tricky proposition. Fantasy story arcs generally end on a positive note to give the majority of readers a sense of satisfaction and completion. Rand could die and the story could still manage a satisfying conclusion if handled properly. I seriously doubt the ending of the story will be a cliffhanger or it ends in darkness.

 

Take the The Dark Tower series. I've read King since I was in Junior High. I like his work. I really enjoyed the characters and world of the Dark Tower. I understand King's reasoning for ending the series the way he did. It was certainly not a cookie cutter ending and I respect that decision. However as a reader I personally found no real resolution in the ending given. My friends who read it didn't end up thrilled with it either. I know some liked it, but it was certainly polarizing. I will reread a series from time to time, but I'm not sure whether I will pick up the Dark Tower again knowing that the end, to me, isn't really a meaningful conclusion. I don't see the Wheel of Time going for a controversial conclusion.

 

I think the Wheel of Time for better or for worse will end up with a fairly standard fantasy epic ending. Some characters dead (though probably not many). But overall on a positive note. I also think that Harriet, Brandon and company will consider future projects in this world. For that to happen there must be a conclusion that allows it to be possible.

 

My predication is that most of the major characters come through it. Perrin ruling in the Two Rivers and possibly Saldaea with Faile (which would mean Devram and Tenobia are toast). Matt and Tuon are off to reclaim Seandar. Elayne, Min, and Avi all have enough foreshadowing that we're pretty sure they make it. Elayne ruling in Andor. Min sticking with Rand. Avi will be helping the Aiel have a purpose post TG. Rand will either retire into obscurity or head up the effort to reestablish something like the Aes Sedai of old. Moraine and Thom may be married prior to TG and either make it or not. Though with Moraine JUST being brought back they'll probably survive. If they do I could see both retiring. Nynaeve and Lan will probably make it through to rebuild Malkieri. The rest may or may not make it.

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My predication is that most of the major characters come through it. Perrin ruling in the Two Rivers and possibly Saldaea with Faile (which would mean Devram and Tenobia are toast). Matt and Tuon are off to reclaim Seandar. Elayne, Min, and Avi all have enough foreshadowing that we're pretty sure they make it. Elayne ruling in Andor. Min sticking with Rand. Avi will be helping the Aiel have a purpose post TG. Rand will either retire into obscurity or head up the effort to reestablish something like the Aes Sedai of old. Moraine and Thom may be married prior to TG and either make it or not. Though with Moraine JUST being brought back they'll probably survive. If they do I could see both retiring. Nynaeve and Lan will probably make it through to rebuild Malkieri. The rest may or may not make it.

Really? 'Cause I've already decided Nyneave and Lan won't live through TG. It's safe to assume that Mat and Tuon survive, though. I think Rand will die, but live again. Perhaps Nyneave will have something to do with his resurrection, before she...y'know, bites the dust. Perrin and Egwene I'm not sure about, they'll probably live though. Elayne...she'll probably live too, because her babies have to be born and all, and I doubt that'll happen before the end of the series. maybes she'll die child birth or something...please?

 

Who else....hmm, oh, right. I'm still betting on Talmanes not making it. Mat's friends seem to have a nasty habit of dying, heh.

 

Anyway. I seriously doubt Rand will die for good in the end. I was reeaaaly hoping he would, until his whole VOG epiphany thing, now I'm okay with him not bleeding to death on them rocks, though I still wouldn't mind if he did.

 

Oh! And the Dark One. Can't forget him! I hope Fain somehow kills him, and takes his place, but since that probably won't happen, I don't think he'll be killed...ever.

Edited by Child Bahkbar

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Really? 'Cause I've already decided Nyneave and Lan won't live through TG. It's safe to assume that Mat and Tuon survive, though. I think Rand will die, but live again. Perhaps Nyneave will have something to do with his resurrection, before she...y'know, bites the dust. Perrin and Egwene I'm not sure about, they'll probably live though. Elayne...she'll probably live too, because her babies have to be born and all, and I doubt that'll happen before the end of the series. maybes she'll die child birth or something...please?

