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Egwene ugh


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She did it to cover herself and thus there was no need to get through to Nynaeve making your arguments moot.

Unless you are also saying that it's ok to bully others , just to get your way (in this case, the "noble" cause was for Egg to avoid a spanking).

 

Looking at how they met, Egwene was disguised and I think she meant to be disguised to teach Nynaeve a lesson about being careful. Unfortunately, Nynaeve also gave her an excuse to overreact by attempt to ask if she had permission. Egwene just went overboard in her reaction.

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She did it to cover herself and thus there was no need to get through to Nynaeve making your arguments moot.

Unless you are also saying that it's ok to bully others , just to get your way (in this case, the "noble" cause was for Egg to avoid a spanking).

 

Looking at how they met, Egwene was disguised and I think she meant to be disguised to teach Nynaeve a lesson about being careful. Unfortunately, Nynaeve also gave her an excuse to overreact by attempt to ask if she had permission. Egwene just went overboard in her reaction.

Did you happen to miss this post by chance ?

I'd just quote from her own thoughts what Egwene's goal was during the meeting with Nynaeve in TAR when she summoned the brutes to abuse her "friend":

 

TFOH, Ch.15

 

She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth. And she had been so sure that Nynaeve would find out anyway—the woman was quite capable of turning her in and saying it was for her own good—that all she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong.

 

Note that the summoning of the two brutes happened right after Nynaeve started questioning Egwene on whether the Wise Ones have allowed Egwene to come on her own in TAR. Egwene wanted to distract Nynaeve without telling an outright lie, so she gave that horribly hypocritical lecture on the danger of TAR and summoned the two brutes. She wanted to cover up her lies to the WO, not to teach Nynaeve about the dangers of TAR.

Kinda blows that that argument of your out of the water, no?

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I have done a reread a couple of weeks ago and egwene's metamorphosis is quite outstanding.

 

from this:

 

He hated more than her tone. She was right, and he hated that too. He was not about to

admit she was, though, not to her, and searching for a way to retreat, he saw Egwene

coming out of the village with two dozen or more Aes Sedai, most wearing fringed

shawls. Or rather, she came, and they followed. Head held high, she looked straight

ahead, that striped stole hanging about her neck. The others strolled along behind her in

little clumps. Sheriam, wearing the blue Keeper’s stole, was talking with Myrelle and a

bluff-faced Aes Sedai who managed to look motherly. Except for Delana, he recognized

none of the others – one had gray hair in a bun; how old did Aes Sedai have to be for

their hair to go completely gray or white? – but they were all talking among themselves,

ignoring the woman they had named Amyrlin. Egwene might as well have been alone;

she looked alone. Knowing her, she was trying very hard to be what they had named her,

and they let her walk alone, with everybody watching.

To the Pit of Doom with them if they think they can treat a Two Rivers woman that way,

he thought grimly.

 

 

to this

 

The Last Battle is here," Egwene said. " I will not withdraw my proposal.

Either you will stand now, or you will be known—through all

time—as one of those who refused. At the dusk of an Age, can you not

stand for openness and Light? Will you not—for all of our sakes—make it

impossible for a meeting of the Hall to be called without your presence? To

leave any out means the possibility that you w i l l be left out."

The women were silent. One by one, those who were standing sat back

down to prepare for the new vote.

"Who will stand for this motion?" Egwene asked.

They stood. Blessedly, they stood—one at a time, slowly, reluctantly.

But they did it. Every one of them.

 

You can hate her or love her to your heart's content. But you will respect her. And the best part is still yet to come.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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Actually, Elan, it is every reader's choice whether or not to respect a character. And for many of us, her Mary Sue-ish triumphs don't compensate adequately for her dubious methods and attitudes.

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Kinda blows that that argument of your out of the water, no?

 

the woman was quite capable of turning her in and saying it was for her own good—that all she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong.

Bolding mine.

 

Yes, she was trying to get out of it but also trying to keep Nynaeve focused on what she was doing wrong so she could correct it, is acceptable for me. Nynaeve may be stronger in the OP but Egwene is stronger in the dream world (see Mesaana). Keeping Nynaeve alive and whole in TAR is of much more significance than getting spanked.

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Actually, Elan, it is every reader's choice whether or not to respect a character. And for many of us, her Mary Sue-ish triumphs don't compensate adequately for her dubious methods and attitudes.

 

ofcourse it's every reader's right to not respect if they so wish. Just as it's my right to say that you SHOULD ALL respect her :tongue:

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Kinda blows that that argument of your out of the water, no?

