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Egwene ugh


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My love for egwene can only be surpassed at seeing the sheer hatred for her amongst our brethren here. I love it! I shall continue to drink in the bitter tears at her continued ascension as the greatest amyrlin ever. Taking names and being a force to be reckoned with.

 

And when the ashaman join up with the aes sedai once the last battle is over she will be the most powerful female ruler in randland. Not nynaeve. not cadsuane. not sorilea. not amys. not moraine. not tuon. not elayne. not faile. But Egwene al Vere. I can hardly wait!

This, I wouldn't be so sure about. Egwene seems set up to play a traitor role, if for no other reason than the Guinevere parallel. However, I think it more likely that she will have something to do with Rand's death (hence the traitor role) and then go on to help save the day anyway (probably something to do with Tel'aran'rhiod).

 

Remember guys...'embrace the pain'. That's Aiel ways. If you want to claim she abandoned them, then make a bloody case for it rather than just spouting off at the mouth about it. This is a debate forum, not high school.

 

I don't know that I would say that she abandons the Aiel "ways" so much as she loses much of her loyalty to them. Look at how things went with the Aiel. She leaves behind the Aes Sedai that she was gung-ho to join to learn from the Aiel. While there, she whole-heartedly takes in their ways, becoming very near Aiel herself. And what does she see? That the Aiel are more honorable people with less scheming and manipulation (not saying there isn't any but it's a far step down from the White Tower) than the Aes Sedai. That they appear to be more competent. That their culture respects them despite the fact that they haven't needed to swear any Oaths. That they appear to be much less rife with Darkfriends (this may or may not be true but it would have to seem that way to Egwene with all her dealings with the Black Ajah). She learned far more from them (as a person, not as a channeler) than she ever did in the 3 or 4 months, if that, that she actually spends in the White Tower.

 

So why is she so determined to leave them and become Aes Sedai? Her dealings with the Aes Sedai should have shown her that most are fools or evil. I would have kept my loyalty and abilities with the Aiel. And while her plan to tie the channeling groups together was far more equatable than I expected, she still clearly expects the White Tower to be at the top of the food chain. But I would have expected her experiences to make her feel differently.

 

I also find it strange how little contact she has with the Wise Ones after she leaves. Amys wouldn't teach her anymore, but she could have used the advice, knowledge, friendship, etc of these intelligent, compentent women that think highly of her. But she nevers even seems to think about using that resource or companionship.

 

I find the way in which Egwene so completely adapts to and becomes whatever group she is around to be a sign of someone that hasn't really figured out who they are and what they want to be. Which is why I find the impressive and indomitable willpower she shows in the later books to be far fetched and unearned for her character.

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She abandoned the Aiel ways after she accepted he punishment. I believe those Aiel virtues left her at some point during her journey through T'A'R.

 

If she abandoned them in T'A'R how did she accept all the punishments in the WT? She continuously thinks of all she learned from the Aiel during those scenes. Anyone who expects her to behave exactly like a Wise One after she becomes the Amyrlin is just not being realistic.

Besides embracing the pain, which wasn't even really a part of her training, she really didn't think of the Aiel, or Ji'e'toh at all, did she? Maybe I just don't remember. I confess I wasn't paying very close attention during those chapters. Really, her attitude towards Suian and Gawyn for "rescuing" her wasn't very Aiel either, imo.

Edited by Child Bahkbar
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My love for egwene can only be surpassed at seeing the sheer hatred for her amongst our brethren here. I love it! I shall continue to drink in the bitter tears at her continued ascension as the greatest amyrlin ever. Taking names and being a force to be reckoned with.

 

And when the ashaman join up with the aes sedai once the last battle is over she will be the most powerful female ruler in randland. Not nynaeve. not cadsuane. not sorilea. not amys. not moraine. not tuon. not elayne. not faile. But Egwene al Vere. I can hardly wait!

This, I wouldn't be so sure about. Egwene seems set up to play a traitor role, if for no other reason than the Guinevere parallel. However, I think it more likely that she will have something to do with Rand's death (hence the traitor role) and then go on to help save the day anyway (probably something to do with Tel'aran'rhiod).

 

Remember guys...'embrace the pain'. That's Aiel ways. If you want to claim she abandoned them, then make a bloody case for it rather than just spouting off at the mouth about it. This is a debate forum, not high school.