 

Who else....hmm, oh, right. I'm still betting on Talmanes not making it. Mat's friends seem to have a nasty habit of dying, heh.

 

Anyway. I seriously doubt Rand will die for good in the end. I was reeaaaly hoping he would, until his whole VOG epiphany thing, now I'm okay with him not bleeding to death on them rocks, though I still wouldn't mind if he did.

 

Oh! And the Dark One. Can't forget him! I hope Fain somehow kills him, and takes his place, but since that probably won't happen, I don't think he'll be killed...ever.

 

It could go either way. But from my standpoint Lan's character has always seen nothing but death for himself. That's been his predicted fate since we learned who he was. My guess is that he'll end up with a happy ending simply because it goes against established expectations. Of the major characters, I'd see Egwene as one likely to die. Probably taking Gawyn with her.

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Until the DO hacks it, that is.. or just pulls the plug!

 

So, the Wheel of Time is Star Ocean 3?!

 

 

Also, I don't think I have won again, Lews Therin was the Dark One. It seemed a lotre like Ishamael's schtick.

 

Besides, if it was the Dark One, wouldn't it have been

I HAVE WON AGAIN, LEWS THERIN

 

Since clearly the Dark One belives that capslock is the Cruise Control for Cool.

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Until the DO hacks it, that is.. or just pulls the plug!

 

So, the Wheel of Time is Star Ocean 3?!

 

 

Also, I don't think I have won again, Lews Therin was the Dark One. It seemed a lotre like Ishamael's schtick.

 

Besides, if it was the Dark One, wouldn't it have been

I HAVE WON AGAIN, LEWS THERIN

 

Since clearly the Dark One belives that capslock is the Cruise Control for Cool.

 

Got to agree with my fellow new Band member here - I always thought that line was from Ishamael! :baalzamon:

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Really? 'Cause I've already decided Nyneave and Lan won't live through TG. It's safe to assume that Mat and Tuon survive, though. I think Rand will die, but live again. Perhaps Nyneave will have something to do with his resurrection, before she...y'know, bites the dust. Perrin and Egwene I'm not sure about, they'll probably live though. Elayne...she'll probably live too, because her babies have to be born and all, and I doubt that'll happen before the end of the series. maybes she'll die child birth or something...please?

 

Who else....hmm, oh, right. I'm still betting on Talmanes not making it. Mat's friends seem to have a nasty habit of dying, heh.

 

Anyway. I seriously doubt Rand will die for good in the end. I was reeaaaly hoping he would, until his whole VOG epiphany thing, now I'm okay with him not bleeding to death on them rocks, though I still wouldn't mind if he did.

 

Oh! And the Dark One. Can't forget him! I hope Fain somehow kills him, and takes his place, but since that probably won't happen, I don't think he'll be killed...ever.

 

It could go either way. But from my standpoint Lan's character has always seen nothing but death for himself. That's been his predicted fate since we learned who he was. My guess is that he'll end up with a happy ending simply because it goes against established expectations. Of the major characters, I'd see Egwene as one likely to die. Probably taking Gawyn with her.

Eh, sure. Lan would live happily if they both survived. But think about it, hes already more than 20 years older than her, he can't have more than 50-60 years left in him(and that's being generous) Nyneave, on the other hand, is only twenty-six! And she'll probably go on living for at least 300 years, and that's with the oaths. He'll be dead before she's even almost middle aged. She'll spend the vast majority of her life alone. Who knows, she might even forget about him eventually. The only way around this rather sad ending for them(Nyneave, anyway) is either for both of them to die, and maybe become heroes of the horn, or for Nyneave to find a way to extend Lan's life.

 

Egwene, well, I hope she dies. But I don't see it happening. I think she'll change, at least.

 

 

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