 

the woman was quite capable of turning her in and saying it was for her own good—that all she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong.

Bolding mine.

 

Yes, she was trying to get out of it but also trying to keep Nynaeve focused on what she was doing wrong so she could correct it, is acceptable for me. Nynaeve may be stronger in the OP but Egwene is stronger in the dream world (see Mesaana). Keeping Nynaeve alive and whole in TAR is of much more significance than getting spanked.

.....Except that she was doing the very same thing herself, didn't care that nyn was doing it wrong as long as she had SOMETHING to throw her off balance and went WAY out of line of enforcing it.

 

 

And the best part is still yet to come.

You mean the part where she is called out on her hypocrisy,manipulations and learns some humility ? Can't wait.

Edited by Zentari
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And the best part is still yet to come.

You mean the part where she is called out on her hypocrisy,manipulations and learns some humility ? Can't wait.

 

 

Sorry but i don't think you will be seeing egwene 'humbled' anytime soon. Just accept the fact that Egwene is Robert jordan's poster child. Even Randsc has accepted that.

 

When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain. Awesome don't you think? :biggrin:

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Sorry but i don't think you will be seeing egwene 'humbled' anytime soon. Just accept the fact that Egwene is Robert jordan's poster child. Even Randsc has accepted that.

All Mary sues are what you might call poster childs,no?

You will find me in full agreement with you here. I can't say I appreciate the forced fake glitter around her however.

When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain. Awesome don't you think? :biggrin:

Troll harder.

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Sorry but i don't think you will be seeing egwene 'humbled' anytime soon. Just accept the fact that Egwene is Robert jordan's poster child. Even Randsc has accepted that.

All Mary sues are what you might call poster childs,no?

You will find me in full agreement with you here. I can't say I appreciate the forced fake glitter around her however.

When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain. Awesome don't you think? :biggrin:

Troll harder.

 

 

It's not trolling if it's the truth :wink:

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.....Except that she was doing the very same thing herself

Sorry, don't understand what you mean by this.

She was in the same place,being heedless of the dangers and to top it all of SHE was warned beforehand.

Edited by Zentari
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Elan - respect need to be earn, she did nothing worth it

Smittyphi - dont take me wrong but I would like to see how You being spanked that way for let say crossing the street on red light,

and coming back to forum sustaining Your opinion.

Elan -

 

"When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain."

Obvious typo :)

You obviously mean:

"When Tuon leash her and put together with Elaida"

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.....Except that she was doing the very same thing herself

Sorry, don't understand what you mean by this.

She was in the same place,being heedless of the dangers and to top it all of SHE was warned beforehand.

 

She's better, a natural talent and can cope with situations in TAR more efficiently than Nynaeve.

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.....Except that she was doing the very same thing herself

Sorry, don't understand what you mean by this.

She was in the same place,being heedless of the dangers and to top it all of SHE was warned beforehand.

 

She's better, a natural talent and can cope with situations in TAR more efficiently than Nynaeve.

Considering that Nyn has no training that's automatically true.How does that change what I said however? Exactly how much more capable was she ? She was a novice in it if you don't remember so you can't say she understands the dangers or that she can resist them either.Neither of them should have been there, HER especially though because she was explicitly told to stay out.

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Actually, Elan, it is every reader's choice whether or not to respect a character. And for many of us, her Mary Sue-ish triumphs don't compensate adequately for her dubious methods and attitudes.

 

ofcourse it's every reader's right to not respect if they so wish. Just as it's my right to say that you SHOULD ALL respect her :tongue:

 

She's only worthy of respect when you compare her to all the other Aes Sedai. When you think about it, the good things she has done are things that any sensible person would do. And there's a heck of a lot of other things she's done/said that aren't very good or sensible, that your average maid could've handled better.

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.....Except that she was doing the very same thing herself

Sorry, don't understand what you mean by this.

She was in the same place,being heedless of the dangers and to top it all of SHE was warned beforehand.

 

She's better, a natural talent and can cope with situations in TAR more efficiently than Nynaeve.

Considering that Nyn has no training that's automatically true.How does that change what I said however? Exactly how much more capable was she ? She was a novice in it if you don't remember so you can't say she understands the dangers or that she can resist them either.Neither of them should have been there, HER especially though because she was explicitly told to stay out.

 

It doesn't change but it's natural (for me) at this point of the book to think that Egwene was going to follow explicit orders. She's a teenager and I can remember how well I was at following my Mom EVERY single time she told me not to do something. :rolleyes: Egwene is 17 here (I think). It's not an excuse but an explanation.