 

I don't know that I would say that she abandons the Aiel "ways" so much as she loses much of her loyalty to them. Look at how things went with the Aiel. She leaves behind the Aes Sedai that she was gung-ho to join to learn from the Aiel. While there, she whole-heartedly takes in their ways, becoming very near Aiel herself. And what does she see? That the Aiel are more honorable people with less scheming and manipulation (not saying there isn't any but it's a far step down from the White Tower) than the Aes Sedai. That they appear to be more competent. That their culture respects them despite the fact that they haven't needed to swear any Oaths. That they appear to be much less rife with Darkfriends (this may or may not be true but it would have to seem that way to Egwene with all her dealings with the Black Ajah). She learned far more from them (as a person, not as a channeler) than she ever did in the 3 or 4 months, if that, that she actually spends in the White Tower.

 

So why is she so determined to leave them and become Aes Sedai? Her dealings with the Aes Sedai should have shown her that most are fools or evil. I would have kept my loyalty and abilities with the Aiel. And while her plan to tie the channeling groups together was far more equatable than I expected, she still clearly expects the White Tower to be at the top of the food chain. But I would have expected her experiences to make her feel differently.

 

I also find it strange how little contact she has with the Wise Ones after she leaves. Amys wouldn't teach her anymore, but she could have used the advice, knowledge, friendship, etc of these intelligent, compentent women that think highly of her. But she nevers even seems to think about using that resource or companionship.

 

I find the way in which Egwene so completely adapts to and becomes whatever group she is around to be a sign of someone that hasn't really figured out who they are and what they want to be. Which is why I find the impressive and indomitable willpower she shows in the later books to be far fetched and unearned for her character.

+1 to that

 

Nicely reasoned.

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She abandoned the Aiel ways after she accepted he punishment. I believe those Aiel virtues left her at some point during her journey through T'A'R.

 

If she abandoned them in T'A'R how did she accept all the punishments in the WT? She continuously thinks of all she learned from the Aiel during those scenes. Anyone who expects her to behave exactly like a Wise One after she becomes the Amyrlin is just not being realistic.

Besides embracing the pain, which wasn't even really a part of her training, she really didn't think of the Aiel, or Ji'e'toh at all, did she? Maybe I just don't remember. I confess I wasn't paying very close attention during those chapters. Really, her attitude towards Suian and Gawyn for "rescuing" her wasn't very Aiel either, imo.

The first two paragraphs of Egwene's only chapter in KOD (aside from her small appearance in the prologue):

 

Egwene knew from the start that her strange captivity would be difficult, yet she believed that embracing pain as the Aiel did would be the easiest part. After all, she had been beaten severely when she paid her toh to the Wise Ones for lying, strapped by one after another in turn, so she had experience. But embracing pain did not mean just giving way to it rather than fighting. You had to draw the pain inside of you and welcome it as a part of you. Aviendha said you must be able to smile and laugh with joy or sing while the worst of the pain still gripped you. That was not so easy at all.

 

That first morning before dawn, in Silviana’s study, she did her best while the Mistress of Novices plied a hard-soled slipper on her bared bottom. She made no effort to stifle her sobs when they came, or later her wordless howls. When her legs wanted to kick, she allowed them to flail until the Mistress of Novices trapped them under one of hers. awkwardly because of Silviana’s skirts, and then she let her toes drum the floor while her head tossed wildly. She tried to draw the pain inside her, to drink it in like breath. Pain was as much a part of life as breathing. That was how the Aiel saw life. But, oh, Light, it hurt!

The Aiel way has been a recurring and overarching theme in Egwene's captivity arc - this is just the beginning. I'm surprised you missed it.

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She abandoned the Aiel ways after she accepted he punishment. I believe those Aiel virtues left her at some point during her journey through T'A'R.

 

If she abandoned them in T'A'R how did she accept all the punishments in the WT? She continuously thinks of all she learned from the Aiel during those scenes. Anyone who expects her to behave exactly like a Wise One after she becomes the Amyrlin is just not being realistic.

Besides embracing the pain, which wasn't even really a part of her training, she really didn't think of the Aiel, or Ji'e'toh at all, did she? Maybe I just don't remember. I confess I wasn't paying very close attention during those chapters. Really, her attitude towards Suian and Gawyn for "rescuing" her wasn't very Aiel either, imo.

The first two paragraphs of Egwene's only chapter in KOD (aside from her small appearance in the prologue):

 

Egwene knew from the start that her strange captivity would be difficult, yet she believed that embracing pain as the Aiel did would be the easiest part. After all, she had been beaten severely when she paid her toh to the Wise Ones for lying, strapped by one after another in turn, so she had experience. But embracing pain did not mean just giving way to it rather than fighting. You had to draw the pain inside of you and welcome it as a part of you. Aviendha said you must be able to smile and laugh with joy or sing while the worst of the pain still gripped you. That was not so easy at all.

 

That first morning before dawn, in Silviana’s study, she did her best while the Mistress of Novices plied a hard-soled slipper on her bared bottom. She made no effort to stifle her sobs when they came, or later her wordless howls. When her legs wanted to kick, she allowed them to flail until the Mistress of Novices trapped them under one of hers. awkwardly because of Silviana’s skirts, and then she let her toes drum the floor while her head tossed wildly. She tried to draw the pain inside her, to drink it in like breath. Pain was as much a part of life as breathing. That was how the Aiel saw life. But, oh, Light, it hurt!

The Aiel way has been a recurring and overarching theme in Egwene's captivity arc - this is just the beginning. I'm surprised you missed it.

But just the Aiel way of dealing with pain. I dunno, maybe it's my already biased view of this "embracing the pain"...thing...that makes me see things this way. I just didn't think it was big part of the Aiel way of thinking. I would have expected Egwene to take more elements of Ji'e'toh with her when she completed her training, not just embracing pain. Seeing how quickly she started scheming like an Aes Sedai, I just thought it was weird(and abnormal) that whether or not what she's doing could be considered "honorable" never even crossed her mind. Or maybe it did, and I've just forgotten.

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personaly, there is not a single female character that provokes a sense of sympathy in me, especially nynaeve/elayne/egwene. They completely and utterly lost any nice feelings i had about them when Mat came to save them in Tear, travelled halfway across the world, risked his life multiple times, and the girls are like pff, gtfo.

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Egwene abandoned the Aiel ways the instant she returned to Salidar. The whole 'Embracing Pain' thing she had going in KOD and TGS is the only thing she retained, and that was because of its value as a political maneuver rather than any affection she had for the Aiel. What happened to the value of meeting obligations (Why hello thar, Mat, Talmanes and everyone else she callously manipulated for her own gain) and of not lieing (And she does twist the truth enough so that it may as well be a lie).

 

As for why many here intensely dislike her, the reasons have already been brought up. The biggest problem is that she has many, many attributes of a Mary Sue. From the very start of the story, she is told how incredibly awesome she is and how she will probably be Amyrlin one day. She is very strong in all five elements and can split her flows fourteen seperate ways. She casually outwits people with decades and in some cases centuries more experience in the art of politics than her. Said people then heap massive amounts of praise upon her. She is respected by the Aiel, the Sea Folk and pretty much everyone else she comes into contact with. She is also a hypocrite to the extreme, expecting others to act in a perfect manner whilst she goes around blackmailing oaths of fealty out of her followers.

 

I feel that all of this would be forgivable by the majority of her detractors except for one crucial point; none of this is ever acknowledged.

 

Egwene has no introspection. She is never criticised. She never dwells on any of her failures. Okay, that's not really fair; she did own up to lying to the Wise Ones, but nothing at all after that. Rand was called out by everyone around him when he screwed up, and even called himself out on multiple occasions. The only thoughts we ever get from Egwene are about the glory of the Tower, the power of the Tower, the Tower, whole and pure, the majesty of the Tower, the Tower that makes thrones dance, etc. And because the above points are not acknowledged in-universe as character flaws, it raises the dreaded Mary Sue label.

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Sometimes I think you guys are just reading different books than I am. Egwene is criticized in the text all the time, not least by our three ta'veren boys.

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Guest PiotrekS

Sometimes I think you guys are just reading different books than I am. Egwene is criticized in the text all the time, not least by our three ta'veren boys.

 

That's why Egwene threads will never disappear :tongue:

 

And that's true, we're really reading different books, because we process them differently.

 

For me, Egwene is very badly written -I completely agree with SuperFade - but I understand that you can see it differently. You buy some things, I don't, and vice versa.

 

And what about the warder advice thing I mentioned? do you really think it is good writing?

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Sometimes I think you guys are just reading different books than I am. . .

 

it's the different eyes, i think. reality is apparently completely subjective, and only exists within our minds via our senses. different eyes, different realities, different books. michael laitman was right. who knew?

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Then when she's with the Aiel, she dumps all the Aes Sedai customs and jumps into doing everything the Aiel way. Then she shifts back again once she's back with the Aes Sedai.

How do you think she could stand the beatings? Using the Aiel way!