 

As I am a bit of a latecomer to the WoT reading and forums, I can imagine the other Egwene conversations were along these same veins - both sides becoming more entrenched. Steering clear of these from now on but thank you Zentari for making me question myself on Egwene.

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Like I said before, that was not the reason for her act of torture. It was not to teach Nyneave the dangers of the World of Dreams, it was to cover up her own lies that she was allowed to be there. Egwene is not a Wise One, she is an apprentice who can still barely tie her own shoes in the World of Dreams. Amys punished Egwene because she was in the role of an apprentice who consciously chose to learn, then disobeyed a direct order to stay away. Egwene and Nyneave are supposed to be friends, and do not have nearly the same relationship.

 

Look, I never said she did that for the good reasons. I only claimed I understand what made her do it. I also claimed that what she did was right, nevertheless. Compared to Egwene (as far as Egwene knew at least, and she wasn't far from the truth), Nynaeve wasn't much more than a little child playing with fire.

 

Yes there must have been better ways to show her, but probably not faster. Unfortunately for Nynaeve, she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.b She had to be there just when Egwene was about to face her down AND in that mood. Again, she wasn't being fair (far from that) and wasn't being nice, but we get a lot of PoV's from her and she does learn from it/reflect on it and shows that she knows that. What more do you expect?

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Elan - respect need to be earn, she did nothing worth it

Smittyphi - dont take me wrong but I would like to see how You being spanked that way for let say crossing the street on red light,

and coming back to forum sustaining Your opinion.

Elan -

 

"When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain."

Obvious typo :)

You obviously mean:

"When Tuon leash her and put together with Elaida"

 

 

I agree Respect needs to be earned. Therefore you should read KOD and TGS. Egwene has earned that respect. The black ajah hunters, silviana and countless other aes sedai have all changed their views on Egwene. She went from someone who was installed as a puppet amyrlin to a force of nature by the end of TGS. You may not see it. But the aes sedai surely can.

 

As for the second bit, keep dreaming. No one is going to leash the flame of tar valon :biggrin:

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Elan - respect need to be earn, she did nothing worth it

Smittyphi - dont take me wrong but I would like to see how You being spanked that way for let say crossing the street on red light,

and coming back to forum sustaining Your opinion.

Elan -

 

"When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain."

Obvious typo :)

You obviously mean:

"When Tuon leash her and put together with Elaida"

 

 

I agree Respect needs to be earned. Therefore you should read KOD and TGS. Egwene has earned that respect. The black ajah hunters, silviana and countless other aes sedai have all changed their views on Egwene. She went from someone who was installed as a puppet amyrlin to a force of nature by the end of TGS. You may not see it. But the aes sedai surely can.

 

As for the second bit, keep dreaming. No one is going to leash the flame of tar valon :biggrin:

Her status in KOD/TGS was not earned. It was like when she was captured by the tower Aes sedai,she suddenly became a new person. Her character has not developed normally. It's almost like her character grows the same way Ashaman do with Sai'din. Instead of gradually, like most of the other characters, her knowledge and wisdom increase suddenly by leaps and bounds, with no decent explanation. That's why she doesn't deserve the respect. Her current status wasn't earned, it was a gift by none other than Robert Jordan himself.

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Look, I never said she did that for the good reasons. I only claimed I understand what made her do it. I also claimed that what she did was right, nevertheless. Compared to Egwene (as far as Egwene knew at least, and she wasn't far from the truth), Nynaeve wasn't much more than a little child playing with fire.

 

Yes there must have been better ways to show her, but probably not faster. Unfortunately for Nynaeve, she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.b She had to be there just when Egwene was about to face her down AND in that mood. Again, she wasn't being fair (far from that) and wasn't being nice, but we get a lot of PoV's from her and she does learn from it/reflect on it and shows that she knows that. What more do you expect?

 

Dammit, I said I would drop it, but here we are...

 

No, it wasn't the right thing to do even though Egwene was technically right with her hypocritical excuse. Using the threat of rape as a discouragement is disgusting no matter who uses it. So what if it was faster? If anything, that makes it worse; Egwene used torture to prove a point purely out of convenience. That paints her in an even worse light.

 

But all of this 'You shouldn't be in the WOD because you're inexperienced' argument is irrelevant because it was simply a feint for Egwene to cover up her own transgressions. She didn't care one bit about Nyneave being inexperienced, she was simply covering for herself. And Egwene never EVER reflects on it. Please give me some quotes where she directly reflects on this event, because she never apologises to Nyneave or regrets it in her POV to my knowledge. I have the scene in front of me now and it reads as Egwene giggling after the event about how great it was to put Nyneave in her place.

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Look, I never said she did that for the good reasons. I only claimed I understand what made her do it. I also claimed that what she did was right, nevertheless. Compared to Egwene (as far as Egwene knew at least, and she wasn't far from the truth), Nynaeve wasn't much more than a little child playing with fire.

 

Yes there must have been better ways to show her, but probably not faster. Unfortunately for Nynaeve, she was at the wrong place at the wrong time.b She had to be there just when Egwene was about to face her down AND in that mood. Again, she wasn't being fair (far from that) and wasn't being nice, but we get a lot of PoV's from her and she does learn from it/reflect on it and shows that she knows that. What more do you expect?

I expect her not to physically abuse her fiends to cover up her lies. Is that too much to ask?

 

Egwene knew or at least had good reasons to suspect summoning the brutes won't make Nynaeve more careful in TAR. After all, Amys's similar lessons didn't stop Egwene from risking a visit alone almost every night, and Nynaeve is even more stubborn and reluctant to follow orders or warnings. It's mentioned later that Nynaeve was visiting TAR every night (except those once a week occasions when she had to meet Egwene) after her "lesson" until Birgitte was ripped out of TAR, which finally taught Nynaeve the danger of the Dreamworld. Nynaeve didn't hesitate to eavesdrop on the Forsaken on that same night before Moghedien appeared. So if anything, Egwene's lesson made Nynaeve more reckless.

Edited by David Selig
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5) She didn't torture Nynaeve. Sure, Egwene frightened her, but many other people would do the same if others were about to let slip something that would affect them detrimentally. It wasn't really admirable of Egwene, but torture is way out of the scale compared to what Egwene did. I don't even think Nynaeve was hurt physically in any way, although she was scared. As for Nynaeve's AS test, Egwene didn't have much of a choice. As the other testers made the test an awful experience, Egwene would have to do the same or the others would accuse her of being biased in favour of her friend, and she could not do that, not while she was the Amrylin. Come on, the Amrylin is scrutinized much more than a normal AS due to the Amrylin being in a leadership position, she can't seem to favour someone by making her part of the test more lenient than other parts set by other 'supposedly' impartial people...

 

I'm sorry, summoning street toughs and then having almost go through with violently raping Nynaeve isn't torture now? So if someone were about to say something inconvenient to you, you would respond with simulated attempted rape? And Nynaeve is supposed to be someone that Egwene respects and admires? And to top it all of, she later feels PROUD of herself that she's finally 'put Nynaeve in her place'. It was a truly disgusting moment of torture, made worse by the fact that Egwene used it to cover up her own transgressions.

 

As for the Aes Sedai test, intervening when the testers actually are resorting to torture and attempting to make Nynaeve fail with all their might isn't favouritism, it's common damn sense. The test was clearly not impartial and became excessively unfair as time went on. Egwene had a perfectly good reason to stop the test and yet continued on the off chance that stopping it would negatively impact upon her.

 

+1 :)

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Elan - respect need to be earn, she did nothing worth it

Smittyphi - dont take me wrong but I would like to see how You being spanked that way for let say crossing the street on red light,

and coming back to forum sustaining Your opinion.

Elan -

 

"When rand retires after the last battle, the posterchild will assume the leadership of all chanellers alongside Logain."

Obvious typo :)

You obviously mean:

"When Tuon leash her and put together with Elaida"

 

 

I agree Respect needs to be earned. Therefore you should read KOD and TGS. Egwene has earned that respect. The black ajah hunters, silviana and countless other aes sedai have all changed their views on Egwene. She went from someone who was installed as a puppet amyrlin to a force of nature by the end of TGS. You may not see it. But the aes sedai surely can.

 

As for the second bit, keep dreaming. No one is going to leash the flame of tar valon :biggrin:

Her status in KOD/TGS was not earned. It was like when she was captured by the tower Aes sedai,she suddenly became a new person. Her character has not developed normally. It's almost like her character grows the same way Ashaman do with Sai'din. Instead of gradually, like most of the other characters, her knowledge and wisdom increase suddenly by leaps and bounds, with no decent explanation. That's why she doesn't deserve the respect. Her current status wasn't earned, it was a gift by none other than Robert Jordan himself.

 

 

So she has grown too fast, too powerful in a short space of time eh? Would you prefer it then if her arc stretched 5 books of growing instead of 2 then?

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So she has grown too fast, too powerful in a short space of time eh? Would you prefer it then if her arc stretched 5 books of growing instead of 2 then?

That would actually make her story arc much more believable, so yes.

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