 

Agreed, she didn't abandon Aiel ways at all. And sometimes Aiel ways can be quite hypocritical anyway - for example, they think spying is dishonorable, but the Wise Ones have no problem spying on people's dreams.

 

She used her Aiel training to withstand the beatings, yes. But her behavior up to and after that point wasn't really following the basic principles of jie'e'toh, in my opinion. At the end of Towers of Midnight, after finding out that Gawyn was right all along about the assassins and how he came within a hair's breadth of dying to keep her alive after she spent so much effort driving him away, she certainly didn't acknowledge any toh towards him. Even if she didn't say the words, she didn't really act as if she owed him anything. She bonded him, yes, but she was planning on doing that anyways.

 

So, yes, she may have used one of the 'benefits' of living in Aiel society to withstand her pain, but the fundamental lifestyle of their culture and the principles of jie'e'toh, she certainly seemed to abandon quickly enough once she was back in Salidar.

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Egwene didn't "go native" with the Aiel. But she did go to learn from them. If you were to go to school in say Japan you would need to adapt Japanese customs because they have a role in the class room.

 

To learn from the Aiel she had to learn to think like the Aiel.

 

What she did wasn't so much as embracing the Aiel ways as doing what she could to fit in.

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Seems to me that people hate Egwene because she's arrogant and hypocritical? You hate the characters because she has irritating flaws?

 

Well, I didn't like her that much before before TSR. But I began to like her when she was with the Aiel and loved her when she became Amyrlin.

 

I loved her for her arrogance. I actually like arrogance. It makes an interesting character, in my opinion.

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The biggest problem is that she has many, many attributes of a Mary Sue. From the very start of the story, she is told how incredibly awesome she is and how she will probably be Amyrlin one day. She is very strong in all five elements and can split her flows fourteen seperate ways. She casually outwits people with decades and in some cases centuries more experience in the art of politics than her. Said people then heap massive amounts of praise upon her. She is respected by the Aiel, the Sea Folk and pretty much everyone else she comes into contact with. She is also a hypocrite to the extreme, expecting others to act in a perfect manner whilst she goes around blackmailing oaths of fealty out of her followers.

 

<snip> none of this is ever acknowledged.

 

She is never criticised. She never dwells on any of her failures. Okay, that's not really fair; she did own up to lying to the Wise Ones, but nothing at all after that. Rand was called out by everyone around him when he screwed up, and even called himself out on multiple occasions. The only thoughts we ever get from Egwene are about the glory of the Tower, the power of the Tower, the Tower, whole and pure, the majesty of the Tower, the Tower that makes thrones dance, etc. And because the above points are not acknowledged in-universe as character flaws, it raises the dreaded Mary Sue label.

 

All of this, a thousand times over. She is, for all intents an purposes, the "Bella" (from Twilight, not Bela the horse from WoT!) of this series. She must be constantly praised by everyone, her enemies must be destroyed and broken completely, and anyone who meets her must become completely enamored of her. That alone would be bad enough but it seems everyone around her must be dumbed down to ridiculous extremes (a 100 year old woman or older asking a CHILD who treats men like retarded slaves how to handle a Warder? Really??) to show how incredibly awesome she is. It really is enough to make me vomit.

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Seems to me that people hate Egwene because she's arrogant and hypocritical? You hate the characters because she has irritating flaws?

 

Well, I didn't like her that much before before TSR. But I began to like her when she was with the Aiel and loved her when she became Amyrlin.

 

I loved her for her arrogance. I actually like arrogance. It makes an interesting character, in my opinion.

Yes, I dislike characters that have irritating flaws and that I can't identify with. Arrogance disgusts me, and hypocrites disgust me. Practice what you preach and never presume you're better than someone else has always been the way I lived, so I find characters that embody those traits in books to be annoying to the extreme.

Edited by Sleeper
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Guest Emu on the Loose

I agree, possibly for the first time ever, with Mr. Ares. Egwene is very deliberate and willful, and I admire that. One of the reasons Perrin was such a strain on me through the series is that he steadfastly refused to acknowledge his own potential and embrace power. I don't always agree with Egwene's logic or her choices, but in general she's a boon to the Light. And she got to be that way deliberately.

 

Powerful women who challenge male authority figures always tend to draw a crowd of naysayers. That's just life, I guess. Given the information that Egwene has to go on, I think she's done remarkable work so far. Notwithstanding Avi's vision of a dreadful Seanchan future, I see Egwene as a leading candidate to be one of the just leaders of the world in the aftermath of the Last Battle.

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All i can say is that i hope she doesn't stay in a position of power until the end beacuse i DO beleive she is a good leader and is very capable but if she has her way the world will be back to bowing and scraping to the white tower where the tower in NO WAY deserves any bowing or scraping they as bad as the forsaken when it comes to arrogance.

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I agree, possibly for the first time ever, with Mr. Ares. Egwene is very deliberate and willful, and I admire that. One of the reasons Perrin was such a strain on me through the series is that he steadfastly refused to acknowledge his own potential and embrace power. I don't always agree with Egwene's logic or her choices, but in general she's a boon to the Light. And she got to be that way deliberately.

 

Powerful women who challenge male authority figures always tend to draw a crowd of naysayers. That's just life, I guess. Given the information that Egwene has to go on, I think she's done remarkable work so far. Notwithstanding Avi's vision of a dreadful Seanchan future, I see Egwene as a leading candidate to be one of the just leaders of the world in the aftermath of the Last Battle.

Oh please, don't make this an argument about "she's a woman, her critics are sexist male pigs!" (I was drawing an inference there). I and others have made perfectly valid reasons for our dislike of her, it has nothing to do with gender politics.

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Guest Emu on the Loose

Oh please, don't make this an argument about "she's a woman, her critics are sexist male pigs!" (I was drawing an inference there). I and others have made perfectly valid reasons for our dislike of her, it has nothing to do with gender politics.

 

There's plenty of room to criticize Egwene without resorting to sexism, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and it's a problem. I wasn't singling out any one person in particular, and, besides, it's not about any one person.

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Where in the blazes did her absurd love for the tower come from?

 

The most defining characteristic of Egwene is that she doesn't go halfway. If she goes for a cause, she dedicates herself fully.

Wisdom apprentice, Novice, Wise One apprentice, Aes Sedai, Amyrlin - all the same.

She always convinces herself that's what she wants, that she wants it fully and be the best in it. Also involves integrating said group's viewpoint fully.

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Oh please, don't make this an argument about "she's a woman, her critics are sexist male pigs!" (I was drawing an inference there). I and others have made perfectly valid reasons for our dislike of her, it has nothing to do with gender politics.

 

There's plenty of room to criticize Egwene without resorting to sexism, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em, and it's a problem. I wasn't singling out any one person in particular, and, besides, it's not about any one person.

I'm sure there are a couple people out there who don't want Egwene to be successful because she's a woman, but I honestly think the number is quite a bit smaller than you think. Let's face it, if someone's a male chauvinist they've probably quit this series already in rage :biggrin:

 

Simply put, I get tired of seeing logical arguments discounted as sexist ramblings. I know you weren't necessarily doing that, but it seems way to easy for people to discount character criticisms as flaws of the criticizer and not necessarily valid points directed at the criticized.

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all I have to say is that I hate egwene for a few reasons

 

1) she is treated like a perfect little princess by nearly everyone she meets

2) she adopts and abandons cultural ways like a shift with no lasting impact

3) she wants everyone to bow before her and her 'awesomeness'

4) she 'knows it all'

5) she tortures her friends for her own benefit

6) if someone disagrees with her she often will chalk it up to taveren influence (in the case of nyn or elayne or anyone else who has been around rand prior to reporting in)

7) during her capture in the WT she often critizes Elaida for things when she has done the same (primarily having oaths of obedience from sisters), and plans out how to do the same as elaida was saying (primarily how to 'control' rand)

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all I have to say is that I hate egwene for a few reasons

 

1) she is treated like a perfect little princess by nearly everyone she meets

2) she adopts and abandons cultural ways like a shift with no lasting impact

3) she wants everyone to bow before her and her 'awesomeness'

4) she 'knows it all'

5) she tortures her friends for her own benefit

6) if someone disagrees with her she often will chalk it up to taveren influence (in the case of nyn or elayne or anyone else who has been around rand prior to reporting in)

7) during her capture in the WT she often critizes Elaida for things when she has done the same (primarily having oaths of obedience from sisters), and plans out how to do the same as elaida was saying (primarily how to 'control' rand)

 

As Terez mentioned earlier could everyone please provide quotes when making accusations. I am very interested to see the passages that would make people form strong opinions such as she is treated like a princess by everyone(are they often forced drugs and beaten?), expects everyone to bow and performs torture just to name a few. I really would enjoy reading a quote for each of the points made above so I can go back and check out those passages.

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